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View Full Version : Relation between the Force and "the True Gods"



Jedi Master Talon
12 December 2002, 10:23 AM
If you look at the YV religion it's so close to the force it's not funny I think their just the same thing just on a diffenet spectrum. What do you guts think?

Ardent
12 December 2002, 10:35 AM
<shrug> That can be said for any religion, frankly. It's because the fundamental psychological similarity in humans is the need to believe in something more than yourself. Like any psychosis or dementia, it manifests itself differently in different people and is very open to suggestion regarding the formation of belief. As with any other psychosis, there are people in denial, too.

Of course, reducing religion to a collective insanity isn't really right. It's quite a bit more than that, but, at it's base, that's what it is. Thus, when approached from the correct angles, all religions look the same.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

jedi knight Big Rig
12 December 2002, 12:00 PM
I agree with Ardent.
any religion can be compared with
any other. byut ya they are really close.:)

Nova Spice
12 December 2002, 02:47 PM
Typically I don't think the Force and the True Way are in anyway the same thing. We know they are two different beliefs, but I think at the core, they are different as well.

-The followers of Force (Jedi) believe that it binds all things living together.

-The True Way followers (Yuuzhan Vong) believe that for one to a live, one must accept death and embrace pain.

Looking at those two points you see that the Force is a belief that desires for life to prosper, or at least its light side followers desire for life to prosper. The True Way followers desire for life to prosper, but not at the expense of death. Death to the True Way followers is life, so in essence death is more important than life to the Vong. That's certainly not the case with the Jedi.

I think they share similarities, but deep down are essentially quite different. Just my opinion on the subject; take it with as much credence as you'd like. :D

Dan Kyrinov
12 December 2002, 04:48 PM
I don't think they share any similarities at all. Maybe you could point some out?
The Force is impersonal, no faces or legends or anything. No god figures. The Yuuzhan Vong religion has many. The Yuuzhan Vong present a theory for the creation of the universe: Yun-Yuuzhan tears himself to pieces. The Force doesn't. In fact, the Force is not a religion, though there are institutions similar to religions set up around it. When I look at what we know of the Force and what we know of the Yuuzhan Vong belief system I see almost nothing alike.

Jedi Master Talon
12 December 2002, 05:49 PM
If you want some similarities I'll give you some Dan. The YV beilive Yun-Yuuzahn created them well the Force binds all life. If you look at the Yuuzahn Vong it's proven that they live in the force but Just in a differnet spectrum of it. If you want an example on those Jacen an Anakin pulled it off with the YV's technollogy. So if the gods must be just a different way of interperting the force. So your next question will be why (if it's another interpretation) would the Force tell them to attack the galaxy? Well consider the sorce the Shapers have lied before ecspeccially to their own race. The Force and "The true Gods" are the same to me because the Force has the same sides to it like the gods do. That's just what I think. I could be wrong.:)

Corr Terek
12 December 2002, 06:14 PM
The YV beilive Yun-Yuuzahn created them well the Force binds all life.

That doesn't prove anything. The Force is a product of life, not the creator of life.


If you look at the Yuuzahn Vong it's proven that they live in the force but Just in a differnet spectrum of it. If you want an example on those Jacen an Anakin pulled it off with the YV's technollogy. So if the gods must be just a different way of interperting the force.

Not necessarily. The technology and the Vong themselves don't claim to be bound together with their gods. Not even the yammosk is considered a demi-god or whatever. It's just technology. The Vong aren't a part of their gods. And their gods aren't a part of them. Anakin and Jacen's skills with the technology merely proves that the Force can interect with them just like anything else -- you just have to go about it a different way. Now, if that different way involved praying to the aforementioned gods and performing sacrifices, then I might admit you have a point.


why (if it's another interpretation) would the Force tell them to attack the galaxy?

I personally don't believe it did. Besides, I have yet to hear of the Force actually *telling* someone to do something. This whole "invade the galaxy" thing is Shimra's and the prietsts' idea.


The Force and "The true Gods" are the same to me because the Force has the same sides to it like the gods do.

So far as I know, the only side to the Yuuzhan Vong gods is "Dark". And that may not even be considered a side. The only possible "Light" gods are the twin Lovers (or whatever they're called) since they represent love. And I even doubt that. Perhaps you could clarify?

I'm thinking I'll go with Dan on this one. I don't see any similarities.


That's just what I think. I could be wrong.

And so could I. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. :D

Ardent
12 December 2002, 07:36 PM
Sorry to break back in, but I just wanted to clarify on something Dan said:


The Force is impersonal, no faces or legends or anything. No god figures. The Yuuzhan Vong religion has many. The Yuuzhan Vong present a theory for the creation of the universe: Yun-Yuuzhan tears himself to pieces. The Force doesn't. In fact, the Force is not a religion, though there are institutions similar to religions set up around it. When I look at what we know of the Force and what we know of the Yuuzhan Vong belief system I see almost nothing alike.

While the Jedi outlook on the Force is impersonal, with no god figures, the Jedi have their legends and myths. There are legendary Jedi in the annals of the Order, and lost skills and powers.

When you think about it philosophically, the metaphor of Yun-Yuuzhan tearing himself to pieces could be corellated to the idea that the midi-chlorians were once a species, or to the theory that the unifying effect of the Force is based on it being one "thing" spread out among every lifeform.

All depends on where you want to go with the idea...

Dan Kyrinov
12 December 2002, 09:42 PM
Well, it's getting a little easier to see as you explain it, guys. I'd like to look at one quick aspect, a parallel I can draw that is not so far removed (I think). Yun-Yuuzhan made everything by shredding himself, but he's not dead according to the Yuuzhan Vong. What I wonder: is his 'body' now the universe? Or is he just really big and still has plenty more flesh to tear? (irreverent, I know.) My point is this: do the Yuuzhan Vong consider his body to be the universe? Do they consider him 'the universe?' I can see that paralleling the 'Force in all things' ideal, however, I would think we would see more 'seeing god in everything,' so to speak, than we do.

I still have trouble drawing the Force and the Yuuzhan Vong together in a similar vein, and it doesn't help that the head god in their pantheon is almost never detailed. Yun-Harla we got, same with the others, but the big torn-up guy is actually the least detailed of the gods. Drawing Force/Yun-Yuuzhan parallels will be a highly debatable topic, unless they delve into Big Guy in another book. Might make for good reading.

ElfWord
13 December 2002, 04:42 AM
Hope I don't step on any toes here but here are my thoughts:
1. The Force is not the creator of the universe. The universe created the force, it is an energy field (or a life-form if you want to go canon) that binds everything togther.
2. The Jedi do not worship the force. They are servants correct, but they do not see the force as their master. It is a guide, a friend, and an aid. They promote goodwill, justice, kindness, and happiness.
3. The YV serve the Gods because they are their masters. The YV Gods demand sacrifice, pain, and agressive fierceness. Anger, killing, suffering are of the dark side.
4. Just because the YV exist in the force doesn't mean their religion has a connection with it. Everything exists in the force, but I doubt each individual's beliefs have a connection with it.

Jerome Leavy
13 December 2002, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Dan Kyrinov
I don't think they share any similarities at all. Maybe you could point some out?
The Force is impersonal, no faces or legends or anything. No god figures. The Yuuzhan Vong religion has many. The Yuuzhan Vong present a theory for the creation of the universe: Yun-Yuuzhan tears himself to pieces. The Force doesn't. In fact, the Force is not a religion, though there are institutions similar to religions set up around it. When I look at what we know of the Force and what we know of the Yuuzhan Vong belief system I see almost nothing alike.


Having had to teach some religious concepts in my classes, I can see some conceptual similaries........

The Jedi believe that the Force binds all life, is in all living things. Life and the living is the vehicle that this particular faith uses to explain it's power. It follows a "belief through individual faith" concept (which explains the use of force points in the WEG version of the SWRPG by both force users AND non-force users). We have people of strong faith today that believe certain teaching of churches, and never belong or feel they shouldn't. A belief in the Force is both philsophy and faith.......continually reinforced through most of the NJO Series books.

The Yuuzhan Vong believe that death is an escape to be earned, and that life is suffering. That through that suffering and conquering of suffering and pain it reaffirms their life. The concepts seem to be a mix of some of the basic concepts of Buddism and Islam (life is suffering, holy war, etc.). They are very similar to the religious fanatics of today (there are some real correlations to the terrorists we are currently tracking down) and of the past (Seljik Turks.....Crusades). They believe in that anyone not of their faith are "infidels" and technology is "evil". This is not to say that these faiths are the basis for the YV, but the use of some individual ideas or terms is worth noting......

Anakin Solo finds a piece of the truth when trying to rescue Tahiri on Yavin 4. Jacen finds the link between the two in Traitor. Jaina in Rebel Dream. The YV use Pain as an evidence of their life (Jaina's conclusion in Rebel Dream). The Jedi do not believe in allowing irritation from distracting them (scratchy Jedi robes, etc). It's a long jump from one side to the other, but there are some correlations.

There are several references in the NJO series that point to either the YV being their own version of the "Dark Side" of the Force, or being Dark in a way beyond the normal range of senses of the Jedi. Bottom line: pain for the sake of pain, the desire of personal advancement at the expense of others, social status by the mistreatment of those under them, blatant use of malicious force for petty self-interest; all embody everything the Alliance/New Republic fought against with the Empire. Life and Death are linked......a cycle. This is related to in both the YV and Jedi beliefs. The Jedi view life as the "guiding light", and the YV choose pain and suffering. This makes it easier to relate the two beliefs as two different sides of the same coin. Evil can be hidden in the shroud of the unfamiliar apperance........but the concepts that define it will always be a constant.

Jerome Leavy
13 December 2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Dan Kyrinov
Well, it's getting a little easier to see as you explain it, guys. I'd like to look at one quick aspect, a parallel I can draw that is not so far removed (I think). Yun-Yuuzhan made everything by shredding himself, but he's not dead according to the Yuuzhan Vong. What I wonder: is his 'body' now the universe? Or is he just really big and still has plenty more flesh to tear? (irreverent, I know.) My point is this: do the Yuuzhan Vong consider his body to be the universe? Do they consider him 'the universe?' I can see that paralleling the 'Force in all things' ideal, however, I would think we would see more 'seeing god in everything,' so to speak, than we do.

I still have trouble drawing the Force and the Yuuzhan Vong together in a similar vein, and it doesn't help that the head god in their pantheon is almost never detailed. Yun-Harla we got, same with the others, but the big torn-up guy is actually the least detailed of the gods. Drawing Force/Yun-Yuuzhan parallels will be a highly debatable topic, unless they delve into Big Guy in another book. Might make for good reading.

If you look at each of the lesser gods as an individual trait of the Yun-Yuuzhan, then you have seen many perspectives of him. Remember everything, including all the lesser gods, were created when he shredded himself.:D

Lehesu
13 December 2002, 09:52 AM
Two problems:

1.The Force is not a religion .Qiu-Gon-Jinn once said this.

2.All religions are not the same.Just glanceing at their principles will tell you that

On a footnote,the quest for religion is the same as the quest for any other knowledge,since the pursuit of any knowledge is a search for the structure and meaning of the Universe.

Jedi Master Talon
13 December 2002, 10:20 AM
Wait look at what Jerome has said Life and Death are a cycle what if the "True Way" and the Force are just on oppisite ends. The YV worship Death and the Jedi serve Life. It's the cycle he was talking about that the jedi serve Life and YV serve the oppisite end Death.8o

Jerome Leavy
13 December 2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Lehesu
Two problems:

1.The Force is not a religion .Qiu-Gon-Jinn once said this.

2.All religions are not the same.Just glanceing at their principles will tell you that

On a footnote,the quest for religion is the same as the quest for any other knowledge,since the pursuit of any knowledge is a search for the structure and meaning of the Universe.


Thanks, Talon! That is the direction I was heading. It is through that cycle that common bonds can be found........if you step outside the box of your own thinking.

However, for the sake a great debate, I will step into the circle once again:


Two counters:

1. Qiu-Gon-Jinn wasn't always right......he was a Jedi, not the concensus of the entire Jedi Council. That was his opinion. Master Windu said that the Jedi are not warriors, yet they are called Jedi Knights. Remember, that many of the concepts of the Jedi changed as they got further in history from their battles with the Sith. There are other points that tie the Force to many of the faiths in the SW universe. Several references are made in the NJO series.

2. I agree, all religions are not the same. However, there are always common truths that many religions will acknowledge. Is the language or the cultural values the difference in the interpretation? If either is, then the religions are not that far apart as you would believe.

Your footnote is good; just over pursuit of any quest usually results in worse than the wrong answer. Fanatics are created through the absolute desire to find what you are looking for.:D