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Pel
9 February 2003, 09:06 PM
Ok, now that we know Yoda is not only the quintessential wise Jedi Master, he's also the Master of Lightsaber Kung-Fu, how is it that the Emperor and Vader didn't spend every waking moment hunting him down? I figure he's got to fake his death somehow in or just after Ep. III. Any ideas how to convince a pair of Sith Lords of your untimely demise?

malphas13
10 February 2003, 07:46 AM
In theory Yoda could have used Force Illusion to convince Luke he'd died. (though you'd have to exclude his force ghost at the end of the movies)

Redeemed Jedi
10 February 2003, 08:44 AM
he may not have to even fake his death, witht the power that is assumed Yoda has it is likely that he can cloak it much in the way that palpatine has been doing for years. he doesnt need to fake his death, just go somewhere nobody would look like and uninhabiteted swamp planet....

Nafai
10 February 2003, 09:12 AM
not to mention that the cave on Dagobah is rich with the Dark side,which helps cover his presence almost without any effort on his part. The hard part of course, is to not be influenced by it while living so close to it.

Valoy_Muniz
10 February 2003, 09:48 AM
From what I heard a long time ago he is to crash on that planet with a dark jedi and kill the jedi at the cave. This could explain why they thought he as dead as he was stuck on the planet and though both where killed in the crash.

Silent
10 February 2003, 09:48 AM
Yeah, if you can get yourself a good astromech with a transport, you can just ricochet around the galaxy for a while and just drop into some uncharted planet and send the transport into the sun. Of course, there's the theory that Dooku might find Yoda on Dagobah and try to kill him there, but that's just speculation; if he does though, I imagine that Dooku might consider this an old score he doesn't want the emperor to mess around with and just nips off witthout a word...

Pel
10 February 2003, 07:20 PM
Hmmm..Hadn't heard about the Dooku/Tyrannus connection. It certainly would fit nicely. I like it. Somebody send George a memo! :p

Pel
11 February 2003, 07:51 PM
Something just occured to me:

Yoda somehow escapes capture/certain death/etc. and ends up on Dagobah, where the last of the Jedi Masters he will be until Luke antes up.
Knowing this, would Yoda have followed in the tradition of the great Jedi Masters and constructed a Holocron encompassing his vast knowledge of the Force? If so, where would he have stashed it?

Silent
12 February 2003, 10:20 AM
I don't where he would have stashed it, although he probably would have given it to Luke before he died, so that he could continue his training. He probably didn't make a Holocron though, simply because he didn't have the tools to make one on Dagobah, where his technology is distinctly low-level, either through personal choice or necessity.

Vanger Chevane
12 February 2003, 03:56 PM
he did make one, and tucked it somewhere Leia would be likely find it if Luke failed to become a Jedi, was killed, or was turned by Vader and/or Palpatine into nother Darth.

Had Luke gone over to the Darkside, Yoda's survival & whereabouts would become known to Palpatine, Vader and/or Luke would be sent out to kill the "Last Jedi Master". Palpatine himself may go to Dagobah to ensure Yoda had no chance of training another major threat to his power.


In RotJ, Yoda implies on his deathbed that he & Obi-Wan had kinda hedged their bets on Skywalker being able to bring down Vader & the Emperor, having a "backup Padawan" available. :p

Jedi Master Talon
13 February 2003, 09:19 AM
I'm guessing Dooku comes and trys to settle an old score with Yoda on Dagobah and then Yoda kills him where the Dark Side cave will be and is stuck on the planet but the cave blocks out the use of his powers.

Pel
19 February 2003, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure that a Dark Side nexus like the Dagobah cave would actually interfere with Yoda's powers. Shield him from detection, yes, but I recall no mention of interferance.

Corsec025
19 February 2003, 12:58 PM
I believe that the holocron idea is perfectly sane, and a thought occurred to me... I think Silent (not sure) brought up the fact that he would have it for Leia, and here's a twist:

What if Yoda had it hidden on Alderaan, and then it was destroyed!

As to the talk of how Yoda hid it is this: raw, unrestrained Force. There is no "dark" side of the Force guys! C'mon! The Force static thing makes sense though, what if that cave was just like Coruscant, and the Jedi Temple! It had a great amount of Force, that no one controlled. Yoda was probably running, and he sensed a great amount of Force energy. Yoda would've known that it could have been someone evil, but that wouldn't worry a Jedi master! Yoda knew that there was no "dark" side, and so he would have nothing to fear of it. Why would you fear something that isn't real? As long as Yoda didn't have evil in his heart he wouldn't be like Vader and the Emperor! It wouldn't matter if he used "dark" side powers or not!

The fact is the Force doesn't pick sides!

Jericho_Narcas
20 February 2003, 01:30 AM
I find it hard to believe that Yoda doesn't believe in the Dark Side when he talks about it all the time. I think it's much more likely that Vergere is simply wrong.

Corsec025
20 February 2003, 01:28 PM
How can you say that?! Have you even read the NJO books? Vergere isn't wrong, Yoda just lied! The Jedi temple was built on a nexus of the f***ing "dark" side. It wasn't the dark side that it was built upon though, it was the raw force! It could've enhanced the powers of Mace and Yoda, who knows, but that is where the temple was built!

Vergere was there before, she knows what is going on. She is also not the only one to have said that! Jacen Solo agreed with her, even though he didn't want to. He also said, "...well they say the truth hurts, they have no idea" Vergere is not wrong!

Vergere isn't infallible either. She has been known to lie before, but those lies led to greater truths! Even so, when Yoda tells Luke to beware of the "dark" side, he is telling him to beware of his own "dark" side!

Remember the cave? Luke kills the "Vader" but it turns out it is just him anyway! Yoda is telling him to beware of what will happen if he gives in to the evil intentions in his heart!

Codym
20 February 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Corsec025
How can you say that?! Have you even read the NJO books? Vergere isn't wrong, Yoda just lied! The Jedi temple was built on a nexus of the f***ing "dark" side. It wasn't the dark side that it was built upon though, it was the raw force! It could've enhanced the powers of Mace and Yoda, who knows, but that is where the temple was built!


What the hell are talking about? The NJO have nothing to do with this arguement. It is always dangerous to bring the EU into discussions like this, especially ones as contentious as that particular series. In the movies, Yoda is the ultimate repositary of Force knowledge, not some bird chick who claims to have discovered the "truth" while plotting mass murder with alien invaders.

But there is another one who is more knowledgible on the Force, and they have stated on many occassions that there is a Darkside, that it corrupts, and that the Lightside must overcome it. The one is George Lucas, and if you believe he is wrong, you might as well walk away from Star Wars all together.

Corsec025
20 February 2003, 06:47 PM
Number One: Vergere is not a "bird chick" she is a Fosh... please brush up on your alien species before they come and kill you for being racist.

Number Two: The NJO does say that the Jedi Temple was built on a Nexus of the Dark Side, but wait... it isn't the dark side though is it? Jacen Solo assumes that the raw force is the dark side, but Vergere shows him the true way, and he acknowledges that.

Number Three: Vergere is not planning mass murder with a bunch of aliens. The Yuuzhan Vong are nothing like her. Vergere is on Jacen Solo's side.

Number Four: If I may refer you to the thread titled: The Battle of Endor... Outstanding odds or a Mission Impossible? You will understand that GL isn't always consistent.

Number Five: Do you honestly know what the NJO is? Have you even read the book Traitor? If you haven't, your opinion isn't worth a credit!

Jericho_Narcas
21 February 2003, 05:07 PM
Whatever else Vergere may or may not be, I still think she's wrong. There's just enough truth mixed in there to make it all sound good, but it's wrong nonetheless.

George Lucas has always maintained that there is a Light side and a Dark side to the Force. The movies have always been consistent on this point as well.

Arcome
21 February 2003, 05:08 PM
They weren't afraid of that has been. With their Sith powers Yoda would have been no match. "Oh look I'm Yoda, I'm a big dumb muppet who has to hide from the big bad Sith."

I'm just joking, Yoda is the greatest jedi ever, and one of the funniest little guys i know. In a book Luke finds a sith artifact on Dagoba. Yoda did have to fight and kill a sith that came there. He found it in the cave where Luke had to fight the illusion.

They also prolly would have known that Obi-wan was alive also. Like so many other people say "It just wasn't in the script."

Celebelen Khelekluin
22 February 2003, 08:40 AM
You're not understanding anything that Vergere said really...while I do believe that there is no "dark" or "light" and that its just inside the person, Vergere is the ONLY person we know of to mention this. The Jedi don't BELIEVE that, so Yoda wouldn't even THINK that way. Yoda, and ALL the Jedi for that matter, think in Dark and Light. Plain and simple. Vergere learned things in ways we DON'T know so speculation is the only thing that can be done unless it is explained later.
As for the topic...yep, I like the idea of a fight between Dooku and Yoda on Dagobah...whther it creates the Cave or not is up for grabs, but I'd love to see a Round 2. :lukejedi:

Vanger Chevane
22 February 2003, 09:49 AM
that Vergere, having been cut off from either Jedi or Sith for so long, has corrupted herself with this "Gray Force" philosophy, and that GL's Enforcers of Continuity will have her realize this & repent, reject it & go Dark, or simply have her killed or otherwise rendered harmless.

The Grey Philosophy tends to deny the concept of Living Force that has recently been forwarded in the First Priority Source for Canon-ness, the Movies. The idea that the Force is simply a neutral source of Power tends to not only deny the Living Force concept, it seems to me to be a way to very subtly seduce young Jedi to turn Sith...

"A little Force Lightning won't hurt young one. After all it is neither Good or Evil, just Power." Sounds like a Temptation to me.



It also seems to me that Vergere has long been manipulating people. The Vong DEception Sect Chick, Nom Anor, Tsavong Lah, now Jacen Solo...to what end we can only speculate, but it certainly appears that to Vergere the end most certainly justifies the means.

Reed
24 February 2003, 10:18 AM
I have gone through the same thing many of you have after reading Trator. I first thought that Vergere was just plain old evil and was trying to seduce Jacen to evil, then they actually stuck with the no dark side theory. I hated it at first and thought it went completely against what has been done in the movies.

What you have to think about is: does this actually contradict anything in the movies? Whenever they talk about the dark side does it refer to some third party that sits out there and tells people to be bad? No! The dark side is the evil in those that use the Force. C'mon think about from a logical level. If you were training in any martial art would you not be tempted to use some of the power you've attained simply because you can? Of course, a person who has trained to fight will often be tempted to pick a fight when unecessary because they can kick butt. Its the same with Force users in Star Wars.

Vergere's theory does not contradict anything, it is merely different. Saying there is no dark side is simply stating that the dark side is not an aspect of the Force but that it is part of those who use it. It is humanity that always has to look at everything in black and white. The Force is not good, it is not evil, nor is it neutral, it merely IS. The Force only refelcts what it finds in those who are sensitive to it.

So there is a dark side and a light side, but there is also a purple, pink, blue, orange, fusia, and whatever color you can think of side. It is an energy field that can be tapped into and used. It is merely how it si used that makes it dark or whatever.

takes a deep breath and struggles for composure

Jericho_Narcas
24 February 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Reed
I have gone through the same thing many of you have after reading Trator. I first thought that Vergere was just plain old evil and was trying to seduce Jacen to evil, then they actually stuck with the no dark side theory. I hated it at first and thought it went completely against what has been done in the movies.

What you have to think about is: does this actually contradict anything in the movies?

Yes. In fact, it contradicts just about everything Yoda told Luke about the Force.


Whenever they talk about the dark side does it refer to some third party that sits out there and tells people to be bad? No! The dark side is the evil in those that use the Force. C'mon think about from a logical level.

Ok, let's do that.


If you were training in any martial art would you not be tempted to use some of the power you've attained simply because you can?

On someone else just because I can? Absolutely not. That's not what martial arts is all about. Nor is it logical.


Of course, a person who has trained to fight will often be tempted to pick a fight when unecessary because they can kick butt. Its the same with Force users in Star Wars.

That's what a bully does. I might break a few boards or something for fun, but picking fights with people who aren't threatening me isn't my idea of having a good time.


Vergere's theory does not contradict anything, it is merely different.

It contradicts just about everything the movies have to say about the Force. Have you even seen the original trilogy? Statements like this lead me to believe that you haven't.


Saying there is no dark side is simply stating that the dark side is not an aspect of the Force but that it is part of those who use it.

And it's wrong. According to every Star Wars movie to date, there is in fact a Dark Side.


It is humanity that always has to look at everything in black and white.

Well, we are humans, and some things are black and white. It's only natural that we would see many things this way.


The Force is not good, it is not evil, nor is it neutral, it merely IS. The Force only refelcts what it finds in those who are sensitive to it.

So there is a dark side and a light side, but there is also a purple, pink, blue, orange, fusia, and whatever color you can think of side. It is an energy field that can be tapped into and used. It is merely how it si used that makes it dark or whatever.

takes a deep breath and struggles for composure

I disagree. The Dark Side has a definite influence, and it's bound up in negative emotions like anger, fear, and aggression. Yoda said all these things were from the Dark Side. He also said that anyone who opens themself up to the Dark Side runs the risk of being consumed by it.

Rogue Janson
24 February 2003, 12:24 PM
At the risk of taking this furter off-topic into a Traitor debate -

I may be giving a generous reading to Vergere's philosophy in the hope that it'll maintain consistency and I haven't read the following books, so I can only comment on Traitor but ...

Yoda does not say "negative emotions like anger, fear, and aggression" are from the dark side, he says they are the dark side.

If we see the Force as an energy field created by all living things, then the dark side comes only from the same source. It is not some exogenous force, like an interfering evil god, but bound up with the rest of the Force. As long as living things have fear, anger, hatred, suffering and the like, a force user will be tempted to act under the influence of these emotions and just as the force can reinforce positive emotions, it can reinforce the negative emotions. This is what the dark side is and when it overwhelms a person they call upon, or are fall to the dark side.

So I agree that "who opens themself up to the Dark Side runs the risk of being consumed by it" and if the NJO looks like it's going to change this, I will start to seriously take issue with it. But as of Traitor, I can't say that's necessarily going to happen.

Codym
24 February 2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Corsec025
Number One: Vergere is not a "bird chick" she is a Fosh... please brush up on your alien species before they come and kill you for being racist.

Number Two: The NJO does say that the Jedi Temple was built on a Nexus of the Dark Side, but wait... it isn't the dark side though is it? Jacen Solo assumes that the raw force is the dark side, but Vergere shows him the true way, and he acknowledges that.

Number Three: Vergere is not planning mass murder with a bunch of aliens. The Yuuzhan Vong are nothing like her. Vergere is on Jacen Solo's side.

Number Four: If I may refer you to the thread titled: The Battle of Endor... Outstanding odds or a Mission Impossible? You will understand that GL isn't always consistent.

Number Five: Do you honestly know what the NJO is? Have you even read the book Traitor? If you haven't, your opinion isn't worth a credit!

1: You brush up on your species. Fosh are a birdlike alien, hence the term "Bird Chick". I also don't appreciate being called a racist.

2: I have no idea what that has to with my post or this thread.

3: Vergere was constantly giving the Vong intelligence on the Republic, knowing full well what they intended to do. She did not stop doing this until Jacen escaped. I think that qualifies as plotting with alien invaders.

4: I have read the thread you mentioned. It has failed to prove any inconsistances on Lucas's part, but many on yours. And as Jericho pointed out, Lucas and the movies have been crystal clear on the exsistance of the Darkside.

5: I have read every NJO novel up until Destiny's Way.

If you had read my post, and I mean really read my post, you would have seen that I was pointing out that the NJO has no place in this discussion, especially since it has absolutely nothing do the subject at hand. I refrained from replying earlier since that would only encourage this thread to move further off topic. But since that hasn't happened, here you go.

If you wish to continue debating this, I suggest starting a new thread or finding a more appopriate old one. This one is all ready well off track.

Now for an attempt to get back on topic: I personally like Zahn's version of how he hides on Dagobah, but I doubt this will be how it goes down in the movie, simply due to the amount of exposition that would have to go along with it. It's fine we long time SW fans known about it, but it could easily lose anyone who has never experienced the EU.

George Lucas probably has something special up his sleeve, and I'm willing to wait until 2005 to find out.

Rogue Janson
24 February 2003, 04:11 PM
Do you mean specifically how he hides his force presence from the Emperor and Vader on Dagobah?

Personally, I suspect this may not have its own explanation. Possibly there will be some kind of demonstration in the film that it's not all that easy to find a jedi who doesn't want to be found to help cover it.
After all Obi-Wan manages to hide on Tatooine and he's never found. Vader only vaguely senses him when he's actually on the Death Star.

So I think it's sufficient to simply hide on a planet that's remote enough that it won't be visited without any additional 'masking' needed.

For anyone who wants to carry on arguing about NJO/Traitor/Force stuff I'd suggest the Traitor (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8783) thread in the NJO forum, where some discussion has gone on already. If you feel you really can't contain yourself, take it outside (to R&R).

Jedi Cahlwyn
24 February 2003, 06:24 PM
I don't think that Yoda has to use a lot of subterfuge to hide. I mean think of how HUGE the galaxy is. Millions of planets. He is an an uncharted planet deep in the Outer Rim. I seriously doubt that he would be found unless he left some sort of paper trail that would lead people to him.

Also, from what little we know (or has been speculated) the Dark Side Cave does mask his presence somewhat from nearby Force users... though the chances of someone getting "nearby" are slim to none.

I simply think that Master Yoda saw this old swampy planet during some adventure a few hundred years ago. When he found out what the Sith were doing, to save the Jedi and the galaxy he left Coruscant and went into hiding. I don't think he did so with any elaborate plan, he just left.

One Vergere/NJO point. I don't necessarily think that what Vergere said was wrong, but I do seriously think that she didn't know everything and that Luke or someone will figure it out and explain it in the end of the series. I think sometimes people take what they read WAY to literally and one sided. She could have FULLY been lying to Jacen, or had been brain-washed and lying to herself for all we know. Wait till the series is done. Like the whole Vong are immune to the Force debate. People are in heated arguements about something that hasn't been even half explained yet. Give it time people. :D

LL|Jerk
25 February 2003, 04:52 AM
hmmm...regarding "the dark side does not exist" argument, I believe that it is totally possible. The Jedi philosophy and the entire nature of the Force is not that of Christianity. In the Force, there is no God, and there is no Satan. Assuming that there fundementally "always is" a Dark Side implies that there is a Greater Power behind it.

It is quite believable in the Star Wars Universe that "the Dark Side" is actually the character's own negative thoughts and emotions.

We have all heard that the "Jedi Knights of Old" were MUCH more powerful than "modern" Jedi Knights. Perhaps Vergere figured out one of the keys to the ancient Jedi power.

Just for trivia, what is this new way of Understand the Force called? I tend to like the term "Vergere Jedi". It has a satisfying ring to it. :D

coldskier0320
25 February 2003, 05:52 AM
OK, dont anyone kill me. I haven't read any of the NJO EU so if that disqualifies my opinion, then so be it. But from what i hear, i think this Vergere has a definite point, i think alot of SW fans put 'jedi' in places where 'force' belongs, i think alot of people automatically assume that everything the jedi say about the Force is the unconditional gospel truth about the force and that there is simply no other way. I think that while alot of what the Jedi teach is true, there are some things in their teaching that is theirs alone, i believe the light and dark sides are one of these things. I think that the Force is just that, a force, it is not in and of itself good or evil, it is simply an energy field, without intelligence of its own, thus any 'good' or 'evil' application of it is totally dependent on the person through whom it is being channeled, thus the whole thing about being balanced with light and dark is...well...Jedi teaching.

Well, thats my two cents, i expect to be thouroughly contended but, thats the beauty of the HoloNet, happy hunting!