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LL|Jerk
19 February 2003, 08:15 PM
Okay, this thread is dedicated to the identification, explanation and speculation on and of physical and logical inconsistencies to be found in the Star Wars Universe.


Impossible Inconsistency #1:
RotJ: Battle of Endor: The Executor's Destruction

Events leading to the Executor's Destruction:
1. A-Wing attack destroys bridge shield generator
2. Out-of-control A-Wing rams into the bridge
3. Out-of-control Executor collides with Death Star

Inconsistnecies
1. A Super Star Destroyer (or any Star Destroyer for that matter) would never have such an obvious weakness as an external shield generator.
2. Need I mention the chances of an out-of-control starfighter smashing right into the Executor's bridge
3. This is the worst part. The Executor had not maneuvered to engage the Rebel forces at any time during the battle. Yet in the movie we see the A-Wing smash into the bridge and then the Executor collide with the Death Star. Considering that the Executor was not moving at all when the bridge was lost, how did it suddenly get right next to the Death Star? The Death Star II did not generate that much gravity due to its size, and the bridgeless Executor was not moving when it was hit. So how did it collide with the Death Star?

I must point out that by the time the required for the Executor to "drift" right into the Death Star II is more than enough time for the backup bridge to steer the ship away from such a catastrophe. On Star Destroyers, when the Bridge is completely destroyed, the backup bridge is used. And the possibility of the backup bridge actually piloting the Executor directly into the Death Star is not a possibility. It couldn't happen. At the backup bridge they have everything that is necessary to control the ship, and that includes sensors and communications.

Conclusion: The Executor couldn't have been destroyed by colliding with the Death Star II.

http://www.geocities.com/tk44a/endor.jpg

Dark Orbit
19 February 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by LL|Jerk
I must point out that by the time the required for the Executor to "drift" right into the Death Star II is more than enough time for the backup bridge to steer the ship away from such a catastrophe. On Star Destroyers, when the Bridge is completely destroyed, the backup bridge is used. And the possibility of the backup bridge actually piloting the Executor directly into the Death Star is not a possibility. It couldn't happen. At the backup bridge they have everything that is necessary to control the ship, and that includes sensors and communications

The real question is, did the Executor have a backup bridge, and if they didn't, why not?

IMHO I think it did or should have. For a SSD not to have a "secondary bridge" is either outstanding overconfidence or just clear stupidity(Sadly, common traits of my beloved Imperials):(

Even though I never heard of a ISD or SSD having a backup bridge, it actually wouldn't be such a bad idea. Having just one bridge/command area would be like putting all your eggs in one basket. If the enemy takes out the bridge, the ship would be done for.

As for the A-wing actually crashing into the bridge of the SSD, I believe the chances of that happening are nearly incalculable, having about the same odds of happening as the same A-wing spinning out of control and hitting the Emperor's Tower, killing Darth Vader, the Emperor and Luke Skywalker (which would could be the start of a very interesting Infinites' campaign)

What do all you people think? I await your ideas and thoughts.B)

LL|Jerk
19 February 2003, 09:27 PM
yes, actually in addition to working on these Inconsistencies I have been working on some ideas for different Infinities campaigns...

coldskier0320
20 February 2003, 03:49 AM
Before i start, let me make it clear that i am playing the devils advocate, basically, pulling plausible excuses for this stuff out of my @$$, but they are excuses nontheless, so here we go...

As far as external shield generators go, even the regular ISDs and older VSDs had them, yes i say its kind of a no-brainer too but maybe they get better shield coverage if theyre held out away from the superstructure or something idunno, just i noticed that basically ALL the other imp capital ships have em too

The chances of such a collision may not be so remote as one would think, if the Rebels had managed to knock out that vital section of shield (definitely hinted at by the scene preceding the A-wing crash maneuver, lol, oh nevermind) they would have certainly gotten a reading on the lack of a shield in that area. Furthermore, knowing that, the pilot of the A-Wing, cant think of the guys name right now, knowing that he was hit and going down, probably (sensibly) figured that he might as well capitalize on the opportunity and make his crash count, so, with the last bit of control he had over his doomed little fighter, he pointed it at the bridge and hit the gas.

Last, i believe this is a question of physics, keep in mind that the death star is MASSIVE, i mean REALLY MASSIVE, apparently massive enough to have the gravity to draw in the Executor. This isn't really such a stretch, though, considering that no ship at the time, no matter how large, didnt even begin to compare with the DS, so with its engine controls (in the bridge) destroyed by a wayward A-Wing, the SSDs pointy bulk is drawn in by the DS's gravity. Good for the Rebels, bad for the SSD. As for "how did it get right next to the death star?" I dont know what to tell ya, thats just one of those convenient things you can do when youre making the movie, i must admit that was a weak point in my case but, gee, George didnt leave me much to build it on, did he?

As far as a back up bridge, i dont know. Maybe there simply wasnt one, maybe they lost control too b/c the ship wasnt designed to be so close to a gravity well, maybe alot of things, but i think the main idea here is that the folks on that ship were having BIG problems, problems they weren't trained to handle, obviously. Thus, the crash.

Once again, i agree that its quite incredible, these are just a few things to consider:)

MassassiC
20 February 2003, 04:13 AM
I believe the external shield generators have been explained in various sources which refers to the massive energy output that could cause various electrical and biological problems if they were internal to the starship, therefore they are placed externally.
Back-up bridges are mainly the realm of Star Trek so that they can split up the ship for key story sequences which require it to split. Back-up systems in general are very rare in Star Wars, usually being relegated to back-up shields on Mon-Cal ships, and back-up Hyperdrives.
As for the SSD being close to the Death Star, I always assumed that there was a quiet interlude as it drifted closer and closer to the gravity well that is the Death Star and eventually hit, but we're only treated to the impact on-screen.
And just remember, all this improbabilities most likely spawn from the desperation of the Rebels and the spending of lots of Force Points to try and turn the tide.

coldskier0320
20 February 2003, 05:06 AM
OK then, MassassiC, then why do other ships seem to manage internal deflector shields? I mean, not to sound harsh but dont the Rebel ships mount theirs on the inside? Again, im not arguing, just curious rd: btw, who is this? its my PC almost to a tee!

Hey, 200th post! (i think)

coldskier0320
20 February 2003, 05:08 AM
Aargh! it didnt seem to work out, neone else having this prob? Who do we go to with this dissappointing development?:( oh well...

Rogue Janson
20 February 2003, 05:43 AM
I'd recommend you go and read the star wars technical commentaries' (http://theforce.net/swtc/) section on the Battle of Endor, even if you don't agree with everything that's said.

The first thing to note is Ackbar's order to concentrate all fire on the Executor. We can safely assume that the force available for this did not solely consist of a few A-Wings and that there were a significant number of rebel ships already firing on the executor. As I think I've pointed out elsewhere, the fact that Ackbar thought there was any point attacking the SSD suggests it had already taken some damage.

The shield generators are a contentious issue. The tech commentaries maintains that the globes are sensor domes, and that the loss of the deflector shield is merely a flashback from their destruction. I'm sure most SW capital ships do have backup bridges, but it could easily be that the destruction of the executor's main bridge caused enough disruption and damage to systems that it was not possible to get the ship back under control before it hit the DS. The real question is why do they not have a more protected bridge (I believe most modern warships have a "command bridge" inside the hull that is used during combat) - if you look at Nebulon-Bs and some mon cals, they also have very exposed bridges. I think this is just a quirk of SW design, one of the many "not strictly logical, but cool" things in the films - if you don't accept the tech commentaries' explanation of sensor domes, I'd put star destroyer shield generators in the same category.

I don't think the chances of a collision are all that unlikely, considering that the rebel fighters were presumably concentrating on the executor's now unshielded bridge section.

As to why the executor was suddenly near the Death Star, I'm not sure. It's possible the battle drifted that way, I'd have to watch the film again to see what it's like. In the novelisation, the battle does take place pretty close to the DS, as rebel ships are bombarding it.

Pel
20 February 2003, 07:40 AM
Maybe Admiral Piett, in his mad dash to avoid the hurtling A-wing, fell on the thruster controls right before being smashed, blown to bits, and sucked into the void of space. :D
:isd:

LL|Jerk
20 February 2003, 07:53 AM
I wish that you guys could know how worn out my brain is from thinking of all the inconsistencies to be found in the Star Wars movies...

Maybe the easiest way to solve the whole dilemma is for the community to create a "more likely" version of what would have happened...

And as this thread's author, I officially recommit the course of this thread to discussing "more likely" versions of what might have happened in the movies...:D

LL|Jerk
20 February 2003, 08:01 AM
The problem with discussing Infinities possibilities at this point, though, is the fact that Episode 3 has not been released yet, therefore we cannot depict reliable versions of what "may have happened", because we don't know what will happen in Episode 3.

Corsec025
20 February 2003, 12:33 PM
The Executor shouldn't have been destroyed at all! For anyone who has read Michael Stackpole's X-wing series they will understand:

In the Bacta War (Book 4), Rogue Squadron and a massive conglomeration of ships (I think it was somewhere around 300) BOMBARDED the Lusankya with Proton Torpedoes! And the Lusankya was still operational after that (it is used in the NJO series)

Also from the NJO series we understand that SSDs did in fact have a backup bridge. For those of you have read Rebel Stand you will remember the Lusankya's spear ramming and killing Czulkang Lah's Worldship. Where did Eldo Davip control this from? It was the backup bridge! Aaron says that exact thing in his book!

As for Arvel Crynyd destroying the bridge, I think it is safe to assume that he was not so much out of control (he still was a little;) ) as on a mission to be a legend, and yet his name is hardly known, much less legendary!

LL|Jerk
21 February 2003, 11:44 AM
Impossible Inconsistency #2:
RotJ: Battle of Endor: The Ground Battle

Events in the Battle of Endor Ground Battle:
1. Rebels team up with Ewoks
2. Rebels break into shield generator bunker
3. Rebels are caught and taken outside
4. Ewok ambush
5. Shield generator bunker is left totally unguarded
6. Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST
7. Shield Generator is destroyed

Inconsistnecies
1. R2-D2's ability to hack practically any Imperial code
2. Ewok affect on the Battle is overestimated
3. No security cameras outside the back door of the shield generator bunker
4. Stormtroopers didn't put the rebels in prison the first time they caught them
4. Stormtroopers never radio for backup
5. Stormtroopers don't defend the shield generator whatsoever

R2-D2: The Ultimate Hacker

Throughout the Trilogies, we have all seen R2-D2's amazing skills as a computer and security system hacker. A standard R2 unit being the greatest hacker of all time is not very plausible. If that is how good R2-D2 is at hacking security systems, think what REAL slicers could do! The Empire would be on it's knees!

Those "horribly dangerous" Ewoks

Another inconsistency to be found in the ground battle is the affect that the Ewoks had on the battle. They were included in the Trilogy for Comic Relief, not to open a can of whoop butt on the best stormtroopers in the Empire. In the "Battle of Endor" thread there seems to be a solid core of Holonet members who seem to think that Ewoks are to be revered and feared by all Imperials for their superior battle skillz. I just don't think that that is the case here.

[The absense of] Imperial Security Cameras and Guards

The plausibility of security cameras being absent at the "back door" of the Imperial complex may also be a worthwhile point. If there had been a better security system in the bunker, it is quite doubtful that the Rebels would have been able to break into the complex at all. It just doesn't make sense that you build a shield generator to protect your superweapon, but you can't even spare 1 security camera to watch the back entrance of the shield generator.

And the absense of guards in the interior of the shield generator bunker is also not plausible, for obvious reasons.

The Capture of the Rebels

After the Rebels were caught trying to sabotage the shield generator, why were they not handcuffed? And after the Ewok ambush, how did all the Rebels get their weapons back?

Imperial Communications During the Battle

The entire Rebel victory in the Ground Battle requires several unlikely events to occur. You have to assume that the Imperials panicked so much that not one stormtrooper radioed in to tell headquarters that they were being ambushed by Ewoks. The likelihood of the Imperials not calling for any reinforcements during the battle is impossible.

Imperial Strategy During the Ground Battle

Another major inconsistency in the ground battle is the fact that NONE of the stormtroopers had decided that defending the bunker was important anymore. That was the whole reason the legion was stationed on the Sancturary Moon, to defend that bunker.

I guess that stormtroopers never heard of following orders. :D


Conclusion: There was no possible and plausible way for the Empire to lose the Battle of Endor.

http://www.geocities.com/tk44a/endor-2.jpg

Sabre
21 February 2003, 12:17 PM
While you're on the subject of realism, why not harp on lightsabers, the Force, and why we never see restroom labels on Hoth?

I seem to recall the opening line of the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 theme: "If you wonder how they eat and breathe and other science facts, repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, I should really just relax.'"

LL|Jerk
21 February 2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Sabre
While you're on the subject of realism, why not harp on lightsabers, the Force, and why we never see restroom labels on Hoth?

I seem to recall the opening line of the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 theme: "If you wonder how they eat and breathe and other science facts, repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, I should really just relax.'"
Not realism. Logical and physical inconsistencies in the movies. That's what this thread is about. By the way, since you seem to have changed the subject, do you have an answer for the Executor paradox detailed above?

Obviously Star Wars is "not just a show". I will repeat that a multi billion-dollar storyline should make sense.

If you feel like taking a shot at me, from now on please take it in the "Battle of Endor" thread...alot of that seems to already be taking place there, if you haven't noticed.

Codym
21 February 2003, 12:26 PM
1: Artoo is not a standard Astromech unit, nor can he just hack into any system he feels like. He is a very good slicer, but he has limits, and the films has demonstrated quite well. How you sumise a good hacker could bring down the Empire is beyond me, but then, so are most of your rants.

2: The Ewoks effect on the battle is not over estimated. We see their effectiveness on screen, and they use real, plausible tactics. Saying that they were added only for comic relief just because they are short and furry is like saying Gollum is comic relief because he looks and speaks funny. The Ewoks were always meant to trounce the Empire forces. Comic relief (which came from only one or two Ewoks) was incidental.

3: Who's to say there weren't any camera's outside? They could have been destroyed in the battle. (Wild speculation, I know, but so is everything LLJerk throws up.)

4:They were disarming them and rounding them up much like soldiers do to prisoners of war in the real world. I take it they are wrong too?

5: Says who? Just because help never arrived does not mean the call was put out. (I seem to remember a huge space battle going on at the time.)

6: The rebels simply get there first. Han, Leia and several Rebel troops are seen defending positions there throughout the fight. The stormtroopers spend the rest of the fight trying to retake it and fend off attacks by both rebels and Ewok forces.

You like to call a lot of things inconsistances, but usually you mean your opinions of how you think things should done. That's fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but next time you wish to debate military tactics, gain some grounding in them rather than making up nonesense on the spot. (And look up the meaning of the word Inconsistance, you seem to not know what it means.)

dgswensen
21 February 2003, 12:51 PM
I don't know if this has been previously mentioned or not, but... in the ROTJ novelization, the Executor goes on a huge joyride through the Imperial and Rebel fleets, taking out many smaller ships as it goes, and wreaking unimaginable havoc before it finally broadsides into the Death Star.

As a kid, I read the novel before I saw the movie, and I remember being a little let down that the Executor's demise was less spectacular than that. But I'm certain, once again, it was a budgetary concern -- they just didn't have the money to shoot that scene the way they wanted.

The Star Wars universe aside, we're talking about films here, and films are full of compromises, cut scenes, and things that just go undone because of time or money. To bring those sort of real-world limitations into the fictional universe and point your finger at them as inconsistencies is, I think, a bit fallacious. They did the best they could with the early 80s SFX technology they had.

Celebelen Khelekluin
21 February 2003, 03:56 PM
This probably isn't the answer you want to hear, but it really is the best thing to explain EVERY "inconsistency" in Star Wars. That is, Lucas has created Star Wars to be like the old "Saturday Matinee" style movies and such. That's actually one big reason that people seem to overlook a lot. Its "cheesy" because of this. Yes, we can go into the technical significance of this, that, etc, but that doesn't change anything in the end.
And as much as I LOVE the novels and other EU material, you can't really use it to compare to the movies because they are other individual's interpretations of Lucas' universe. So, they could just be getting it "wrong" to tell the story THERE way.
Just food for though. :wedge: :zev: :porkins: :hobbie: :janson:

Sabre
21 February 2003, 04:09 PM
I think you misunderstand, I'm not taking a shot at you at all. My point is, this is how the story goes, because it isn't based on a true story. Why doesn't it seem logical that the rebels would win? Because if it were a real situation and the odds were that badly against them, it would seem impossible. But it isn't a real situation. Logic isn't as important to a film maker as telling a good story that will sell tickets. Lucas wanted the rebels to win in his story (despite overwhelming odds), so the rebels win. That's all the logic there is to it. The rebels winning the battle (and the other particulars of the story) is just like a lightsaber: You have to accept that it might defy the logic of the real world. No matter how many billions of dollars it makes, it is still just a show.

Corsec025
22 February 2003, 11:50 AM
Well sabre I find your lightsaber comments, for the lack of a better word, stupid. This is not meant to assualt your intelligence, it is just that you are comparing two unlike things, but not metaphorically.

A lightsaber is a piece of technology. You can't look at it and argue that just because we don't have the technology to make a sword of energy that the SW universe can't. The battle of Endor isn't technology, it is failure by better trained, better armed soldiers.

dgswensen
22 February 2003, 12:18 PM
The American Revolutionaries battled against better trained, better armed soldiers, too, and they won, mostly because of the tactics they used.

I think the parallels there are deliberate. Stormtroopers march in orderly phalanx. Like the British, they were unprepared for the kind of chaotic, guerilla warfare the Ewoks were bringing to them.

Nova Spice
22 February 2003, 12:23 PM
Well sabre I find your lightsaber comments, for the lack of a better word, stupid. This is not meant to assualt your intelligence, it is just that you are comparing two unlike things, but not metaphorically.

Okay, that's it....I've seen quite enough lately. It is very interesting how all of a sudden people decide to flame others after the rating system was disabled. It's quite hypocritical IMO and its totally improper in a wonderful place such as this.

CorSec, I realize you're a new member here and I realize that you may not be familiar with some of the "ins" and "outs" of this forum, but blatantly calling someone's comments stupid is out of bounds.

I've enjoyed my years on this forum not only because of the people, but also because of the great discussion, and lack of flaming. Unfortunately it seems that some folks who have been H-net members for less than a month are causing lots of flames.

Though I am not an Admin or a Mod, I still feel I have a right to inform you to cease calling others opinions stupid due to at least my longevity on the boards. So in essence, please refrain from comments that flame or blatantly bash other members. ;)

Dark Orbit
22 February 2003, 12:35 PM
To tell you all the truth, these threads are boring. What are the people trying to prove, that Starwars is dumb? My bad, I forgot, this is a Starwars RPG forum, designed to help people with swrpg and for the advancement of both SW and SWRPG, not to say how stupid/inconsistant it is and how it should be done.

Unless you have the power to cause real change, all we're ever going to be doing is having a back and forth argument, which will never end and only escalate when Ep. 3 is made.

By attacking SW, you are also attacking what the holonet is about.

We could argue till we're Yoda's age and never resolve anything. Reading these threads depresses me, and as Darth Vader would say

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

I hope that someone puts an end to threads like this.

P.S. I applaude Grimace for putting an end to the Battle of Endor thread.

Grimace
22 February 2003, 02:35 PM
Let's just knock things down a peg or two here. No more calling people's posts or opinions stupid. If you want to refute someone's points, do so in a polite fashion, or don't post!

Further condescending comments towards others will cause this thread to be closed and offending parties to be warned. Consider this a general warning to anyone else who posts in this thread.

LL|Jerk
22 February 2003, 09:24 PM
Codym, I feel that your listed counterpoints to Impossible Inconsistency #2 are somewhat incomplete. I look forward to viewing a revised version of them in the very near future. B) Thank you for responding to Impossible Inconsistency #2, Codym. I am looking forward to the many more posts that you will be making in the Impossible Inconsistencies thread in the near future :D

And Celebelen Khelekluin, dgswensen, and Sabre, my response to the statment that "the movies don't have to make sense" for whatever reason has always been:

"A multi billion-dollar storyline/movie should make sense."


There's no need for anybody to get all excited around here, it's all cool. B) As soon as we can get more than 1 response to Impossible Inconsistency #2, I will begin working on Impossible Inconsistency #3. (it'll be a good one, believe me :D)

Nova Spice
22 February 2003, 09:50 PM
There's no need for anybody to get all excited around here, it's all cool.

Agreed, once everyone learns not to name-call and flame, it'll all be cool. Discussion is the issue, not the bashing of other members.

And believe me, Grimace is not one to play around. After his warning, don't even think for a moment that he'll tolerate any more name-calling and flaming nonsense. I suggest everyone heed his post. ;)

Continue the discussion, without the condescending remarks I might add! :artoo:

Rogue Janson
23 February 2003, 04:08 AM
"A multi billion-dollar storyline/movie should make sense."
One question. Why?
I think you're missing the sequence of events, which was:

Story that doesn't make sense then multi-billion dollars.

But I'm worried I'm bringing up old arguments here, so I won't go on.

MassassiC
23 February 2003, 04:15 AM
1) R2-D2 is an exceptional droid, and has been allowed to build up skills and personality over several decades. It could have also got some idea of the codes when on the Death Star.
2) Ewoks used guerilla tactics which a well-regimented army has a hard time fighting against (real-world examples being the American war of independance, Vietnam, and various elements of WWII).
3) Security oversights happen, especially when you feel you aren't under threat (after all, there's a Death Star overhead which probably has more than enough troops and fighters on-board to stop any ewok attack (as that was the only perceived threat at the time). :ewok:
4a) They had just brought the rebels out of the bunker, and so had not had chance to transfer them to a prison (and maybe, since they are soldiers and not police, they had no restraints other than the threat of 40 or so Stormtroopers with guns)
4b) I personally would put this down to pride and panic. At the start it is hard to follow what is happening (if you're in it), and then near the end, they may have called for help, but how long would that have taken to arrive before the generator was destroyed and the rebels fled the scene?
5) The Stormtroopers were more interested in defending themselves as they felt the threat to the shield generator was taken care of before all heck broke loose. That and as has been said previously, the rebels were shooting from it.

Conclusion: The Stormtroopers sent to guard the generator against the Ewoks fell to tactics they weren't expecting.

And as a side-note...


multi billion-dollar storyline should make sense

How many Hollywood films have you seen in the last decade or so (at the very least) that actually made sense and were totally internally consistant (big budget or not)? :gungan: :sabersml:

Celebelen Khelekluin
23 February 2003, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by LL|Jerk
[b"A multi billion-dollar storyline/movie should make sense.

You've missed the point here. The GENRE of the movie defines EVERYTHING and the genre of Star Wars is less Sci-Fi and more "Saturday Matinee". The Good guys are GOOD, the Bad guys are BAD. The Good guys beat the Bad guys in the end. Its simplistic, but that is what it SHOULD be for the genre. Lucas is NOT trying to make films that make SENSE(...or at least not to everyone), he's making films that reflect back to a time of movies long gone. THAT is why the acting is "bad", THAT is why the story has so many "holes", THAT is why impossible odds are possible for the Good guys. Its in the GENRE. Argue it as much as you want, but it comes down to the fact that Lucas is, in a sense, reviving a style of film from the old days before a lot of us were born. Because of this, a lot of people aren't USED to this type of movie, and that's why it gets so much criticism...(well, TPM could be argued differently, but that isn't the point.:D)
:lukejedi:

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 06:04 AM
1) R2-D2 is an exceptional droid, and has been allowed to build up skills and personality over several decades. It could have also got some idea of the codes when on the Death Star.
Perhaps a worthwhile explanation, but has some interesting ramifications for the rest of the Universe. Just because R2-D2 hasn't had a memory wipe in about 70 years, does that make him a superhacker? Remember, this shield generator was built to protect the most powerful weapon in the Universe, so wouldn't it have a decent security system? And what about other droids like R2 who haven't had a memory wipe in a while? I guess they must be good hackers too.


2) Ewoks used guerilla tactics which a well-regimented army has a hard time fighting against (real-world examples being the American war of independance, Vietnam, and various elements of WWII).
Ewoks also used bows, arrows and spears. An interesting detail to be found in RotJ is that George Lucas fails to show ONE EWOK being shot by a stormtrooper, yet we see all these funny scenes where the stormtroopers are dispatched by these giant teddy bears. Quite an inconsistency there, wouldn't ya say? 8o I will make a follow-up post concerning the Ewoks.


3) Security oversights happen, especially when you feel you aren't under threat (after all, there's a Death Star overhead which probably has more than enough troops and fighters on-board to stop any ewok attack (as that was the only perceived threat at the time).
4a) They had just brought the rebels out of the bunker, and so had not had chance to transfer them to a prison (and maybe, since they are soldiers and not police, they had no restraints other than the threat of 40 or so Stormtroopers with guns)
4b) I personally would put this down to pride and panic. At the start it is hard to follow what is happening (if you're in it), and then near the end, they may have called for help, but how long would that have taken to arrive before the generator was destroyed and the rebels fled the scene?
5) The Stormtroopers were more interested in defending themselves as they felt the threat to the shield generator was taken care of before all heck broke loose. That and as has been said previously, the rebels were shooting from it.

What to assume about Imperials in the Original Trilogy
1) Assume Imperials are always overconfident
2) Assume Imperials always act stupidly
3) Assume Imperials never use common sense
4) Assume Imperials always underestimate their enemies.
5) Assume Imperials always lose, even with a superior force
6) Assume Imperials will always make the wrong choice
7) Assume Imperials cannot adapt to new tactics
8) Assume Imperials will panic at the worst possible moment
9) Assume Imperials will not use the radios in their helmets to communicate with each other

I think that this covers counterpoints 3-5.

I do have to say that Episode 3 WILL be quite interesting. It will have been the first time in theatre that George Lucas will HAVE to depict the Empire actually winning some battles. LOL!!! I can't wait!!! :D

Rogue Janson
23 February 2003, 06:28 AM
I do have to say that Episode 3 WILL be quite interesting. It will have been the first time in theatre that George Lucas will HAVE to depict the Empire actually winning some battles. LOL!!! I can't wait!!!
Um, except for the battle of Hoth (that's one out of the three/four major battles in the OT).

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 06:39 AM
Celebelen Khelekluin, I would like to point out that this thread was created to answer one question:

HOW?

Now you are asking me another question:

WHY?

I have learned the hard way that WHY is a question that the Holonet isn't ready for yet. If you have any doubts, feel free to read the entire Battle of Endor thread. :raised:

You will also find that there were many people like youself that have asked me those types of questions before, and none of them were ready for what I unleashed upon them. :D In this thread, you don't need to explain to us why Star Wars doesn't have to make sense, because the whole point of the thread is exploring how it doesn't make sense.:raised:

If you want, I can start another thread called Why Star Wars doesn't have to make sense, if that's where you want to take this. :D

Basically, what I'm saying here is:
You want to take this outside, Celebelen?
LOL sorry, I just had to say that! :D

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 06:48 AM
Janson, even the Battle of Hoth wasn't a total victory for the Empire! The Rebels escaped!

LOL!!! :D

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 06:56 AM
Wicket W. Warrick:
The New Face of Terror

http://www.geocities.com/tk44a/wicket.jpg

I know that I made a post similar to this one in the Battle of Endor thread, but I just can't resist when you guys bring up the battle skillz of all these Ewoks!

and if the image doesn't come up:
http://www.geocities.com/tk44a/wicket.jpg

ROTFLMAO!!! :DB)8o:D

Celebelen Khelekluin
23 February 2003, 07:52 AM
The WHY explains the HOW...but you know what, forget it. I'm out of this. If you won't accept the tons of things people have presented again and again, then this is just pointless. There is a fine line between a discussion and an argument, and it sure seems to me you're trying to just provoke an argument. I'm not in the mood for that. Have fun ignoring what everyone says.
:lukejedi:

Ardent
23 February 2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by LL|Jerk
Perhaps a worthwhile explanation, but has some interesting ramifications for the rest of the Universe. Just because R2-D2 hasn't had a memory wipe in about 70 years, does that make him a superhacker? Remember, this shield generator was built to protect the most powerful weapon in the Universe, so wouldn't it have a decent security system? And what about other droids like R2 who haven't had a memory wipe in a while? I guess they must be good hackers too.

Actually, I think it's stated somewhere that R2-D2 is something like 250 years old during the events of Episode IV. He's probably only had a memory wipe once or twice in that entire span. You're talking about a droid with the mental development of a crotchety 90-year-old man and the requisite skills and expertise that kind of lifetime builds WITHOUT THE NUISANCE OF FORGETFULNESS. R2-D2 is by no means a "standard droid." He is, in fact, the epitome of hero and the hold-out droid hero in the series (C-3PO is also heroic at points, but is more comedy relief than anything else). Hell, he's almost single-handedly (armedly?) responsible for the longevity of the Skywalkers! Don't ever underestimate R2. ;)


Ewoks also used bows, arrows and spears. An interesting detail to be found in RotJ is that George Lucas fails to show ONE EWOK being shot by a stormtrooper, yet we see all these funny scenes where the stormtroopers are dispatched by these giant teddy bears. Quite an inconsistency there, wouldn't ya say? 8o I will make a follow-up post concerning the Ewoks.

I could kill you with my bow and arrow, too. Right through your kevlar vest. Right through your plate mail armor. Right through pretty much whatever protection you chose to wear. Now, everyone will admit it was weird not seeing Ewoks die but...who wants to see a teddy bear die? That'd give people (and kids, esp.) nightmares. We're forced to assume Ewok casualties. Frankly, taking it on faith is nothing new to Star Wars.


What to assume about Imperials in the Original Trilogy
1) Assume Imperials are always overconfident
2) Assume Imperials always act stupidly
3) Assume Imperials never use common sense
4) Assume Imperials always underestimate their enemies.
5) Assume Imperials always lose, even with a superior force
6) Assume Imperials will always make the wrong choice
7) Assume Imperials cannot adapt to new tactics
8) Assume Imperials will panic at the worst possible moment
9) Assume Imperials will not use the radios in their helmets to communicate with each other[/b]

From what we can see of their leadership (Ozzel, Needa, Piett, Palpatine, Vader) these are more or less the hallmarks of Imperial brilliance. A military is only as capable as its' commander.


I do have to say that Episode 3 WILL be quite interesting. It will have been the first time in theatre that George Lucas will HAVE to depict the Empire actually winning some battles. LOL!!! I can't wait!!! :D

I'm with Janson here: did you just...miss The Empire Strikes Back? It's title, I think, is self-explanitory.


Janson, even the Battle of Hoth wasn't a total victory for the Empire! The Rebels escaped!

Which Rebels are you talking about? The 1/4-1/2 of them fortunate enough to have starships/get on a transport? Hundreds, maybe thousands of Rebels died on Hoth. In the trenches, underneath AT-ATs...whatever. They DIED. The Rebels LOST the battle. So what if some of them escape? We know some Imperials escaped Endor (ahem, Pellaeon). Forces from the opposing side evading mop-up efforts is almost routine in any war.

If you want to pick apart logic, play with mine. I find that it's especially tasty with grits.

Rogue Janson
23 February 2003, 09:01 AM
Janson, even the Battle of Hoth wasn't a total victory for the Empire! The Rebels escaped!
You're changing the terms here, from 'victory' to 'total victory'. By this logic, the Battle of Hoth is only comparable with the Battle of Endor, because both presented opportunities to completely destroy the opposition (within the films, this is). Naturally then, there can only be total victory in each trilogy, at the end. The Emperor has already had his total victory, which you (and the rest of us) are looking forward to seeing in epIII.

Rogue Janson
23 February 2003, 09:20 AM
What to assume about Imperials in the Original Trilogy
1) Assume Imperials are always overconfident
2) Assume Imperials always act stupidly
3) Assume Imperials never use common sense
4) Assume Imperials always underestimate their enemies.
5) Assume Imperials always lose, even with a superior force
6) Assume Imperials will always make the wrong choice
7) Assume Imperials cannot adapt to new tactics
8) Assume Imperials will panic at the worst possible moment
9) Assume Imperials will not use the radios in their helmets to communicate with each other
As I've said before, I don't completely disagree with you on these points, but they do not constitute a set of rules that are always followed.

I can pick up quite a few occasions where the villains are successful - trackign the Falcon back to Yavin, the Battle of Hoth, Vader's correct decision that the rebels were on Hoth, Boba Fett tracking Han to Cloud City, the Imperials trash compacting the heroes, the Emperor's whole plan at Endor, which was really pretty impressive. You miss the fact that the heroes are always hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and only their heroism - the crucial factor the villains can't match - keeps them from being destroyed.

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 09:35 AM
Point taken. I can remove the "always" and "never" from the list, but the Imperials have exhibited all of those traits save for the last one at one point or another in the movies.

Again, every single point on the list save for the last one has been mentioned by a Holonet member somewhere along the line (most often in the Battle of Endor thread).

I simply got tired of hearing lame excuses for the Empire always losing.

:D

Corr Terek
23 February 2003, 10:24 AM
I think I have a way to solve this dispute, which I have seen going on for some time now. We'll roleplay the ground Battle of Endor.

No, I'm actually serious. Think about it -- if we create a thread in the RP forum, find an impartial GM or two, it would be the best possible medium to test the respective theories. LLJerk (and whoever else is interested) can run the Imperial side of things, while those of us on the other side of the argument can work with the Rebels and their furry little allies, the Ewoks.

Since I'm assuming that LLJerk does not follow any of the villain laws, he would be able to test his theories of how things should've been done quite handily.

Yes, it's prolly a stupid idea but it just might work.

LL|Jerk
23 February 2003, 10:44 AM
A better idea might be just to start a new thread specifically for discussing Infinities ideas, which would be more realistic than running a roleplaying session for it.

Sounds like a good idea to me, at least...:D

Grimace
23 February 2003, 10:48 AM
Sounds like a good idea. With that, this thread is closed.