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View Full Version : Battle at Geonosis vs old trilogy



Korpil
12 December 2002, 09:00 AM
Now, I'm not starting here a troll or a flame war, I don't want to bash the new prequel trilogy either, and maybe this isn't even the place to put this, but this weekend watching head to head Episode II and Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, with my girlfriend we agreed on a strange statement.

Old trilogy battles work more because you are identified with one of the groups (Rebels, mostly), that is, you know who the good guys are, you care for them, you suffer when they are suffering and you enjoy every single action towards victory....

But on Episode II, IMHO it's like watching a box match between two fighters you don't care about... I mean.. the Separatist and their droids? Yeah, they look cool... so what... do you want them to win? Probably not. The Clone Troopers? Ok, they're on the "good" side, fighting along the Jedi and for the Republic... but they are the basis for the stormtroopers you've learned to hate so much after the previous trilogy.. so... do you really care if they win? I mean, you care for the Jedi (or at least I do), but, what about the rest of the clone troopers? Just cannon fodder!!!! And that simply, at least for me, cannot ring any bell, it doesn't touch any string... it's just... a technological achievement and a vast display of computer animation technology... No dying rebels you care about, not even fuzzy ewoks who die because of an AT-ST...

That again, IMHO... opinions? comments?

dgswensen
12 December 2002, 09:42 AM
I think the ambiguity of who's on the "right" side is what makes the Geonosis battle interesting. Yes, the Clonetroopers are the "good" guys ostensibly, but no doubt they become the tool of the Empire eventually.

It's a very different story than what happens in the original trilogy, and personally I'm glad for it. By the time of ROTJ, the story has become much more straightforward, but you see in Episode II the big changes that are happening in the Galaxy, and you see how the Republic fell and the Empire rose. Which, to me, makes a better story than "ooh the Galactic Empire is EEEEVIL and they do EEEVIL stuff." A lot of people are always saying Star Wars need more moral gray areas. Well, here it is!

As for "not caring" about the characters; I am not trying to flame you or anyone else for having that opinion, but I think that's an invalid criticism. Your emotions are your own. I don't feel anyone can "make" you care about anything, no matter how well-written the screenplay or compelling the performances. Certainly, those factors make it more likely that you will engage yourself with the story, but ultimately whether or not you are moved by a work of fiction hinges a lot on your willingness to give yourself up to it.

Plus, I think you're barking up the wrong tree expecting it to be that way. The final battle of ROTJ is the last desperate gamble of the underdogs fighting for their very survival. That's not happening in Episode II. The Episode II battle is the opening salvo in a greater series of engagements, and more in the "daring rescue" vein than anything else.

I think the Episode II battle is meant to be a spectacular battle sequence, not one that's emotionally charged. I think the emotional core of Episode II is in the relationships between Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme, and not at all in the "Clone War" sequence.

Rogue Janson
12 December 2002, 10:07 AM
I agree with <b>dgwensen</b> that the Geonesis battle is not really meant to engage on a personal level. As the first battle in a series of wars, what it needs to convey is scale and destruction, rather than personality and personal feelings - Anakin and Obi-Wan's little detour covers this area. I don't know what's going to be in EpIII, but Geonesis could have to set the tone for the whole clone wars. It needs to show that this is a wasteful, stupid conflict, and that it's bigger and beyond the control of any individual characters.

Of course you can accept all that and still dislike it. Personally I enjoyed it as the first example of a full scale battle between two conventional armies in one of the films.

strensk
12 December 2002, 10:48 AM
Personally I find myself pulling for the Clone Troopers.

Some of that may have to do with some of my Empire sypmathies too. :D

The separatists are merely a tool for Palpatine to rise to power, they are being duped and more than likely don't believe too much in what they are fighting for, hence the droids.

As far as Rebels some rebels who died, some of them I could identify with, and could even understand.

As far as Ewoks are concerned I never liked them and enjoyed watching them die.

Korpil
12 December 2002, 11:09 AM
Yeah, I see dgswensen and Rogue Janson's point, and yes, from that point of view the battle is great (BTW I never had anything against it, just I was trying to view it on an emotional level that never existed or that is not supposed to exist).

I came to this conclusion also because although I see most of us roleplaying a Rebel or even an Imperial on the classic trilogy, it is almost pointless to roleplay a separatist droid or a clone trooper, right? Anyway... thanks for your comments!

DirkGreystoke
12 December 2002, 08:09 PM
The other thing you have to consider is that the whole story goes in sequence. George is making the movies so they look the way they want to when you watch them all in order. The Geonosis Battle is actually a precursor to the later Battle of Endor. It is jut hard to see it that way cause we've already seen Episodes IV - VI.

I also happen to dissagree about the whole battle. It is very emotionally charged, but in a different way. Thsi is summed up by Yoda's last line in the movie. This battle is pure choas, symbolizing the Republic falling apart. The chaos is a result of the blindness and naive nature of the Republic and the Jedi Council. This was very emotionally charged for me, since it also set up the cryptic sequence with Palpatine and Bail Organa watching the troops fly off to the theme of the Imperial March......pure brilliance.

Kryl'thar
14 December 2002, 12:27 PM
I have to agree that the battle's so far haven't had as much emotional impact for me either. The absolute worst I think was in the Phantom Menace. Did anyone really care about any of the no-name pilots attacking the Trade Federation Battleship. Sure it was pretty, but there was no real sense of jeopardy. None of the characters were really well known, and the battle zipped by so fast that there was no opportunity to build up tension.

The fight with the clone troopers was pure eye candy. I guess that failed to strike an emotional chord because the troopers didn't really have their backs to the wall like rebels always did. The tension in the Hoth sequence was generated principly by the ponderous procession of walkers across the snowy landscape. The rebels were fighting a desperate delaying action while Luke Skywalker lead the most successful part of the counter-offensive.

They're both very well done scenes, but the newer movies lack that sense of jeopardy for the good guys.

dgswensen
14 December 2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Kryl'thar
Did anyone really care about any of the no-name pilots attacking the Trade Federation Battleship.

I dunno, did you care about any of the no-name pilots flying in the ROTJ battle? I mean besides Wedge?

I agree with you that the Naboo space battle was sub-par, but I think Star Wars is the only film where any of them are developed at all.

Codym
14 December 2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Kryl'thar
[BThey're both very well done scenes, but the newer movies lack that sense of jeopardy for the good guys. [/B]

It's actually one of the problems with doing a prequel - how do you keep a sense of danger when you know the outcome? It would be interesting to see if people have the same opinion if all they had seen is Episodes I and II.