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Kanner Ra'an
10 November 2002, 06:33 AM
Does anyone have any Idea how big the Republics fleet is? Its clearly bigger then described in the Black Fleet Crisis novels, but i have not heard any other numbers so Im asking for help.

Seghast
10 November 2002, 06:39 AM
I can't recall a specific number of warships being given in any book, but the size of their fleet is considerable. I'd say they have a fleet <i>almost</i> as large as the Empire did during it's prime.

Though, I can say there are at least 18 warships the Vong haven't encountered...yet. ;)

Nova Spice
10 November 2002, 08:44 PM
Though, I can say there are at least 18 warships the Vong haven't encountered...yet.

This grabbed my attention! ;) What exactly is this referring to Seghast? Sounds like you know somethign I don't? :D

As far as New Republic fleet size, I would say that during the New Jedi Order's beginning, particularly during Vector Prime, the fleet wasn't as large as it was a few years back before the treaty with the Empire. The downsizing of a military is usually a normally thing during times of peace and the New Republic was no exception. Granted as the series progressed they finally started kicking the war machine back up (around Agents of Chaos II: Jedi Eclipse), though the losses since and before then have diminished their fleet capacity even further.

I would say that currently (during Destiny's Way) the fleet stands well over ten thousand capital ships but no more than twenty thousand. That's just my opinion though and I have no data to support it. ;)

Armadious
10 November 2002, 10:18 PM
I would think that he is refeering to the ships introduced in <U>Cracken's threat Dossier</U> under the Black Fleet Crisis, there are numerous Vessels that are listed there that have not appeared yet in NJO.

And that number of capital ships sounds mostly reasonable there <B>Nova</B>.

But I think that it would be probably more at the 20,000 limit or greater. After all we are talking about ALL capital ships here, from Skiprays, to the ever present SSDs.

But I would also guess that they have less then half the Empire did at its prime. (25,000 ISDs + numerous other craft).

Seghast
11 November 2002, 05:34 AM
Nothing so grandiose as knowing the future of the NJO, I'm afraid, or of the Black Fleet. The 18 warships in question exist only in the campaign I participate in, though the Vong are not a major threat in the galaxy yet. They wait, hidden in an uncharted region of space, for their commander to give the order to unleash Hell upon the Empire (we have a slight AU).

Though, I would like to know where the Black Fleet is during the NJO. I think it'd be nice for them to show up suddenly during a battle and start whooping Vong ass.

I'm wondering if the New Republic has a "mothball" fleet of older ships that have been decomissioned that they could bring in.

Ardent
11 November 2002, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Seghast
I'm wondering if the New Republic has a "mothball" fleet of older ships that have been decomissioned that they could bring in.

The New Republic kept all ships-of-the-line in service, although not always as ships-of-the-line. A lot of the Galactic Civil War-era vessels (Corellian Corvettes, Nebulon-Bs, MC80As, etc) were relegated to planetary defense fleets (I think this was mentioned somewhere, although I can't honestly remember where). I doubt there's much, if anything, the New Republic can 'call up' that isn't rolling out of one of the shipyards for the first time.

ElfWord
11 November 2002, 12:04 PM
Does anyone have a guess as to how many Defender-class Star Destroyers there are?
And I thought Skipray Blastboats were classified as a space transport?

It wouldn't surprise me to see a rather large fleet coming back from a previous mission sometime soon. They may be ships sent into Imperial space, to make sure the Empire wasn't up to anything.

Iain Kysler, Jedi Apprentice
11 November 2002, 12:22 PM
Defender-class SD=Epitome of Coolness! :D

As for the figures, I'm just guessing off the top of my head, but ballpark probably about 20. They were expensive, if powerful, and could dish out as much as they could take, if not more, but because they were kept near the core worlds, I'm wondering if maybe there weren't that many made. Picture them as flagship for purposes of battles and such. Then again, this is what engineers call a WAG...Wild @$$ Guess.

Nova Spice
11 November 2002, 06:50 PM
Does anyone have a guess as to how many Defender-class Star Destroyers there are?

I'd say that Iain had a pretty good number of around twenty Defender-class. If I'm not mistaken the Obi-Wan was the first Defender ever created, and I don't think its made its appearance in the New Jedi Order yet? I'm wondering if most of the Defenders were destroyed at Coruscant?

Warlock-Da
14 November 2002, 05:38 AM
I don't recall any of the defender class being in the stories yet either. Also as the SSotG states they're "concidered too precious to be risked in pitched battles and often kept near the Core Worlds to act as patrol ships and in defense fleets" I'd say a few were lost at Coruscant, but more than likely there's a few left in service.

Jedi Master Talon
10 December 2002, 03:46 PM
If the Defender class Star Destoryers are still in the republic why don't they just kick some ass but if you think about it I'd say the Republic doesn't have that many ships theoretically because the Senators took them home during the battle at Imperial Center. So I'd say the fleet is small. Also look at the fact the Republic has been pounded for quite awhile and they're just getting the gist on YV tech. That's my oppion.B)

Ardent
12 December 2002, 10:13 AM
Each of the five fleet groups is, at maximum strength, comprised of about 50-60 ships-of-the-line and probably 50-100 support vessels. Fighter wing support probably amounts to somewhere between 50 and 100 (we're talking thousands of fighters here).

That's quite a lot of firepower (about the same amount each side was packing at Endor, frankly) in one place. Now, the losses at Coruscant are debated a bit, but most people agree that the overall losses couldn't tally more than two fleet groups. One fleet group and some change is the favored choice.

Which means the NR still has close to 200 fighting vessels, if not that many, left in the Navy. The Imperial Remnant is likely packing the same amount of firepower...and it's anyone's guess as to the Chiss situation.

Jerome Leavy
13 December 2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
Each of the five fleet groups is, at maximum strength, comprised of about 50-60 ships-of-the-line and probably 50-100 support vessels. Fighter wing support probably amounts to somewhere between 50 and 100 (we're talking thousands of fighters here).

That's quite a lot of firepower (about the same amount each side was packing at Endor, frankly) in one place. Now, the losses at Coruscant are debated a bit, but most people agree that the overall losses couldn't tally more than two fleet groups. One fleet group and some change is the favored choice.

Which means the NR still has close to 200 fighting vessels, if not that many, left in the Navy. The Imperial Remnant is likely packing the same amount of firepower...and it's anyone's guess as to the Chiss situation.

I think there are much more ships, but not accessable. After the first few debacles, many systems started taking ships of the line away to protect themselves. Once ot twice this was commented on when the Commanders were trying to get enough ships to attack and defend. Many Senators allowed this to occur......

Side note: I don't think the Alliance had anywhere close to five fleet groups during Endor. The New Republic had a very formidable military (and much larger than 5 fleet groups) before the YV invasion, they were never allowed to use it. Micromanaging and bureaucratic Military leadership lead to micromanagement, except where small groups (led by Antillies, Ke'frey, and others) could take the initiative because they didn't care to follow the exact words of their leaders. The ability for systems to keep their fleets (see previous paragraphs) added to this confusion. In my opinion, the books avoided talking about most of these extra assets because they did not belong to the story/theme, except as a backdrop to the fact the military couldn't access those ships.
The Dark Tide series IDs the somewhat recent buildup of the military, including the production of the Bothan Assault Crusiers.

Ardent
13 December 2002, 08:49 AM
If you'll notice, I said ships-of-the-line. That means the latest, greatest pile of bolts to come off the assembly line, generally. These are the ships that, really, aren't available to private systems and/or Senators for use as their personal pleasurecraft. 50-100 support vessels might include anywhere near to 75% of that makeup being former ships-of-the-line and system-pledged support.

However, I think the key factor is the NR has about 200 ships-of-the-line that it can count on, operating under Farlander, Antilles, Kre'fey (who stepped up after Coruscant near as I can tell -- his detachment seems to include remnants of the two fleet groups at Coruscant) and Bel Iblis. Experienced, hard-edged commanders who aren't going to go down without a fight and command incredible respect from their staffs.

My comparison was one fleet group roughly paralleled the Rebel fleet at Endor, while the Empire had a sector fleet, or a detachment equalling the Rebel fleet's strength.

Anyhow, I'll defer to Nova Spice's expertise on the New Republic fleets should he decide to chime in here.

Jerome Leavy
13 December 2002, 11:43 AM
So I may be better informed, what size class ship constitutes a ship of the line? In some interpretations, they may be as small as a strike crusier class. If you are talking about Imperial Star Destroyer or better in size. Then I submit to your description. :D 8o :rolleyes: :p

Kanner Ra'an
13 December 2002, 01:27 PM
So I may be better informed, what size class ship constitutes a ship of the line? In some interpretations, they may be as small as a strike crusier class. If you are talking about Imperial Star Destroyer or better in size. Then I submit to your description.

Im going to guess that anything bigger or more powerful than a victory 1star destroyer should count as a ship of the line.

Also according to destinys way a lot of new ships were almost finished. This could mean that anywere from 90 to 150 ships of the line and up to 600 support ships ( these are estimates asumming the mon cal, Kuat, and corellian shipyards can produce the same amount or more than fondor) would be ready for the war.

Iain Kysler, Jedi Apprentice
13 December 2002, 09:31 PM
You forgot the shipyards at Bilbringi, Sluis Van, and...what was it...Black Fleet Crisis...Hakassi Shipyards. If the NR, or its fragments, can hold onto those and a solid source of support/supplies, they're not in a horrid position. I'm guessing, though, that Kuat is at best neutral, and at worst, YV-aligned. Think Viqi Shesh...hate her stinking miserable guts. Hope she dies escaping Coruscant.

Ardent
13 December 2002, 09:50 PM
Well, if I'm reading things right, ship strength is based on a quantifiable number assigned based on a number of factors.

To simplify, let's assume anything over 300m qualifies as a ship-of-the-line. This discludes potent warcraft like particular frigates, corvettes and their ilk. Let's also assume anything that's seen more than 30 years of service is discluded, this includes a lot of potent craft, like VSDs and dreadnaughts.

We'll also disclude carrier-class vessels. That's a pretty narrow spectrum qualifying as ship-of-the-line, and a very BROAD spectrum qualifying as "support."

Heck, maybe Supply has its own armada to defend its convoys. You never know...

Jedi Master Talon
16 December 2002, 10:33 AM
I think the SSD's they have they should use them as if their fleet sucks, but let's face it the Nr has gotten the snot kicked out of them.

Jerome Leavy
16 December 2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Master Talon
I think the SSD's they have they should use them as if their fleet sucks, but let's face it the Nr has gotten the snot kicked out of them.

You haven't read Rebel Dream, Rebel Stand, or Destiny's Way yet, have you? I think you will find once the politicians step out of the way that life becomes a lot more interesting for the Yuuzhan Yong.......8o 8o

Nova Spice
16 December 2002, 03:32 PM
You haven't read Rebel Dream, Rebel Stand, or Destiny's Way yet, have you? I think you will find once the politicians step out of the way that life becomes a lot more interesting for the Yuuzhan Yong

Jerome is being too kind here; life becomes quite interesting for the Vong. :D

The Vong learned that Hammers and Spears, when used correctly, tend to smart a bit. :p Especially when these Hammers and Spears utilize a Super Star Destroyer.

I just did a quick re-read through Destiny's Way and found that Ackbar mentions four shipyards containing the remaining fleet groups (that includes Mon Calamari, Kuat, Corellia, and Talaan). By Ardent's estimates it seems that between the remaining NR fleet groups we might possibly account for a little less than a thousand ships of the line. My estimates are close to around ten thousand to twenty thousand total capital craft (including corvettes, old gunships, frigates, etc.).

In essence, I think the New Republic stands about where it was a year before Thrawn in fleet strength. That's just my guesstimation. :D

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
2 January 2003, 05:54 PM
I dunno about exact fleet sizes...

But from having the majority of the fleet squabled over planetary defenses, and not being able to call all of them at once for major defense / offenses... The Vong has used their larger numbers to whittle the NR's fleets down, and barge into the galaxy and take coruscant...

Major tactical error I think... Most due to beuracracy...

And as said above, the politiceans horded those ships for themselves. A couple frigates and an ISD or two each... Rather paltry for when the Vong came knocking on their doorstep with a worldship, several frigates and tons of coral skips. The planet's defenses are lost, the worldship and its frigates remain unscathed...

Had they pooled their resources for the cause, the next world to be visited by that same worldship and couple frigates... a defense force of 10 ISD's and twice as many frigates woulda easily bloody the vong's nose good and proper... and kept the vong's invasion path held back...

Unless the NR still has some aces up their sleeves like the above mentioned shipyards with a sizeable amount of ships near ready and in reserve... I think the NR has lost their capacity to put up a good fight and turn the tide...

When the vong decided to take Coruscant, they did gamble a good portion of their forces to the cause. The NR didn't have a whole lot to defend with. What's a few of their best SD's against overwhelming odds?

Ships of the line... In SW, ships and tech have a good longivity of worthiness and value. A VSD in the NJO era may not be as good as the newer ships, but it certainly isn't any worse than when they rolled out from the shipyards...

I dont think the NR can afford to be picky as to what ships it designates as "ships of the line"... Anything that the NR can pull together for a defensive stance or major offense... those truly are the "ships of the line" ... The presumable ships that are in those shipyards are just ships not yet in service... Until they're put upfront into the battlefield, they're not "ships of the line" .. yet....

From my views, I'd say the NR best wisen up and resort to the Rebelion Era thinking: Use what they got and make best use of it.

Sad to say but the Lusankya could've been the best ship they had, under better circumstances... Unfortunatly, they had to make best use of it by allocating it's weaponry to other lesser dammaged ships and give it one last "ace up their sleeve" sacrifice...

Well, thats my 2 creds ;)

Vanger Chevane
4 January 2003, 09:03 AM
Can you explain the real definition of Ship of the Line?

AFAIK, a Ship of the Line is a fully-functional, up-to-date warship.


The US Navy's ships of the line wouls include everything from escort cutters, missile cruisers, & minelayers up to Aircraft Carriers, and even WW2-era Battleships pulled from mothballs (yet again) and brought up to today's specs, technology wise.

Basically the front-line ships of the fleet. Older, less servicable ships that aren't up to frontline duty, but still serve as convoy escorts, patrol and pickets, or harbor/planetary defense probably don't qualify.



Unless the reconstituted NR Council & its leadership pull their heads out of their 4th-point-of-contact and organize the NR fleet to do some serious damge to the Vong (possibly going as far as to render some Vongformed worlds completely unusable for growing Vongtech, like destroying the atmosphere) the NR will fall piecemeal. The weaker worlds first, then as the Vong get stronger and more numerous, heavily defended Core Worlds.

I'd not be too surprised to see a major Vong Assault on Kuat, as even minor damage to their shipyards seriously hampers the NR's ability to repair damaged ship & field new ones.


The current state of the Vong Invasion can easily be likened to the early years of WW2, where the Nazis pretty much rolled right over everyone in their path. At some point the NR's going to have to develop some new weapons and tech that're very effective againt the Vong, and the Vong themselves are going to have to seriously overreach their capacity, and undergo some radical changes in philosophy to balance the conflict.

Otherwise, it becomes a cut-and-dried case of "The only good Vong's a dead one". This is not what SW is about. Sure the Empire was evil, but not everyone in it was a Tarkin or a Vader. There was a significant amount of morality about having to cut down a lot of decent ppl to destroy a corrupt system. To date the NJO conflict seriously lacks this kind of emotion & is basically a shoot-em-up.