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Vreel Kudarin
7 January 2003, 12:12 PM
I've wondered for a long time why we don't see same-sex relationships in Star Wars, considering the fact that there are plenty of different-species relationships, and males and females seem to have equal rights (possibly even 4,000 years before Yavin in the Tales of the Jedi Era). I just think that it would be something refreshing, relevant, and contemporary to have in some of the fiction (Yes, I know Star Wars is hardly a boundry-pusher in terms of fiction).

I imagine it may because of a number of reasons. America is the biggest market for Star Wars, and there are some religious areas who would not be happy with having homosexuals in popular literature. Star Wars would get bad press if they tried it, and probably lose some sales because of it. Another reason may be that authors think that homosexual 'heroes' or 'heroines' would not go down well with readers.

If anything, I would have thought a few lesbian Twi'leks would increase the old sales due to the target market being young White males! ;)

Some people may be offended at the suggestion of having same-sex relationships in Star Wars, but frankly, I'm offended that there aren't any.

I'd love to hear any views on this subject. Seeing as 1 in 10 people is gay (according to the figures I've heard repeatedly) you would have thought a few characters in the novels or films would've come out by now. LOL.

For a start I think I'll be getting some homosexual characters into my RPG Campaign to push the boat out a bit :p

Reverend Strone
7 January 2003, 12:22 PM
One simple reason- GL is a very conservative man with a very straight down the middle outlook.

That's not a criticism from me, just an observation. Different folks see things differently and he has chosen to create a universe that reflects his own outlook. It's the same reason there's no swearing in SW. That doesn't fit George's vision of what he feels is appropriate to show young audiences. However he might feel about them, same-sex relationships just isn't a subject he wants to broach, and by dropping one in there he raises the subject, no matter how back-ground the characters are.

At least- that's the way I've observed it to be.

Vreel Kudarin
7 January 2003, 12:39 PM
Yes, I can see it would be more difficult to get any hint of same-sex relationship into the films, but maybe they could squeeze a little bit into some EU fiction. Please, if only for me? :rolleyes: I mean different-species relationships surely must be pretty close to the bone for some people?

I just remembered there was another idea I forgot to put in my first post, (I don't really believe this possibility at all) but I thought what about if it's a really sinister reason such as: due to all the advanced technology (by our standards), a regular occurance on most worlds is to 'correct' hormonal balances that aren't deemed in-keeping with the path of evolution/religion? That would be so sinister! 8o

Nova Spice
7 January 2003, 12:51 PM
I've wondered for a long time why we don't see same-sex relationships in Star Wars, considering the fact that there are plenty of different-species relationships, and males and females seem to have equal rights (possibly even 4,000 years before Yavin in the Tales of the Jedi Era).

Well, to be blunt, it's because most people want to "escape" from the real world and all the garbage in it today. I, for one, do not want to read about gay Star Wars characters. Its enough that it has to be publicized like it is in the news, much less in the industry of Star Wars.


America is the biggest market for Star Wars, and there are some religious areas who would not be happy with having homosexuals in popular literature.

Not only religious areas, but parents, families, and sponsors would also be disgusted with the idea.


Star Wars would get bad press if they tried it, and probably lose some sales because of it. Another reason may be that authors think that homosexual 'heroes' or 'heroines' would not go down well with readers.

I would imagine that something like this would hurt the Star Wars line to the point of no return. And as I stated above, homosexual heroes and heroines would not go down well with me at all!


Some people may be offended at the suggestion of having same-sex relationships in Star Wars, but frankly, I'm offended that there aren't any.

Um, keep in mind that Star Wars is supposed to be "fun for the whole family" entertainment. I started liking Star Wars at the tender age of 7, and thank God Star Wars didn't have perverse homosexual content. I would be incredibly offended if it did contain such material, since many of Star Wars fans are in the 8-12 kids range. Such topics are not suitable for young children and they really make the "escapism" of Star Wars full of earthly issues.


Seeing as 1 in 10 people is gay (according to the figures I've heard repeatedly) you would have thought a few characters in the novels or films would've come out by now. LOL.

Well, in the real world, I've heard that the actual gay population is only around 3-4% or less. And if a Star Wars character "came out" in the novels or films, you would also find that Star Wars fans would "disappear."

I tend to be very blunt on issues like this and am one of those people that, though I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, know that I am bound to offend someone. I believe in ethics and morals, so homosexuality just doesn't cut it for me. ;)

That's my two cents.

P.S. Thank you Rev for your comments earlier.

Codym
7 January 2003, 12:52 PM
I think one of the reasons you won't see a gay character in Star War is the negative reaction it will get, no matter how well written or thought out or balanced that character may have been. After all, people caused a rumble over racisim when George choose some with brown skin to be the father of the clones, and there's still that imbecilic movement that still claims Jar Jar is a racist creation and not in fact a whimsical alien. And as the good Reverend pointed out, no matter how background the character may be, it will still be the thing that will be focused on and no doubt trashed.

It would be nice for a gay character to show up (at the moment I'd prefer a male character, as a lesbian would probably treated as some lame fan boy sex fantasy) but I don't see it happening any time soon. Unless your one of those people who insist that R2 & C3P0 are a gay couple. :D

Vreel Kudarin
7 January 2003, 01:09 PM
You're telling me Artoo and Threepio aren't an item?

How could you dash all my dreams and ruin my faith!? LOL :D

On a (possibly) serious note, perhaps Threepio could be criticised for stereotyping homosexual characters as unheroic, and 'camp' in behaviour.

Yeah, definitely, any presence of lesbian (whether couples or an individual) would be treated as and would probably be a lame male fantasy. I can see this isn't going to happen, I guess I've just seen the limits of Star Wars in one particular direction. But then surely many females in Star Wars are depicted as male fantasy (Twi'leks in particular, obviously Leia as Jabba's slave, the old Nexu-partial-removal of Padme's top etc). I'm not saying there's neccessarily anything wrong with this by the way. Certainly not :p But I reckon Anakin should be forced to wear a metal slave bikini in Episode III to even up the odds.

In our group's gaming, we long ago created a Feat called Sex Appeal, that our characters can acquire to gain bonuses to Skill Checks to influence heterosexual members of the opposite gender and homosexual members of the same gender.

I'd heard about the Jar Jar business; but I hadn't heard about such a reaction to Jango. It's quite a ridiculous stance. Is there anywhere I can get more info on that story?

PS I believe in ethics and morals too. Though their definition can vary to great extremes. Is Leia as a slave in a skimpy bikini wearing a leash "Fun for all the family?"

Talonne Hauk
7 January 2003, 01:38 PM
Well, Reverend, GL is actually a pretty liberal guy by American standards. He hosts a lot of fundraisers for the Democratic party at Skywalker Ranch. But a liberal American would vote conservatively in most countries. And I think that's the whole crux of the issue. Because movies are written for the American box office, potentially offending large groups of that audience (as Nova Spice demonstrated admirably) will have a... detrimental effect on the films performance, to say the least. So a filmmaker has to ask, "Is it worth it to put a little flair on a character that has no impact on the plot or message of the film just to accurately reflect statistics and consequently have the film ignored because of this, or do I want the largest audience possible?" And most filmmakers will choose the latter. Ultimately, it really shouldn't be an issue. Sexuality, like religion and politics, are personal issues. What a person is doesn't reflect who a person is. They may shape the person, but the whole is infinitely greater than the sum of the parts. Lucas has given us terrific characters that are worth emulating regardless of our personal issues.

Vreel Kudarin
7 January 2003, 01:51 PM
Talonne's post is the most eloquent so far, but it's not the funniest one.

Well put, Talonne.

I just hope it never gets out that Lando isn't really a ladies's man...

Plus I think we've overlooked the issue of bisexuality. That should be half as problematic shouldn't it? :D

Talon Razor 'GM'
7 January 2003, 02:04 PM
Ok, my post may came off a little harsh and I apologize in advance, becuase this will offend someone.


But Nova Spice hit the nail on the head.

Star Wars is wholesome fun for the family. It does not have the trash most movies feel compelled to display today. I play SWRPG because it is more wholesome then most RPGs. Star Wars, I hope, would never support the sick, awful princple of homo's. America may be the last refuge of deceny (even though it feels like it is fading fast) and I know the media has hyped these sick people called gays. We do *not* need that trash and filth like that in Star Wars. Why would we want to bring garbage into something we do to escape the same garbage? This is family entertainment! Not for a bunch of weirdos like gays.

We NEED morals! We NEED ethics! Having a gay character in EU is not moral! Other stuff can have that perverted trash but not Star Wars!

The problem is no one believes in ethics any more. Lets keep Star Wars clean. Leave the world to carry on in its awful way and have it go down a drain.

And what a person is DOES reflect who they are. By golly, actions are eyes into the soul! I get sick of people saying, "Oh, well, he killed someone, but he still is a good person."

I am done. When I see something like this, I MUST comment. I am sorry if someone is offended, but, oh well.

I am not trying to offend feelings. I am not trying to hurt people, or start a flame war. I just feel very strongly about stuff like this and normally keep my thoughts to myself.

And thanks Nova for having the guts to say something. I am glad someone else believes in moral choices and content. I thought I was the last one left.....

Vanger Chevane
7 January 2003, 02:08 PM
if ya wanna look at it from a different perspective, some of the races GL set loose in the galaxy, like Ithorians, are near impossible for us to tell Male from Female so how sure can you be that some couple in the background is strictly Hetero? :b

It's up for the individual to decide.

dgswensen
7 January 2003, 02:32 PM
My thoughts on this issue:

1) I am straight, but I find that most depictions of homosexuals in the media are flamboyantly stereotypical and offensive. Most gay characters in modern fiction of any medium tend to be mincing, oversexed buffoons. None of the homosexuals I know act this way, and Star Wars is hardly revered for its depth and breadth of character. The world does not need more "comic-booky" depictions of homosexuals, and that's all Star Wars would be capable of offering, because that's all its straight characters are.

2) I agree that sexuality does not belong in Star Wars, but not on moral grounds. I have no problem with homosexuality, I just believe that it is family entertainment, and kids should have these issues introduced to them in some other way -- not as science fiction. But this applies to all manner of sexuality, not just homosexual behavior. I don't think Barney should be teaching kids sex-ed either. These kinds of issues should be dealt with by parents, not mass entertainment.

Of course, you can make the argument that homosexual characters are not defined by their sexual preferences. This is certainly true, but if it's not important, and doesn't come into the story, then why bring it up? Most characters, be they gay or straight, don't mention their orientation or display it. So assuming that any given character is straight is just an assumption.

3) And, even from a storytelling perspective, I don't think these kind of issues belong in Star Wars. Padme and Anakin traipsing merrily through summer meadows is the perfect vision off how Star Wars deals with sexuality: Naive, Puritanical, Pollyanna, saccharine, and totally devoid of passion. Which is fine with me, because I consider Star Wars to be essentially kid's stuff, and while I might crack jokes about what kind of things Zam Wessell and Jango Fett might have gotten up to in their off hours, I don't think it belongs in the canon.

And, again, Star Wars is not "thoughtful" science fiction. You could deal with human (and nonhuman) sexuality issues in something like Trek, which is a touch more cerebral, but Star Wars is too wahoo for that kind of subject matter to be at home there.

Which is not to say you can't do your own thing in your own RPG, and if you want to incorporate those kind of ideas into your own stories, I say good for you.

dgswensen
7 January 2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Vreel Kudarin

Is Leia as a slave in a skimpy bikini wearing a leash "Fun for all the family?"

He shoots, he scores. Very well said, Vreel.

To certain right-wing individuals (like the ones that run Capalert), Jabba's licking of Leia's face is probably considered a glorification of bestiality.

Corr Terek
7 January 2003, 02:55 PM
I agree with Talon Razor and Nova Spice. Star Wars -- movies, novels, comics, whatever -- doesn't need that kind of stuff. Not all of you will remember, but a long time ago there was a discussion on these boards about Jedi, Marriage, and Sexuality.

In the discussion, the idea of gay Jedi presented itself. I was more of a lurker at the time, and did not post, but I'll post now, seeing as a similar issue has come up. Homosexuality isn't normal, it isn't natural, and it sure ain't right. I think Jedi would frown on the idea, maybe even to the point of expelling members of the Order who demonstrated those kind of interests. So would the galaxy at large.

My parents, my friends, and their parents, all like the Star Wars franchise because it is family-friendly, and, for the most part, displays a better grasp of ethics than most trash put out today.

We don't need gay people in SW -- it doesn't fit. And even if it did, I still wouldn't like it. The SW franchise would lose one more fan.

Talon Razor 'GM'
7 January 2003, 03:00 PM
Thumbs up to Corr Tekk!! I think the majority of Star Wars fans are fans for those reasons.

Codym
7 January 2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Corr Terek
I think Jedi would frown on the idea, maybe even to the point of expelling members of the Order who demonstrated those kind of interests. So would the galaxy at large.


I'd like to think that the Jedi would be far more open minded than that. The Jedi are about peace, acceptance and understanding, not persecuting someone for being different.

Talon Razor 'GM'
7 January 2003, 04:39 PM
Ha, I knew this would happen. I have been attacked for posting about Gays. As I have said before, I am not trying to hurt feelings. I believe gays are wrong and homosexuality is sick. That is what I said. I did not attack anyone directly. I did not accuse anyone of being evil. I do not appriecate being rated 4 times in a row over and over again just to give me a bad score. That is low.

Grimace
7 January 2003, 05:24 PM
Obviously this thread is not going to allow itself to remain open, due to the nature of discussion. People's tempers begin to flare on such topics, and enemies can be made over differing views.

Although some people might be able to have a logical discussion revolving around this subject, I think that there are those who will not be able to pass on the opportunity to start bashing one side or another, or to start flame wars. So, I am going to TEMPORARILY close this thread. I will bring the matter up with Armage, and if he decides that the thread should be opened back up, I will do so.

Please allow for a little time to pass before a final decision is made on this matter.

Thread closed.

EDIT: It has been decided that this particular thread will remain closed, due to the direction the discussion had drifted. Feel free to continue conversations along these lines via Private Message (PM). For the time being, please refrain from posting similar material until the staff can decide whether such a topic should be allowed. If you have questions, feel free to PM me.