View Full Version : Flaming and other nonsense

20 November 2002, 11:44 AM
Frankly, I thought these boards were to be friendly and give constructive critism. But time and time again I see jerks flaming other people because of what they wrote up or what they posted. I think that you so called Purist need to loosen up. The universe is yours. If some one wants shades of gray in the game, who are you to tell them "well that ain't Star Wars"? If you don't like it then ignore it. If you have an opinion and can say it in an adult manner then do so. Don't try to make yourself look all big and bad by putting other people down.

I'm sure you don't like it. I don't but I have a lot of restraint.

Well that is my mini rant, Post if you like.
Da Pookster

20 November 2002, 01:43 PM
I agree.

If you disagree, that is fine, and well if everyone agreed then the world would be pretty boring. I just think that when most people disagree with something they get overly defensive.

I can do that sometimes with things I hold really dear, and most times I can't even explain why I hold those things dear it is just something that is a part of me.

However, if we look at the SW universe it is one that is rich enough that you can go all cannon and only stick to what people know, or you can branch out and add "grey areas" or heck even change things you don't agree with, or just to change things because many people just know way to much and it would be like roleplaying a movie.

That is the beauty of RPG's. It is your world and you can pretty much do what you want with it as long as you lay the ground rules from the start so the players don't feel like you are cheating them.

Just my two cents.

20 November 2002, 02:07 PM
I agree that getting upset over canon is silly. The beauty of Star Wars can be so many different things to so many different people. To limit it to a specific and narrow viewpoint, in my mind, is a waste.

20 November 2002, 02:11 PM
Just as an aside, we moderators try and make sure that flaming does not occur. However, sometimes we miss something. If you see someone flame someone else, please don't hesitate to use the "report" button and let the mod know what's going on. Thanks!

Corr Terek
20 November 2002, 06:27 PM
I, too, am tired of people flaming others because of their opinions. Especially those who pop into a thread, make some stupid, offensive comment, and then leave. That really bugs me. When I see a thread in which flames have been hurled, it seems to me that I can't offer an opinion -- a lot of good threads have probably died this way.

Reverend Strone
20 November 2002, 07:22 PM
Well, you're right. Sadly flaming does happen- even here, though we do our best as Moderators and Holonetters to try and discourage it and stamp on it when it appears. As Moridin said, please alert your friendly neighbourhood Mod if ever you spot any so we can try and deal with it promptly.

I must say however, in defense of this place and the people who come here and post, that in my experience at least, flaming is the exception rather than the norm. Unlike so many other forums and chatrooms on line, the Holonet is generally a very neighbourly place to hang out and discuss our favourite subjects. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've only encountered it a few times here (compared to it being all over the WOTC boards, and being the standard method of communication over at Aintitcool.com), and it's almost always dealt with quickly and pinlessly by the good folks who run the place or the local Mod.

There will always be cretins who want to rattle people's cages, or simply folks who can't carry out a civilised discussion with anyone who might have dissenting point of view, but for the most part, that's uncommon around here. With everyone's efforts (Moderators and regular Holonetters alike), it is my sincere hope it will stay that way. That's why I signed on, and that's why I'm still here.

Talonne Hauk
20 November 2002, 07:40 PM
All too often, on many internet boards/threads, people let themselves get piqued over a minor aside or comment. To be honest, I feel that this topic is a good example. Technopooka, you yourself said it best, "If you don't like it, ignore it." I think you should follow your own advice. If you don't like what someone has written, ignore it and them. Obviously, that person isn't worth your time. Don't get upset, because you're playing their game then. I guess what I'm saying is that everyone ought to lighten up and be less sensitive. When that happens, those people that get a rise out of putting other people down will go somewhere else to find their brand of fun.

21 November 2002, 04:38 PM
To play Devil's Advocate a bit...

Just because you do not agree with somone does not mean you should not post. What it means is you need to post CONSTUCTIVE criticisim so that you can add something to the discussion. I am certainly one that has opinions and am willing to share them, however I like to think that my making a suggestion, or politely giving my two cents worth does not dicount the validity of other's ideas. (Hell I am the one who allows force sensitive Droids in my game so I should never judge on what is and is not SW he he) Personally I value CONSTRUCTIVE disagreements in my posts...better than no comment at all.

I remember how it feels to be new aound here, and I know it can be hard if lots of old-timers dissagree woth you. I just would hope that they are doing for constructive reasons, and not just to cut someone down.

22 November 2002, 04:20 PM
I find this amusing. To be blunt, a post can only offend you if you let it (excusing obvious flames like "You suck...but your idea is good!"). If you take the logical approach to any post and say "Well, it was directed generally and not at me, personally" you're not going to be bothered by the occasional negative comment.

I'm pretty certain I'm the reason this thread was started, based on technopooka's assumption that my comments were meant to be condescending or devisive towards him. I try to avoid that sort of thing. Answer someone's idea, question, comment, whatever, yes. Quote it, sure...don't want other readers to get lost...but I won't attack a person over an idea. But the idea...that's fair game. It's just an idea. I've had a few of mine shattered in the few months I've been regularly reading and posting on the Holonet...but that's the way it goes.

There's definitely a lot of room for individual expression in Star Wars, and you shouldn't let anyone else's opinion ruin your expression. However, there are a few canon tenets that you really have to abide by in order for Star Wars to remain fun. Including the Dark Side of the Force and the rules that deal with them. It's FINE to modify them slightly by way of feats and the like...but when you throw them out you've suddenly undercut the point of differentiating between Light and Dark. You've destroyed the inhereint conflict that makes Star Wars interesting.

Sure, you could run a campaign where the 'heroes' sit around trying to pay their rent on 9 to 5s, never getting in a bar brawl, avoiding scuffles and run-ins with the law...but why the heck would you want to? I certainly wouldn't want to, I'll tell you what.

That is the issue that broke the camel's back here...Technopooka decided to defend the 'gray area campaign' and I attacked the idea that one could be fun. No flaming, no condescention and no foul was meant. But I can't control how he reacts to what I write. I can try to direct his reaction, obviously, that's the point of persuasive writing, but I can't control it. The thread I'm referring to can be found here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?threadid=10356).

Thank you for bothering to finish my rather long-winded and self-righteous rant about a rant.

23 November 2002, 09:57 AM
The one thing you just said is the overall reason for posting this.

Technopooka decided to defend the 'gray area campaign' and I attacked the idea that one could be fun.-Ardent

None of us should be here to attack anyone else's ideas. We are here to share and debate. Posting that you do not like something is okay, even saying that you do not like some one's idea is okay as long as you can offer alternatives or ideas to help it. But to say that something is not Star Wars is right out. Peopl eget from Star Wars what they want and put into their games what they want. They put forth ideas in hopes that some one out there would like it or constructively critisize it. (That meaning give ideas on how to improve or ideas why it wouldn't work) Saying it just isn't star wars sounds like an attack and correct me if I am all alone in this and I'll shut up.

Star Wars is what you make it not what some one else says it is.

Peace out Folks
Da Pookster

23 November 2002, 01:57 PM
None of us should be here to attack anyone else's ideas. We are here to share and debate. Posting that you do not like something is okay, even saying that you do not like some one's idea is okay as long as you can offer alternatives or ideas to help it.
Whenever we post something here, we have to be ready to accept criticism on it. In general, debate is an attack on ideas. I agree with Ardent in saying that I don't think a "grey side" campaign will work. I don't think it's a part of Star Wars, and that (in my opinion) is enough to ruin the feel of a game. By the same token, you're entitled to disagree with me and run your game the way you want to.

Maybe if I argue against an idea intelligently, the original poster will understand what I'm saying and reconsider. Maybe he or she eventually agrees with me, ditches an idea that will fail, and comes up with something spectacular next time around.

The point is: so long as our criticisms are well thought out they can be helpful, whether or not others agree with them. Personal attacks are to be avoided, but saying an idea won't work, and then why (in the poster's opinion), is hardly a personal attack. We take a lot of pride in our ideas. Sharing them risks criticism, but ultimately, results in a more refined final version, if we're willing to listen.

23 November 2002, 02:53 PM
I think there is a fine line between constructive criticism and "attacking" an idea, i.e. the difference between "I don't personally think that idea will work, and here's why," and "That idea won't work, I'm right and you're wrong." One point can be debated intelligently and without hurt feelings; the other generally cannot.

I think that in the aforementioned discussion, that line got crossed, and thus acrimony and personal feelings got involved. Once that happens, the debate is no longer about the subject, but about who's more "wrong" than the other -- which I think is totally counterproductive on a board like this.

There is something to be said for being confident enough in your own opinion that you consider it the pinnacle of all that is right and beyond reproach, or that you feel you can disregard the opinions of others as so much nonsense, but neither is an excuse to be rude to others. (I say this as a user who has slipped and been rude to others on more than one occasion... nobody's perfect).

If you hold an opinion of any kind, someone is going to disagree with you about it sooner or later. There are people out there who still believe the earth is flat, and may call you a fool for believing otherwise. I think the best you can do is to make your points as clearly (and hopefully, as cordially) as you can, and then move on with your life.

Nova Spice
23 November 2002, 04:35 PM
I think there is a fine line between constructive criticism and "attacking" an idea, i.e. the difference between "I don't personally think that idea will work, and here's why," and "That idea won't work, I'm right and you're wrong." One point can be debated intelligently and without hurt feelings; the other generally cannot.

I tend to agree with dg here, although I must say that knowing Ardent, I can vouch for him in that he is just a very blunt and honest person; sometimes brutally honest, which is not a bad thing most of the time.

I think the term attacking wasn't meant to sound hostile, but rather to emphasize that it was the suggestion not the person that was being disputed. Personally I feel that the above mentioned scenario wasn't true flaming, more or rather, a disagreement on practice. The flaming that is harmful comes when folks begin to get violent or extremely rude to others, which did not happen IMO in this case.

I hardly ever make judgments about someone after a single post. Its impossible IMO to say "that guy is a jerk" after a single solitary post. It takes time for an opinion of someone to form that is accurate. Basically, I think if we all realize that sometimes people will be people, everyone will be better off.

Good luck to all of you, but I think the above scenario just became a bit blown up for no particular reason. Its probably best to just move on as dg suggested and not hold any hard feelings toward one another. :D ;)

That's my two cents I suppose.....I know it means very little, but I felt compelled to respond. :D

24 November 2002, 02:17 AM
I believe that a lot of flames are directed at ideas more than the person posting them. The flame is posted because a certain idea doesn't fit in with someone's style or most often because they're not good with it or don't know what to do about it. Things like "Force suppression is so stupid, you're all a bunch of morons for using it," has probably been posted by some unoriginal player who likes jedi Guardians, and throws a hissy-fit whenever the GM uses force suppresion because the player doesn't know what to do about it. To give a story of my personal experience with RL flaming in my dormitory, I present the following example:
In the popular computer game Age of Empires II, I would always build outposts all over the map, to increase the area which I could see. My opponents always hated this, becuase they couldn't destroy my outposts without me rebuilding them. Rather than coming up with an effective strategy, or doing the same thing themselves, they would instead yell at me, "That's cheating you loser! Your freaking outposts are so gay, stop doing it!"

Just my opinion.