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View Full Version : Daeshara'Cor Was Right: Two Eyes of Palpatine



Dan Kyrinov
26 October 2002, 08:14 PM
Alrighty, this is kind of an obscure topic, but it suggests a superweapon is loose somewhere in the galaxy, and maybe still available for the taking against the Yuuzhan Vong, in NJO.

In Children of the Jedi, there is the Eye of Palpatine, big, bad, capable of razing planets. Callista, Luke, Cray, Nichos, and C-3P0 manage to blow the thing up.

In The New Rebellion, there is a woman named Femon, a character who despite her good background story is killed very quickly in the book. Her planet was razed six years prior to the book by the Eye of Palpatine, killing her family.

Discrepancy. I've done extensive reading in the book as part of the New Republic Era sourcebook project, and I can say for certain that the Eye of the Palpatine never razed anything in that time period. It picked up troops (or at least, picked up random people who it thought were troops) and then headed for target prime: Belsavis. But it did not kill Belsavis or any other worlds.

Femon's world isn't ever named. Femon tells us that the New Republic stopped Eye of Palpatine in the end. Sure, maybe she heard that it had been destroyed over Belsavis and assumed it was the same, but other evidence points elsewhere. The logical explanation is that Femon's world was hit by a second Eye.

Daeshara'Cor in Dark Tide thinks the Emperor has two Eyes. Though the dark side trip of her life never found the second Eye, the first one was hidden pretty darn well. Was her guessing and theory correct? Is there a second Eye? I believe there is, and that Mike Stackpole opened up a door for other authors to discover that as well when he mentioned it in Dark Tide.

Will we see this second battlemoon? Who's got it? Thoughts?

Jim Williams
27 October 2002, 04:51 AM
Dan,
You of all people should know that Barris seized control of the second Eye of Palpatine like Callista did with the first!

Seriously, here's my thoughts....
I think the New Reb author made an incorrect assumption that you and others have noted, questioned, and decided to capitalize on because it opens up a story arc idea.

I have no idea who should have it, but definitely someone evil enough to raze a planet. I hope to see the second Eye, Callista, and the missing Black Fleet ships by the end of the NJO.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
27 October 2002, 08:08 AM
Jim, you better stop saying things like that or people will start drooling on their keyboards.

ElfWord
27 October 2002, 01:37 PM
As a bit of a superweapon freak myself, I hope to see a second Eye of Palpatine somewhere in the NJO as well. If anyone has it, it's probably the Empire. Although it would be rather interesting to see either Han or Lando and his droids take the thing over. Just because something has the power to raze a planet doesn't neccessarily mean it has to be used that way. Instead it could be used to wipe out a YV fleet, like Centerpoint was used for.
I do hope that somewhere in this intricate examination of the force that the NJO authors are writing there will be a meaningful discovery, something which can be used to give Callista her force powers back.
The only real problem I would have with Callista coming back is that it would invalidate some of the work that the author of Planet of Twilight did. For those of you haven't read, there was a kind of side story of a man named Legius who was in love with Admiral Daala, and she him much earlier in their lives. At the end of the story, they were reunited together, after Legius had told Luke a poem about lovers meeting at journey's end, implying that Luke and Callista would be happily reunited at some point. Now, if they are reuinited in the NJO series, there would be serious tension between Mara Jade, Luke, and Callista.
There are a lot of options out there, and no matter what twists the authors decide to put on things, I just hope they make them well written and believable.

Jim Williams
27 October 2002, 06:02 PM
Tension between Mara and Callista...yesssss. I'd like to see Callista KILL Mara Jade (Skywalker).

Okay, we need to see a turn-about where, JUST ONCE, a superweapon succeeds at what it was supposed to do (After all, the Death Star wasn't really supposed to destroy planets, it was supposed to strike fear in the Rebellion. Which it failed at miserably). I want to see an Eye of Palpatine come in and WHOOP Vong butt. Not to mention the idea of a weapon of terror being used in the cause of freedom and life.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
27 October 2002, 06:44 PM
I'd go with Mara winning, though she would lose at least a limb.

Even if the New Republic found a Super Weapon they probably wouldn't get to use it for some reason or another.

Dan Kyrinov
27 October 2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Jim Williams
Dan,
You of all people should know that Barris seized control of the second Eye of Palpatine like Callista did with the first!

(laughs) That's why she hasn't called me lately!

If the New Republic found it, well, Frobi might be right, it might get pasted before it could be used. Like Han said about the Nova Colossus, Galaxy Destructor, and Nostril of Palpatine, it is the Empire's way to build superweapons that will fall apart under pressure. But if someone with the forethought to get there and install hangar doors on it found an Eye of Palpatine, whoa. In Traitor, they talk about a planet-buster on Coruscant... you never know, the Eye would be a good way for some Vongcidal person to take out the YV homeworld. With Jacen sending the camp ships out, and the planet fully shaped, there won't be any survivors left by now. Wonder what happened to Baljos Arnjak?

I think Callista could end up back in her full Jedi glory. If Jacen and Vergere were right about there being no dark side, then Callista should be able to realize that as well, and she can still use the Force if she is using the 'dark side.' (Yes, I am a follower of the Potenium heresy.) She might yey find a way back to the Force.

BrianDavion
27 October 2002, 10:47 PM
Calista and Luke I suspect are over each other. if Calista ever returned I doubt she'de immediatly start trying to win luke's heart

strensk
28 October 2002, 11:42 AM
A superweapon would be a pretty interesting plot line. However, I like the fact that right now they don't have one.

I think this fight should be won inch by inch, life by life. I think it adds more to the struggle.

Nova Spice
28 October 2002, 05:42 PM
You know it might be feasible that a second "Eye" exists, but I think the NJO already has its staple superweapon in the form of Centerpoint Station. I personally don't want to see another superweapon enter the mix, but I suppose if the right author came up with a logical and cool scenario that wasn't far-fetched, I might not be opposed to the discovery of the Second Eye of Palpatine. :p

Until then I suppose we'll just have to imagine "what if?" :D

By the way, nice theory Dan. ;)

Jim Williams
28 October 2002, 08:33 PM
Hey, it makes sense the Emperor would have two eyes, er I mean Eyes.

Dan Kyrinov
28 October 2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Until then I suppose we'll just have to imagine "what if?" :D

Well, actually, I can feel the fanfiction blood in me pumping. NJO Jedi Dan Kyrinov (a future fanfic character in something I'm working on) encounters the Eye part Two and meets a lonely Force Spirit, Bariss Offee, who spins a tale of the Old Republic as Kyrinov works to destroy the Eye. Just kidding.

Thinking of Centerpoint Station as the major NJO superweapon is a good way to go. I'm still wondering how the heck the Vong haven't figured out it's stopped working. Thrackan Sal-Solo is Peace Brigade, for heaven's sakes! Maybe this is explianed in Ylesia (which I do not have.)

Strensk, I think your thoughts about winning or losing life by life, inch by inch, is also pretty astute. It might cheapen the victory if the Eye swoops in to save the day when the real work has been done by the Republic and the Jedi troops, pilots, and others.

Jim Williams
29 October 2002, 04:42 AM
I didn't imagine an Eye saving the day, just being a part of one victory against the Vong. Of course, Centerpoint did work. It just worked too well.

I wonder if there will be a Death Staresque assault on some key Vong facility...if it's done right, it may pay homage to ANH without being too obvious.

Hmmmm, that just made me think that it would be cool to see a Vong desperate assault on Centerpoint or the second Eye succeed because of one heroic YV pilot.

Ardent
29 October 2002, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Dan Kyrinov
Well, actually, I can feel the fanfiction blood in me pumping. NJO Jedi Dan Kyrinov (a future fanfic character in something I'm working on) encounters the Eye part Two and meets a lonely Force Spirit, Bariss Offee, who spins a tale of the Old Republic as Kyrinov works to destroy the Eye. Just kidding.

I was already thinking about whether or not it would be wrong to use a lightsaber to seppuku, Dan. Please don't do that again!


Thinking of Centerpoint Station as the major NJO superweapon is a good way to go. I'm still wondering how the heck the Vong haven't figured out it's stopped working. Thrackan Sal-Solo is Peace Brigade, for heaven's sakes! Maybe this is explianed in Ylesia (which I do not have.)

Well, Centerpoint Station is definitely a superweapon, but it did as much wrong as it did right. Also, the New Republic has its own superweapon, although the Jedi keep "putting it on hold." ;)


Strensk, I think your thoughts about winning or losing life by life, inch by inch, is also pretty astute. It might cheapen the victory if the Eye swoops in to save the day when the real work has been done by the Republic and the Jedi troops, pilots, and others.

I'm not sure the NR Armed Forces will look a gift horse in the mouth, but it will entail at least 17 novels where the Jedi just debate whether or not the Eye should have been used. <glances at the lightsaber again>

Reed
29 October 2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Dan Kyrinov
I think Callista could end up back in her full Jedi glory. If Jacen and Vergere were right about there being no dark side, then Callista should be able to realize that as well, and she can still use the Force if she is using the 'dark side.'

I agree that Callista may make an appearance in the future (I think it would be a good source of conflict between Mara and Callista) but I don't think she'll get her powers back from using the 'dark side'. What Vergere means by there being "no dark side" is that the Force doesn't take sides. The dark side isn't an outside force that takes hold of people. The dark side is in the user, not the Force, the Force only reflects what it finds in the user. There is a dark side, and a light side, and an orange side, and a green side, and blue side... well, you get the idea (I hope). The person using the Force has a dark side. So if Callista were to wield the dark side she would become evil (perhaps that may be a potential future villain). But I do believe that Vergere's revelation would have a major influence on Callista's return to the Force.

ElfWord
29 October 2002, 06:44 PM
Reed, you're a genius! That is an excellent plot idea. Callista goes evil, tries to kill Luke or does something to make it obvious that there is no hope for her, and Mara Jade is forced to kill her in a duel. And although Mara Jade's an awesome character, I'm not completely certain that she would live in the end. After all, in an OOC sense, NJO authors have a history of killing off major characters. Chewbacca, Mon Mothma, Anakin, etc. In an IC sense, girls Luke Skywalker has hooked up with have a history of dying. (i.e. Gariel). Can't wait to see how it all turns out. Keep these ideas going guys, this is giving me some great campaign material!

Dan Kyrinov
29 October 2002, 08:48 PM
Those are good thoughts Reed, and you've got a good grip on the Dark Side concepts we're trying to master. I'm still struggling to expand my head around them, actually. But I still wonder, if Callista can only use the Force when under Dark Side influence (and I agree, it's the dark in her that unlocks it, she has to be angry to use it) if she can't guide that passion, like Jacen when he uses Force Lightning. He's empassioned but self-aware and able to direct it right. Note in Destony's Way he's using a less agressive, non-lethal version. Kind of Force Lightning set to stun. He's pioneering new Force techniques, all because he can guide his emotion and let it fuel him. Callista may not be able to get all her soul into the act, just because her soul has been jumped around too much. So she may never get back control over the Force.

Callista, however, would not make a good future villain. Sure, conflict and drama would abound, but I couldn't believe her as a full killer villain. Her entire life (actually, both of them) have been dedicated to the light. Agitated? Dark? Conflicted? Sure, but not a killer, and not someone who would go after Mara Jade. I think Callista is above jealousy. Though Mara might not be...

Reed
30 October 2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Dan Kyrinov
Callista, however, would not make a good future villain. Sure, conflict and drama would abound, but I couldn't believe her as a full killer villain. Her entire life (actually, both of them) have been dedicated to the light. Agitated? Dark? Conflicted? Sure, but not a killer, and not someone who would go after Mara Jade.

I never said she'd go after Mara. I said conflict, not combat. Conflict doesn't have to be evil versus good, look at all the crap that Fey'lya put everyone through, he wasn't evil and their was no direct combat involved. I just ment there could be an emotional conflict between Mara, Luke, and Callista. You know, Callista walks in the room "Hello Mara, I'm Luke's old love interest," I could feel the tension already.

A villain doesn't have to be evil, or a killer (We've just been conditioned to think that there is only black and white, it's the same with the way lots of people look at the Force). What makes a villain is someone who opposes the protaganist in the story. I think its time to see, instead of some jaded Dark Jedi as a villain, but someone who has grown bitter and isn't evil, just has different views than the protaganists. If Callista became a villain she doesn't have to kill everything, blow up planets, say things like "Evil is good", "Worship me", "In the name of Lucifer...er... the Dark Side spread the blood of the innocent!" I think you get the point. I think Star Wars needs someone to be a non-Darth Vader-esque bad-guy or girl (so I'm not sexist). Even though the Yuuzhan Vong are quite different from the evil Empire (not Palleon's presently neutral Empire), they're still generally evil and twisted. I think a Jedi villain that isn't evil would make things difficult for everyone, especially Luke (if it's Callista). The Jedi would have to question their own ethics. THAT makes for good reading.

Sorry if I sound condescending, I'm just backing my oppinion and mean no disrespect of others' oppinions.

Codym
30 October 2002, 12:37 PM
Reed, I think the word you were looking for is Antagonist, not Villian, but I agree with what you were saying. As it is, the NJO has a character like you discribed - Vergere - but I doubt she got as much book time as the sort of thing you were talking about. I doubt Callista will come back, for the sole reason that Mara seems to have no problems with Luke's former girlfriends (though the fact Luke has brought enough of them up in casual conversation for her to prove she has no problem with them is a little disturbing.)

I think we won't see a superweapon in the NJO other than Centerpoint and the SSD's that keep showing up, simply because the series seems to be about Jedi ethics, and pulling out planet destroyers and galaxy busters is certainly not ethical.

Dan Kyrinov
30 October 2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Reed
I never said she'd go after Mara. I said conflict, not combat.

And I never said you said that. :-) I was commenting on Elfword's thought that Mara might have to kill Callista. It didn't sit well with me. If Callista comes back, conflict (not combat) will follow. Heck, in Darksaber Mara and Callista met, and there was tension over Luke then, even though at that point it was a foregone conclusion it would be Luke and Callista. It would be good reading.


Originally posted by Reed
I think a Jedi villain that isn't evil would make things difficult for everyone, especially Luke (if it's Callista). The Jedi would have to question their own ethics. THAT makes for good reading.

I usually put villain and evil in the same category of synonym, that might have confused you, sorry man. It's just the word villain means 'a wicked and evil person.' If Callista came back, I couldn't handle her as a wicked, evil person, I'd probably put the book down. But the grayer side of her, like you mention, oh yeah, that would be good reading. If you define villain as someone who opposes the hero (I would say antagonist) Callista could be a page-turner.

Reed
31 October 2002, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by Codym
Reed, I think the word you were looking for is Antagonist, not Villian, but I agree with what you were saying. As it is, the NJO has a character like you discribed - Vergere - but I doubt she got as much book time as the sort of thing you were talking about.

I understand what your saying and yes the word is Antagonist, I just tend to associate the two together, same with hero and Protaganist. But I would have to say the Vergere isn't very Antagonistic towards anybody. They question her actions and her methods of teaching but generally she doesn't oppose the main characters. In fact she taught them about the aspect of the Force that the New Jedi Order is lacking in, the Unifying Force. Vergere even taught Luke and Luke did take her teachings to heart. I would say that Vergere is a friend that they just didn't learn to trust.


Originally posted by Codym
I doubt Callista will come back, for the sole reason that Mara seems to have no problems with Luke's former girlfriends

Just because Mara doesn't seem to have any problem with them isn't proof of anything. Has Mara ever been in the presence of an old girlfriend of Luke's since they were married? I don't think so. It's easy to say that you don't mind certain things when they aren't around. Plus, I only said that I think Callista may show up in the future, not during the NJO era. I think if Callista were to never return it would be a major mistake to just brush off a character like that. She may not have to be an Antagonist. I would just like to see a Jedi character that isn't evil that is up against Luke's Jedi, perhaps an overzealous Jensaraai, it would be nice to have more stuff about the Jensaraai.

As for the whole thing about another superweapon showing up before the end of NJO, I don't think that's going to happen. But I do think that there is another Eye, so it may show up sometime after the NJO.

Marusame
31 October 2002, 09:29 AM
I'm sorry, but I've never liked Mara as much as I like Callista. I will worship for all time the author who brings her back. I understand that she won't be with Luke, cuz he's with Mara. I just want that character back.

ElfWord
31 October 2002, 10:01 AM
Here's a thought: Callista as Ben Skywalker's master.
That should be enough to get the ball rolling...

Tem_Starrunner
31 October 2002, 01:47 PM
Well back to the topic

If we're talking about super weapons. New Republic and Imp Remnant both have atleast two sets of Death Star plans. And by rough guess that the that either side may have at least three super weapons in addition to the Death Star Plans. At most they could both have 15 different plans each. Daala took the data from the Maw (two weapons there, Sun Crusher and Death, parsal or complete in addition to what ever else). The New Republic had Bevel Levelisk in custody for a few years and certainly shared his Darksaber plans with the NR and probalby also designed a few more (I don't think he believed in idle hands) before his excusion. In addition Isard gave the NR an alterantive design for the Death Star (which was probable a faulty design which was confermed by Levelisk and fixed).

There are way to many Super weapons and plans floating around as it is. Another Eye of Palpatine might just be possible.

Marusame
2 November 2002, 06:52 PM
Great idea Elfwood, cuz I dun think parents are allowed to teach their children. That rules out Luke and Mara.

ElfWord
3 November 2002, 09:49 AM
Is my name really that hard to get right? Or are you people just taunting me, lol?

Ardent
3 November 2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Marusame
Great idea Elfwood, cuz I dun think parents are allowed to teach their children. That rules out Luke and Mara.

There are no real rules for the NJO Jedi. They're constructing guidelines as they feel out the borders of what they should and shouldn't be doing. There's no "minimum Force potential (aka the Your Force Must Be This Tall to Ride rule)" required to be a Jedi in the NJO era. Just the desire and ability. If a parent wants to take their time to instruct their kids in the ways of the Force, who's Luke to tell them not to? He learned a few tricks from Darth Vader, and had no qualms about teaching Leia how to employ the Force.

Mara has proven herself a very adept Jedi Knight and a competant Jedi Master (I mean, think about it, she taught Jaina "I Outstubborn My Father" Solo), why couldn't she train Ben? ;)

However, it does seem likely that the task of instructing Ben will fall to someone else; very likely to Jacen. Jacen isn't much for the warrior aspect of being a Jedi, teaching seems to be right up his alley.

ElfWord
3 November 2002, 08:44 PM
But Luke did at one point turn a girl away and not train her because she did not have enough discipline to develop her force ability. She had a low amount of force aptitude in the first place. I can't remember her name right now, and I unfortunately don't have the time to look through my books for it.
I do think you're right that although Luke and Mara are more than adequate teachers, Jacen will most likely become Ben's mentor.

Marusame
3 November 2002, 11:15 PM
But Luke did at one point turn a girl away and not train her because she did not have enough discipline to develop her force ability. She had a low amount of force aptitude in the first place. I can't remember her name right now, and I unfortunately don't have the time to look through my books for it.


You're thinking of Tyria Sarkin, from Wraith Squadron. While he did tell her that there wasn't much point to training, he eventually changed his mind she was trained up to Jedi Knight, further proving Ardents point I guess.

And I swear to god I thought I hit an r on your name.

Ardent
4 November 2002, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Marusame
You're thinking of Tyria Sarkin, from Wraith Squadron. While he did tell her that there wasn't much point to training, he eventually changed his mind she was trained up to Jedi Knight, further proving Ardents point I guess.

I can do you one more, Marusame, Tyria is teaching her children herself. ;) I think my points are adequately supported, and am thinking this thread should be turned back the way it came. I'm perfectly willing to discuss the New Jedi Order and more or less anything concerning the Jedi of the period in another thread, however.

Dan, I apologize for having hijacked your thread to prove a couple of points. You can return to discussing ways to involve Barriss Offee in the NJO, and I'll be supportive (of them being ideas, I mean). ;)

Dan Kyrinov
4 November 2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Dan, I apologize for having hijacked your thread to prove a couple of points. You can return to discussing ways to involve Barriss Offee in the NJO, and I'll be supportive (of them being ideas, I mean). ;)

Well, actually, this ain't hijacking any more than Jim and were doing by bringng Bariss up. She is technically Old Republic era. ;-) The Eye of Palpatine is the story of Callista, I like the thread that we have going here. In fact, I'm intrigued by the 'can't teach family' or 'can teach family' Jedi training ideas. It sounds like a good idea and a bad idea in some ways. In old days the Jedi did want to make sure the masters and the Jedi order could become the family of the padawan (Barriss was trained by a fellow Mirialan) so I'm sure it's possible to train and train well from a family perspective.

Tem, you hit on a good thought, that there might not be actual weapons, but there are probably plans and people who can make planes still around. If Star Wars needs superweapons, there won't be a shortage, I'll say that much. You mentioned Bevel Lemelisk. Who else is out there?

Marusame
4 November 2002, 09:57 PM
Ardent: ..... well crap then. Well, I dun think that jedi should be able to train their children. It just seems too likely to... screw up or something. And Kell did make it seem like Tyria had just gone off on her own without 'permission'. So what I said may still be true, from a certain point of view. ;)

ElfWord
5 November 2002, 04:06 AM
Tyria was ble to later be trained because she gained the discipline she was previously lacking through the military. She was still never a powerful Jedi, although she did earn her Knighthood.
I don't think a parent should be able to train his or her children. It seems to me that it would make that line of Jedi kind of stagnant as the same old ideas are passed down from generation to generation. And whenever one generation lacks aptitude in a certain area of the force, they're likely to not worry about it and forget to pass on instruction regarding it to the next generation.

Ardent
5 November 2002, 07:56 AM
I'm going to argue the other way here, and not just to be the Devil's Advocate.

Corellian Jedi kept mostly to themselves, and indeed, mostly to the Corellian Sector. Corellian bloodlines are as plentiful as Star Destroyers in a Sector Fleet and as thick as a Wookiee's hair during the Old Republic. There were tons of Corellian Jedi. Now, Corellians were rather independant and forward-thinking when it came to training Padawan. If a parent instructs the child, the child receives not only the family's insight into the bloodline's strengths and weaknesses, but the parent's wisdom rather than the Master's beliefs.

However, if the child shows a particular affinity for one area of Jedi focus (Ace, Investigator, etc) they're sent to one of the Corellian Jedi who practice that tradition and trained by them. This ensures that a Jedi's potential isn't wasted with flawed selection of Padawan by a Master.

See what I'm saying? It's no more correct than the old Order's methods, but it may be more effective.

Marusame
5 November 2002, 05:24 PM
Ardent: True, I don't think that there is any 'Correct' method for training.

I appreciate the point you are making, and after reading what you've said I've ajusted my view somewhat.

Okay, it would be better if Masters chose their padawans and USUALLY they weren't related. In certain circumstances that could change, but they would look for a non-relative first.

And also on the note of Cray not having much potential, Callista says that Cray would have been one of the Best Jedi out of all the trainees.