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Its2bad4u
15 November 2002, 07:28 AM
Maybe this should be in the rant section, cause thats what I'm gonna do but... You know what I'm tired of hearing?... "Of course Anakin turned to the dark side. There are like 10000 Jedi and only 2 Sith... Thats not balanced." It seems to me that people who keep saying that are completely missing something. I mean I'm no expert by far. I don't know much of the EU at all and I can only base this on the movies and what I've read in the source books, but aren't Jedi trained to act in balance with the Force? So if the Jedi are acting in harmony with the Force, then its in balance and the only thing to work against that is the dark side. So yeah... the whole comparison between the number of Jedi and the number of Sith gets me cause if you ask me it sounds totally off base.

Rant Over :D

smokn_willie
15 November 2002, 10:10 AM
The prime reason there are only two Sith around at any given point is due to the fact that the Sith kept trying to kill each other off in their quest to be King of the Hill. They almost succeeded in this and the only one left standing was Darth Bane who basically said. "This isn't too cool" and cam up with the idea of 2 (one master and one apprentice). While you seem to think this is off balanced with the number of available Jedi remember what happens. Anakin and the Emperor basically wipe out the Jedi. However not all of this was done by themselves. Remember that you can have other darkside force users working with them, just not Sith. Look at Palpatines Inquisitors or his Hands or even those funny looking prophets with their odd hats. The rule of two only limits the number of Sith not the number of evil force users.

Jim Williams
15 November 2002, 10:21 AM
I used to think "bring balance to the Force" meant fixing an existing problem as of TPM. I now feel that the Jedi are not doing anything wrong as of TPM and AotC, but the dark lord of the Sith is coming, he will destroy the foundations of the Republic, and he will impose a regime on most of the galaxy. He will be stopped. I think Anikin will fail, but Padme "does her duty", hides their children (and probably dies) and it falls to Luke, the son of Skywalker, to save the galaxy from the Emperor.

Except then Vader turns and destroys the Emperor. Prophecy fulfilled.

I could definitely be wrong, but I think the destruction of the Jedi is a tragedy come of poor judgment and testament to the power of a Sith Lord.

Its2bad4u
15 November 2002, 10:30 AM
Ok maybe I didn't make myself clear enough before. I understand why there are only 2 Sith. I know there are other dark side force users besides Vader and the Emporer. My problem is when people talk about the prophecy saying there is someone who will bring balance to the force, they say "If Anakin is the one to bring balance, of course he's going to go to the dark side. They're seriously out numbered by the Jedi." Whether they're really out numbered or not doesn't matter to me. My whole point is that "bringing balance to the force" has nothing to do with the number of people. The fact that there are so many Jedi doesn't shift the balance because the Jedi are acting (or should be) in harmony with the force. If anyone unbalances the Force its whatever dark siders there are. Therefore Anakin turning to the dark side further unbalances the Force. Now before anyone jumps on it, I'm not saying Anakin wasn't the one spoken about in the prohecy since he takes out arguably the most powerful dark sider in the galaxy and redeems himself.

So in short, my problem is using how many more Jedi there are compared to dark siders when speaking about balance in the force.

Its2bad4u
15 November 2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Jim Williams
I used to think "bring balance to the Force" meant fixing an existing problem as of TPM. I now feel that the Jedi are not doing anything wrong as of TPM and AotC, but the dark lord of the Sith is coming, he will destroy the foundations of the Republic, and he will impose a regime on most of the galaxy. He will be stopped. I think Anikin will fail, but Padme "does her duty", hides their children (and probably dies) and it falls to Luke, the son of Skywalker, to save the galaxy from the Emperor.

Except then Vader turns and destroys the Emperor. Prophecy fulfilled.

I could definitely be wrong, but I think the destruction of the Jedi is a tragedy come of poor judgment and testament to the power of a Sith Lord.

Yeah, I agree. I'd say its the rise in power of the Sith that unbalances the Force.

Jim Williams
15 November 2002, 10:39 AM
Well Yoda said the dark side was not as powerful. But it is unrestrained and extremely destructive. This, to me, is why a Sith Lord with a good plan can wreak havoc even though there are thousands of Jedi.

I'm thinking we will see Anikin fall because he goes for the easy/wrong solution to the Sith problem. According to Obi-Wan, this will be a key factor in the destruction of the Jedi.

And it's almost how Luke blew it too running off to save his friends like a do-do. Except everything worked out (whew).

Fred Getce
15 November 2002, 11:32 AM
I really do not believe that the prophecy had anything to do with the amount of force users...period. Let's face facts. The Jedi believe that the Sith were extinct until TPM, and only darkside force user exist currently in EU so they are automatically out the door unless Lucas says otherwise (we can assume all we want, but it doesn't change the facts). So they would not worry about the amount of dark side force users. However they would be concerned with so many Jedi with different views of the Force and their role as Jedi. They were getting to many maverick like Jedi who were teaching illicit point of views about the Jedi order. Many Jedi became either more aggressive or to complacent in their role as Gaurdians of Peace and Justice. So they needed a leader. Someone to reign in their members and redirect them back on the path they were intended to be. Hence the prophecy.

I believe the prophecy was more about the Jedi Order and "THEIR" balance. You had mavericks, rogue, rebellous and uncoordinated Jedi for several centuries, the lost twenty and than Mace's line about the prophecy. I think it was meant that "The one who will bring balance to the Force" was a reference to bringing the Jedi Order into balance with themselves AND the Force. You wouldn't have all these Jedi with drastically different point of views about the Force anymore. The Qui-Gon types would follow suit with the chosen one, and once he learned their ways he would forge ahead and re-establish the order into a new form with both unity with its brothers and sisters and harmony with the Force.

Anakin did just this, in a way that...well...definitely re-establish them by simply starting over. Now we only have to see what Luke does.

Its2bad4u
15 November 2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Fred Getce
I really do not believe that the prophecy had anything to do with the amount of force users...period.

yeah thats what I'm saying.

Thats an interesting view of the prophecy too... interesting as in I like it

DirkGreystoke
17 November 2002, 04:34 PM
I think the prophecy that is spoke of about Anakin bringing balance to the Force has something to with the conversation Mace and Yoda had in EPII about the Jedi losing their ability to manipulate the Force. Lucas also says that the whole thing with Qui-Gon's voice will be resolved in EPIII. So it looks like you will have to wait until EPIII to get your answer on the prophecy about Anakin. But I agree with the rest here, it has nothing to do with sheer numbers of Sith Lord or Jedi. Whoever told the thread-starter that has not really thought things through in my opinion.

Wade Trenor
17 November 2002, 05:10 PM
It could just be that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin 'wipes the slate clean', so that the Jedi and other Force traditions start over.

Also, who's to say that the prophecy was about Anakin?

Like has been suggested before, we should wait until Episode III is finished and then see what GL has to say about it all.

ElfWord
17 November 2002, 05:56 PM
Good point Wade. Qui-Gon could be wrong about Anakin being the one who will bring balance to the force. It could be Luke, or Jacen, or perhaps even end up being Ben Skywalker.

Its2bad4u
17 November 2002, 06:05 PM
Yeah it doesn't neccessarily have to be about Anakin, but I have just heard a lot of people describe the prophecy in terms of the numbers of Jedi and dark siders. And that whole thing really bothered me for some reason... cause it didn't make much sense at all to me

Codym
17 November 2002, 06:23 PM
The prophecy is more to do with the fact that the Jedi no longer listen to the will of the Force. As of Phantom Menace, the Jedi have become as stale and stagnant as the Republic itself, too busy worrying about the future to deal with the present. The Basicly, when they finally acted, it was too late to change anything, and they die. There is a reason Qui-Gon, the proponent of the living Force, was an outsider in the order (and why he's the first Jedi to become a Force Spirit.) And there is a reason Yoda subscribes to Qui-Gon's teaching when handling Luke.

Anakin brings balance to the force in a couple ways. The first is the wiping out of the Jedi (he could have probably done something else to fix the problems with the Jedi, but I doubt that would have been as good a story.) Secondly, he killed Palpatine, taking out the Sith. Thirdly, he spawned Luke, someone who is lightside but will only train one or two Jedi his life time, restarted the cycle once again, and the Force is in balance.

And for those who don't believe it's Anakin, seek out various interviews with George Lucas, who openly states that not only is he the one to bring balance, but that he succeeds.