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Talonne Hauk
2 January 2003, 05:30 PM
This is just some off the cuff thinking, but I've been wondering about whether clonetroopers really are the template for stormtroopers. And I'm not sure. For one thing, there seems to be a dropoff in quality. For another, if clones were so wonderful, why didn't Palpatine clone Vader a few dozen times to have his own small cadre of uber-warriors? If there had been just a few more Vaders out there combing the galaxy, the Rebellion would not have lasted long at all, and there certainly would have been less troubles from the remaining Jedi. Hopefully Episode III will address some of these issues, but I was wondering what this community has to say about the subject.

Grimace
2 January 2003, 09:08 PM
So you want opinions, eh? Well...

*cracks knuckles*

Stormtroopers aren't clones. Many people say otherwise and point at this and that, but my opinion is that the bad guys we love to hate aren't clones. Now what happens to the Clonetroopers is something I can't quite decide upon. It could be that they are all but wiped out in battles during the "Clone War". Perhaps the remaining few form a training cadre for the stormtroopers, thus their similar armor. Perhaps they end up having some serious issues with being bossed around all of the time, and Palpatine has to wipe them out. In their place, he forms the stormtroopers, with suits quite similar, yet not exact.

Something's got to happen to the cloning facility, otherwise there IS nothing to stop the Emperor from simply cloning those that are most worthwhile to him. So I say that someone learns of the cloning facility and goes on a shooting rampage, devastating the clones. Regardless of how it is done, something's got to be done to stop or destroy the cloning facility.

I could go on and on about what could be done, but I'll stop there with the basics.

Those are my opinions, others may vary. ;)

Seghast
2 January 2003, 09:13 PM
Finally, someone else who thinks stormies aren't clones!

As for why the Emperor didn't clone a few Vaders... Well, I think he knew Vader was going to betray him eventually; just not quite so suddenly. A few Vaders would not have waited; they would have seized power from Palpatine, and he knew this.

Why make yourself a dozen traitors when you know you already have one?

Krad-edis
2 January 2003, 10:39 PM
Well put Seghast....

I think that if Palpatine wanted to make clones (which he did), he would keep them on the peon level. Even a few Dark Jedi could be very dangerous if cloned, and the last thing Palpatine wants is what he had to go through before: the elimination of his force sensitive and force wielding rivals.

There is something of note in the Dark Side Sourcebook, on page 110. It goes into detail about how Palpatine knew never to create Frankenstein, especially a whole legion of them. It is under "The Creation of Monsters", second paragraph.

Anything he made, had a flaw that he could expose, a safety measure for him. Vader was probably the only one who could stand up to Palpatine and win, (well, he did, but it really hurt), so the last thing he wanted was a "Vader clone coup". They would have really ruined his day.

Krad-edis
2 January 2003, 11:16 PM
On the note of Stormtroopers being clones, I really think that a lot of them were, but not all of them. I say that some were because after seeing how they are treated (like droids) and how they acted (murderers), you would think that it would take a certain type of person to become like that. They needed the absolutely most cold people to do this. Those who were hesitant were not needed, but those who were as cold and loyal as the Stormtroopers of Palpatine's vision, were copied into more and more hands of evil.

I have never read anything that suggests that they are all clones. So the first "archetype trooper" was a Jango re-run, very true, but as time goes on, new material is probably needed.

The gene pool of old Jango may be good, but soon the moves and tactics of the Jango goons would be predictable by Seperatists, Rebels, Jedi, or whatever foe the troops would be fighting. A new batch (including born humans, and DNA from several select hosts), with new ideas, tactics, and or programs would be beneficial, and offer an increase of candidates to the officer corps of Palpatine's military and would be needed to wage war on those who threatened Palpatine's New Order.

While I don't think old Palpatine the dictator had an "Open Door Policy" for ideas, he probably was still smart enough to listen (spy) and see who actually ran the show when he was supposedly not looking. Those loyal became his officers, those who were dangerous thinkers were killed or imprisoned (most likely the first). He probably took from the best of the loyalist officers to create more and more clones.....and kept born human enlistees or conscriptees as potentials for officers and more clones. The cycle would continue and the best of the best troops would be blazing a path through any ground force that got in the way.

More and more batches of non-stagnating clones, with plenty of hopefuls for more clones of batches of non-stagnating clones is how I see it if this makes any sense to anyone else. In my campaigns I have both born and cloned Stormies. This has given my players the chance to even play Stormies, and not all have the same name of Keith, Bob or Tim.

Anyone can take a look at the official site (starwars.com) and take a look about what it has to say about clones and stormtroopers. In this caption, (http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/stormtroopers/index.html) clones were not even mentioned until I searched over in the EU portion. It was Thrawn who used the Spaartil cylinders to replinish the stormtroopers that were lost, but I don't see anything saying all or nothing. So I am pretty much set on some but not all.

Officially, I don't see much pointing to them all being clones. Are some of them clones?.....I think so, I mean if dozens of Stormtroopers are killed in combat or by a mistake of an officer, it is just like throwing out a several cartons of rotten eggs. No messes, no families asking questions, no one really knows or cares. What to do if enlistment is down......create clones of the die hard killers.....how is that for retention of service?

Well I wrote myself into an "I don't know for sure". I do know how I run things pertaining to Stormies in my campaigns, and as Grimace said, opinions may vary. If anyone does have anything official saying all of or none of the Stormtroopers are clones, please let me know. I will name them all "Tim" if they are clones. :D

Reverend Strone
2 January 2003, 11:20 PM
It's worth thinking also about where these clones would be coming from if indeed Storm Troopers were all clones.

The Empire is pretty much an all human club. In AOTC Palpatine has done all he can to reradicate the control big alien companies have over the fate of the Galaxy by manipulating them into forming the Confederacy and effectively martyring themselves upon the new found might of the Republic Army. The cloning facility we saw in AOTC was on Kamino- another alien industry.

Personally, I can't see the might of the anti-alien Empire having to rely on the Kaminoans to stock their army.

If Storm Troopers are indeed clones, then my guess would be they aren't from Kamino, which I believe will is too big a potential liability for Palpatine to leave as it is. Whatever Kamino's fate- be it destroyed, occupied, enslaved or whatever, the Empire's soldiers will have to come from a non-alien controlled facility.

If they are clones, there's no reason to believe that they come from the old Jango stock of the Kaminoan series. Perhaps they're an inferior version- either due to degradation deriving from successive copying or a less impressive original template individual or individuals. Were this the case, it could explain why Storm Troopers ain't all that.

The other scenario I see is one in which the Galaxy sees the way things are going, and a wide-scale recruitment operation begins with folks heading off to sign up. It's pretty safe to say that the officer stock of the Empire isn't clone based given the wide range of personnel we saw in the classic trilogy, so perhaps the Storm Troopers are recruits as well- again eliminating the need for the Empire to rely on potentially vulnerable cloning facilities or the good-will of alien business partners like the Kaminoans.

This is my favoured theory, because as far as I see it, the clones served the purpose of creating a vast army very quickly. Once that power base has been established, their usefulness versus their potential vulnerabilities may not make them a worthwhile long term prospect- plus all the references in the classsic trilogy to clones seem to imply a past tense.

Just some of my thoughts, for what they're worth. It's all pretty speculative really. There's only one man who knows for certain- and he ain't sayin.:)

Codym
3 January 2003, 02:53 AM
Just a quick note that in the Clones novelization, there is some dialogue about keeping Jango on Kamino because of the need for fresh DNA samples on a regular basis. So while the ST's may be clones, they are definately not all Jango.

My personal feelings are that it will be a percentage split of a small number of clones and a large complement of regular humans. But that said, I just don't see the Kamino cloning operation surviving. It just seems like a too big and very tempting target for the Rebellion.

Talonne Hauk
3 January 2003, 09:03 PM
I understand what you guys are saying about Palpatine not wanting a possible coup by Vader and a small contingent of his clones, but a clone can be bred docility and subservience, as evidenced in AOTC. I think this is a point Lucas should either address or have a writer make sense of it in an off-screen novel.
That excerpt from the novel explains quite a bit, actually. Stormtroopers are still better than the average human, but they stunk compared to our heroes. The Clonetroopers were a pretty formidable fighting group, on the other hand, more so than the stormtroopers. I think a mixture makes sense, too. If you look at any scene in the first trilogy, the troopers were of various heights. Instead of explaining it away as a lack of CGI, it actually makes sense for there to be a mixture of birthed and cloned stormtroopers. And besides, only Leia made notice of Luke being too short to be a stormtrooper.

Krad-edis
3 January 2003, 09:38 PM
Those are some good points Talonne Hauk!

Can you imagine a docile Vader, or if there was serious personality alterations with it as well?

Palpatine: Torture the rebel informant, until she tells us what she has been telling them for some time now.

Docile Clone Vader: I think it would be more constructive to ask her about her parents and how they are doing.

Palpatine: What does that have to do with the missing plans?

Docile Clone Vader: Absolutely nothing Master. She looks sad. She probably misses her family and I am just trying to make her feel more at home here. We really do need to get some 100 Watt light bulbs in here. That would make it much more cozy. Do you know what just occurred to me.....

Palpatine: (reaches for button on side of throne, comlink switches on) Commander, get me real Vader. I have a job for him. Tell him to bring his lightsaber up here to my throne room.

Commander (scared voice): Your highness, Lord Vader is on Sullust looking for Rebel remnants. I will contact him immediately.

Palpatine (shakes his head in disgust): I guess I will continue to listen to this for now. Those Spaarti cylinders need to be fixed. They have two levels of docility, regular and ultra. I see what ultra has done to my apprentice, so my next go will be regular....or I might just have his vocabulator portion of his mask shut off. That might be more bearable.

:)

Reed
7 January 2003, 10:15 AM
I think that stormies are not clones. If you look at them in the OT they converse with each other they have different height variations, and their commanders aren't clones. In AOTC the clones act like robots and when they do talk its about battle, exactly what they were made for, plus even the commanders are clones. Seems to me something has to happen to resort to regular humans.

I have a number of theories on this:

1) The clones age twice as fast as normal, this to me seems like a major flaw in their use. It's probably extremely expensive to be constantly restoring your clone troopers because they get arthritis so darn fast. So the clones may end up having a genetic defect put in as a failsafe of some kind or something which may be used in III.

2) My second theory is that the cloning facilities are destroyed and they have to replace clones with regular humans, brainwashed of course.

3) My third theory is a theory I thought would be easily integrated into the film without taking up much time. In the event that the cloning facility is destroyed on Kamino (perhaps the final battle of the Clone Wars will be fought on Kamino), the remaining clones will have to go through regular selective breeding, in order to keep their troops up over the next many years between III and ANH. This could explain why stormies are so much less efficient because the Jango genes eventually get watered down after so many years of copulation. I like this idea, I thought of it after they posted the answer to the question of whether or not clones could reproduce on StarWars.com

Anyways hopefully GL won't do a half-assed job on episode III and it will answer all of our crazy questions.

Durian Keldrona
14 January 2003, 04:50 PM
In the Dark horse clone wars comic Kamino is attacked by separatists in the first issue so that would explain the stormtroopers not being clones.

Jaggard
15 January 2003, 10:20 AM
It was covered by a comic but it's always been a possibility that I saw. clones are genetically identical. One small cold virus that may kill one in a million humans comes along and if it kills one clone barring medical intervention it kills them all (or all that come in contact with it).
I'm more curious that some one else with delusions of grandure didn't use cloning. I mean Dooku left the Jedi around the time of Episode 1 so what's the problem in waiting for the right moment grabbing a hunk of Maul make a set of twins and train them against each other. Now dooku could choose between the overthrow the current sith or build a sith empire again breaking the rule of two.

stoic_75
20 January 2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Seghast
Finally, someone else who thinks stormies aren't clones!

As for why the Emperor didn't clone a few Vaders... Well, I think he knew Vader was going to betray him eventually; just not quite so suddenly. A few Vaders would not have waited; they would have seized power from Palpatine, and he knew this.

Why make yourself a dozen traitors when you know you already have one?


First, I don't think the Empire era stormtroopers are clones either. They are enlisted men and conscripts from other worlds. After the Clone Wars, cloning will be viewed as dangerous and immoral. I am of course assuming Lucas shares those beliefs, sigh.


Cloning Vader would not work out exactly like you think. You cant just take a drop of someone's blood and make an exact copy that acts the same way. First you would end up with babies. Babies with no memories or experiences. Then you have a batch of 10 yr old Anakins "yippppeeee" and then finally the pouty lipped angst-filled teenager we all know and love.

What would be missing is the stimulus that makes Anakin into Darth Vader: the death of his mother. The clones would have no mother. No emotional ties. No anger, no hate, etc.

In Jango's case, all of the infants save one were trained at birth to become soldiers. Yet none of them became bounty hunters. The reason for that is they didn't have the same experiences as Jango or the wish to become one.

Codym
20 January 2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by stoic_75

After the Clone Wars, cloning will be viewed as dangerous and immoral. I am of course assuming Lucas shares those beliefs, sigh.


Clones being viewed as dangerous and immoral? Hardly. If anything, cloning will be hailed a great success after the wars, though too expensive and impractical to continue. That is of course, if Kamino still exists at the end of Episode 3.

I was so glad when Lucas choose not to enter the whole Genetic Engineering debate with AOTC (in fact I loved how subversive he was in their use as the movie's heroes,) and I hope it stays that way. Star Wars should never be reduced to "moral of the moment."

I was also glad that Lucas was one of the few in the genre to actually use a more realistic version cloning, instead of the usual photocopying you see on screen. Not bad for a movie that isn't really science fiction.

stoic_75
20 January 2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Codym


Clones being viewed as dangerous and immoral? Hardly. If anything, cloning will be hailed a great success after the wars, though too expensive and impractical to continue. That is of course, if Kamino still exists at the end of Episode 3.




I dunno. I get the feeling that there will be anti-clone sentiment after the war is over. And cloning looks very practical and cost effecient from what I've seen of the labs on Kamino.

Codym
20 January 2003, 06:40 PM
It becomes impractical due to the time it takes to grow clones. It would be more easier to start training regular soldiers to bolster numbers lost in the clone wars (which would be quite a lot,) rather than to wait another five years for the clones. From the anicdotal evidence scattered through Episode 2, cloning sounds very expensive, and probably wound be concidered by the Republic if it was not for the premade army waiting delivery.

Darth Fury
23 January 2003, 06:17 PM
In the case of Dorsk 81 (NJO) he is the eighty first clone of the original Dorsk (duh, I know), but the interesting thing is that he says force-sensitivity is very rare in clones.:p

Kryl'thar
10 February 2003, 12:38 PM
A cry rises up across the galaxy. Everyone is upset that clones are being used to protect them and decent hard working humans are sitting on the sidelines. The labor unions demand that clones are phased out 10% per year with real citizens of the republic. ;)

In all honesty, I'm betting on two possibilities. Either the storm troopers are clones, and their height and behavoiral diversity results from various stocks of humans being used (since Jango is dead they'll need another template), or Stormies are humans that were drafted to fill the dwidling ranks of the clone troopers are the war progressed.

Vanger Chevane
10 February 2003, 02:46 PM
one of the novels, it says that the Spaarti Cylinders used for cloning were highly illegal, and that Palpatine had 2 tucked away in his Mount Tantiss Secret Warehouse. It also implied that he wasn't using them much, if at all.

Also clones were said to be reather unreliable & unstable. Thrawn had figured out one of the main problems & found a workaround for his cloned troops.


This implies that the clones are going to do something disastrous, and/or prove to be so dangerous that they're very stringently outlawed after the Clone Wars.

Reverend Strone
10 February 2003, 03:33 PM
Sure, but given that that information comes from the EU novels, I wouldn't bet on Lucas feeling bound to following it to the letter.

Pel
11 February 2003, 07:31 PM
This all plays right into the hands of Darth Sidious (aka Jar-Jar, but that's a completely different topic.

The Republic now has an immense clone army with which to fight the Galactic Civil War. Couple of problems, though:

Most folks are probably a little scared or intimidated by the thought of an entire army of clones running around, whose only purpose is to destroy things and follow orders (not much in the free thought department).

Kamino (only source of said clones) is an obvious target for the Confederacy. Once it's crippled or destroyed, other more genetically diverse troops must be found.

This is a perfect opportunity for Sidious to not only rid himself of the clones (who seem to at least have a sense of decency and honor) but to indoctrinate legions of human troops loyal only to him.

It fits perfectly with his style of playing both sides off each other, to weaken the whole, and create an environment ripe for his ascension to the throne.

CorpBoy
12 February 2003, 03:36 AM
I'm one of those that believe the clone troopers are first generation stormtroopers. I doubt Sidious would have any problems keeping them around. They are, after all, genetically programmed to follow orders without question, and Palpatine IS the head of the Republic right now. Also, the clones troopers seem stable enough for general use.

What I do see Palpatine doing is creating a traditional Army and use the clone troopers as elite forces, first strike units, etc. in much the same way that stormtroopers were used.

To stage an attack on Kamino, the Confederacy would have to learn a couple of things first: (1) that it's a clone army (not hard if you take a few helmets off dead clones) and (2) where the clones are being created. That might be the hardest part. It wasn't entirely easy for Obi-wan to learn about Kamino after all.

Silent
12 February 2003, 10:27 AM
One thing Paly may have done is to just go and take the training and indoctrination technology from Kamino, and just used that on conscripted troops: after all, this would help eliminate the 8-year wait while new clones are made, and would probably go better with the PR department as well. As for Kamino itself, I doubt the Confederacy would find it too hard to pin-point the location of Kamino if they really tried because after Palpatine introduced the clone army the Senate would really want to know where it came from, and it wouldn't be too hard to hack into a Senator's computer or something. Anyway, if Obi-Wan could get the information from somewhere, I imagine that the Confederacy could manage it eventually...

CorpBoy
12 February 2003, 10:45 AM
Stormtroopers are on a level of loyalty that far surpases anything you would get from conscripted troops. They cannot be briber or coerced into betraying the Empire, and mere conscripts might be all to happy to do so. Actually, the fact that clonetroopers are totally obedient to orders makes me think they are related in some part to the stormtroopers.

Maybe Palpatine managed to keep Kamino a secret. Maybe he kept a very large standing fleet in the Kamino system to ward off attacks. Maybe he build a similar facility on another (even more remote) planet.

Just some thoughts,
CorpBoy

Durian Keldrona
12 February 2003, 12:16 PM
well In the Dark horse comics Kamino is destroyed.

Vanger Chevane
12 February 2003, 02:33 PM
If the Empire were to take over the Kamino Facility, it may very well be sabotaged by the Kaminoans themselves.

If I were running some sort of factory about to be taken over, I'd do my best to introduce some sort of critical flaw into the production process.

That way if I were to rebuild by business elsewhere, my product would be significantly superior to that produced by some rival from the captured facility, even though the equipment and procedures may be almost completely identical. I'd want to turn the Free Facility they took from me into as big a loser for them as possible.

But I'm kinda vindictive when it comes to Business. :D

Reed
13 February 2003, 02:46 PM
To me it seems possible that Kamino will have already have been destroyed before the opening scene of Episode III. It may be mentioned in the opening crawl, something like:

The galaxy is in turmoil. The Clone Wars have raged across the galaxy, decimating planets and destroying civilizations. The Seperatists have made a number of large blows against the Republic. Kamino, the source of the Republic's Clone Armies, has been eliminated among many other worlds. But all is not lost, for the Republic has made its fair share of blows towards the Confederacy.

After years of conlict the Confederate Fleet has been reduced to a shadow of its former self. The Seperatists have found the location of a secret back-up cloning facility on the small world of Sigma Volcanus. The Seperatists have mobilzed its forces in a final gambit against the Republic.

The Jedi now have been sent to Sigma Volcanus with what few resources are available to prevent this attack that may either crush the Republic's ensuing victory or turn the tide to the Confederacy's favor...

I think this is a viable opening crawl for the movie, it also introduces the lava planet Sigma Vocanus (which was taken from an early script of ROTJ) which is also the probable setting of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel at the climax of the film.

If Kamino is destroyed, which I think it will be because if the stormtroopers were clones than why wouldn't the Rebels take out the cloning facilities? If Kamino is destroyed it should be done early in the movie as the final battle of the Clone Wars or it can be done this way and the secret cloning facility on Sigma Volcanus could be destroyed during the battle but the Seperatists will be eliminated.

In the aftermath of the Clone Wars the Republic will want to keep the army in place for possible future threats, and anti-Jedi sentiments may crop up as well, seeing as how the clone army was able to stop the seperatists and the Jedi were, in a way, responsible for the Clone Wars. So to restore the armies to their former size many people will be drafted into the Imperial... er... Republic army.

Think what you want, but I think its a good speculation.