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one_any
6 January 2003, 07:37 AM
Dooku - hardly
See below..















How about Emperor Palpatine?
It all makes sense, Palpatine's long term strategic plans, the most powerful unknown Jedi is capable of anything. The engineered situation on Naboo, his possible links with Jabba on Tatooine, his 10/20/100 years of planning, creating Anakin & Amidala's destiny's, to realise his empire and it's succesors.

More to follow...

Talonne Hauk
6 January 2003, 02:22 PM
In a word; doubtful. Lucas is well-known for wanting the prequels to mirror his original trilogy in plot development. That way, the audience will see that Anakin and Luke Skywalker both led similar lives, had similar choices, etcetera. The deeper story is supposed to be how just a small number of bad choices can lead one down the road to perdition. If Palpatine was Anakin's father it would have been revealed in AoTC. Besides, Lucas went through quite a bit of wordy exposition to explain Anakin being a 'vergence' in the Force. It's not like Lucas to throw well-established ideas away, no matter how bad they may be.:D

Jaggard
7 January 2003, 11:12 AM
1) this has at least two other threads out there.
2) luke lost family in 4 anakin in 2 reintroduction of missing or unknown family takes place next movie or 3 to 5 years later.
3) a vergence in the force "around a person?" the question by the council seems to imply vergence in people is simple those with talent. The fact that they say even yoda doesn't have the same level of midichlorians implies nothing more then that new high potential is achieved. The only thing to say he is different is his mothers reply as to his father. Some take it to me a kind of christ child, apparently Qui-gon too. Some who have trouble with this story fitting with the rest of the universe say it means little more then no man helped her so no man can claim to be his father, any 'father' would be little more then a sperm donor. Then again she may not know she had been experimented on if that was the intention of those like palpatine who saught the key to bring down the Jedi, a false messia (sp?) and one with greater force potential then any other and a factor to later be called upon to complete a turn to the darkside after years of slavery and emotional attachments gone bad.
4)if you can find the other threads you'll get some good insights. Including mine 8o
such things as annakins mother being a slave not yet on tatooine about the time of his conception; as was Jango Fett. And it adds an more to the fact that a jedi killed Annakins father while annakin was only yards away protecting Jedi and destracted by Padme. And it leads to links between Two of the most powerful families actually being one, the fetts and skywalkers (both with a penchant for armor and revenge). It also means that the decideing force of the clone armies in the galaxies future and the empire was begun as an extention of that family line. Millions of uncle/brothers mean the Fett/Skywalker family line did infact shape the Galaxy.
5) as far as the chosen one or whatever, my new theory is that it wasn't really vader or Luke but Yoda. We know nothing of his parentage he has the second highest midichlorians that we know of it's obvious he is powerful, and his acts allowed annakin to survive in the clone wars and allowed his son to be born and end the empire and reboot the force traditions light and dark in the future after the movies and only glimpsed in the Thrawn series. This seems to become more apparent in the new jedi order novels.
so waddaya think.

Grim Fantango
8 January 2003, 06:58 PM
1. True
2. True again, if he does have family...
3. Not likely, any darkness preinduced into Anakin would have been found by Qui Gon or the Jedi Council. And Qui Gon would have sensed the lie or i guess general wrongness of her telling him that there was no father. Additionally, Anakin would not have falllen to the dark side save for the fact that his mother died in his arms. Something not even a Sith lord could make happen without a single Jedi noticing. And before you try that whole "The Jedi's ability to use the force has diminished" crap, Anakin would have been able to feel the dark side affecting the situation...
4. Sorry dude, but Anakin is "The One". Meaning no father, no matter how tatical. And the Midichlorian level is so high that there would havta be at least one VERY powerful Jedi parent. Plus, only "The One" will bring balance to the force, and in turn, The Galaxy, not millions.
5. If Yoda was "The One, then the Prophsey would be fulfilled, there would be balance in the force, and Qui Gon wouldn't have givin a second thought about Anakin being "The One". Because the one had already been found. But if Anakin is "The One", then everything fits. Becasue there is no balance to the force, He has no father, and he is the most Powerful (potentially) Jedi.

My name is Grim Fantango, and I defend the Status Quo.

Jaggard
9 January 2003, 11:52 AM
3) I never said he had dark from the begining. I said he lived a live where even the council saw in him things that made them turn him down. Only his act of saving a world and the newly realised threat of the reemergance of the sith seemed to make the choice of such a powerful child an eceptable idea (preventing the sith from seeking him, to gain a powerful jedi ?). He's not eveil from the get go but there are many factors that make a change likely (cause it happens) "There is much fear in you... Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." 3b) it wasn't a lie. My Mother is Sue Jaggard and My father is Jerry Jaggard, despite being born to Kenneth and Opal. My family legaly and emotionally and physically and historically is Jaggard, only my genes disagree and even then not by much. and you are half right, the darkside clouds things like how hard would it be to hide involvement in a tusken attack, 'here desert scum come and get me' chase esues into shmis path where original target is gone but here is one of the same race. Or more likely see the path of the tusken make it so Shmi has company and in being freindly doesn't get to do her task in the area closest to the tuskens and Just as the tuskens are walking into the area remind her about the unfinished work but prevent her (mind trick or distraction) from realising the tuskens are in the area she need to enter. And You have it kinda reversed, yoda felt the darkside in what Annakin was doing but Annakin didn't seem to realise what he was doing and all he seemed to feel later was mild regret about what he'd done, he doesn't seem to realise the connection between negative feeling and the dark side, perhaps because he missed the formative years as a jedi student. So the Jedi power isn't deminished but clouded, they sensed hate and suffering from Annie but not the reasons and then it disappeared off their radar. Annakin felt it was what had to be done in his anger and did it, not drawing on Dark side abilities but simply with vengence as a motive. (no debate intended but were the crusades good or bad, Some knights saw barbarians in a holly land desecrating that place and hence whole sale slaughter on all sides, or for that matter europeans land in america and cause much suffering among the native in the name of destiny and now Native americans are a minority shuffled to reservations and remembered for scalping cowboys when it was europeans who inveted the scalping to prove how many they had 'cleaned' out of 'their' terratory) Some people just don't see the evil they do. No darkside was needed to do all that was done, and we don't know that her death was the only cause, he was a pretty aggressive person about his master holding him back, and I get the feeling that if shmi made it into a hutt harem or just lost a body part (maybe even her mind) that both the new owner and Watto would have undergone some suffering and Annakin would have to give his mothers care to someone else or leave the Jedi. It looks to me like something was bound to happen somewhere that would set him off.
4) Why cause that's how this seem to be? We fell for that with the death of Lukes father at the hands of Vader. And as far as there having to be at least one force parent... Exactly, when was the last time shmi showed any talent whatsoever? So where did the concentration of Midis come from if it was Jango fett? The man survived the wholesale slaughter of the madalorians by Jedi and even took several jedi out without a blaster (it could be deflected back at him) his reflexes and piloting would make him an exceptional pod racer (which humans outside the jedi seem to lack the ability for) and the aura of fear/power he projects and his luck at surviving tremendous odds in a dangerous job in a universe where most like him don't last long. Sure he doesn't move things but neither did an untrained Annakin or Luke. While truthfully I wouldn't be surprised if Annakin were the one (virgin birth and all), I'd hate for such a bad idea to remain unchallanged in the events of the Star Wars universe. You also seem to be making a mistake that the jedi made and others in the universe. The Fate of the Republic and the balance of the force are not one and the same. As the story sit now the Jedi are serving a government run by the sith, and they are warring against those that don't want to be a part of the sith government. In this case The jedi and republic should be on opposite sides, to war with tose because they want to be self governed and not a part of your group is not exactly peace and justice stuff, now if they know the rebels were going to slaughter and rape billions then yeah but at the time of all out war it looked more like it was a cold war, each side arming to protect itself. So the clones shaping the fate of the galaxy as part of a family has nothing to do with the force.
5) Who gave any indication at what time the Chosen one would change the balance. Being born the chosen one and found by the Jedi and raised as a Jedi training other jedi who would play a part in the future of the jedi. Then watching them all die through error on his and theri parts and betrayal by one of their own. Then finding and training the betrayers son to redeem his father who then destroys the last reminate of the Jedi/sith orders and paves the way for slightly more grey orders of each in the new jedi order books (the dark jedi students are not ravagers of worlds and enemies to the Jedi). And allowing the the truely neutral force weilders to come into being realises the balance to the force. Not good not evil. While all these acts are done by others they are in part possible by yoda, and in others directly influanced. We know nothing of yodas origin and parentage. Less is known of the profacey but I would have to question any who say that power is the factor here. Certainly yoda is powerful but do you have to have the highest potential for power to be great and be the one?

My name is Jaggard and I make you think about the status Quo.:D
this is fun. I don't know if I believe all of what I said but it makes you think.

Jaggard
9 January 2003, 12:17 PM
It just occured to me. No where does it mention that having one parent is the prerequisite for the chosen one. Just that he or she is the creation of the will of the force through the midichlorians. I mean in a universe of aliens there must be some that reproduce asexually, does that make them a race of chosen ones? The requirement is that they be a construct of the force be that through 1 parent or 5. and in the end I have to ask are not all creatures a construct of the force in some way. If all thing that happen are the will of the force then all those in the universe are the will of the force. Hows that for throwing open the doors to speculation about the chosen one?

Corr Terek
9 January 2003, 05:06 PM
Where did you get the idea that Jango Fett was a slave on Tatooine at the same time as Shmi? I know for a fact that's not true.

Jaggard
10 January 2003, 09:08 AM
reread it Shmi was a slave NOT YET on tatooine around the time Jango was a slave.

Corr Terek
10 January 2003, 01:03 PM
But...Jango Fett was never a slave. If you don't believe me, read the Jagno Fett comics at the official Star Wars site. He was orphaned around the age of 11 or so, and the mainline Mandalorians took him in because he had helped them escape a group of insurgent Mandalorians.

I was just curious as to where you got that idea from.

mojo1701
10 January 2003, 02:02 PM
Maybe the father (whomever it may be) used Move Object to... 8o

...
I'm just saying





.....


Disclaimer: Please don't misinterpret what i'm trying to say, or hold it against me, or think I'm some kind of pervert. I am, but I don't want you to think that.

Jaggard
11 January 2003, 10:40 AM
Jango gained command of the mandalorians and was the only one on active duty to survive when a trap by the death watch sent the jedi against them. The jedi lead by Dooku were horrified at what they had done but had to finish their task so turn Jango over to the planets leader who betrayed him to the death watch. The leader made jango a slave and years later escaped slavery when the ship he was on was attacked by pirates (I think) and made his way back to his gear and sought revenge. From openseason 3+4

Corr Terek
11 January 2003, 12:27 PM
Jango gained command of the mandalorians and was the only one on active duty to survive when a trap by the death watch sent the jedi against them. The jedi lead by Dooku were horrified at what they had done but had to finish their task so turn Jango over to the planets leader who betrayed him to the death watch. The leader made jango a slave and years later escaped slavery when the ship he was on was attacked by pirates (I think) and made his way back to his gear and sought revenge. From openseason 3+4

My bad, then. But I still think the idea of Jango being Anakin's father is...farfetched, at best.

stoic_75
12 January 2003, 12:49 PM
Danger! SPOILER!

Anakin's father is in truth, Anakin's mother.

-Edited by Moderator-

(Oh wait , that was Cartman's father. Sorry. My bad.)

mojo1701
12 January 2003, 02:15 PM
They're called hermaphrodites, stoic_75.

Grim Fantango
12 January 2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Jaggard
You have it kinda reversed, yoda felt the darkside in what Annakin was doing but Annakin didn't seem to realise what he was doing and all he seemed to feel later was mild regret about what he'd done, he doesn't seem to realise the connection between negative feeling and the dark side, perhaps because he missed the formative years as a jedi student. So the Jedi power isn't deminished but clouded, they sensed hate and suffering from Annie but not the reasons and then it disappeared off their radar.


Not anger, pain, great pain. They sensed the pain from his momma's death, and that pain turned to rage, but the jedi sense has been dulled to the darkside (answer in EPIII).


Originally posted by Jaggard
Where did the concentration of Midis come from?


The whole thing is that he was conceived by Midis, no father, if he had a father, then he would NOT be the "Chosen One"


Originally posted by Jaggard
Less is known of the profacey but I would have to question any who say that power is the factor here. Certainly yoda is powerful but do you have to have the highest potential for power to be great and be the one?


Yes, it does, it's the whole point. Power is the reason Anakin is so special, and the reason he's suppose to bring balance to the force and the force alone. A clone army could not be related to anakin either becasue he has no father. And, like I said before, if Yoda had no father himself, then Qui Gon would not have made a big deal


Originally posted by Jaggard
My name is Jaggard and I make you think about the status Quo.:D
this is fun. I don't know if I believe all of what I said but it makes you think.

My name is Grim Fantango, and I defend the Status Quo.

Ha, sorry, the end is a left over from Debate last year...

Jaggard
13 January 2003, 09:46 AM
okay gonna try again.
1)the point is annakin was a mouse trap that any conflict of emotion and jedi code could have set off.
2) midi's = construction workers, momma has fifty construction workers and they start working. All they have are girl block, pink and girly (:rolleyes: ) they can only build a girl chosen one. Fifty construction workers build a girl chosen one and then they must give her more constructionworkers then her ordinary momma or the most powerful jedi. So now we have to make constructionworkers too. Plain and simple where does the surpluss of Midi come from. To be the chosen one you have more then yoda but you can only draw from you force 'tone deaf' mother. even if Midi could reproduce which there is a strong lack of evidence for it would take years to build up enough and then Momma would be weilding them before Annie got them. Two sources who find themselves less 'lucky' after the deed makes it easier to see. momma has fifty who produce twenty five more dad has eighty and produces fourty more each parent ends up with ten he ends with 185 and each persons work to increase the numbers afterward. But if midi can't reproduce (which would make it easier to become more powerful by just using a midi aprodisiac or swiping someone elses) then you need two powerful but latent force adepts who then become almost force dead when they transfer. The Midi Have to come from somewhere. Yes they create annie in this theory but creating frankinstien and bringing him to life are not the same think; you could make a live annie but what good is that without a flood of midis, and where do you get more.
3) take the idea of a messiah does that messiah have to be 8 feet tall and built like Arnold (i'll be back). No, infact stories often have the moral that might doesn't make right; David vs. Goliath. So little artoo with the force ability of a rock could be the chosen one. It is also said that power corrupts, and the quest for power is the route to the darkside. And as far as whether the midis made him. It is the WILL of the force or the midis. It was the will of the pharohs to build a pyramid but I doubt that the Pharohs lifted those blocks all by themselves. they directed others to do it. So if the will of the force or the midis was to make a chosen one, make it fate that mamma and dad meet, or that someone build an astromech.
So it doesn't eliminate having a father it just sounds like it. either way could work.
The gift that vader had that made him the one to bring balance wasn't in or of himself, it was the ability to have Luke who changed everything. if annie is the chosen one it's not his strength with the force that brings balance it his genes and role in the fate of his children in the galaxy.
Now as to yoda. 1) A good chosen one wouldn't think himself special. 2) Yoda is 800 years old. His parentage is so far gone that few would ever know it. And who's to say that yoda wasn't an orphan found at a battle sight or left on the Jedi step. We don't even know if yodas species requires two parents to have children. These three options lead to possibilities of one parent births; which we don't know for certain is a requirement (Dooku thought that someone like him was more likely to be the chosen one, so obviously there are ways to interprit their meaning). 3) yoda has great power but also great skill, patience, and balance within himself.

Just trying to point out how esle to look at it. Some say that Christ met the requirements of the messiah. The requirements in original hebrew don't say born to a virgin but but to a young girl. The word chosen in translation was a valid choice but it was one of several. So it met the requirement but so would a child born to a 12 year old girl and a man. Maybe Annakin is the chosen one but such literal interpretations of vaugue referances to a profacey that may or maynot be in it's original language could be viewed in other ways.

NO OFFense intended to anyones religious beliefs but we are talking religious parrallels.

Corr Terek
13 January 2003, 02:47 PM
Some say that Christ met the requirements of the messiah. The requirements in original hebrew don't say born to a virgin but but to a young girl. The word chosen in translation was a valid choice but it was one of several. So it met the requirement but so would a child born to a 12 year old girl and a man.

I've heard that argument before, and I'll bet I can make a better case of the original translation being correct than you could with what you just stated. But, since this isn't a religious debate, I won't go into that.

At any rate, there's no need for genetics to come into play at all with Anakin's birth. I would think of it more along the lines of the Midi-chlorians having impregnated Shmi if anything -- making Anakin really a kind of crossbreed, if you will.

Apparently, the Chosen One prophecy states that the Chosen One would be conceived by the Midi-chlorians. If you want to play real word games, we could definitely say that Anakin isn't the Chosen One because the Midi-chlorians didn't conceive him -- his mom did.

But obviously that's not how things are working. Anakin is extremely powerful because he is more than just human -- in a sense he is Force-imbued, a direct manefestation of the Force if there ever was one.

P.S. Just thought I'd post a little disclaimer here -- my response to Jagged's comment about religion above was in no way intended to hijack this thread or be offensive. I took no offense at his remark, and hope that he takes no offense at mine.

Wedge in Red2
13 January 2003, 07:34 PM
I like the idea of Darth Sidious. There are a couple of ideas I had on this subject.

1) Sith are known to have techniques to erase memories (see Kyp Durron). Sidious could have "done the deed" with Shmi then erased her memory.

2) Consider the entire "Palpatine is a clone of Darth Sidious" theory. Often used as an explanation as to why the Jedi didn't sense Palpatine as a Sith. What if, rather than a clone, Palpatine is Sidious' twin. We know the Skywalker genes have a habit of creating twins - Luke and Leia, Jaina and Jacen. If Palpy and Sidious were twins, it would give credibility to the possibility that one of them was Anakins father.

My problem is I don't like the vergence in the force explanation - too close to christianity, while Lucas originally based the Jedi on Daoism. Now, he's free to mix his religions, but surely he can come up with something more original? So much of his stuff is just rehashed Earth ideas (don't get me started on that). Is he all out of original thoughts?

Anyway, my 2cr. And no, I don't actually believe that stuff, I'm just putting it forward as a theory...

Jon