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Crin Daroota
9 March 2003, 08:23 PM
Hi all,

I have a question for you to contemplate (and hopefully answer). Does a Padawan learner have to study under a Jedi Master, or can he go wandering around the galaxy with a Jedi Knight as his mentor? In Episode 1, Obi-Wan studies under Master Jinn, in Episode 2 they refer to him as Master Kenobi, so it was okay for him to have Anakin as a Padawan. Is this always the case, or could it happen that a Padawan could end up studying under a Jedi Knight? Say, if, perhaps, there happened to be a shortage of available Jedi Masters at the moment? I'd like to hear all your opinions on this one. Thanks in advance!

Ardent
9 March 2003, 09:25 PM
A Jedi Knight becomes a Jedi Master after tutoring their first Padawan. So, to answer your question, yes. Or no. However you wish to see it. ;)

The only requirement that's clear is a Jedi Master has to be a Jedi Knight and have a Padawan to be a Jedi Master. From there it's whatever you want to mish and mash...

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
9 March 2003, 09:26 PM
Well, I'd say that a Knight becomes a Master after the successful training of his first Padawan (which Kenobi never did) or when they 'assume' the title like the real Jedi Master C'boath did. So to answer your question: A Jedi Knight would have to take on a Padawan as a Knight a one point in time unless they didn't want to that is.

Crin Daroota
9 March 2003, 10:34 PM
Thanks guys,
That helps a lot. I was thinking about putting a Padawan under a Knight in my game but I wasn't sure that would be okay. Now I know it basically just means it has to be his first Padawan. That's easy enough to incorporate. Thanks again!:lukejedi::kenobi:

Codym
10 March 2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Crin Daroota
Hi all,

I have a question for you to contemplate (and hopefully answer). Does a Padawan learner have to study under a Jedi Master, or can he go wandering around the galaxy with a Jedi Knight as his mentor? In Episode 1, Obi-Wan studies under Master Jinn, in Episode 2 they refer to him as Master Kenobi, so it was okay for him to have Anakin as a Padawan. Is this always the case, or could it happen that a Padawan could end up studying under a Jedi Knight? Say, if, perhaps, there happened to be a shortage of available Jedi Masters at the moment? I'd like to hear all your opinions on this one. Thanks in advance!

The Master reference to Kenobi is honorific, and does not actually reflect his station. This was clarified in the Ask The Jedi Council section of the official site. As previously pointed out, he never actually reaches the rank of Jedi Master.

Faraer
10 March 2003, 06:52 AM
This (http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020606.html) is the page Codym mentions. To add to the other replies: There likely aren't enough Jedi Masters to train all the Padawans anyway. Training a Padawan to Knighthood is a criterion for becoming a Jedi Master, but it's not sufficient of itself. And per George Lucas, a Jedi student leaves his or her Clan and becomes a Padawan aged seven or eight.

Errin Orwain
20 July 2003, 03:19 PM
Hate to disagree with you Codym, but, according to the RCR pg 297
Obi-Wan Kenobi was a Jedi Master at the start of "Attack of the Clones"
speciffically he was 10th level overall and had the following class levels: Jedi Guardian 7; Jedi Master 2; and Jedi Investigator 1.
By the time he met Luke he was 15th level with the following class levels: Jedi Guardian 7; Jedi Master 5; and Jedi Investigator 3.:kenobi:

Jeskan
20 July 2003, 05:57 PM
A Jedi Knight becomes a Master when he/she takes on a Padawan, not when he/she completes the training of the padawan. If the council deems you worthy of having a Padawan they deem you worthy of being a master. Also, read the requirements for aquiring the jedi master PrC.

Codym
20 July 2003, 09:46 PM
According to the offical site, as mentioned by myself and Faraer, Obi-Wan never achieves the statis of Jedi Master. So either the offical site is wrong, or WOTC is. In this case, I personally side with the offical site since it does not really make much sense to be proclaimed a Master simply by taking on an apprentice. Other than that, you can believe which ever version you wish.

Corwin
20 July 2003, 11:11 PM
But a Padawan always addresses his mentor as "Master" regardless of the mentorís actual rank.

Errin Orwain
21 July 2003, 04:40 PM
Sorry, but I would have to say that the Official site is mistaken. I mean I can understand a Padawan calling their teacher Master, but when the likes of Mace Windu, Count Dooku, and Yoda call you Master Kenobi, then a Master you must be.

Lucas Carr
4 August 2003, 09:34 AM
Perhaps there are more then one definition to the term "Master" and Kenobi fulfills one, but not the other.

Errin Orwain
4 August 2003, 02:21 PM
That may well be, however I would think that he was teaching a padawan (which would meet one possible definition), was afforded the respect a Master by the finest Masters in the Jedi Order (could meet a second definition), and posses the PrC Jedi Master (meeting the definition in the d20 system). How many ways must he be considered a Master?
:kenobi:

Captain Kranz
9 August 2003, 11:50 PM
If I remember correctly, my all-star Ki Adi Mundi never trained a padawan - and is a master ( in the high council ).

Dr_Worm
10 August 2003, 12:41 AM
Ki Adi Mundi did train a padawan. A'sharad the Tuskan son of a Jedi Master. He quit and went back to his people after touching the Darkside while hunting Aurra Sing.

BrianDavion
10 August 2003, 12:52 AM
we should also look at a scene in ATOC regarding ANAKIN as intresting material in the discussion of "what makes a jedi a master". I am thinking of the scene where they are meeting with Queen Jamila, in that scene someone mistakingly refers to Anakin as "Master Jedi" now this person was mistaking shown when Padme CORRECTS him, however look at how he's corrected "ohh no, Anakin isn't a jedi yet he's still a padawan learner" this to me suggests that Jedi master may actualy be a term your allowed to take up when no longer a padawan, in effect the terms Jedi Master and Jedi Knight may actually be interchangeable. now I know this is a blow to the EU but we're cont antly being challanged wi th our pre-conceptions about the jedi order with the prequals. remember 5 years ago we thought the jedi didn't mind marraige :)

Codym
10 August 2003, 01:57 AM
The "Master Jedi" line has appeared in both prequels, and from the way it is used, it does not seem to denote rank of the person being addressed, but rather the polite title, much the same as Sir or M'lady, so probably doesn't really pertain to this discussion much.

And as Dr Worm stated, Ki Adi Mundi trained a padawan between the two movies (I didn't know the particulars other than he was a Tusken Raider - thanks Doc), graduating from Jedi Knight in the Phantom Menace (and the only non-Master on the council) to Jedi Master in Attack of the Clones.

Errin Orwain
10 August 2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Captain Kranz
If I remember correctly, my all-star Ki Adi Mundi never trained a padawan - and is a master ( in the high council ).

Acctually Ki-Adi Mundi is considered remarkable because he is the only member of the Jedi Councel that is a Jedi Knight at the time of Phantom Menace, not a Master. Ten years later in AotC he was considered a Jedi Master.

go to : www.starwars.com/databank/character/

Church Climbin Ryan
13 August 2003, 05:52 AM
It's important to sift through all the EU crap when considering this question, as well as any ideas given to you by the rpg, because clearly the game is NOT the be all, end all translation of Star Wars.

I've always assumed that the title "Master Jedi" was just a respectful way to address a Jedi. Despite what rank a Jedi holds within the Order, outside of it they are greatly respected, and rightly so.

I would liken this to the middle ages, when certain craftsman and laborers were referred as "Master Carpenter" or "Master Blacksmith", etc, especially if you didn't know their name.

It's also pretty clear that despite having a Padawan, Obi-Wan is not considered a Jedi Master. Notice that when he's speaking directly to Mace Windu or Yoda, he refers to them as "Master" whearas they call him Obi-Wan. There is one exception, when Yoda and Obi-Wan are with the younglings, and Yoda refers to Obi-Wan as "Master Kenobi" to the Younglings, but probably only to encourage them to call Obi-Wan "Master Kenobi".

Did that get kind of confusing, or is it just me?

Rouge8
13 August 2003, 06:10 AM
True, though Ki-Adi never finished training his apprentice. But he still is considered a master.

Church Climbin Ryan
13 August 2003, 08:01 AM
Well, that isn't saying much, because as far as canon is concerned he may have never had a Padawan. If he ever had a Padawan, chances are he most probably wasn't a Tusken Raider. Lucas has been pretty clear about what the Sand People are, and arent.

I dont' know the story of the character, but if the Jedi didn't find Anakin until he was eight, how did they manage to find a Tusken Raider and convince his tribe or whatever to let him go with them without having to kill them all?

Krad-edis
13 August 2003, 08:41 AM
Lets all try and keep in mind that Kenobi, by Episode II, had been teaching Anakin for ten or so years. I can see that by that time Masters and students alike would be calling him or referring to him or someone of his status to be a "Master", and most likely as an honorary status. An honorary status at best. Has he mastered the Force? An impossible task at that, but still, compared to Yoda, Dooku or Windu's level of mastery....obviously not. Has he been able to successfully train a Padawan to be a Jedi Knight? No. He is a Jedi Knight. Yoda told him that he was granted the level of Jedi Knight at the end of Episode I. Perhaps he took the Jedi Master Prestige class, but still I think mastery is a little more involved than that. End of Episode I, he was a Knight. Beginning of Episode II, he was an accomplished Jedi Knight and instructor of an experienced Padawan, and hence held the honorary title of Master.

Perhaps he is on the road to Jedi mastery, but since it seems that his Padawan does a lot of pulling his rear out of the flames, it looks like he has a lot of growth yet to do before I would call him technically "a master of anything". I am not trying to cut the guy down, but I don't see him as a true Jedi Master. I see him as being a Padawan, who became a Knight and is now training a Jedi Padawan into Knighthood. If he can accomplish this burdensome task, then perhaps Mastery is an option. If one makes the assumption that Kenobi was a Master at the end of Episode I because he assumed the training of Anakin, that sounds a little rediculous to me. Going from Padawan to Master in the blink of an eye? I don't think that it works that way, regardless of Prestige classes. From the looks of Episode II, it seems that it was as much of a learning process for Kenobi as it was for Anakin. Kenobi did not know what to expect because he was not a Master. You don't stop proving yourself after moving past the level of Padawan. Jedi Knight is where the trial actually begins. A newly knighted Jedi Knight does not become a Jedi Master by accepting a task, but IMO, as well as what the official site seems to be saying, is that the Knight becomes a Master as he or she grows in the Force and in wisdom. The Master-to-be learns to instruct, and prove that they are worthy of being a Master. When the Knight has grown, and the task of successfully training a Padawan to become a Knight is complete, then the Jedi really has something to be proud of and is now what I would call a Master.

Padawans must prove to be Knights. Knights must prove to be Masters. The Jedi Master Prestige class gives a Jedi an opportunity to prove to the other Jedi, especially the Masters, that they have what it takes to be a Master.......but yet it does not guarantee success. They must prove worthy by growing and teaching. Anything short of that kind of cheapens things, but then again, we all run our games differently :)

VixenofVenus
13 August 2003, 08:41 AM
I thought that I read somewhere that even if a Jedi hadn't completed the steps to becoming a Master, he/she was granted the title of Master if they were invited (and accepted) a position on the Jedi Council.

Krad-edis
13 August 2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by VixenofVenus
I thought that I read somewhere that even if a Jedi hadn't completed the steps to becoming a Master, he/she was granted the title of Master if they were invited (and accepted) a position on the Jedi Council.

I think I heard something like that too, but that whole idea is scary. I mean, the Council is supposed to be the authority for the Jedi. Why invite someone to be on the Council if the subject is not willing or unable to meet the requirements of Master? Can you imagine if doctors did this?

Nurse: "Sorry sir. Dr. Simmons is not in today to operate on your brain. Instead Mr. Rollings is here to perform the surgery."

Patient: "Is Mr. Rollings a surgeon?"

Nurse: "Oh no sir, he is just a member of the same country club as Dr. Simmons and most of the surgical staff likes Mr. Rollings."

Patient: "What are Mr. Rollings' qualifications if he is not a doctor?"

Mr. Rollings: "I am CPR certified."

VixenofVenus
13 August 2003, 09:17 AM
Well ... remember, there are people like Yoda and Mace leading the Coucil ... and they decide who fills the empty positions on the Council ... so there is some Quality Control going on there.

Besides, those who I know who have been invited to the Council who weren't "officially" Masters yet, were almost always highly qualified in some respect (and usually just hadn't jumped through the right hoops). Some had killed members of the Sith and were therefore more qualified than even those who were Masters on the Council ... others had trained a padawan up until they probably could have faced the trials, but their padawan had been killed or had died before they had faced the trials, etc.

Krad-edis
13 August 2003, 09:20 AM
Hmmmmm....well that makes a little more sense, as long as it is not over done. Perhaps that may be one of the reasons why Kenobi is held in such high regard: for snuffing Maul?

Faraer
13 August 2003, 09:29 AM
I'm pretty sure there's nothing in print about Jedi being raised to Jedi Master on joining the Council.

Church Climbin Ryan
13 August 2003, 09:48 AM
Well, what's in print doesn't really matter. All that matters is what's in the movie. If George Lucas was reading this he might say, "What the hell are they talking about? Ki-Adi Mundi not a Master? I never said that!"

Which is basically what it comes down to. I don't know where the comics and what have you get their ideas from, but we can all be reasonable sure that it wasn't from GL himself.

Also, be wary of the official site, because the majority of information there is Expanded Universe stuff, not just the films.

VixenofVenus
13 August 2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Faraer
I'm pretty sure there's nothing in print about Jedi being raised to Jedi Master on joining the Council.

I'm pretty positive that I've read it somewhere though. It was EU no doubt, but I definitely remember reading it.

And ... if you remember, Obi-Wan did NOT have to go through the trials BECAUSE of his triumph over Maul ... that was in the Ep1 Novelization. So that does go to show somewhat of the fact that the Jedi are not Buearocrats ... they do things in their own way, and that isn't always "by the book".

Faraer
13 August 2003, 10:56 AM
If that statement does exist somewhere, it's contradicted by Ki-Adi-Mundi not becoming a Master until some time after he joined the Council.

I don't think the trials of knighthood are necessarily formal at all, not an artificial situation. Probably the Council is informed first, but I suspect it's quite normal for a mission to turn out to involve a Padawan's final trial, rather than for it to be arranged in advance. The Rite of Passage arc of Republic is a good example.

Tramp
13 August 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Church Climbin Ryan
Well, what's in print doesn't really matter. All that matters is what's in the movie. If George Lucas was reading this he might say, "What the hell are they talking about? Ki-Adi Mundi not a Master? I never said that!"

Which is basically what it comes down to. I don't know where the comics and what have you get their ideas from, but we can all be reasonable sure that it wasn't from GL himself.

Also, be wary of the official site, because the majority of information there is Expanded Universe stuff, not just the films.

Actually, what's in print does matter and is accepted as Canon by LFL, as long as it's not marked Infinities , but that's besides the point. Ki-Adi Mundi had never taken on an apprentice when he was invited to sit on the council. At the end of the comic book series Outlander, he took on an apprentice by the name of Ashared Hett, son of Jedi Shared Hett, who had become the war-leader of a tribe of Tuskens (in effect channeling the tribe's aggressions against the proper targets without allowing them to cause too much undue collateral damage), and fathered a son (the afore mentioned Ashared) by one. Shared Hett trained his son as his Padawan until he was killed by Aurra Sing during the series. It was at this point that Ki-Adi Mundi took over Ashared's training.

Church Climbin Ryan
13 August 2003, 04:06 PM
I'm afraid you're incorrect. "Canon" refers to the films and ONLY the films. As cool as that series was (I flipped through it once at Barnes & Noble), it never happened, effectively rendering it nothing more than a lie.

Rouge8
13 August 2003, 04:09 PM
Actually, the EU is canon. Must I quote it?
Read Tramp's signature.

Faraer
13 August 2003, 05:04 PM
The SW galaxy in George Lucas's mind and that depicted in the EU aren't identical. In one the Sith originate 2000 BBY; in the other those aren't the original Sith. In one Boba Fett dies in the sarlacc pit; in the other he escapes. Etc. As always, the notion of 'canon' is PRACTICAL: the films have to match the other films; the EU, managed by Lucas Licensing, has to match the films and the rest of the EU. Lucasfilm employees have used different terms to describe these two levels -- sometimes 'canon' and 'absolute canon' (e.g. Steve Sansweet), sometimes 'continuity' and 'canon' (e.g. Haden Blackman). Sue Rostoni's quoted statement doesn't mean 'the movies and the EU are equivalent', it means the 'bible' which Lucas Licensing maintains includes everything from the EU, but not Infinities.

Those are facts, but they're subject to various value judgements. Person X loves the EU and doesn't care about when it deviates from SW as seen by Lucas. Person Y loves the movies and ignores the EU. These people don't have to shout 'You're wrong' at each other. For the purpose of these boards, as long as we're clear when necessary about what comes from the films and what comes from licensed sources, we can happily discuss stuff even when we value it differently.

Reverend Strone
13 August 2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Faraer
...Person X loves the EU and doesn't care about when it deviates from SW as seen by Lucas. Person Y loves the movies and ignores the EU. These people don't have to shout 'You're wrong' at each other. For the purpose of these boards, as long as we're clear when necessary about what comes from the films and what comes from licensed sources, we can happily discuss stuff even when we value it differently.

Faraer is correct. I would ask that everyone here please abide by that sentiment, just as you usually do. The canon arguement is an old story here, but one that can be discussed with civility and politeness, even if folks disagree. Please don't make me come out with a big ole smackin' Moderator stick.

Ardent
13 August 2003, 07:04 PM
It's actually a very straight issue. Your personal opinion on what is and isn't canon is perfectly valid...for you. As far as general consumption goes, what Sue Rostoni said goes. Something to keep in mind. If you insist on sticking to your view on canon, then preface it so nobody, particularly persons who aren't quite as clear on the official stance on Star Wars canon, gets confused.

The 'two levels' are a matter of necessity as George Lucas redefines his vision. When Episode III is released and some time has passed, it'll settle and LFL can return to their singular level of canon.

Church Climbin Ryan
13 August 2003, 10:06 PM
...so basically, within the EU, there are varying levels of BS?

Jim Williams
14 August 2003, 05:28 AM
Exactly.

When you're sitting in the theatre jubilantly waiting for curtain-rise on EpIII, be sure to sit on the outer seat of your group of friends. then turn to the complete stranger next to you (since it will be jampacked) and say, "Isn't it cool that Ki-Adi-Mundi's padawan was a Tusken Raider?"

The responses will vary.

"Huh?" They just like the movies

"Who's Ki-Adi-Mundi?" This person was dragged to see Star Wars by someone and is in need of help.

"Gesundheit." Speak louder to overcome the din.

"I didn't know that." Proceed with info exchange.

"Dude, that's crazy. Tuskens are murdering savages. They killed Ani's mother." This person knows enough to get themselves in trouble.

"Dude, that's crazy. Tuskens are murdering savages. They killed Ani's mother. Although Palpatine arranged her getting nabbed. He has lots of connections." This person has a problem with conspiracy theories that probably carries over into the real world. Switch seats with a friend.

I realize now that Jedi Masters aren't necessarily Masters because they have the PrC. IMO they have just begun to more deeply understand the Force.

Errin Orwain
14 August 2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Church Climbin Ryan
It's also pretty clear that despite having a Padawan, Obi-Wan is not considered a Jedi Master. Notice that when he's speaking directly to Mace Windu or Yoda, he refers to them as "Master" whearas they call him Obi-Wan. There is one exception, when Yoda and Obi-Wan are with the younglings, and Yoda refers to Obi-Wan as "Master Kenobi" to the Younglings, but probably only to encourage them to call Obi-Wan "Master Kenobi".

And if you recall even Master Qui-Gon called Yoda and Mace Master, thry are on the councel after all, to not call them master would be the height of arrogance. To argue that Obi-Wan is not a Master because he showed respect to Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Councel is not at all logical.

Codym
14 August 2003, 11:07 AM
Errin, you have misread his post. Church Climbin Ryan
is pointing out that Mace and Yoda refer to Obi-Wan by his first name and first name only, not as Master Obi-Wan, as evidence of his being a knight and not a master, not Obi-Wan calling them Master. I cannot recall if he is correct on these points, I don't have time to watch AOTC at the moment, but it makes a certain sense.

Tramp
14 August 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Church Climbin Ryan
...so basically, within the EU, there are varying levels of BS?

No. Within Star Wars Canon, there are varying levels between the movies and EU with the movies taking priority over the EU when the two directly conflict.

Church Climbin Ryan
14 August 2003, 10:58 PM
Hmm... well, that makes sense then. Thanks Tramp.

And Jim, good post... that was funny.

Errin: Yeah, I was pointing out how Mace and Yoda referred to Obi-Wan more so than what he called them. Also, I believe that in Episode One, Yoda calls Qui-Gon, "Master Qui-Gon".

Thanks, Codym. A certain sense is better than nothing!

I'm sorry if I'm coming off vehemently EU. I'm really not. It just irks me when you're trying to have a discussion in which only the movies are really pertinent, and people keep bringing up things that basically never happened.

Some of the EU comis and stuff are cool, and usually the books are entertaining because they're the next best thing to a Star Wars movie.

That "Hunt for Aurra Sing" comic that was mentioned earlier was really pretty cool, from what i remember of it. The character design was sweet, as was the art in general. To be honest I didn't actually read it, but it looked cool. But some of the stuff that comes up is really lame... but the same can be said for the films. Jar Jar, anyone?

Tramp
15 August 2003, 06:50 AM
I think the thing you fail to realize though, is that the movies aren't the only thing pertinent to this discussion. You have to understand, that according to Lucasfilm Licensing, The events in the EU happened. They're as much a part of Star Wars as the movies. It's only where the two directly conflict , which is not often or involving major plot elements. that the movies supercede the EU. And yes, alot of what makes it into the EU passes before George's desk and gets looked over directly by him, Examples include Dark Empire , Tales of the Jedi , and NJO . All of these had his personal approval and input. So, because this discussion is about what has happened to the various members of the Jedi Council, and their rank, the EU is just as relevant as the movies.

Errin Orwain
15 August 2003, 08:44 AM
One must also consider that without the training of Obi-Wan luke would not have survived long enough to become a jedi. It was the clear thinking & personal sacrifice of Kenobi that allowed luke & company to escape the death star in the first place. Without Obi-Wan the jedi order would have died with Yoda. Knowing this I do not see how it could be said that Obi-Wan Kenobi was not a Jedi Master.

Krad-edis
15 August 2003, 09:33 AM
One must also consider that without the training of Obi-Wan luke would not have survived long enough to become a jedi. It was the clear thinking & personal sacrifice of Kenobi that allowed luke & company to escape the death star in the first place. Without Obi-Wan the jedi order would have died with Yoda. Knowing this I do not see how it could be said that Obi-Wan Kenobi was not a Jedi Master.

Who says he had to be a Master in order to do all of those things?
Remember that he did not train Luke to Knighthood. He was a very established Knight, who said that he had once been a Jedi Knight when delving into his background with Luke. He never claimed to have been a Master, in fact the first time we heard the term "Jedi Master" was when he told Luke about Yoda. Did he have mastery over the Force comparable to a Jedi Master? By this time, I would say yes. Was he ever initiated into the fray of Jedi Masterhood by the other Jedi? It doesn't look that way. Even if he did train Anakin to knighthood (I think he refers to Vader as a young Jedi Knight), he failed to do a good job in ensuring the young man did not fall to the dark side. I think it would be appropriate to call him a Jedi Knight.....or a failed Jedi Master if you absolutely have to call him a Master. Even with all of his wisdom and skills, he had never successfully trained a full fledged Jedi Knight worthy of the Code and Order, so he I guess you could consider him an image of his work. He trained a Jedi Knight into a Sith Lord.....not the best job in the world. I heard it mentioned that Lucas said Kenobi will have a definite impact on Anakin's fall. I like Kenobi. He was a good guy, but ultimately he was marred with guilt and failure.

Influential Jedi and very important to the story? YES!......but still very much a Knight.

Dr_Worm
15 August 2003, 01:29 PM
I think the core of this disgreement lays in the definition of "Master". So where you land depends on what you think the word means in regards to Star Wars:

Master: One who has achieved a certain rank within the order, thus granting him Master PrC.

Master: A relative term for a teacher used by a padawn and peers that are offering that teacher some respect.

Master: A term used by others as a respectfull term that does not nessisarly relresent a level of status within the Jedi.

For example I a term of repect for a young man in English days of old was often Master (sometimes "young master"). It would be used to preface a name: "Master Gabriel your supper is ready". At the same time in that culture there were Masters of a craft, such as Coopering (making barels) who had earned the rank of Master through years of apprenticeship and and a high level of abbility. Lastly you have students in schools who might me required to refer to their teachers as Master; regardless of rank or abbility.

So I think that what we have to look at is who is calling Obiwan a Master and why. There is just more than one way to look at it.


P.S. I have deliberaltely left off the use of Master in a slavery or servitude context as it is not really relavent to the discussion.

Faraer
15 August 2003, 02:35 PM
Yes, the status of Jedi Master, being a master to a Padawan apprentice, and being referred to by honorifics including the word 'Master' are all different. Ultimately Lucasfilm is clear that Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't given the rank of Jedi Master, and there's no evidence that indicates otherwise.

BrianDavion
15 August 2003, 04:01 PM
this may be a minor point but correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Obi-wan Kenobi reffered to as Master Kenobi, while Qui-Gon Jinn was reffered to as Master Qui-Gon. this could have an impact what type of jedi master so to speak he is

Lucas Carr
15 August 2003, 04:54 PM
I saw AotC yesterday and I'm sure Kenobi was called Master Obi-Wan, but I was kind of tired when I saw it so, I might remember incorrectly.

BrianDavion
15 August 2003, 05:21 PM
hmm true I think yoda once reffered to him as master obi-wan..

Krad-edis
16 August 2003, 05:12 AM
I have come to take it that any Knight with an apprentice is addressed as "Master", because after all, they do have have a Master's responsibility.......but are still not Jedi Masters. I mean, look at what happened at the end of Episode I...Kenobi's experience and wisdom are considerably higher in Episode II, but his job status is pretty much the same. He is in charge of Anakin at the end of Episode I as he is in Episode II. He is a Knight with training responsibility ever since becoming a Knight, but I have been thoroughly convinced from Kenobi referring to himself as a Knight, and I also remember Dooku asking why a "Jedi Knight" was out his way, that the guy in fact is still a Knight. "Master" Kenobi seems to be in reference to his acceptance of responsibility for Anakin (definitely a first step to becoming a Jedi Master), but not in reference to his status amongst Jedi Masters as being a "Master" of the Force....because quite frankly, and again, not to knock on Kenobi too much, Dooku certainly gave him a few lumps to grow on.

Is Kenobi a Master in Episode IV? Well, that depends on how you wish to look at it. He certainly has the wisdom and the skills to contend with many Jedi Masters in their prime, but I think if any one of us were to ask Ben Kenobi personally (I know this sounds out there), he would probably say no. IMHO, the guy feels so bad about what he admits later to Luke about him thinking he could train Anakin better than Yoda, and how he screwed things up, that he would never wish to tarnish the title of "Jedi Master" with his record. I guess it is a matter of opinion in the end, but I have more often seen him referred to as Knight instead of Master. Those who are undecided can flip a credit :)

Church Climbin Ryan
16 August 2003, 09:43 AM
I'm not even sure what this discussion is about anymore lol.

I'm still disagreeing on this EU thing, but I'm just going to drop it because it's pretty obvious neither one of us will bend, regardless of how many people we quote.

Yoda DOES refer to Obi-Wan as "Master Obi-Wan" but to the younglings, not to Obi-Wan himself, which suggests that he's doing so to encourage the children to refer to Obi-Wan as "Master", because he's a full knight, whereas they aren't even padawans yet.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 02:49 PM
You must remember that Jedi Archivist Jocasta Nu [who was a member of the Jedi Council for ten years] also calls Obi-Wan "Master Kenobi" when there was no one else around. I doubt she would do so if he were not a Jedi Master himself.

Jim Williams
16 August 2003, 03:05 PM
Maybe because she knew he could clean up the floor with her?

Wait...

Wrong Force tradition.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 03:12 PM
He probibly could at that, but I don't think that's why she calls him Master Kenobi.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 04:53 PM
Oh and by the way, at the end of AotC there is the following exchange with only Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan in the room:

Kenobi: "I have to admit, without the clones it would not have been a
victory."
Windu: (nods his head)
Yoda: "Victory... victory you say...Master Kenobi, no victory begun the clone wars has"


Why would Yoda call him Master Kenbi with only the three of them there. No students, no one else, Just three Jedi Masters.

Ardent
16 August 2003, 07:45 PM
Usually, the honorific title of Master is bestowed on Jedi for any of a few reasons. Unless the prequel EU stuff has revealed otherwise, I'm pretty sure Mace Windu is a Master because of his martial skill, whereas Yoda is a Master because of his ability as an instructor. Jorus C'baoth is a Master because of his grasp of the Force, while one could argue that Obi-Wan is a Master because of his talent for investigation.

However, Obi-Wan is training a Padawan Learner, which would mean his Padawan would refer to him with the honorific as a sign of respect. So perhaps it's merely an issue of the extension of respect.

It's key to remember that most of the Republic's citizens will refer to a Jedi as "Master Jedi." The key differentiation comes when they call someone a "Jedi Master."

It really is difficult to say, and Flannelman isn't voicing his opinion on the issue as yet. I'd be curious to hear what GL's take on the matter is.

Faraer
16 August 2003, 09:00 PM
By now, Lucasfilm is well used to when to hedge, and when to state things without fear of contradiction. There's no way starwars.com (http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020606.html) (probably Pablo Hidalgo or Paul Ens) would give such information about a major movie character if there was any chance of Lucas saying otherwise later. (I'd guess there's an even chance that information is directly from him anyway.)

Mace is as much a diplomat as a fighter, and lightsaber prowess alone wouldn't make him a Jedi Master, let alone a Council member (let alone at the very young age he joins it in the EU). In the Jedi philosophy, wisdom and understanding of the Force are inextricable; there aren't any Jedi Masters who are foolish, weak in the Force, or easy to beat in a fight.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Faraer
In the Jedi philosophy, wisdom and understanding of the Force are inextricable; there aren't any Jedi Masters who are foolish, weak in the Force, or easy to beat in a fight.

You are correct about this. I would also be inclined to believe that Obi-Wan was not a fool; weak in the force; and Jengo would probibly agree he is pretty tough in a fight.

Church Climbin Ryan
16 August 2003, 10:45 PM
Why would Yoda call him Master Kenbi with only the three of them there. No students, no one else, Just three Jedi Masters.

I used to study Tae Kwon Do. Every now and again my Master would call me "Mr. Ryan" or "Mr. Piscitelli". It definitely wasn't because he was trying to say that I was in any way equal to him. It's just another way of badgering a student really.

As far as Jocasta Nu... If you ask me, she was never a Council member, and probably isn't a Master. Notice they call her "Madam Jocasta Nu", NOT "Master". Therefore, she's probably just a stuffy old Knight who's good with books.

Errin Orwain
17 August 2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Church Climbin Ryan


I used to study Tae Kwon Do. Every now and again my Master would call me "Mr. Ryan" or "Mr. Piscitelli". It definitely wasn't because he was trying to say that I was in any way equal to him. It's just another way of badgering a student really.

As far as Jocasta Nu... If you ask me, she was never a Council member, and probably isn't a Master. Notice they call her "Madam Jocasta Nu", NOT "Master". Therefore, she's probably just a stuffy old Knight who's good with books.

So I guess the bio on Jocasta Nu on the official Star Wars site [StarWars.Com], approved by Lucas, is wrong in stating that Jocasta Nu is the Head Archivest and was a member of the Jedi Coucel for ten years? And by the way "Madam" is the femine form of "Master" in the English speaking world. And we are discuccing the Star Wars EU and movies, not Martial Arts instruction techniques [in which the term "Mister" is not an honor, much like a Navy Captain caling a junior officer "Mister Robinson" instead of "Ensign Robinson"].

Krad-edis
18 August 2003, 04:41 AM
Has anyone ever seen anything in writing that Kenobi is a Master?

Obi-wan Kenobi
Type: Jedi Knight
page 18 of Star Wars Trilogy Sourcebook, Special Edition

Yoda
Type: Jedi Master
page 34 of Star Wars Trilogy Sourcebook, Special Edition

Obi-wan Kenobi
One of the most prominent Jedi Knights of the Old Republic was also one of the last survivors of the Clone Wars......
page 91 of Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Characters

Dooku asks Kenobi why a "Jedi Knight" is out on Geonosis.

Kenobi refers to himself as being a Jedi Knight in Episode IV.

I have seen zero references of Kenobi being a Jedi Master for D20 as well. Here is something interesting:

"In the darkest days of the Empire, nearly all the Jedi Masters were hunted down and wiped out. However, on the backwater planet of Dagobah, a 900-year old Jedi Master named Yoda managed to survive and train the first of a new generation of Jedi, Luke Skywalker. Luke went on to form the Jedi academy to train a new generation of Jedi in the ways of the Force."

page 276 of the RCR.

Maybe the reason why they excluded Kenobi in the mentioning of what happened to the Jedi Masters is because he NEVER was one?

I have heard Kenobi being referenced as "Master", but not Jedi Master by the following characters:

Yoda- explained below
Anakin- to address his teacher
Dooku- to mock him (IMHO)
not sure about Mace

I really think that "Master" is a term of respect. Respect amongst Jedi seems to flow from the smallest and youngest Padawan all the way up to Yoda. Being Jedi Master Kenobi and Master Kenobi seem to be two different things. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Mace and Yoda are Jedi Masters, but there still are concerns about whether Kenobi is. West End games seemed to think he was a Knight, as well as the official site, which refers to him as a dedicated and legendary Jedi Knight. Anyone can check that out here (http://starwars.com/databank/character/obiwankenobi/index.html)

One may be a Master to his student, but just because one has a pupil, it does not make them a Jedi Master. Regardless of prestige classes. Yoda probably knows this and would not refer to Kenobi as "idiot", "hey you", or "Jedi Kenobi", but instead he would impress upon the young and reckless Anakin that Kenobi is in charge, and also to give his respect to an accomplished Jedi Knight. As I see Kenobi, he is Knight. I don't seem to be alone in the matter.

Jim Williams
18 August 2003, 05:53 AM
You're right IMO Krad-edis.

In the movies, all of the dialogue is probably used to convey respect (except for Dooku).

I'm beginning to realize there is Jedi Master, Master-level feats in d20, and then there is the Jedi Master PrC in d20. Heck, I'm even beginning to think that a Jedi PC who qualifies for Master feats (at 11th level) or the JM PrC w/o a padawan (14th level) is just taking the first steps to being a Jedi Master...

Ardent
18 August 2003, 06:08 AM
But it still raises the question of where the threshold lies. Particularly for the Jedi Master who never trains a Padawan Learner.

Most of the "Master Jedi" and "Master Kenobi" being tossed around definitely seemed like a matter of respect, but it's hard to say. But then that raises the question of why Obi-Wan is General Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda is simply "Master Yoda."

No disrespect to GL, but I think his inadequacies as a writer are starting to show through in major ways. He can barely keep his own continuity together.

Jim Williams
18 August 2003, 06:29 AM
Interesting point Ardent

Maybe we'll see Yoda as a general in EpIII or (more likely IMO) maybe it is just that he never commanded troops in the field after the BoG.

If Yoda was a general in the Clone Wars, I can buy that we would never have known it because no character in the movies would have bothered to refer to him as a General, but Bail would refer to Obi-Wan as General. Another reason Bail would refer to him as General would be to conceal his status as a Jedi.

Or GL is really wishing he had never bothered to introduce the Jedi General concept...who knows?


But it still raises the question of where the threshold lies.
I think it's extremely subjective...

Krad-edis
18 August 2003, 08:26 AM
I think the threshold lies with the character's maturity and wisdom, but in game terms, I think in the OCR the level 13 Jedi (not a level 13 character, but one with 13 levels of a Jedi class) becoming a Master sounds as if it may be acceptable (the Jedi in question had better do something really spectacular). If a character has 13 levels of Jedi classes, they should be pretty accustomed to the Jedi Order regardless of training students, and I may see the Council take the Jedi into consideration. On page 276, it says that "a Jedi usually doesn't become a Jedi Master until he trains a student to completion." This "usually" leaves this rule, which IMHO is a good one, open to debate. It seems that most have to train a student, but then again, if the Jedi Knight in question is a Council favorite, they may sidestep him or her. I don't like the sound of it, but then again, we all have our opinions and ways of doing things. Players in my campaigns, if they wish to become Jedi Masters will be seeking apprentices sometime during Knighthood.

Tramp
18 August 2003, 12:09 PM
The OCRB has Obi-Wan "Ben" Knenobi as a 15th level Jedi Guardian with the Medi Master SQ. The RCRB has Obi-Wan listed as Jed Guardian 7/ Jedi Master 2/ Jedi investigator 1 during AotC, and Jedi Guardian 7/Jedi Master 5/ Jedi Investigator 3 by ANH. As far as game terms goes, Obi-wan is a Jedi Master, and at least had the honorific title of Jedi Master in the movies.

Errin Orwain
18 August 2003, 06:53 PM
And also I noticed that nobody is addressing my point that Yoda refers to Obi-Wan as "Master Kenobi" in the end of EP II with Mace Windu being the only other person in the room. Yoda was not trying to set an example for younger students [they wearn't there], and it was a formal discution on a topic that Yoda strongly disaggreed with Kenobi on, so Yoda kept the way he addressed Kenobi formal, not calling him Obi-Wan as he did earlier in the movie when he was reassuring him [talking to him like a friend]. Why would Yoda call him "Master Kenobi" in a formall, private conversation like that if he isn't a master.

Ardent
18 August 2003, 09:14 PM
It's also interesting to note that Obi-wan is always the one who refers to himself as a Jedi Knight, with the exception of Count Dooku when he's taunting Obi-wan. I think perhaps only Obi-wan views himself as a failure (as of ANH), and in the EU he's almost always regarded as a Jedi Master post-humously (whether or not he earned the title post-humuously is another question entirely).

I'd say it's a meritous achievement title, rather than a standardized rank. There's barely a clear definition of what makes a Jedi Knight...the trial can be anything from a trade dispute to a planetary assault from what we've seen. It merely has to test the Jedi's ability to remain calm and work to find a resolution to a situation. Even if it does involve "aggressive negotiations." Why should a Jedi Master's trial be any different? Obi-wan was a tried and tested investigator by the time of Episode II. Achieved beyond all hope of measurement by his contemporaries. The true effects of what Obi-wan accomplished continue to ripple well into the NJO. That's a statement. A really big, bold and powerful statement about just what sort of person, what caliber of Jedi Knight, Obi-wan Kenobi was. Regardless of what George Lucas may or may not want people to perceive, Obi-wan is certainly deserving of the title Jedi Master.

Lucas Carr
19 August 2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
No disrespect to GL, but I think his inadequacies as a writer are starting to show through in major ways. He can barely keep his own continuity together.

I disagree with you. As far as I'm concerned we don't know the whole truth yet. If we had known the whole truth we would understand that the continuity does work.



Originally posted by Krad-edis
On page 276, it says that "a Jedi usually doesn't become a Jedi Master until he trains a student to completion." This "usually" leaves this rule, which IMHO is a good one, open to debate. It seems that most have to train a student, but then again, if the Jedi Knight in question is a Council favorite, they may sidestep him or her. I don't like the sound of it, but then again, we all have our opinions and ways of doing things. Players in my campaigns, if they wish to become Jedi Masters will be seeking apprentices sometime during Knighthood.

From my point of view the "usually" doesn't mean that most Jedi have to train a student to become a master, it only says that most of those that reach the level of Jedi Master have taught a Padawan to completion.

Krad-edis
19 August 2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain
Sorry, but I would have to say that the Official site is mistaken. I mean I can understand a Padawan calling their teacher Master, but when the likes of Mace Windu, Count Dooku, and Yoda call you Master Kenobi, then a Master you must be.


Originally posted by Errin Orwain
So I guess the bio on Jocasta Nu on the official Star Wars site [StarWars.Com], approved by Lucas, is wrong in stating that Jocasta Nu is the Head Archivest and was a member of the Jedi Coucel for ten years? And by the way "Madam" is the femine form of "Master" in the English speaking world. And we are discuccing the Star Wars EU and movies, not Martial Arts instruction techniques [in which the term "Mister" is not an honor, much like a Navy Captain caling a junior officer "Mister Robinson" instead of "Ensign Robinson"].[/B]

Well, Errin, if you can discredit the official site and say it is wrong, then I guess just about anyone else can too. :)

As far as madam being the feminine form of master, I have most often heard it being "Mistress". Listen to 3PO.....Master Luke, Mistress Leia. Madam is for a repected lady, or when talking to a female owner of a brothel. I would assume that Kenobi was paying respects to an older Jedi (because I would be very afraid if Jocasta Nu was the other Madam), not necessarily because she held any weight....she certainly was not as helpful as the youngling who revealed everything. :)

In any case, we probably will never know exactly what is up with Kenobi until George settles it in the next movie. I really hope that Kenobi gets his due and is referred to as a "Jedi Master", but Episode IV's line of "I was once a Jedi Knight" is very disturbing. It was not "I am a Jedi Master", or "I am a Jedi Knight".....it sounded very bad with the "I was once"......I really am looking forward to the next movie.

Krad-edis
19 August 2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Lucas Carr
From my point of view the "usually" doesn't mean that most Jedi have to train a student to become a master, it only says that most of those that reach the level of Jedi Master have taught a Padawan to completion.

As to what you metion about the teaching of Padawans, well, I suppose it could be interpreted that way, however it also says on page 276 that "they use their wisdom and influence to instruct others in the ways of the Force". A Jedi does not just become a Jedi Master and all of a sudden know everything about instructing. They will learn that earlier on as a Jedi Knight in my games, that is for sure. After all, most professors have to student teach at one point or another, and I certainly would not have it any other way in my games. How will they know that instructing others in the Force is something that they are compitent at unless they have tried it?

Lucas Carr
19 August 2003, 09:59 AM
Those are good points Krad-edis. Maybe it's a bit of both.

Errin Orwain
19 August 2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
It's also interesting to note that Obi-wan is always the one who refers to himself as a Jedi Knight, with the exception of Count Dooku when he's taunting Obi-wan. Obi-wan is certainly deserving of the title Jedi Master.

I would agree.

Errin Orwain
15 September 2003, 02:34 PM
If you check the FAQ PDF at the Wizards of the Coast site on page 8 of 61, you will find a question asking why Jedi Master is a PrC in the RCR. The Answer was that Lucas Licensing told the makers of the game that having a padawan makes you a Jedi Master, Obi-Wan being called Master Kenobi was not just out of respect. That is what Lucas Licensing wanted the RCR to establish this fact. Don't believe it, Check the FAQ. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Jedi Master. End of Story.

Krad-edis
15 September 2003, 04:11 PM
Well, if that is the case, no wonder the Jedi Order failed. Congratulations Padawan....you have now reached the level of Jedi Knight.....and since you now have Anakin to take care of, you are now a Jedi Master.

What a cop out.

Codym
15 September 2003, 11:58 PM
Well, I just checked the Offical site, and it still says that Obi-Wan is not a Jedi Master. Since the Offical site overrides any conflicting data on the Wizards site, I guess Obi-Wan is still only a Jedi Knight.

The story never ends.

Ardent
16 September 2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Codym
Well, I just checked the Offical site, and it still says that Obi-Wan is not a Jedi Master. Since the Offical site overrides any conflicting data on the Wizards site, I guess Obi-Wan is still only a Jedi Knight.

The story never ends.

Starwars.com is ultimately responsible to LFL in terms of what can and can't be added to the database. It's certainly not "right from the horse's mouth" so to speak. I'd shift my argument from whether or not he was one to when he should be considered one.

Errin Orwain
16 September 2003, 06:40 PM
Indeed. I would contend that Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master. If you are trusted by the Jedi Councel to train a Padawan [they can always say you are not ready to train a jedi yet], then you like Obi-Wan are a Jedi Master should you accept the burden, that is how LFL wants the system to work, that is the way it is. If Krad-edis and Codym want to blindly accept portins of bios that have not been updated in some time, I can't help that. However by stating in the FAQ section of the Wizards of the Coast site that LFL wanted the Jedi Master PrC to represent the fact that any charicter or NPC becomes a Jedi Master when they are trusted with a padawan then it must be true, because I find it hard to believe that they would put it in the FAQ [and risk a lawsuit if it isn't true] otherwise. Believe what you want, I know the truth.

Krad-edis
17 September 2003, 04:01 AM
Episode I
Obi-wan was confirmed the level of what? JEDI KNIGHT.
He was granted the permission to train Anakin when? UPON 7th LEVEL Was he a Jedi Master? HELL NO
Was he a Knight training a Padawan? YES

He was trusted as a Jedi Knight to teach Anakin. The Jedi Master Prestige class is a step not a title until the Jedi has proven himself worthy of teaching, and teaching the Padawan correctly throughout his or her training. Now if you think I am blind, go right ahead. I think you are blind to believe that the transition period from Padawan to Master can take place in two levels. That is utterly obsurd to believe.

JG or JC 6 to JG or JC 7 to JC or JG 7/ JM1 is fine to believe in concern to stats, but let us not believe that one can actually become a wise Jedi Master, a full Jedi Master, in the time that it takes a character to move two levels. If that is the way that is meant to be, I think that is really poor handling of how Jedi advance. I don't know about the rest of you, but there should be some standards. There are 6 levels of Padawan, and as Orwain believes it is possible, for one level of Knight (the small leap of transition) and from level eight on, your character is a Jedi Master as long as he is training a Padawan. How about having some decent transition time? 6 levels of Padawan are there, why not have 6 levels of Jedi Knight like in the OCR. The Knight can still take the levels of Jedi Master, but there has to be a proving ground, and time for the character to develop himself, gain wisdom, and train a new Jedi (unless one still believes that all of this can be done from level 6 to 8?) This provides a more holistic version of a Jedi Master. If the tenth level Obi-wan was a Jedi Master (even though every single written source I have seen, and there are many, which call him a Jedi Knight, even the character himself says so), he certainly is a poor excuse for one. He had his ass kicked in just about every challenge he came across during Episode II, and he did not have the experience that a Jedi Master should have had. It is pretty apparent that it was the case when his apprentice would be the one to bail him out (I can think of numerous references). Now once he crossed the threshold of level 13 and was the level 15 character that he was in Ep IV, he was recognizably worthy of being a Jedi Master.

Jedi Master is not about being worthy of training students, because Knights train students, and are worthy of doing so. Jedi Master is achieved through trial and error of learning, training others, and through a time of decent transition. Anything less is destroying the standard, for there were very few Jedi Masters.

Codym
17 September 2003, 04:07 AM
You do not know the truth, you merely hold an opinion.

You state one source which says one thing, I have stated a source that says another. Mine is closer to the main source of all information Star Wars, and to my logic, sounds more likely. If you believe simply taking on an apprentice makes you a master, that is your choice. However, I feel this version makes the title of Master meaningless, which it is not in the movies.

In regards to Errin's claims that the offical site is outdated, I offer up this: Just recently in a Jedi Counciling, JD Wiker stated that a lightsaber gives of a 2m radius of light, yet in Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and Attack Of The Clones, we see this is not true, as the light given off is far less than even a meter. Because the Wizards site is "more up to date" mean that the movies are wrong?

On the offical site, someone asked is Obi-Wan a Jedi Master, and the answer, post Attack of the Clones, was given. I doubt they simply made this up on the spot. Perhaps it has not been updated because there is no reason to update it?

As to the question on if Obi-Wan should have been concidered the equal of a Master, my answer would by A New Hope yes, but in AOTC, certainly not. The movie is quite clear in showing how bad a teacher Obi-Wan is in his quickness to blame his student, rather than questioning his own teaching skills. Though he occassionly shines, it is made clear that he is mostly at a loss on how to handle Anakin. This alone shows he has a lot to learn.

I hope this sums up my opinion, because quite frankly, I've been repeating myself far too much on this thread all ready.

Ardent
17 September 2003, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Codym
You do not know the truth, you merely hold an opinion.

Master Obi-Wan has an answer for that: "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."


You state one source which says one thing, I have stated a source that says another. Mine is closer to the main source of all information Star Wars, and to my logic, sounds more likely. If you believe simply taking on an apprentice makes you a master, that is your choice. However, I feel this version makes the title of Master meaningless, which it is not in the movies.

I actually never stated a source (at least, not recently in terms of time), but what makes you feel yours is closer? As you say: you do not know the truth, you merely hold an opinion.


In regards to Errin's claims that the offical site is outdated, I offer up this: Just recently in a Jedi Counciling, JD Wiker stated that a lightsaber gives of a 2m radius of light, yet in Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and Attack Of The Clones, we see this is not true, as the light given off is far less than even a meter. Because the Wizards site is "more up to date" mean that the movies are wrong?

Until George Lucas says otherwise, really. Besides, you can't take an accurate measurement of anything in Star Wars considering the wear and tear the original film went through before it was "digitally restored." My own copies have a spectacular navy blue Darth Vader.


On the offical site, someone asked is Obi-Wan a Jedi Master, and the answer, post Attack of the Clones, was given. I doubt they simply made this up on the spot. Perhaps it has not been updated because there is no reason to update it?

According to LFL, no one official source is "more" official than another with the exception of George Lucas. But that's an issue of straight from the horse's mouth, and I don't think we'll be getting any of that.


As to the question on if Obi-Wan should have been concidered the equal of a Master, my answer would by A New Hope yes, but in AOTC, certainly not. The movie is quite clear in showing how bad a teacher Obi-Wan is in his quickness to blame his student, rather than questioning his own teaching skills. Though he occassionly shines, it is made clear that he is mostly at a loss on how to handle Anakin. This alone shows he has a lot to learn.

Anyone who can teach someone anything and claim to have gained nothing for themselves is lying. Why differentiate in time when the learning is occuring? No, I feel your logic is flawed here. You are, or you are not. You don't take on a Padawan and later become a Jedi master.


I hope this sums up my opinion, because quite frankly, I've been repeating myself far too much on this thread all ready.

If you're repeating yourself, you can't be teaching because you're not learning.

Grimace
17 September 2003, 07:41 AM
Come on, guys, you're all beating a dead horse here. Let's just assume that some people think one way and other's think differently. Let's also assume that some people view one source differently as another.

So can we please drop the whole topic of "whose source is more accurate" and "who really knows what". Please?

Ronen Tal-Ravis
17 September 2003, 07:54 AM
OK, to settle things: Obi-Wan is a Jedi Knight, no Jedi Master. Not mentioning EP II, there is no source concerning the original Trilogy which states that Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master. Every source that I know, like e.g. Technical Journal, even the old WEG SWRPG books state him to be a Knight. The movie, especially EP IV states cleary that he is a knight. He himself says he is a Jedi Knight, as does Vader.
Only because the Core Rules give him the PrC of Jedi Master, certainly does not make him one. Even in that description can be found that usually one has to have completed the training of a student - which Obi-Wan never does. And for making Anakin Darth Vader I would not promote him to the rank of Master.
However when EP II came out I was confused as well. Why do the call him Master Jedi? But when Anakin was called that way too it became clear. It was simply a title, the same way C3PO calles Luke "Master Luke" in EP IV - you do not think Luke is a Jedi Master, do you ? ;) The queen could easily have said Master Anakin, if she had known his actual name.
It was clear that the Kaminoians called him Master, because Obi-Wan wanted them to think he was send by the Council.
When the question was asked the Jedi Council the answer was the following:

"The term "Master" is occasionally used as an honorific to a teaching Knight -- especially by non-Jedi -- even if he has not yet achieved the status of Jedi Master. As of the start of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi had not yet achieved the formal rank of Jedi Master."

or read it here:
http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020606.html


Concerning Obi-Wans skills, he is actually not that good. When Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan in EP I, he was already 24 years old. But thanks to EPII Anakin complaining about Obi-Wan we know that usually you become Knight when around 20 years, so Obi-Wan was actually late. And it was him who failed in teaching Anakin.
Additionally his bio clearly says that he is a Jedi Knight, no Master. And I do not see why you think it was not updated? The EP II content is in that entry as well.

Concluding: Obi-Wan was never mentioned to be a Jedi Master in the original trilogy or its companion sources. The official site states at two different points that Obi-Wan is a Jedi-Knight and the referring to Master is just a way to honor the status of being a Jedi, independently of the actual rank.
But if you do not trust the offical site, then I do not see why one should continue this discussion as any source that differs from the official site cannot be right. That would be a contradiction.

Errin Orwain
17 September 2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
OK, to settle things: Obi-Wan is a Jedi Knight, no Jedi Master. However when EP II came out I was confused as well. Why do the call him Master Jedi?

"The term "Master" is occasionally used as an honorific to a teaching Knight -- especially by non-Jedi -- even if he has not yet achieved the status of Jedi Master. As of the start of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi had not yet achieved the formal rank of Jedi Master."

Then why did Lucasfilm Licencing tell Wizards of the Coast to make Jedi Master a PrC, citing that if you are training a padawan you are a Jedi Master. LFL, who decides what is and is not cannon, decided that the Jedi Order does not ever use the term "Master" as an honorific. So Obi-Wan being called Master Kenobi by Yoda is clear evidence that he is a Jedi Master. And just because Obi-Wan doesn't have the same skill ranks as Yoda in no way should be taken as meaning that he is not a Master. Not all Jedi Masters serve on the Council, and not all of them are as powerful as Qui-Gon Ginn; Mace Windu; and Yoda, that doesn't mean that they are not Jedi Masters like Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
18 September 2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain

LFL, who decides what is and is not cannon, decided that the Jedi Order does not ever use the term "Master" as an honorific.

What are you talking about? Where have you read that LFL first of all decides what is canon? My god, are you naive.
Do you know the Zahn Trilogy? Yes? Good. It was licensed by LFL as well. However in there we find out that the Emperor stored some Sparti-Cylinders as a relic from the Clone Wars. Nice. There are no Sparti-Cylinders in the Clone Wars. The big surprise of the book that the stormtroopers are clones - is none. They were clones right from the beginning. LFL makes not canon it just prevents to heavy contradictions. OK? It is there to ensure Lucasfilm can make money out of Star Wars, without ruining the possible creation of another movie. It is not canon. The EU is not canon. There is no Mara Jade in the movies, no Emepror's Hand - which would make Vader superflous, nothing like that, although LFL has licensed it.

The same way whatever WOTC produces is not canon. Concerning the Core Rules it is ok to take a Jedi Class even in the Rebellion Era - that is impossible because Yoda clearly says that Luke will be the last of the Jedi, wich is actually very important for the story, because t means no one else except him can face the Emperor and Vader.
However it would be idiotic to enforce something like that in a RPG. No one would play a RPG where one of the most interesting character-types are not available. So LFL agreed to that.


Originally posted by Errin Orwain

Then why did Lucasfilm Licencing tell Wizards of the Coast to make Jedi Master a PrC, citing that if you are training a padawan you are a Jedi Master.

Where have you heard that LFL told something like that to WOTC? It was the decision by the game creators and LFL agreed to it that is all. And no, you are not a Jedi Master when training a Padawan. If so, why is Obi-Wan not made Jedi Master in EP I when Yoda tells him he will train Anakin? Yoda says just a moment before that he now is a Jedi Knight, no Master. And even in the PrC description is clearly said that you are Jedi Master when you finished training a student.
Core Rules page 276, second paragraph under Jedi Master:
"Further, a Jedi usually doesn't become a Jedi Master until he trains a student to completion".

But surprise. In the Powers of the Jedi sourcebook, you'll find that it suffices to just train a student. Page 45, first paragraph:
"At some point a Jedi Knight becomes a Jedi Master. He takes on an apprentice..."

In the Jedi Apprentice books again there is written that you need to complete the training of a Padawan.

But all these products are licensed by LFL. So what? So what of this is now canon and what not? The answer is nothing of it is actually canon. It is EU, which diffrers a lot from the movies.
If Kenobi is a Jedi Master, why is he never called that way in the original trilogy, or any of its acompanying sources. Why does the staff of the actual moviemakers say that Kenobi is no Jedi Master?
Why do you trust one small department, LFL, when you do not trust the very people who are those which are in the lead of producing the movies, like Rick McAllum and the other members of the Jedi Council at starwars.com?

I pointed out earlier, that Kenobi had no reason to correct the Kaminioan of not being a Jedi Master - he wanted them to believe he was send by the Council to inspect the clones. But have you ever heard another Jedi to call Kenobi, Master? But Yoda is called Master by the Jedi, as is Mace Windu.

Ardent
18 September 2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
What are you talking about? Where have you read that LFL first of all decides what is canon? My god, are you naive.

That's uncalled for and incorrect. LFL is indeed responsible for the maintenance of Star Wars continuity including determination of what is and isn't canon. Everything deemed not canon by Lucasfilm Licensing (and a lot of what's not canon actually hits GL's desk, I believe) is labelled as an Infinities product. This is a relatively recent change on LFL's SOI, but a good one. Before just about anything could be canon and it was getting a little hard to tell what to pay attention to.


Do you know the Zahn Trilogy? Yes? Good. It was licensed by LFL as well. However in there we find out that the Emperor stored some Sparti-Cylinders as a relic from the Clone Wars. Nice. There are no Sparti-Cylinders in the Clone Wars. The big surprise of the book that the stormtroopers are clones - is none.

Notice the Zahn trilogy predated the prequels. A lot of Zahn's ideas (including Coruscant) George Lucas loved and decided to include in his vision of Star Wars. Zahn is a brilliant author who capitalized on single lines sprinkled throughout the OT. "Your father was a pilot in the Clone Wars" inspired the whole stormtroopers-as-clones thing. It's since come to pass in a prequel and it's undeniably canon now.


LFL makes not canon it just prevents to heavy contradictions. OK? It is there to ensure Lucasfilm can make money out of Star Wars, without ruining the possible creation of another movie. It is not canon. The EU is not canon. There is no Mara Jade in the movies, no Emepror's Hand - which would make Vader superflous, nothing like that, although LFL has licensed it.

In order to prevent heavy contradictions, GL had to let LFL be responsible for most of the work of determining what is and isn't canon. I think a lot of the questionable material hits his desk still, but ultimately the people at LFL do most of the footwork. The EU is and will remain canon up until George Lucas decides to throw it all out by making movies for every one in "his vision." Ergo, it's never going to happen and the EU will remain canon and, for the most part, intact.


The same way whatever WOTC produces is not canon. Concerning the Core Rules it is ok to take a Jedi Class even in the Rebellion Era - that is impossible because Yoda clearly says that Luke will be the last of the Jedi, wich is actually very important for the story, because t means no one else except him can face the Emperor and Vader.

I think Tempest Feud is labelled Infinities, but it's the only WotC product so labelled. Everything else WotC produces is considered part of the canon continuity, and they work pretty closely with LFL to maintain that status. Whatever it does or doesn't make superfluous, it made it through the gauntlet and is canon. FYI, Jedi during the Rebellion began with WEG in the days when things were a bit more lenient.


However it would be idiotic to enforce something like that in a RPG. No one would play a RPG where one of the most interesting character-types are not available. So LFL agreed to that.

Every RPG campaign is by its nature Infinities, even if it uses purely canon materials. Heck, even if you use purely canon characters it's still Infinities. It's just the nature of the beast.


Where have you heard that LFL told something like that to WOTC? It was the decision by the game creators and LFL agreed to it that is all. And no, you are not a Jedi Master when training a Padawan. If so, why is Obi-Wan not made Jedi Master in EP I when Yoda tells him he will train Anakin? Yoda says just a moment before that he now is a Jedi Knight, no Master. And even in the PrC description is clearly said that you are Jedi Master when you finished training a student.
Core Rules page 276, second paragraph under Jedi Master:
"Further, a Jedi usually doesn't become a Jedi Master until he trains a student to completion".

WotC's authors are pretty open about what happens behind the scenes there. I'd guess it's not straight from the horse's mouth...but as close as you're going to get from outside the company.

There are arguments for both sides on this issue and they've all been covered at least once in this thread.


But surprise. In the Powers of the Jedi sourcebook, you'll find that it suffices to just train a student. Page 45, first paragraph:
"At some point a Jedi Knight becomes a Jedi Master. He takes on an apprentice..."

This was a change in thinking on the part of LFL, probably. Whether or not Obi-Wan is considered a Jedi master is very unclear from Episode II's dialogue. GL hasn't publicly said yea or nay and probably won't as it's ultimately pretty unimportant to his stories.


In the Jedi Apprentice books again there is written that you need to complete the training of a Padawan.

Which one? Depending on whether it predates the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, that could be the truth at the time the book was written.


But all these products are licensed by LFL. So what? So what of this is now canon and what not? The answer is nothing of it is actually canon. It is EU, which diffrers a lot from the movies.

Only in that they're not on film. They're still both copyrighted in printed medium. ;)


If Kenobi is a Jedi Master, why is he never called that way in the original trilogy, or any of its acompanying sources. Why does the staff of the actual moviemakers say that Kenobi is no Jedi Master?

As I mentioned, it's pretty unimportant to George Lucas' story. As far as why Luke never addressed him as such...Luke's a farmboy from a hick planet in the middle of nowhere, and hasn't had any sort of pre-training. He doesn't know or understand the Jedi traditions, even when his "training is complete."


Why do you trust one small department, LFL, when you do not trust the very people who are those which are in the lead of producing the movies, like Rick McAllum and the other members of the Jedi Council at starwars.com?

Because answers change. LFL is responsible for making sure everyone keeps up with the changes. It's incredibly important to the continuity.


I pointed out earlier, that Kenobi had no reason to correct the Kaminioan of not being a Jedi Master - he wanted them to believe he was send by the Council to inspect the clones. But have you ever heard another Jedi to call Kenobi, Master? But Yoda is called Master by the Jedi, as is Mace Windu.

Why would the Kaminoans care whether or not he was a Jedi master if he was simply there to inspect the clones? Should it matter? Jedi Knights sit on the Council, too. As far as other Jedi...Yoda actually calls him Master Kenobi (or Master Obi-Wan...I can't remember which specifically) and Anakin refers to him as Master as well.

Remember, try to keep it civil.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
18 September 2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Ardent


That's uncalled for and incorrect. LFL is indeed responsible for the maintenance of Star Wars continuity including determination of what is and isn't canon It was not meant offensive, but what LFL does has nothing to do with canon. It just makes sure the whole big SW-machinery is not breaking together, if e.g. in one novel you read Luke Skywalkers dies and inanother one he still lives. But that has nothing to do with canon. The Flanelled One himself has cerated the SW universe and the movies.


Originally posted by Ardent

Notice the Zahn trilogy predated the prequels. A lot of Zahn's ideas (including Coruscant) George Lucas loved and decided to include in his vision of Star Wars. Zahn is a brilliant author who capitalized on single lines sprinkled throughout the OT. "Your father was a pilot in the Clone Wars" inspired the whole stormtroopers-as-clones thing. It's since come to pass in a prequel and it's undeniably canon now.
Yeah, but it was something special that the stormtroopers are clones in his books - although they have been all the time, as we know now. And there are no Sparti-Cylinders, although it was licensed by LFL. So it is canon and the movies not? I hardly believe so.


Originally posted by Ardent

The EU is and will remain canon up until George Lucas decides to throw it all out by making movies for every one in "his vision." Ergo, it's never going to happen and the EU will remain canon and, for the most part, intact. Could you please explain what you mean by that? I actually do not get you.
However the EU is not intact and therefore cannot not possibly outweight the movies in terms of canon.


Originally posted by Ardent

I think Tempest Feud is labelled Infinities, but it's the only WotC product so labelled. Everything else WotC produces is considered part of the canon continuity, and they work pretty closely with LFL to maintain that status. FYI, Jedi during the Rebellion began with WEG in the days when things were a bit more lenient.
Where is that said? I have not found anywhere on or in the book that it is infinities, so at least publically there is no labelling of that. Have I missed something? :?
Of course there were Jedi in WEG-books too. The reasons are obvious. But that contradicts the movies, although LFL allowed it - so its obvious that LFL does not decide on canon. Because the movies clearly say that Luke Skywalker is the only one Jedi left in Return of the Jedi, although RPG books tell a different story. So again the continuity is broken here. What makes you believe it is not broken, o planely wrong when they say Kenobi is a Jedi Master?



Originally posted by Ardent

This was a change in thinking on the part of LFL, probably. Whether or not Obi-Wan is considered a Jedi master is very unclear from Episode II's dialogue. GL hasn't publicly said yea or nay and probably won't as it's ultimately pretty unimportant to his stories.

Yes he did, through the Jedi Council. those are his closest employees of him, so I would regard what they say far higher than what is in any RPG book. Additionally it is in the official site in Kenobi's bio, which probably is also checked by LFL - again a contradiction. But since its the official site, thus less far from the original "source" I would defintely render it more true or canon than one line in a RPG book.



Which one? Depending on whether it predates the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, that could be the truth at the time the book was written.
Here you contradict yourself. Continuity does not regard "times when it was written". So again LFL has contradicted something. Why change it? There is no reason for it, but now we have two different phrases. So again LFL seems not to be trustworthy regarding canon, as does a RPG book.




As I mentioned, it's pretty unimportant to George Lucas' story. As far as why Luke never addressed him as such...

I did not speak of Luke, I meant Tarkin and Vader. And as said before all source of the original trilogy, e.g. the technical journal - also licensed by LFL - states he is a "mere" knight.




Because answers change. LFL is responsible for making sure everyone keeps up with the changes. It's incredibly important to the continuity.
First, continuity means there is no change and more importantly second: The Core Book was published in May 2002, printed much earlier, but the Jedi Council gave that answer in June 2002, both licensed by LFL, so LFL decided that Kenobi is no Master more recently than that he might be. Additionally the people in the Council like McCallum are in company terms superior to those of LFL, so I do not think they can counter what these people say.




Why would the Kaminoans care whether or not he was a Jedi master if he was simply there to inspect the clones? Should it matter? Jedi Knights sit on the Council, too. As far as other Jedi...Yoda actually calls him Master Kenobi (or Master Obi-Wan...I can't remember which specifically) and Anakin refers to him as Master as well.


After all they wer ordered to make those clones by a Master, so one should think a Master comes to check the order. However you are right it is actually not too important. But when sneaking into a clone factory and luckily being thought of as representative of the customer, I would not irritate the possible enemy with such details such as, no I am no Jedi Master, etc...
I do not recall Yoda calling him that way, but its possible ( it could be even got lost in the translation ). however we see other people being called Master, no matter their actual Jedi rank, if any. So "Master" seems to be a common phrase in the SW universe.
And I still fail to see why you regard a book more "trustworthy", although an official statement from the heads of Lucasfilm, which is even more recent than the book, says its different than that. And the "official" biography also says he is just a knight. And both of it is also reviewed by LFL. But still you say one line a book is more important than these two other "most-official" sources. Sorry, at least my logic tells me you have to be wrong.:?

Ardent
18 September 2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
It was not meant offensive, but what LFL does has nothing to do with canon. It just makes sure the whole big SW-machinery is not breaking together, if e.g. in one novel you read Luke Skywalkers dies and inanother one he still lives. But that has nothing to do with canon. The Flanelled One himself has cerated the SW universe and the movies.

I believe LFL's charter is available for public browsing. LFL is the left right and center of canon as far as Lucasfilm and Star Wars is concerned.


Yeah, but it was something special that the stormtroopers are clones in his books - although they have been all the time, as we know now. And there are no Sparti-Cylinders, although it was licensed by LFL. So it is canon and the movies not? I hardly believe so.

Actually, you can see the cloning chambers on Kamino, which may or may not be Spaarti cylinders. Never know. As far as the stormtroopers being special for being clones...I think that holds true. Han Solo was a stormtrooper for a while. Not every stormtrooper is necessarily a clone.


Could you please explain what you mean by that? I actually do not get you.

The EU is recognized as canon until such a time as George Lucas decides to change something. What happens is the continuity is adjusted to allow for the change and the parts of the EU that don't mesh are tossed out. This doesn't, however, mean entire books are tossed out. So the EU is very much intact, although there are swisscheese holes here and there because you don't go back and re-write a novel.


However the EU is not intact and therefore cannot not possibly outweight the movies in terms of canon.

The EU is intact and has an equal standing with the movies as far as canon goes UNLESS there's a conflict between the two. Then the movies are considered canon and the EU is simply dismissed. It doesn't make non-conflictual EU any less canon, however.


Where is that said? I have not found anywhere on or in the book that it is infinities, so at least publically there is no labelling of that. Have I missed something? :?

Well, I was thinking that because it's a little out-in-left-field it might not be Infinities, but I checked and I couldn't find the Infinities logo either, so I guess it's canon.


Of course there were Jedi in WEG-books too. The reasons are obvious. But that contradicts the movies, although LFL allowed it - so its obvious that LFL does not decide on canon.

How does that make anything obvious? If anything, it just muddies the water more. Most people who know about Star Wars accept that LFL is responsible for what is and isn't canon.


Because the movies clearly say that Luke Skywalker is the only one Jedi left in Return of the Jedi, although RPG books tell a different story. So again the continuity is broken here. What makes you believe it is not broken, o planely wrong when they say Kenobi is a Jedi Master?

The RPG books don't necessarily imply anything. They're constructed for use in all eras, and thus, have to include information on Jedi. It's up to individual gamemasters to make decisions pertaining to other Jedi in the Rebellion era. Only a couple have been established by the EU, and they have circumstances to adequately explain their existence.


Yes he did, through the Jedi Council. those are his closest employees of him, so I would regard what they say far higher than what is in any RPG book. Additionally it is in the official site in Kenobi's bio, which probably is also checked by LFL - again a contradiction. But since its the official site, thus less far from the original "source" I would defintely render it more true or canon than one line in a RPG book.

No, he didn't. Flat out no. His employees, which by the way includes everyone at WotC since he owns a controlling share in Hasbro, can say whatever they like, but it's not "from the horse's mouth" unless GL himself says it. Again, nothing is more or less canon with the caveat of films/EU contradiction.


Here you contradict yourself. Continuity does not regard "times when it was written". So again LFL has contradicted something. Why change it? There is no reason for it, but now we have two different phrases. So again LFL seems not to be trustworthy regarding canon, as does a RPG book.

I can't contradict myself here. Continuity is necessarily a shifting thing in a timeline that's being recreated as GL works on his prequels. LFL adjusts the official continuity to match GL's vision and then changes its policy regarding matters appropriately from there. They don't, however, necessarily track down all the contradictions themselves. That's for us to do...


I did not speak of Luke, I meant Tarkin and Vader. And as said before all source of the original trilogy, e.g. the technical journal - also licensed by LFL - states he is a "mere" knight.

Neither Tarkin nor Vader respected the Jedi. In Tarkin's case it was all Jedi. In Vader's case, it was this particular Jedi. They never imply he was anything less, either.


First, continuity means there is no change and more importantly second: The Core Book was published in May 2002, printed much earlier, but the Jedi Council gave that answer in June 2002, both licensed by LFL, so LFL decided that Kenobi is no Master more recently than that he might be. Additionally the people in the Council like McCallum are in company terms superior to those of LFL, so I do not think they can counter what these people say.

Continuity doesn't mean there isn't change. It means there is an established record that licensees are supposed to follow. LFL is free, however, to change it at any time according to their needs. I'm pretty sure all major continuity changes go through GL, since he's really the only one who can initiate them.


After all they wer ordered to make those clones by a Master, so one should think a Master comes to check the order. However you are right it is actually not too important. But when sneaking into a clone factory and luckily being thought of as representative of the customer, I would not irritate the possible enemy with such details such as, no I am no Jedi Master, etc...

Eh, Obi-Wan was as humble as most Jedi Knights were supposed to be; he might have if he had felt it important. Keep in mind, too, that being a Jedi master doesn't mean you're not a Jedi Knight still. ;)


do not recall Yoda calling him that way, but its possible ( it could be even got lost in the translation ). however we see other people being called Master, no matter their actual Jedi rank, if any. So "Master" seems to be a common phrase in the SW universe.

Mister is a bastardization of Master, which is the proper form of address for anyone above your rank when in a social setting (unless they're a noble or royalty, in which case the catch-all Lord is a better choice). The Old Republic is supposed to hearken back to "olden times" or some such, so I suppose it's intentional. I'll admit, there's a lot of "Master Jedi this" and "Master So-and-so that" being tossed around. Doesn't make my point any less valid.


And I still fail to see why you regard a book more "trustworthy", although an official statement from the heads of Lucasfilm, which is even more recent than the book, says its different than that. And the "official" biography also says he is just a knight. And both of it is also reviewed by LFL. But still you say one line a book is more important than these two other "most-official" sources. Sorry, at least my logic tells me you have to be wrong.:?

I tend to regard the latest word on something as the official stance. Mostly because I am familiar with the issues of a flexible continuity and the maintenance it requires on the part of its organizers. I used to have to do it myself, although on somewhat of a smaller scale than perhaps the LFL editors have to. If you had two sources of information on which to decide whether to attack or flee, which would you use? The two week old information or the two day old information? I think it's pretty obvious why I chose to believe the source I did in that light.

Again, I'll re-iterate, there is no source that is "more canon" than any other, with the exception of George Lucas. I think that's a pretty fair exception myself.

Tramp
18 September 2003, 11:14 AM
Actually, Ronen, LFL is directly responsible for dertermining what is and is not canon . If you look at my Signature, There's aquote, directly from one of the head Editors from LFL. They are alos specifically called the Keepers of Canon in the old Star Wars Galaxy Collecter Magazine, in issue #3, on page 2, specifically Sur Rostoni, from whom the quote is taken. All of the EU is controlled directly by LFL and maitains strict continuity with both the other books, comics and games, but also the movies themselves. Also, in the latest three issues of Star Wars Insider , there is a story by Timothy Zahn, set During the Clone Wars telling the origins of the Spaarti Cylinders, and yes they were created during the Clone Wars. The story is titled Hero's End , and runs from issues 68-70. The Flenneled One, is the one who authorized LFL to maintain Canon, so that he could focus on making movies; he can't run everything by himself. He doesn't even do all of the designs on the movies. The writers, artists, publishers, etc that do the work on the movies, books, comics, games, etc. are all a part of his sable of artists, and all contribute to what is canon. Also, the EU is indeed "intact" and can only be over-ruled by the movies when there are direct and irreconcilable contradictions . Also, Luke is the only known Jedi left. There is nothing in the movies saying that there is no possibilities that other Jedi may have survived the Jedi Purge. If Ben and Yoda survived by going into hiding, then it is possible that a few others could have as well. As far as Obi-Wan being a Master, Yoda and Mace Windu both refer to him as Master. First, when they're talking about Anakin, and Yoda does so again at the end of the movie, when Obi-wan claims that the battle was a victory. Yoda says
Victory? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shadow of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun this Clone War has. Yoda specifacally refers to Obi-Wan as "Master Obi-Wan". Also, it wasn't Rick Mcullum that said that Obi-Wan wasn't truely a Jedi Master, in the Ask the LFL Jedi Council; it was Jocasta Nu. Regardless whether it is an "honorific title, or because he has an Apprentice, Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master, and LFL does control what is and is not Canon.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
18 September 2003, 02:28 PM
So what more recent source than the bio and the JC question from June 2002 licensed by LFL do you have that Kenobi is a Jedi Master?

However obivously you were right concerning LFLs "authority". So much for that. But that does not change my point of view that the two most recent sources, checked by LFL, I have access to is that Kenobi is no Jedi MAster but only a Knight and at least the bio can be changed easily, if LFL should change its mind, so I would regard it as official.

BrianDavion
18 September 2003, 03:09 PM
if we go with the old accepted rule that a Master is a knight who's TRAINED a Padawan, then by E3 I suspect Obi-wan will definatly be a jedi master :p

Errin Orwain
18 September 2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
Concerning Obi-Wans skills, he is actually not that good.

If you bother to do the math you will find that Obi-Wans' total Force Skill bonus' at 10th level add up to 52 (average of 7.42 per skill). That is 85% of Master Vodo-Siosk Baas' 61 [@ 14th level (Average of 10.1 per skill)] and 76% of Saesee Tiins' 68 [@ 14th level as a Member of the Jedi Councel (average of 9.71 per skill)], now try to remember that that means that his average Force Skill bonus is only 2.29 to 2.68 lower than Masters Tiin and Baas respectively, and you don't find that impressive? Do you think that every Jedi Master has +19 to +23 bonuses on thier skills? Not everyone can be Yoda, that doesn't mean they can't be a Jedi Master.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
19 September 2003, 05:24 AM
Errin, thanks to the "wonderbad" system of D20 which is used for the SWRPG, all characters ahve the same skill points regarding the level, so any numbers which were made up by any author cannot hide the fact, that Kenobi not only "rushed" in to train Anakin, despite anything what the Council said and afterwards failed to train Anakin properly.

Ardent
19 September 2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
Errin, thanks to the "wonderbad" system of D20 which is used for the SWRPG, all characters ahve the same skill points regarding the level, so any numbers which were made up by any author cannot hide the fact, that Kenobi not only "rushed" in to train Anakin, despite anything what the Council said and afterwards failed to train Anakin properly.

Actually, considering how advanced Anakin is in Episode II, I don't think Obi-Wan blundered ANY of Anakin's training. He just failed to prepare his student for the Knight trials and Anakin wasn't prepared to leave his emotions behind...

Obi-Wan is a Jedi of the new school. There isn't a lot of information available on training a 10-year-old to be a Jedi. He was a Jedi initiate from when he can remember...he can't understand what it's like for Anakin. I think almost anyone would have failed in those circumstances (okay, maybe not Yoda, but Yoda doesn't have the time to instruct a single individual student, prophecy or not).

Tramp
19 September 2003, 07:57 AM
Well said, Ardent.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
19 September 2003, 08:30 AM
Still I do not think that you can use the RPG terms to weigh who the better Jedi is. This are completely fictional numbers ( yes I now the movies are fictional as well ;) ) but due to the restrictions of the D20 system, the differences between characters of the same level are only minor, especially regarding Attack Boni.
That these are only vague expressions of the actual character depicted is clearly shown by the fact that there are several "versions" of these cahracters even with different prestige classes, etc.
Additionally, e.g. we see that Anakin is not less skilled with a lightsaber than Kenobi, after all he can "handle" a Sith Lord on his own and uses two sabers in combat.

What I think is Obi-Wan's fault however, is that he failed to understand Anakin's psyche. Their relation is rather superflicious. Obi-Wan does not actually face the problems Anakin has, e.g. with his nightmares, but only tells him the "standard Jedi-phrases", which do not help Anakin at all. And Anakin has not enough trust to him, to actually speak about the trouble he has with Kenobi's style. He tells them Amidala, but not the only one who could change it. Actually I cannot remember any positive thing, Kenobi mentioned about Anakins behaviour. He says he is arrogant, he makes fun of his rescue efforts, tells him to control his feelings, but he does not help him.
On the other side Kenobi makes no direct complains, he remains vague. He is not confronting him with the fact that he is arrogant ( which he is ). Neither Kenobi is aware of Anakins feelings, nor does Anakin dare to tell him about that. That is a major failure in my point of view - which at the end exposes Anakin to the Dark Side. This failure cannot qualify Kenobi to become a Jedi Master.
Of course the failure is not only his own. It was wrong of the Council to make such an important Jedi the student of somebody who only most recently became a Knight himself and was student to a more "probelmatic" master, and adopted his worst attribute - stuborness. He even says he will trian Anakin no matter of the Council's decision. And the least what he should have done when confronted by Anakins complicated feelings, was inform the Council and maybe resign of Anakins training - which would have saved the galaxy one tyrrant.
Another point why Kenobi is not that skillfull is the fact that he was five years late when reaching the rank of Jedi Knight. In EP II and its novelisation its said that you usually become Jedi Knight around age 20, but Obi-Wan was already 25. Another reason why he probably is no Jedi Master.

Ardent
19 September 2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
Still I do not think that you can use the RPG terms to weigh who the better Jedi is. This are completely fictional numbers ( yes I now the movies are fictional as well ;) ) but due to the restrictions of the D20 system, the differences between characters of the same level are only minor, especially regarding Attack Boni.

Well, it turned out better than the D6 system. My character had 22D+1 lightsaber in D6. There weren't many people he couldn't thrash in a lightsaber duel, and if that failed, he could always use his 18D martial arts. Combat skills were heavily favored against non-combats. So much so that ridiculous imbalances in character strength developed. The WEG system was designed with single-shot adventures or two-or-three adventure "campaign" in mind. Unfortunately, most people like epic, sweeping campaigns.


That these are only vague expressions of the actual character depicted is clearly shown by the fact that there are several "versions" of these cahracters even with different prestige classes, etc.
Additionally, e.g. we see that Anakin is not less skilled with a lightsaber than Kenobi, after all he can "handle" a Sith Lord on his own and uses two sabers in combat.

This is a WotC idiosyncracy. I don't know why this continues to crop up, as it very probably could be halted with some better QA. As far as why someone can or can't compensate...that's pretty clear to a lot of people: Force points. Anakin burned a Force point and took it to Dooku. When his Force point was used up, though, Dooku took his arm. Anakin certainly wasn't anywhere near the same league as Dooku without the assistance of the Force. Even then, he was still overmatched.


What I think is Obi-Wan's fault however, is that he failed to understand Anakin's psyche. Their relation is rather superflicious. Obi-Wan does not actually face the problems Anakin has, e.g. with his nightmares, but only tells him the "standard Jedi-phrases", which do not help Anakin at all. And Anakin has not enough trust to him, to actually speak about the trouble he has with Kenobi's style. He tells them Amidala, but not the only one who could change it. Actually I cannot remember any positive thing, Kenobi mentioned about Anakins behaviour. He says he is arrogant, he makes fun of his rescue efforts, tells him to control his feelings, but he does not help him.

Obi-Wan was raised very differently than Anakin, or even you or I. It's unfair to judge his actions until we've lived a day in his shoes (or boots as it were). I think Obi-Wan seriously didn't know any better. I don't think any of the Jedi masters did. It was outside of their ordinary and their ordinary is all they knew all their lives.


On the other side Kenobi makes no direct complains, he remains vague. He is not confronting him with the fact that he is arrogant ( which he is ). Neither Kenobi is aware of Anakins feelings, nor does Anakin dare to tell him about that. That is a major failure in my point of view - which at the end exposes Anakin to the Dark Side. This failure cannot qualify Kenobi to become a Jedi Master.

Obi-Wan did nothing to expose Anakin to the dark side. When the dark side is a facet of our individual responses to emotions, how could Obi-Wan be responsible for Anakin's reactions? Anakin's formative years were spent without Obi-Wan. He was practically at the point of emotional maturity (if you want to call it that) when Qui-Gon stumbled onto him. Obi-Wan wasn't directly responsible for Anakin's fall. But he was guilty of not being able to prevent it. Of course, that's happened before and the Jedi Order simply chalks it up as probability's toll.


Of course the failure is not only his own. It was wrong of the Council to make such an important Jedi the student of somebody who only most recently became a Knight himself and was student to a more "probelmatic" master, and adopted his worst attribute - stuborness.

It may or may not have gone better had Anakin had a different master. Obi-Wan, however, was far and away one of the most promising Jedi Knights at the time, and wise beyond his years. As far as Qui-Gon's influence on Obi-Wan, I think it only helped to make Obi-Wan a stronger, more capable Jedi Knight. Qui-Gon followed the restraints he felt were warranted and ignored the ones he felt weren't. He had given himself entirely to the Force and lived to serve the Force's will (which is different from most of the Jedi of that era, who were split between the Force and the Republic).


He even says he will trian Anakin no matter of the Council's decision.

He made a promise, and as a man of honor, he would have to do everything in his power to fulfill it. That's a credit to his person.


And the least what he should have done when confronted by Anakins complicated feelings, was inform the Council and maybe resign of Anakins training - which would have saved the galaxy one tyrrant.

I don't think the Jedi Order was in the practice of letting someone resign their Padawan. A Padawan either succeeded or did not. If Obi-Wan failed to bring Anakin to his Knight trial, Anakin would not be a Jedi Knight and would either be placed somewhere he could be observed or eliminated (if his dark side tendencies were too great to risk unleashing), most likely.


Another point why Kenobi is not that skillfull is the fact that he was five years late when reaching the rank of Jedi Knight. In EP II and its novelisation its said that you usually become Jedi Knight around age 20, but Obi-Wan was already 25. Another reason why he probably is no Jedi Master.

It speaks to his patience. Obi-Wan obviously knew he had more to learn from Qui-Gon Jinn, even if it was pretty clear to the Council that Obi-Wan had already passed his Knight trials and then some... When Qui-Gon passed, Obi-Wan had to set out on his own and find his own way. The Council recognized this, granted him his Knighthood and let him fulfill his master's final request. Every Jedi Knight respected Qui-Gon Jinn. He was as close to a paragon of the Order as there was at the time. That's saying something. Their respect would naturally extend to Obi-Wan, who was his living heritage.

It's curious to see the new tack, but ultimately this is becoming a circular discussion. Do you have anything nobody else has mentioned prior in this thread? I remain entirely unconvinced Obi-Wan should be considered sub-par as a Jedi Knight.

Errin Orwain
19 September 2003, 12:26 PM
Ronin,
you also need to consider the fact that Obi-Wan did nothing to fail Anakin. The fact of the matter is that over the course of ten years the Jedi Councel failed to discover the fact that the Supreme Chancellor is a Sith Lord, this enabled said Sith Lord to quietly whisper seemingly innocent comments to Anakin to lead him to the Dark Side. Now if Yoda couldn't find Darth Sideous and stop him, why do think that Obi-Wan should take the blame? It is pretty clear that the interference of Sideous in Anakins training is the main cause of Anakins fall, it speaks to the skill and stealth of Darth Sideous that even 25 years later Obi-Wan thinks that he failed Anakin, which is not true, they just didn't know about the evil in their midst until it was too late.

BrianDavion
19 September 2003, 12:37 PM
for sure. we all saw it in E2. Plaptine's subtle twists.


"you don't need guidance anakin..."

Ronen Tal-Ravis
19 September 2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Ardent


It's curious to see the new tack, but ultimately this is becoming a circular discussion.

Well I think at least we can agree on that ;)

JudroBathens
20 September 2003, 05:25 AM
My take on the matter has been this: any Jedi who has a Padawan learner is addressed, as a matter of courtesy, as 'Master'. That Jedi does not have a 'permanent' claim to the title, however, until their first apprentice passes the trials and becomes a Jedi Knight. Thereafter, that person is a titular Jedi Master whether they are currently training an apprentice or not. This, in my mind, is similar to certain naval traditions of address--such as the fact that the commanding officer of a vessel, regardless of actual service rank, is addressed as 'Captain'... in fact, in the British royal Navy, once upon a time, officers whose permanent rank was Commander were commonly addressed as Captain out of courtesy although they had not yet achieved the actual rank of Captain. 'Real ' captains were sometimes referred to as 'post captains' to differentiate them from mere commanders.

In the films, non-Jedi seem to toss phrases like 'Master Jedi' and 'Jedi Master' around somewhat recklessly; but that can be excused, I suppose, owing to the fact that they may not understand the intricacies of the Jedi order and its traditions.

As to Obi-Wan ever becoming a Jedi Master... well, I'm given to understand that the Jedi Council answer on the official site that claimed that he 'never reached the level of Jedi Master' has been altered recently. This appears to tie into rumors that--well, how shall I say it without getting into spoiler territory--the question of whether or not Obi-Wan ever became a Master is going to be definitively addressed in Episode III...

John Chris
9 October 2003, 10:56 AM
Hmm... the Jedi council on starwars.com seems to have changed the answer to 'Kenobi hasn't reached the level of Master yet as of AOTC'. That creates even more rumors as to whether Obi-Wan achieves Master rank by Ep III.

Nova Spice
9 October 2003, 06:09 PM
Hmm... the Jedi council on starwars.com seems to have changed the answer to 'Kenobi hasn't reached the level of Master yet as of AOTC'. That creates even more rumors as to whether Obi-Wan achieves Master rank by Ep III.

I would think that two years after AotC, Obi-Wan has probably garnered enough commendation to be granted the title: Jedi Master. Considering that he is a general for the Army of the Republic and has fought from the beginning to the end of the Clone Wars, it makes sense that he'd become a Master.

I somewhat expect him to become a master.

-Episode I: Padawan
-Episode II: Jedi Knight
-Episode III: Jedi Master

Looks like a fit to me. ;)

Codym
9 October 2003, 11:11 PM
Since the circulation of Anakin's new look, it has been speculated that the Chosen One will have reached the rank of Jedi Knight by Episode 3, which will allow Obi-Wan to be granted the rank of Jedi Master. This is a major change from the offical line that Anakin/Obi-Wan never(etc) but doesn't really contradict anything in the original trilogy (infact clears up some of the semantic issues in dialogue.) However, only the arrival of Episode III will truly tell.

Errin Orwain
21 October 2003, 06:21 PM
I also think one should consider the fact that Obi-Wan did the great Jedi Disappearing act on the Death Star in Ep IV. now according to a cannon source [Star Wars-Tales of the Jedi I think] only Jedi Masters vanish [becoming one with the force] upon death, as UlicQel-Droma did when he was ambushed by Hoggon.

Ardent
21 October 2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain
I also think one should consider the fact that Obi-Wan did the great Jedi Disappearing act on the Death Star in Ep IV. now according to a cannon source [Star Wars-Tales of the Jedi I think] only Jedi Masters vanish [becoming one with the force] upon death, as UlicQel-Droma did when he was ambushed by Hoggon.

That's been overridden by George Lucas, who said not all Jedi Masters become one with the Force. Of course, he didn't really specify which would and why, either.

Errin Orwain
21 October 2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Ardent


That's been overridden by George Lucas, who said not all Jedi Masters become one with the Force. Of course, he didn't really specify which would and why, either.

not all Jedi Masters become one with the force, true. But my piont is does a "mere" Jedi Knight become one with the force like Obi-Wan did?

Are there any cannon examples of anyone that was not a Jedi Master becoming one with the force to contradict the statement in the EU comics [a cannon source] that only Jedi Masters vanish like that.

Reverend Strone
21 October 2003, 06:59 PM
It is my understanding that the answer to why Obi-Wan and Yoda vanished while Qui-Gon and Anakin didn't will be addressed and answered in Ep III. I appreciate that until then the EU comics are considered canon, but I wouldn't place too much long term faith in their explanation remaining that way when the film comes out. They are, afterall, only speculation on the part of their authors that has been granted Lucasfilm approval in the absense of an explanation from the definitive source.

At least that's my interpretation anyway.

Tramp
22 October 2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Reverend Strone
It is my understanding that the answer to why Obi-Wan and Yoda vanished while Qui-Gon and Anakin didn't will be addressed and answered in Ep III. I appreciate that until then the EU comics are considered canon, but I wouldn't place too much long term faith in their explanation remaining that way when the film comes out. They are, afterall, only speculation on the part of their authors that has been granted Lucasfilm approval in the absense of an explanation from the definitive source.

At least that's my interpretation anyway.

Actually, according to several EU sources, including the RCRB that Anakin did indeed become one with the Force upon his death, and the original Essential Guide to Characters specifically states that it was only Vader's armor that was burned on the pyre, not his body. It's been stated that his body disappeared off screen.


Are there any cannon examples of anyone that was not a Jedi Master becoming one with the force to contradict the statement in the EU comics [a cannon source] that only Jedi Masters vanish like that.

The only known examples of Jedi who were not Masters disappearing were Jem from Dark Empire II , and Daeshara'cor from Dark Tide: Ruin. Those are the only two known examples that I know of. It could be that during the time of TotJ: Redemption It was believed that only a Master could become one with the Force, but it turns out that this isn't always the case. The true factors involved will soon be revealed, I hope.

Reverend Strone
22 October 2003, 02:01 PM
Actually, according to several EU sources, including the RCRB that Anakin did indeed become one with the Force upon his death, and the original Essential Guide to Characters specifically states that it was only Vader's armor that was burned on the pyre, not his body. It's been stated that his body disappeared off screen.

Okay perhaps they do say that, but in the films his body didn't vanish in Luke's arms when he was holding him on the DS2. I personally wouldn't take that EU material as gospel as a result, but that's just my opinion, as I said. We did, however, see Anakin as a blue ghost afterwards, so perhaps you're indeed correct. Like I said, I imagine Ep III will reveal a little more of how this works. I maintain that until such time as we see it, all other info on the subject from sources other than the movies, whether considered canon or not, is still only speculation on the part of other writers. As we've seen in the past, GL will contradict them if it suits his vision.

That said, let's not let this derail the thread and start us in to another canon debate, it was merely an opinion and a prediction based on scarps of information Rick McCallum has said in interviews concerning the subject.

Ardent
22 October 2003, 02:22 PM
The conclusion I came to was that Darth Vader was burned in the funeral pyre on Endor while Anakin Skywalker became one with the Force.

Lucas Carr
22 October 2003, 05:48 PM
As far as I understand it, tales of the Jedi isn't cannon. But I'm sure Tramp can confirm if my understanding is true or not.

BrianDavion
22 October 2003, 06:47 PM
it's offical, not canon

Tramp
22 October 2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Lucas Carr
As far as I understand it, tales of the Jedi isn't cannon. But I'm sure Tramp can confirm if my understanding is true or not.

TotJ is part of SW Canon. Anything that is part of official continuity is canon. However, like the good reverend said, this is not the place for a conon debate. As far as the statment in TotJ: Redemption regardign only Jedi Masters disappearing, I already mentioned that this may have been flawed understanding of the phenomena by the Jedi of the time because only Masters had been witnessed disappearing upon death, not any of the knights.

Syden Took
27 October 2003, 06:58 AM
Well, i think that if you are a padawon you are under a jedi master. Because Obi was a knight in episod 1 and he took the test to become a master. And when you a master then you can train. Also i dont think that the number you can train. Like they told Qui that he has a padawon and you can only have one. But:yoda: had like 10 in episod 2. What is up wiht that? Also does Maci have any padawon? Because i haven't seen any. Well that is all for now.:sabersml:

Faraer
27 October 2003, 07:41 AM
A Padawan's master, who trains him or her, is a totally different usage to 'Jedi Master', which is a special status conveyed on only the wisest and greatest Jedi. Obi-Wan is a Padawan in Episode I and becomes a Jedi Knight at the end. Yoda is seen in Episode II training a clan of Jedi initiates who have not yet been chosen to be Padawans (though 'Padawan' is apparently also used loosely to refer to initiates). In the EU, Mace's Padawans have included Depa Billaba and Echuu Shen-Jon.

Syden Took
27 October 2003, 12:15 PM
No, if they were getting inspected then they would go infront of the councle. Also the knight thing ya you are right about. Also when does Obi become a master?

Tramp
27 October 2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Syden Took
No, if they were getting inspected then they would go infront of the councle. Also the knight thing ya you are right about. Also when does Obi become a master?

The children weren't being inspected, they were engaged in rudementary training. They had been taken by the Jedi as infants, as was custom at the time, and raised in the Jedi order. When they are old enough the children have the opportunity to be chosen as padawans to a higher level knight or master. In order for a Knight to become a Master, h must train an apprentice,, or have exceptional wisdom and experience in the Force.

Tyrok
30 October 2003, 04:47 AM
What's canon and not depends mainly on your definition of canon.
For some people canon is anything approved by LFL.
For me canon is anything made (or co-made:) by Lucas.
But since this is a SWRPG forum I think the first definition should be used.

As for masters disappearing, I don't think it works that way.
A little to tehnical for the mystical energy, Force.

BrianDavion
30 October 2003, 10:09 AM
any thing from tales of the jedi re: the force I tend to ignore.

whomever wrote that series hould be tarred and feathered

Ardent
30 October 2003, 01:13 PM
Most people tend to take everything said by TotJ in regards to the Force very seriously. You're talking about the height of Jedi power here. These were Jedi are their most knowledgable and most unrestrained. I tend to pay very close attention to anything said by TotJ in regards to the Force.

For the record, what you want to believe is canon is well and good, but the definition of what is canon is sitting in Tramp's signature and for the purposes of this forum and others, that's the bottom line. You can't say "that's not canon to me" because, frankly, it's canon. You can say "I'd rather ignore that" and that's fine.

It's sort of like the Vatican and saints. Every person who is canonized is a saint, whether you personally want to believe it or not. You're free to ignore their canonization, but they're still canonized.

Faraer
30 October 2003, 02:12 PM
Huh? This forum doesn't have a 'completist' policy like theforce.net's Literature forum. SW per George Lucas and SW per Lucas Licensing are both perfectly fine approaches with pros and cons.

Ardent
30 October 2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Faraer
Huh? This forum doesn't have a 'completist' policy like theforce.net's Literature forum. SW per George Lucas and SW per Lucas Licensing are both perfectly fine approaches with pros and cons.

One's canon, and one's just ignoring a large chunk of canon. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, but only one is canon.

Durian Keldrona
30 October 2003, 06:20 PM
By the way sparti cylanders are in a SW insider story. the kamino cylanders are not Sparti Cylanders. the clones go to a planet to get Sparti cylanders made to get another source for clones.

and according to Jedi counciling only Vaders armor was burned. Vader became one with the force when he died. it was just not shown.

BrianDavion
30 October 2003, 07:32 PM
Most people tend to take everything said by TotJ in regards to the Force very seriously. You're talking about the height of Jedi power here. These were Jedi are their most knowledgable and most unrestrained. I tend to pay very close attention to anything said by TotJ in regards to the Force.

including the idea that the force has two distinct external sides that are totatly seperate?

ohh and how about refences even by the jedi to "dark side sourcery"

I'm sorry but I just cannot reconsile TOTJ with my vision of the force

Reverend Strone
30 October 2003, 08:00 PM
Guys, let's not launch in to another canon/not canon debate in this thread. There are plenty elsewhere on the holonet, so derailing this one is kinda pointless. Feel free to take it up in one of the many other discussions on the subject, but let's stay on topic here please.

Your friendly Moderator.

DevJannz
7 November 2003, 09:12 AM
Another example of a non-Master pulling a fade when he died is Andur Sunrider.

Personally I don't go in for the whole canon/not canon debate because I think it is silly. I take what I think works for me and apply it. If others don't like it that's fine.

Errin Orwain
11 March 2005, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Codym
The Master reference to Kenobi is honorific, and does not actually reflect his station. This was clarified in the Ask The Jedi Council section of the official site. As previously pointed out, he never actually reaches the rank of Jedi Master.

Sorry, but this statement is very incorrect. check the official site at

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/obiwankenobi/index.html

and you will see this quote in Obi-Wans bio:
"During the Clone Wars, Kenobi ascended to the rank of Jedi Master, and he occupied a position in the Jedi Council."

So I will say it one last time...Obi-Wan Kenobi at the time of Episodes III and IV is a Jedi Master. End of story.

Tao
14 March 2005, 07:57 AM
another evidence for this would be the new trailer. obi-wan not only ascended to master, but he was also on the high council, as seen in the scene where anakin is denied the title of jedi master.

Jedi Cahlwyn
14 March 2005, 09:38 AM
>>>SPOILERS<<<


Kenobi - Is a Jedi Master by Ep3. Though at one point in the past, it was the official (Lucasfilms) stance that Obi-Wan was never "officially" made a Master. It seems a matter of semantics. Titles are just that... titles. They mean little to a real Jedi.

Calling a Jedi "Master Jedi" is usually an honorific used for respect. It can technically be applied from Padawan to Knight to Master. Being a Jedi Master is something different that requires lots of experience and the approval of the council. Also, levels in a prestige class doesn't always mean someone IS that.. You can be a Jedi Master without the PrC and I see nothing wrong with being considered a Knight (RPG story purposes) and take Master PrC for powers. PrC aren't binding.

Blue Glowies - Becoming a Force Spirit is rumored (strongly) to be explained and taught in Ep3 by Qui-Gon to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Becoming a Jedi Master (afaik in movies, EU, and RPG) - You technically become a Jedi Master when you train a Padawan and/or become experienced enough. It is determined that you are a Jedi Master by the Jedi Council. Bear in mind that Luke was a Jedi Master (I think before he started his academy) and he became one when he learned enough and felt he was. It isn't like taking a Jedi Master test and getting a certificate. :)

A Jedi Knight can (and is encouraged) to take a Padawan when they are ready. Taking a Padawan doesn't necessarily mean they become a Master either (though they are called "Master" out of respect).

All of these are supported in various places that are considered "official".

Keep in mind that Ep3 may support and/or unsupport these "facts". :) Mr. Lucas has a habit of doing that... hehe

Vanger Chevane
14 March 2005, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Cahlwyn
Calling a Jedi "Master Jedi" is usually an honorific used for respect. It can technically be applied from Padawan to Knight to Master. Being a Jedi Master is something different that requires lots of experience and the approval of the council.
This is well supported by the EU habit of using Master & Mistress as terms of respect, or in place of the English Mister & Miss/Mrs./Ms.

I do agree that "Master/Mistress Jedi" is a formal term of respect, while Jedi Master indicates a level of skill & prestige within the Jedi Order as well as with The Force.

Tramp
14 March 2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Cahlwyn
Taking a Padawan doesn't necessarily mean they become a Master either (though they are called "Master" out of respect).

According to LFL, taking on a Padawan is what makes you a Master. This is why JD Wiker changed Jedi Master to a PrC rather than part of level progression for Jedi. JD specifically stated this in [i]Jedi Couseling, and that answer can be found in the SWRPG FAQ.

Errin Orwain
14 March 2005, 04:45 PM
Although one does not have to take a Padawan to be a Master. Jorus C'baoth was granted the rank of Jedo Master based on his skill with the Force and his own deeds. This fact, although based on the EU, is documented on the official site.

Tramp
14 March 2005, 04:58 PM
Very true, which is why JD added that possiblility for taking on the PrC, which does indeed mean that you have that title. If you have the PrC Jedi Master, you are a Jedi Master.