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stoic_75
12 January 2003, 12:45 PM
Count Dooku (gotta love these SWars names) uses his telekinesis to topple a support beam. But before the beam crushes poor Obi-wan and his pouty-lipped apprentice Anakin, Master Yoda saves the day. While engaged, Yoda allows Dooku boards his solar sailer and escapes. My question is: Why save Obi-Wan and Anakin?

Dooku was a Sith Lord! Shouldn't the Jedi, stop that guy at all costs, even their own lives? Surely, they knew the consequences of allowing him to get away even without farseeing.

When Anakin wanted to stop and rescue Padme', he was berated by his master. "Dooku needs to be stopped, Duty comes first, don't let your emotions get in the way, and blah blah." Yoda himself watched from afar and shook his head at Anakin's indiscretion.

I guess the Jedi Code doesn't apply to a certaiin green-skinned muppet. (Oops sorry, they don't have muppets anymore.)

Rogue Janson
12 January 2003, 01:37 PM
Have a look at this (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10521&highlight=dooku+yoda+anakin) thread where we had a long discussion about this point :rolleyes:.

stoic_75
12 January 2003, 02:16 PM
Thanks Rogue. I'm pleased to know that I wasn't the only one who noticed this stinging plot point in Episode II. I, am however, disappointed to learn I was the only cynic sitting in the audience. "Saving Anakin was the will of the Force!" What crap. I for one, am pleased Darth Tyranus escapes with the Death Star Plans. These people deserve what they get.

dgswensen
12 January 2003, 06:06 PM
I know this issue has been dealt with elsewhere, but I want to sound off on it one last time...

Letting your students be unceremoniously crushed to death because you can't be bothered to break off the fight with the bad guy, that is not the spirit of Star Wars. That's not what a real hero would do.

Lord of the Rings might have been a more pragmatic story if Aragorn took the ring from Frodo, threw him to the Orcs, and let the Uruk-Hai torture and kill Merry and Pippin so he could destroy the Ring himself, but that doesn't mean I'd like to see the story told that way. In many ways, it would have gone directly against what Tolkien was trying to say with his story. The same with Star Wars, I think.

Heroes who would casually toss aside their friends and companions in order to kill the bad guy for the "greater good" are not heroes, in my eyes. It would be different if Anakin and Obi-Wan had gone down fighting, but they were lying there helpless. Defending the helpless is what the Jedi are all about -- their focus is not on killing.

The deaths that might have been prevented by killing Dooku are, at best, hypothetical, and could be accurately summed up only in retrospect. The deaths of Obi-Wan and Anakin would have been real and immediate, and it is to them that Yoda's, and the Jedi's, code of honor, should be loyal. To me, the certainty of saving two noble lives or the possibility of ending one ignoble one is no choice at all to a true Jedi. His path was clear.

Jedi Cahlwyn
13 January 2003, 05:09 PM
I skimmed through the other thread and this one and while I understand everyone's reasoning, I must agree with the ones who side with Yoda's decision. Saving the helpess Kenobi and his Padawan was the heroic thing to do. Master Yoda had a choice... kill Dooku and watch his students die or "try" to kill Count Dooku.

In the fight, as awesome as Yoda was, Dooku held his own. It isn't guaranteed that Yoda would have killed Dooku before the Sith Lord found another way to escape. But, it was certain that Kenobi and Anakin would be dead if Yoda didn't stop them. It is what a hero would do, it is what a Jedi would do.

Troy Henist
14 January 2003, 01:22 AM
This is the way I see it

One thing to point out

"They were both evenly matched"

Neither could beat each other in skill of the Lightsaber or of the force, but if other Jedi turned up the odds of Dooku escaping would be reduced.

So the only way Dooku could beat and escape Yoda was to go for his one weakness. His conscious. Dooku knew that Yoda wouldn't sacrifice his friends to try and stop him. So he dropped the support beam and like clockwork Yoda stopped it and moved it away, thus allowing him to escape.

Another intresting thing to point out. It took a great deal of effort on Yoda's part to stop the beam and move it away, why didn't Dooku, make a surprise attack whilst Yoda was distracted?

Jim Williams
14 January 2003, 02:47 AM
Troy, I think your question can be answered on two levels.

The easy one is that GL wanted the movie over (for whatever reason, up to and including depriving his fans of the infamous Dooku deleted scenes of him fighting Yoda with two lightsabers but I'm not bitter or anything so I'll stop now) so Dooku got on the ship and ran.

Realistically, I think Dooku might have been pushing his luck if he lunged for Yoda while he was struggling with the column. Placed in such a no-option situation, Yoda would have probably reluctantly taken his only option---destroy Dooku. After all, with Yoda dead, Obi and Anikin are dead anyway. Or perhaps the dark side would have offered Yoda an option that would have given him the power to both destroy Dooku and save the Jedi, heh heh heh (Emperor's cackle).

Stoic_75 I think Yoda's look after the Obi-Anikin arguing scene foreshadowed Yoda's realization that Padme would do her duty. HOWEVER, if you are correct, maybe Yoda was disappointed in Obi-Wan's choice---helping someone (actually, someones, there was that poor clonetrooper blithely ignored by Anikin) took a back seat to stopping Dooku.

dgswensen
14 January 2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Troy Henist
Another intresting thing to point out. It took a great deal of effort on Yoda's part to stop the beam and move it away, why didn't Dooku, make a surprise attack whilst Yoda was distracted?

I think Dooku most likely could have killed both Obi-Wan and Anakin had he really wanted to. He crippled Obi-Wan and lingered over him, giving Anakin the chance to interfere. Nor did he rush right in and finish Anakin off after he cut off his arm. He also could have collapsed the tower on them both right then and there.

But he didn't. I'm not saying Dooku secretly has a heart of gold, but I don't think he was particularly interested in killing anybody. His objective was to get the Death Star plans back to Sidious, not fiddle-faddle around with killing some upstart Jedi. So even if Yoda was vulnerable, I doubt it was on Dooku's mind. He had a bigger objective in mind.

DNAphil
14 January 2003, 08:32 AM
I am not going to argue too much on the why Yoda saved Anikan and Obi-wan, I think that the Jedi code supports defending the helpless first and then crushing evil.

I have not watched my Epi II DVD in a while, but I don't rememer hearing too much about anyone Calling Dooku a Sith until after the fight. At best most would concider him a Fallen Jedi. Perhaps that also had some weight on Yoda's decision.

If I am wrong, I will stand corrected, or currently sit corrected.

DNAphil

Codym
14 January 2003, 02:13 PM
No-one calls Dooku a Sith because no-one knows he is in league with the Sith. While at the end of AOTC, everyone knew he had embraced the Darkside, no-one had yet linked him with the Sith. This has been carried on into the EU, such as in the latest Boba Fett novel where Boba gets scolded for almost revealling that Dooku and Tyranus are the same person. The link between the two has yet to be discovered, though it may be known by Episode III.

stoic_75
14 January 2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by dgswensen

The deaths that might have been prevented by killing Dooku are, at best, hypothetical, and could be accurately summed up only in retrospect. The deaths of Obi-Wan and Anakin would have been real and immediate, and it is to them that Yoda's, and the Jedi's, code of honor, should be loyal. To me, the certainty of saving two noble lives or the possibility of ending one ignoble one is no choice at all to a true Jedi. His path was clear. [/B]


I'm not questioning whether Yoda is a "hero" or not. I'm questioning whether he followed the Jedi Code or not. In my opinion he did not.

It was not only Obi-Wan who said Dooku must be stopped. Yoda himself gave the situation a sense of urgency:

In the Republic gunship Yoda tells Mace Windu " if Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his call he will."

While, the Jedi did not know that Dooku has the Death Star plans, they do know for certain that much more blood will be spilled if the war is allowed to continue:


As Dooku escapes he taunts Yoda saying, "this is only the beginning."

Hmm, do you think he meant the beginning of peace? No, the beginning of pain and suffering.

While, it may have been hard to watch friends die, Yoda should have defeated Dooku and ended the war. Obi Wan and Anakin's death would not be in vain and would instead be a noble sacrifice to their cause.

dgswensen
14 January 2003, 08:44 PM
And if Yoda had been unable to stop Dooku, two Jedi Knights would have died for nothing.

I think the "saving the lives of the future" theory holds water only if Yoda's defeating Dooku were a certainty, which it is not. It's obvious from their battle that they are very evenly matched. That Yoda would choose to sacrifice Obi-Wan and Anakin to fight that battle and still lose is a very distinct possibility.

If Yoda lets Obi-Wan and Anakin die to try to kill Dooku, and fails to kill Dooku, then not only are they in the same position as before, but two of the most powerful Jedi in the Order are dead on top of it -- making the Clone War that much harder to fight.

In short, there are too many variables at hand, and too many grievous Jedi losses on Geonosis already, for Yoda to gamble with the lives of two more, possibly three -- considering Yoda himself could have been killed trying to defeat Dooku, thus leaving the Order without its leader as well.

I think that possibility is a much worse outcome than Dooku's escape, and I think he knew it. In my opinion he did the right thing.

Codym
15 January 2003, 12:57 AM
Another thing to remember about the confontation is Yoda couldn't kill Dooku, even if he wanted to (which he didn't.) Killing Dooku would have martyred him in the eyes of the seperatists, and, by allowing the deaths of two Jedi Knights in the process, the Jedi Order would be damaged.

The statement often brought up is "If we stop Dooku, we can end this." This does not mean "Kill Dooku." It means "Stop Dooku." The former Jedi has to be brought to justice and shown as a fraud. Anything else just strenghtens the Seperatists cause.

Basically, Yoda was in a no win situation, and chose the only option within the Jedi Code (and Yoda's own moral code): Preserve Life. Killing Dooku wouldn't have done this, it would have actually caused more deaths.

Jim Williams
15 January 2003, 04:58 AM
I'll just carry over one of my comments from the "other thread". Yoda can't make a decision based on a prediction of what someone else's future decisions might be. He has has to make his decision...fight Dooku or save Obi-Wan and Anikin. I think logic can be an impediment to following the Code (i.e, it is logical that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, but this does not mean it is within the Jedi Code).

stoic_75
15 January 2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Codym
Another thing to remember about the confontation is Yoda couldn't kill Dooku, even if he wanted to (which he didn't.) Killing Dooku would have martyred him in the eyes of the seperatists, and, by allowing the deaths of two Jedi Knights in the process, the Jedi Order would be damaged.

The statement often brought up is "If we stop Dooku, we can end this." This does not mean "Kill Dooku." It means "Stop Dooku." The former Jedi has to be brought to justice and shown as a fraud. Anything else just strenghtens the Seperatists cause.

Basically, Yoda was in a no win situation, and chose the only option within the Jedi Code (and Yoda's own moral code): Preserve Life. Killing Dooku wouldn't have done this, it would have actually caused more deaths.



Who said anything about killing? While that may have been a solution, so would maiming, incapacitating, and capturing Dooku. As for the martyr bit, well that's speculation. We could also speculate that instead the Separatists would be demoralized without their leader and fold. I think maybe Yoda saving Obi-wan and Anakin was a pure reflex action. His old age and senility made him lose focus of the true obejective.

Codym
15 January 2003, 05:27 PM
You're reaching. There is no evidence of senility on Yoda's part, and his true objective was to save lives, so no focus was lost. Allowing two more Jedi to die after some many others had given their lives to resuce them would be a great blow to him and the Jedi, especially since he could (and did) save them.

Dooku becoming a martyr is not so much speculation but extrapalation. While there may have been some demoralization, Palpatine (through another apprentice or accomplice) would no doubt manipulate things back to achieve his goal, with a nice "fallen hero" to help him in his cause.

And as for maiming Dooku, this would have the same effect as killing him - giving Dooku and his cause sympathy. This is because of one small fact: Dooku is in the right. The Republic is corrupt. Obi-Wan was spying on them. The Jedi attacked them, as did the newly created Republic Army. And Dooku gave everyone involved ample oppotunities to back down. Compare that to Yoda slicing and dicing him while allowing the others to die, and you'll see my point (hell, it may have even quickened the downfall of the Jedi.)

This was a battle neither the Jedi nor the Republic could win.

stoic_75
15 January 2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Codym
You're reaching. There is no evidence of senility on Yoda's part, and his true objective was to save lives, so no focus was lost. Allowing two more Jedi to die after some many others had given their lives to resuce them would be a great blow to him and the Jedi, especially since he could (and did) save them.

Not reaching, joking. My sardonic wit goes to waste yet again.

Dooku becoming a martyr is not so much speculation but extrapalation. While there may have been some demoralization, Palpatine (through another apprentice or accomplice) would no doubt manipulate things back to achieve his goal, with a nice "fallen hero" to help him in his cause.

No, you speculated. Unless of course you have it fomr Lucas himself that's waht would have happened.

And as for maiming Dooku, this would have the same effect as killing him - giving Dooku and his cause sympathy. This is because of one small fact: Dooku is in the right. The Republic is corrupt. Obi-Wan was spying on them. The Jedi attacked them, as did the newly created Republic Army. And Dooku gave everyone involved ample oppotunities to back down. Compare that to Yoda slicing and dicing him while allowing the others to die, and you'll see my point (hell, it may have even quickened the downfall of the Jedi.)

It says in the StarWars RPG handbook that maiming is considered more humane than killing. Especially with the ready availability of cybernetic replacements.

This was a battle neither the Jedi nor the Republic could win.

Correct...kinda. They may not have been able to win without sacrificing themselves or others.

dgswensen
15 January 2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by stoic_75
As for the martyr bit, well that's speculation. We could also speculate that instead the Separatists would be demoralized without their leader and fold.

We can also speculate that Dooku's unarmed ship could easily have been shot down or stopped by the Republic troops as it left the hangar, or anytime between its route from Geonosis to Coruscant. We can speculate that once Sidious got the Death Star plans from Dooku that he killed him, and thus Dooku was of no importance to anyone after that. We can speculate about any number of a million possible outcomes.

Assuming Dooku's escape has long-reaching negative consequences for the Republic is itself nothing but speculation. As far as I'm concerned, the only veritable certainty at the moment of Yoda's action is that both Jedi Knights would have almost surely been killed had he not acted. Everything else is just possibilities.

In regards to this point, I would like to cite an example from another story we all know quite well, Lord of the Rings: "It's a pity Bilbo didn't slay Gollum when he had the chance." Certainly, Bilbo should have done the smart thing and killed Gollum instead of just escaping, right? That would have solved everyone's problems down the line, right? Wrong.

It's stressed time and time again that Yoda cannot see the future, and that it is always changing. And regarding whether all this is in the Jedi Code or not, I would like to cite one last bit of dialogue from the movie canon:

"But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future."
"But not at the expense of the moment."

I think that sums up my opinion on the matter very nicely.

FULONGAMER
16 January 2003, 07:34 AM
Of course, Yoda could have simply used the conveniently offered 2 ton bat to bank shot Dooku's flying lawn dart off the hangar wall. Surely that could have been done in such a way as to disable the craft and capture Dooku alive. Two brds with one stone as it were. But alas, Yoda's foresight had by his own admission been clouded.

So, now the question is did Yoda simply miss the opportunity, or did he choose to let Dooku go? This he could have done from altruistic intentions, to keep Amidala from getting whacked in round 4 of Dooku's throwdown. Wandering into the middle of dueling force masters is not a healthy place to be after all.

When GL gets around to the inevitable AotC:SE, hopefully an expanded Obi-Annie-Yoda vs Dooku dueling sequence will be one of the bennies.

It could all also have been due to a well timed mind trick on Dooku's part, suggesting Yoda save the others instead of finishing him off as he turned to run. Otherwise why didn't Yoda kneecap him when he took the vital seconds to direct all his attention to crushing the base of the column?

Yoda's Deleted Dialogue:

"I am wondering, why am I here?"

stoic_75
30 January 2003, 07:10 PM
I just watched ESB and thought I'd add this: On Dagobah, Luke sees Han and Leia at Cloud City. "They're in pain!"

Obi-wan and Yoda urge Luke not to go save them.

"And sacrifice Hand and Leia?" Luke asks.

"If you honor what they fight, for? Yes." is Yoda's reply.


THIS is the answer I respect from a Jedi Master. He realizes the importance of stopping Darth Vader and the Emperor. While he knows there is only a slim chance Luke will succeed, he takes it anyway.

My bet is that he regrets not stopping Dooku when he had the chance. Especially after Dooku presents Sidious with the Death Star plans. Anakin growing up to become Vader probably didn't help either.

This time, Yoda isn't going to let emotion get in the way of doing the right thing.

Jim Williams
31 January 2003, 07:13 AM
Okay, why didn't Yoda kneecap Dooku when he turned and ran? Why didn't Yoda bat Dooku's ship with the column? Simple. He couldn't.

This is the same reason Darth Maul didn't slice Obi-Wan in two as he flipped over him at the end of their battle, why Maul didn't chop Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as they flipped across the chasm in pursuit of him, why Maul didn't chop Qui-Gon's legs off when he dropped down next to him. And finally, why Qui-Gon chose to backfist Maul instead of hit him with his lightsaber.

It's because certain things have to happen to carry the plot.

IMO, assuming there is some"thing" behind all of this is ignoring that there is a limit to how perfect choreographing can be in a movie. However, I will say that it is pretty apparent that Yoda is struggling with the column and more than likely incapable of doing anything except move it four meters and DROP it. And I would not be surprised if even taking a fraction of a second to swipe the fleeing Dooku might have been all that harsh mistress (gravity) needed to bring the column down with unstoppable force. Perhaps Yoda realized that he must simply act as quickly as possible (in game terms a full-round Move Object check for a +2 bonus to the roll?).

Ardent
31 January 2003, 08:26 AM
Uhh, I think you're all forgetting something. Yoda a) has no idea that Dooku is Tyrannus, for one and b) still thinks that his good friend can be returned to the Light.

I think that more or less sums it up for me. Only the most pragmatic of heroes (generally, the anti-hero) will kill a friend for a momentary lapse in character. It doesn't make good story-telling unless you're trying to kill off the heroes.

Rogue Janson
1 February 2003, 02:42 AM
That's true - whereas Obi-Wan and Anakin seem pretty much convinced of Dooku's fall (I'd guess it was the whole 'execution' thing that did it), Yoda just says "the dark side I sense in you".
It would certainly fit in with the whole 'stop Dooku, but not necessarily kill him' idea.

dgswensen
2 February 2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by stoic_75
"And sacrifice Hand and Leia?" Luke asks.

"If you honor what they fight, for? Yes." is Yoda's reply.

THIS is the answer I respect from a Jedi Master. He realizes the importance of stopping Darth Vader and the Emperor. While he knows there is only a slim chance Luke will succeed, he takes it anyway.

This time, Yoda isn't going to let emotion get in the way of doing the right thing.

I think it's important to note that in both cases, Yoda is doing everything he can to preserve the lives of his fellow Jedi: in the first case, by letting Dooku go; in the second, by urging Luke to stay and complete his training.

Also, I think that if Yoda were the kind of character you are arguing that he should have been, he would have never levitated the X-Wing out of the swamp. He would have left it there and forced Luke to stay and let his friends die so he could complete his training. Because that's for the greater good!

The only problem with that theory is that it's Luke's strong emotions for his sister Leia that finally allow him to defeat Vader in combat, leading to his self-realization and truly becoming a Jedi. If Leia were already dead, it's entirely likely Luke would have given in to despair and turned to the Dark Side.

So again I make the point about not being able to see all ends from the immediate situation.