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Vreel Kudarin
25 October 2002, 12:52 PM
I was wondering whether anyone else has thought about Palpatine's statement (in Episode II) that the Republic had "stood for a thousand years". When I first heard this in the cinema I was annoyed at the blatant continuity error - according to the EU, the Old Republic stood for over 5,000 years. 5,000 years ago the early Republic settled the Core Worlds and pushed out into the Inner Rim and Expansion Region.

Approx. 1,000 years before Episode II, The Old Republic's Army of Light fought Sith Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness on Ruusan. Both forces were decimated by Kaan's 'thought bomb', but the battle was viewed as a Jedi and Republic victory. The Sith had once again been vanquished.

One idea I had to explain Palpatine's statement was that the Old Republic was reformed 1,000 years prior to Episode II, and that Palpatine was refering to the current incarnation of the galactic government, but I know of no reference to such a reformation.

Also, one politician (I think it was Sio Bibble) claimed that there hadn't been a "full-scale war since the formation of the Republic", which is also incorrect. A prime example of a major war was the Great Sith War around 4,000 years prior to Episode II.

Either everyone in the Prequel era is really bad at history, or George Lucas doesn't care much for the Expanded Universe, upon which so many of his loyal fans depend. Does anyone have an explanation for this apparent continuity error/massive oversight?

Reverend Strone
25 October 2002, 01:22 PM
Here's another thread in which this topic was discussed. Some good reading here. It's certainly a gray area in terms of canon from what little information we have to draw from. Enjoy-

http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7350

Codym
25 October 2002, 01:36 PM
I think I agree with the "Figure of speech" explaination, either that or George realised that the ammount of time suggested in earlier literature has wholy unrealistic - even for space fantasy.

As for the expanded universe, George's opinion is well known - hell, much of Episode I was a royal (and in most cases well deserved) one-figured salute to the EU in general, and a certain Kevin Anderson in particular. As it was, peoples feelings or not, the EU knew it would be changed conciderably once George did the prequels. The fact that they are desperately trying to keep it all in cannon is a nasty and confusing mistake (especially Dark Horse's Sith stuff,) and the should give up the ghost and name the post-Zahn novels the longest Infinities series ever.

Vreel Kudarin
25 October 2002, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the link. I can understand that Lucas has a right to write (possibly) the world's greatest saga as he wishes, but it seems a little insensitive of him to tread so roughly over the work lovingly crafted by so many brilliant authors. Especially when he must be receiving some tidy royalties from their sojurns into His universe. It would seem sensible to build upon the terrific 'background' fiction, rather than risk alienating fans who love the tapestry as a whole.

Codym
25 October 2002, 02:15 PM
I can understand you sentiments.

The problem is, most of what George has contridicted had to be done, for the sake of storytelling. Others, the actual authors were not paying attention (like the spirits and fading away - the key element was Vader's surprise, something everyone other than George seemed to overlook.) Some of it, like the anti-Anderson stuff, was his way to show his displeasure without saying "this stuff is crap," and everything he did came with a reasoned, logical explanation. He cares for his fans, but needs to tell his story. And as I stated, every author knew this would happen, whever it be accidental or on purpose. Star Trek has been playing this game for far longer, and with less success.

Another thing to remember is George is an extremely busy man who does not live and breath Star Wars 24/7. The ammount of Expanded Universe stuff out there is almost impossible for dedicated fans to keep track of, let alone one man who has to manage a business, write and make movies and raise kids. As it is, I think he is doing a good job.

Fred Getce
25 October 2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Vreel Kudarin
Thanks for the link. I can understand that Lucas has a right to write (possibly) the world's greatest saga as he wishes, but it seems a little insensitive of him to tread so roughly over the work lovingly crafted by so many brilliant authors. Especially when he must be receiving some tidy royalties from their sojurns into His universe. It would seem sensible to build upon the terrific 'background' fiction, rather than risk alienating fans who love the tapestry as a whole.

Well lets put this into a perspective we can all relate too.

Vreel you create a NPC for your campaign which is well thought out and decide to post it on the SWRPGNETWORK. About a month goes, and a gamer emails you, or calls you, or even snail mails you saying you can no longer use your NPC in your campaign because he was killed in his, and he wants you to stick to the "EU" of his campaign he created, so your NPC is dead. Now would you say "Alright, I will" and completely rewrite your campaign minus the NPC YOU created? Or would you say "Really well in my camaign he is not dead and I will continue to run it like that, thank you very much"?

To me this is a simple matter of fan boy whining. :D Now I am not trying to flame you or anything just that after about 250-300 posts where people moan and groan about a SW movie trampling all over the EU compared to a novel or comic you begin to get tired of the barrage of questions. Oh well.

To lighten up the post, I have thought about the stuff in EPII. I have come up with some bascially common sense ideas about the quotes. Even in our own history we have had governments change hands or re-establish themselves when they grow, so I would think Palpatine means that the current Old Republic has been around for a 1,000 years. Probably the current size of the explored galaxy and the member worlds, the citizens and the technological as well as moral achievements of her people have been this way for one thousand years and counting. Before this they may have been smaller with less explored space and member worlds. Here is a plain example.

Old Republic as of 1,000+ years before EPII
Member Worlds 285,679,432
Citizens ~577 Quadbillion
Explored space 57,896 lightyears
This requires ~14 admendments to the Republic Charter, Constitution and Declaration of Peace which are done within 10 years. Now they move along with new achievments and exploration.

As of EPII
Member Worlds 886,575,234
Citizens: ~978 Quadtrillion
Explored space: 88,903 lightyears

This is a whole new form of the Old Republic with new member worlds, more people and technology with greater esthetics from a thousand beings who have added to the beauty and nobility of the Old Republic to a point where it no longer resembles what it was in the beginning. It is therefore consider to be a whole new Republic (they may have actually started over with their years like we did from BC to AD to commemerate the new status).

However the other one about not being a full scale war since the Formation of the Republic probably means more than just a skirmish but a full blown war involving EVERYBODY (the entire galaxy at war; mass producing weapons of war and drafting young people for war and so on).

So you could still have the EU in you campaign (I do, with a little trim here and a little trim there), so have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

;)

Codym
25 October 2002, 03:09 PM
It's probably also worth mentioning that "1000 years" seems to be the standard "long time ago" phrase in the Star Wars prequels. The rise and fall of the Sith, the last Republic war, etc. While some will insist that these events are all connected, it is more than likely all different events that took place in a time of general upheavel (George has stated that the rise of the Sith was pretty much a non-event - too busy killing each other to worry the galaxy) that gets lumped together for the sake of simplifying a rather complex history.

darkvet
25 October 2002, 03:43 PM
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was Obi-Wan's comment to Luke in ANH. Something along the lines of "For a thousand generations, the jedi kept the peace of the Old Republic."

Now to my understanding a generation is 30 years. So that would mean the jedi and the republic have been around 30 tmes longer than palpatine stated. Either that or the Sith are really really bad at math.

Any takes on this angle?

Codym
25 October 2002, 04:35 PM
See the like the good Reverend posted above ... they discuss this factor a lot.

Vreel Kudarin
26 October 2002, 02:24 AM
Thanks for all the opinions. I think the EU is doing an admirable job of incorporating any complications arising from the Prequels, and I feel Star Wars would be greatly diminished if all there was to it were the films; especially considering the (in my opinion) inferior quality of Episode II's dialogue and scene ordering/cuts. Lucas may have the vision, but he can't write a screenplay like Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan, or direct like Irvin Kershner.

Reed
4 November 2002, 06:55 AM
I own the Star Wars Essential Chronology book and in it there is all the EU and movies in one big long time line. In it there is nothing that indicates any contradictions.

Anyways, in the chronology it describes 1000 years before the Rise of the Empire was a time when the Republic was going through a time of restoration after the destruction of the Sith. During this period, the Hydian Way was discovered (The Hydian Way is a hyperspace lane that spans all the way across the galaxy). The Hydian Way heralded in the discovery of billions of systems that became part of the Republic. My guess is that Palpatine is referring to the reformation and HUGE expansion of the Republic after the Sith were supposedly destroyed. During that time was when everything that we see in the movies was formed. The much more strict Jedi Code was probably formed during this time, the billions of member worlds that we see joined the Republic probably during this time. The Republic and the Jedi Order were both made anew after the Sith's supposed destruction on Ruusan.

Thats my thoughts, and I think its a reasonable argument.

Vreel Kudarin
4 November 2002, 09:52 AM
Yes, that's what I'd assumed was the explanation for the "1,000 years" from old Palpy. Thanks for the info on the discovery of the Hydian Way, I'm currently running a campaign based along it.

Master Dao Rin
4 November 2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by darkvet
Now to my understanding a generation is 30 years. So that would mean the jedi and the republic have been around 30 tmes longer than palpatine stated. Either that or the Sith are really really bad at math.

Any takes on this angle?

Well, I think a human "cycle" is birth to reproductive capability, so a human "generation" would be about 12-15 years.

However, you could look at it this way: every year is a new generation to someone, right? People in your age will be uniquely affected by events that will be different from the events that previous years have experienced, precisely because they've got one or more years wisdom on you.

So, you can say every year is a generation, and thus Kenobi's line is technically correct ... from a certain point of view. :D