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Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
23 November 2002, 10:00 AM
All the pilots mentioned in Rogue Squadron were shown in the movies or EU. What ever happened to Kasan Moor? I don't recall her dying.

ElfWord
24 November 2002, 01:45 AM
The last mention I can find of Kasan Moor anywhere, is 1 year after Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, when she led Rogue Squadron to Balmorra, "a factory planet at the Outer Edge of the Galactic Core in the Nevoota System that builds advanced weapons." This is from the Rogue Squadron 3d Game.

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
24 November 2002, 04:23 PM
She must have been at Hoth, because the bios in Rogue Squadron show her in a snowspeeder in what I assume to be Echo Base.

Nova Spice
24 November 2002, 07:54 PM
If Kasan was at Hoth, its quite possible she died. The Rogues were pretty torn up after that engagement.

KIA:
-Zev Senesca
-Dack Ralter
-Kesin Ommis
-Kasan Moor (?)
-At least three more not named

She isn't mentioned anywhere after the Rogue Squadron game so my guess is that she was taken down in action. Hoth is the likely battle, but its possible she died at Endor or another battle (Derra IV maybe?).

Good question at any rate. Its interesting someone pointed this out because I had forgotten all about Kasan Moor. Nice memory ! :D

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
25 November 2002, 01:44 PM
Kesin Ommis? Who's that? Was he Hobbie's gunner?

Nova Spice
25 November 2002, 06:19 PM
Kesin Ommis? Who's that? Was he Hobbie's gunner?

Yeah, he was Hobbie's gunner who was killed when he got shot down. Hobbie survived with some pretty nasty wounds, but Kesin (who was from Coruscant) was killed on impact. I imagine Kasan, who was a very skilled pilot, probably was blown apart by AT-AT fire if she died at Hoth. Who knows, perhaps she was in the snowspeeder in the background that we see trailing smoke and explode?

My guess is that she died at Hoth, but until we receive an official confirmation, its anyone's guess. :raised:

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
26 November 2002, 01:18 PM
What's wrong with being a gunner? Luke crashes. He lives, Dack dies. Hobbie crashes. He lives, Kesin dies. Any reason?

Nova Spice
26 November 2002, 07:24 PM
What's wrong with being a gunner? Luke crashes. He lives, Dack dies. Hobbie crashes. He lives, Kesin dies. Any reason?

Another good question Wedge. (You're getting quite good at them too! :D )

I would guess that the gunners took a whole lot more risk for a couple of reasons. Here's my thoughts on the matter.

1. The fact that the snowspeeders of Rogue Squadron were traveling at such great speeds made targeting them difficult for the AT-AT gunners. As the T-47's moved to engage the Imperial walkers, Luke and most of the other pilots attacked at angles, rather than head-on. This means the AT-AT gunners never had a really good head-on shot as the speeders moved closer and therefore had to settle for hitting the sides, or in Kesin and Dack's instance, the rear of the speeder.

2. The gunners on the snowspeeders had their backs turned towards the walkers as the Rebels made their approach. My guess is that, since they more than likely had no clue as to what was happening in front of them, their reflexes were slowed a good deal compared to that of the pilot. This probably had something to do with it as well.

I hope that helps a bit, although this is simply my input on the matter, so it doesn't bear a whole lot of weight. :D :p

Kal_Myadon
27 November 2002, 02:45 AM
Or it could be that they only put airbags in the pilots seats and didn't bother protecting the poor gunners, its a scandal I tell you a scandal.

Only kidding but I think that she survived and was mentioned in one of the X wing novels. Obviously she was a pilot not a gunner


Kal

Ardent
3 December 2002, 07:24 AM
Hunh....I'm gonna go ahead and...have to...disagree with you on that one, Nova. The Rogue Squadron survivor list from Hoth was like five or six people long.

Rogues we KNOW survived that engagement: Wes Janson, Wedge Antilles, Luke Skywalker, Dash Rendar, Hobbie Klivian and, I believe, Dixie Rivan (I believe...). That leaves a pretty big MIA/KIA list (because, as I recall, Dash joining the Rogues put them back at full strength), but not the 75% casualties you're talking about.

I'd presume everyone serving with Rogue Squadron in that period died at Hoth, except for the above mentioned.

Nova Spice
3 December 2002, 02:12 PM
I'd presume everyone serving with Rogue Squadron in that period died at Hoth, except for the above mentioned.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't know the names of all those KIA so I just placed the ones up that I knew for sure (Kasan being the exception). There's no doubt the Rogues took one hell of a beating at Hoth. The only battle that even compares with that im my mind is the Battle of Dantooine in the New Jedi Order where the Rogues took fifty percent casualties.

When I mentioned "at least three more," I was referring to actual Rogue units (meaning that if three more speeders went down, six Rogues went down with them). And don't forget that Tycho Celchu fought and survived the Battle of Hoth.

Hoth is one of those battles where the Rebellion was in a lose/lose situation. Just minimizing the losses was considered a minor victory. :(

Ardent
3 December 2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
When I mentioned "at least three more," I was referring to actual Rogue units (meaning that if three more speeders went down, six Rogues went down with them). And don't forget that Tycho Celchu fought and survived the Battle of Hoth.

Hoth is one of those battles where the Rebellion was in a lose/lose situation. Just minimizing the losses was considered a minor victory. :(

I think there were 10 snowspeeders (I never counted, to be honest). Which means four made it out unscathed. Leaving room for eight survivors.

FYI, Tycho did not serve as a Rogue until the Battle of Endor (if then, as I recall Tycho belonged to a separate squadron from the Rogues -- he was Gold, Wedge was Red). Whether or not Tycho served at Hoth is debatable. A question to pose to Michael Stackpole, I suppose.

Remember, Tycho had just joined the Rebellion around the period Hoth occured. If he was there, it would have been his first assignment...and he's an ex-Imperial, so that's unlikely. I also don't recall seeing any A-Wings in the bays, so I don't think he was there. It's possible, of course, but unlikely.

Sompeetalay
4 December 2002, 05:07 AM
Tarrin Datch (Rogue 10) also survives, Tenk Lenso (Rogue 11), does not survive the battle ... Lt. Tarn Mison flew cover for the Bright Hope so he survived as well.

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
4 December 2002, 01:55 PM
In X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, I believe that Tycho had a patch that identified him as a survivor of Hoth (Ardent, I thouht he was Green at Endor. Y-Wings were Gold). Also, another survivor was Samoc Farr.
For simplicity, I wll list what we have concluded so far

Died

Kesin Ommis
Zev Senesca
Dack Ralter
Tenk Lenso
Kasan Moor?

Lived

Luke Skywalker
Wedge Antilles
Dash Rendar
Wes Janson
Hobbie Klivian
Dixie Rivan
Samoc Farr
Tarrin Datch
Taarn Mison
Tycho Celchu?

That's 15. If there were 10, that leaves 6 unaccounted pilots.
Perhaps ther is something in Decipher cards?

Sompeetalay
6 December 2002, 10:49 AM
Are you sure that Dix Rivan fought on Hoth ??

There is nothing more in the decipher cards ... Well, it doesn't surprise me that we can't get all the pilots. Remember the scène where Leia and Derlin talk to all these pilots ? There are plenty of them, if only they had their own name ...

There is another Pilot called Zev. It's not Zev Senesca and not Zevulon Veers (the EU son of General Veers). I've forgotten his name, but I once had a contest and one of the contestants send in that name. I had to look for the answer myself and thought it was an okay answer, so it mut be out there somewhere :)

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
6 December 2002, 12:01 PM
Who is Dixie Rivan, anyway?

Nova Spice
6 December 2002, 12:47 PM
Who is Dixie Rivan, anyway?

Dixie Rivan is a young pilot that flew with the Rogues in the Shadows of the Empire novelization. He was killed at Vergesso Asteroids I believe when an Imperial Fleet led by the Executor ambushed the Rogues. He was a real "cowboy-ish" type of pilot. Too bad he died, I liked him for the short amount of time before he was killed.

Ardent
6 December 2002, 10:38 PM
I'm not certain Dix was with the Rogues at Hoth, but if he wasn't he certainly joined up fast...he was with them prior to the fleet buildup at Sullust. Dix may have been with Echo on Hoth and was assimilated into the Rogues to fill in for casualties.

Dixie, BTW, flew vanguard for the Rogues. Thus, he was in the most risk of all of them.

Rogue Janson
9 December 2002, 04:10 AM
If there were 10 snowspeeders seen at Hoth, that means 20 crew. So if we agree that a squadron is 12 pilots, this mean there were more people manning the speeders than should have been in Rogue Squadron.

I'm guessing there were extra gunners/pilots drafted in to make up the numbers, so not all of them were technically part of Rogue Squadron. Luke says "Rogue group, use your harpoons and tow cables" rather than calling them Rogue Squadron, which fits with the idea that they are not technically 'Rogue Squadron' (though I admit the group/squadron etc. terminology is often used loosely).
Since Luke only gave the instruction to "Rogue group" this implies that all the speeders fighting the AT-ATs were part of Rogue group, so the alternate explanation that not all of the 10 speeders were Rogue ones is unlikely.

Nova Spice
9 December 2002, 12:45 PM
If there were 10 snowspeeders seen at Hoth, that means 20 crew. So if we agree that a squadron is 12 pilots, this mean there were more people manning the speeders than should have been in Rogue Squadron.

Good point Janson! :D (sorry for the corny pun)

At any rate, I think that you have a very interesting hypothesis. If I'm right, I know that I read somewhere that there was a squadron of snowspeeders at Hoth called Echo Squadron. The X-wings escorting the evacuation flew under the banner of Renegade Squadron, so I know that other squads and groups were present at Hoth besides the infamous Rogue Squadron. It is a very real possiblity that the Rogues numbers were not as heavy as that of the entirety of the Rebel forces at Hoth.

Its something to think about, that's the truth. ;)

Darklighter
9 December 2002, 08:27 PM
Alright, with my handle, I feel I have to weigh in on this with a thought or two. ;)

Janson has suggested that not all the crew in Hoth's airspeeders were strictly Rogue pilots, and Nova Spice has suggested that there may have been more snowspeeders than just Rogue squadron's. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this though, guys. I don't want to misrepresent what you've said.)

I think I'd agree with both assertions. In the first instance, the Rogues would need gunners. Gunners from Y-wings would seem to be a natural fit, and a close second would be gunners from higher speed armour. I've also always believed there was more than just one squadron of snowspeeders defending the Alliance's main base. Ten seems like too few for such an important location, even in a delaying action.

Nova, do you remember where it was that you read about Echo squadron?

Ardent
9 December 2002, 08:30 PM
We've pretty much established that Rogue Squadron comprised 60% of the snowspeeders and Echo squadron probably comprised the other 40% or so.

Aside from Tycho Celchu, however, and possibly Dixie Rivan, we have no idea who flew with Echo at Hoth.

Nova Spice
10 December 2002, 12:30 PM
Nova, do you remember where it was that you read about Echo squadron?

Unfortunately it has been so long that I can't recall exactly. I want to say that I read about Echo Squadron in a comic. Although I certainly can't be sure which one, but I'm pretty sure it was at least a Dark Horse comic. Sorry that I cannot specifically remember for you Darklighter. :(

Perhaps I can track down where I read about it. I have someone I know with more than a few Star Wars comics. ;)

And as Ardent said, we pretty much have come to the conclusion that Echo Squadron utilized around 40% of Hoth's snowspeeder forces. The Rogues made up the remaining 60%, while the Renegades took to the skies in the X-wings to cover the escaping transports. Therefore, it is a reasonable conclusion that both Echo and Rogue Groups suffered heavy losses together, but its possible that Rogue Group fared better than Echo (in fact I say its highly likely).

I'll have to do some research on Echo Group and will report back when I find any more information. :)

wolverine
11 December 2002, 02:52 AM
Echo # to base, we have located captain solo and skywalker, i repeat we have located captain solo.

'Good of you boys to drop in...

Wedge Antilles, Rogue Leader
12 December 2002, 02:11 PM
That was Zev. He was Rogue 2, not Echo.