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Lucas Carr
29 March 2003, 05:04 PM
I've just read the Powers of the Jedi Sourcebook (well not all of it) and it says that during the rise of the empire, the Jedi only had access to crystals that created blue and green lightsaber blades. But Mace WIndu's lightsaber was neither blue nor green. Did he have access to something others did not, was it an old crystal or something?

Does anyone know, or is this one of those things we shouldn't worry about?

Darth_Cassed
29 March 2003, 06:33 PM
hmmmm...did they have access to more before the rise of the empire?

Seghast
29 March 2003, 07:18 PM
Mace Windu's saber didn't use a crystal at all; it was a new type of saber, probably experimental. I can't remember what exactly it was called, though.

Durian Keldrona
30 March 2003, 12:24 AM
its an electrum sabre, but that has nothing to do with the crystal or color. It has to do with the handle being covered with electrum. Which for those not in the know is what a coin with a gold center and silver outside is called. This is what D&D is refering to when they talk about electrum pieces. They were originally roman coins. Just FYI

Faraer
30 March 2003, 10:54 AM
Haden Blackman's telling of how Mace created his lightsaber, "Stones," is in Star Wars Tales #13. Tales stories aren't necessarily part of continuity, so we have yet to see if this is the definitive EU account.

Electrum (on Earth) is an alloy of gold and silver.

Lucas Carr
30 March 2003, 03:20 PM
According to Power of the Jedi Sourcebook they had access to other types of crystals before rise of the empire.

So Windu made his own lightsaber. I don't have access to SW Tales #13, does it say where he got the crystals for a different colored blade when no one else was able to do so?

Jaggard
30 March 2003, 05:45 PM
are we talking about crystal stockpiles in temples or are we talking a harvest site. Because if we are talking about harvested crystals you might get something like high concentrations of blue and green and to find other colors you have to hunt on the edges of deep sea vents where pressures, contaminants and extremes of temprature would effect the crystals. Quarts crystals can go from clear to black from exposure to radiation, antique glass can turn clear to blue, and salt can turn from white to a brown but at least in this case it reverts if heated (emits a flash of visible light and turns white again). Impurities change the color of all gems and even shapes of crystals can change under certain circumstances.
If we are talking stocks of crystals, I'm not sure what would do it. Maybe something as simple as a specific cut or shapeing of the crystal would do something. Since we don't know what the crystal stucture is like maybe being at the bottom of the pile under the weight of the others.
If you are looking for a way to justify not having the same color as others any of these might work. Then again you could have one of those rare two crystal sabers and take the second crystal from a sith blade to use it to improve the blade and to frustrate the dark side by applying it's powers for the side of good.
There has been referance to darksiders making their own crystals (and many tend to be red) so maybe the color has to do with the creator of the crystal or the feelings surrounding it as it forms. Almost anything could do it.

Lucas Carr
30 March 2003, 06:19 PM
According to the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook (PJS), the Sith have a stockpile of red crystals. While the Jedi don't seem to have such a stockpile, but do have access to some blue and green harvest sites.

Before the battle of Ruusan (Don't remember the spelling, but it's the planet where the Valley of the Jedi is) the Jedi had access to crystals from that world, which were of "every" color according to PJS and in the New Jedi Order era they'd found new harvest sites that gave the Jedi crystals of other colors then blue and green.

The reason I asked about Windu's lightsaber color was because I'm sure there is a reason he has a different color, but I wasn't sure that that reason was known in the SW community. One of those things that might help me win Star Wars Trivial Pursuit one more time. :D

Reverend Strone
30 March 2003, 08:09 PM
As to the in-universe explanation for Mace's saber being purple, I haven't heard one yet, but I do remember an interview with Sam L. Jackson in which he said Lucas had asked him what colour he wanted. GL gave him the choice of blue or green, to which SLJ replied, "so no purple?" GL muses for a moment and then goes, "okay".

Interestingly though, it seems even within the range of blue and green there is significant variation. Compare the blue saber Obi-Wan fights with in AOTC and TPM with the one he has in ANH. The colour range within blue seems to be everything from a deep cobalt to near white.

Lucas Carr
30 March 2003, 08:39 PM
Okay. Thank you for all the input.

Jim Williams
31 March 2003, 05:09 AM
IMC, we just said that the Jedi Order circa Rise of the Empire was a little regimented and imposed a semblance of order in the color of lightsaber blades. While my co-GM and I could only come up with a few reasons why the Council would do it, we just went with the idea that a little uniformity in an organization is good just for uniformity's sake.

So, IMC, blue and green lightsabers were for padawans, Knights, and Masters.

Purple was reserved for the "recognized master of the Jedi fighting arts".

Yellow was assigned to a Jedi that has killed a fellow Jedi in combat. The point behind this was that the Jedi would carry the yellow lightsaber until he or she came to realize that it wasn't necessary for them to carry it anymore. It would only be a penance for as long as it took the Jedi to realize that serving a penance was unnecessary.

And red is for bad guys. The dark side taint in someone, if strong enough, changes the color to red. Think of it like bad guys just HAVE to turn their pistol sideways when they shoot.

Lucas Carr
31 March 2003, 07:25 AM
Do you have Power of the Jedi Sourcebook (PJS)?
At least I think it was there they said that lightsaber blades do not change colors.

I like your thinking on this point about uniformity, unfortunately PJS says that that is not the reason. The Jedi's only have access to crystals that give blue and green colored blades and the Sith has a stockpile of red crystals.

But then again in your campaign, you can change things any way you like.

Thank you.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
31 March 2003, 01:30 PM
Well I handle it the way that the Jedi have a storage with the green and blue crystals, for Padawans to built their lightsaber - an important step towards being a Jedi Knight.

As Windu is a very good combatant, which I assume he was in his youth as well, maybe he had the trials to find some very special crystal at some very special place, where he got his purple one from - it is just that normal Jedi do not have one.


BTW, my character's blade is orange :)

Reverend Strone
31 March 2003, 02:55 PM
Perhaps Mace's saber, or at the very least the crystal, date from a time when other colours were available? Perhaps it is an heirloom- an Excalibur kinda deal?

hisham
31 March 2003, 08:15 PM
On another note, one of my players who was a Minor Jedi in my D6 campaign had a pink lightsaber which he named Matilda.

That lightsaber was as much a character as any PC. :)

Darth Fury
31 March 2003, 09:23 PM
I'm pretty sure that somewhere in one of the books(d20) it was said that a jedi will construct many lightsabers during his/her lifetime.

Most likely to my way of thinking is that Mace discovered the 'purple crystal' during an assingment in the rim, wild or unknown regions keeping one for himself and returning with one for the council to examine. Most likely the remoteness of the planet, difficulty to reach the planet/crystals, the relatively small amount of crystals, the overall highcost or the difficulty to retrieve the crystals made it unwise to risk harvesting them when the blue or green crystals where so readily avalable.

Of course these are just my thoughts and theories, justify it any way you want. I doubt GL or the EU writers will explain it to us any time soon. ;)

Lucas Carr
1 April 2003, 05:01 AM
I wasn't looking for justification, I wanted to know the "truth", but as you say the powers that be may be more interested in telling other stories.

In my own mind I thought that Windu might have access to an "old" crystal. But there might exist some locations were the crystals of other can be found, but these locations are so far from anything else in the galaxy and the number of crystals wouldn't make it worthwhile to go there to get them.

I have made many jedi characters through the years and though I cannot remember the color of their lightsaber, I know that most of them had some other color then green, blue, and red.

Crymoon
1 April 2003, 05:15 AM
I'm a damn layman when we talk about optics, but i believe that it's possible to change the color of the lightsaber by a special cut of the crystal so that the light would rebound in different length..
Please say that what I wrote made sense... :?

Just an idea... :D

Vanger Chevane
1 April 2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Crymoon
I'm a damn layman when we talk about optics, but i believe that it's possible to change the color of the lightsaber by a special cut of the crystal so that the light would rebound in different length..
Please say that what I wrote made sense... :?

Just an idea... :D

I disagree. No matter how you cut a Sapphire, one of the main ways of determining a Sapphire from an Amethyst or Ruby is that they're almost always blue.

Cut may help determine the shade, and maybe give you some interesting refractive efftecs, but the crystal's internal chemistry would pretty much dictate the color (the vast amount of Nitrogen in air made the first Artificial Diamonds all come out brown until someone worked up a solution).



For crystal cut and/or shape to determine the frequency of light refracted through it, it would have to be incredibly small, close to the Microscopic scale, and IMHO a crystal that small simply couldn't handle the amount of power being pushed through it.


Tho it'd be really interesting to see what would it'd look like if you made a Lightsabre with a Star Sapphire as the primary crystal.:D

Durian Keldrona
1 April 2003, 06:04 PM
I have to say the best info is Bob Browns Lightsabre Page. It has a very good explination of lightsabres. and it looks at all different methods of creating them.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres4.htm

Darth_Cassed
1 April 2003, 07:27 PM
Well, I have to agree with Crymoon, you can alter the color. Since purple is a shade of blue, it could be that he just had 2 crystals- one blue, one red. It could be an electrum lightsaber. It could be a crystal he found before this era. It could be a matter of rank. It could be a matter of imbuement and such to achieve this. The fact is, well, we don't have a fact. We have many facts. You can turn these into plot ideas, you can do what you want with them. It's your game.

Darth_Cassed
1 April 2003, 07:36 PM
Well...we do have this, (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10715&highlight=Lightsaber+Crystals) this, (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7733&highlight=Lightsaber+Crystals) this, (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8393&highlight=Lightsaber+Crystals) and finally this. (http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/entry.php?s=&id=588)
Need more info?

Tramp
1 April 2003, 08:15 PM
The POTJSB states that Jrdi during the RotE Era all get their crystals from the planet Ilum, which produces crystals of only blue or green. The Star Wars Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary states that Mace Windu made his crystals using a technique similar to the Sith.

Darth Fury
1 April 2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Darth_Cassed
Well, I have to agree with Crymoon, you can alter the color. Since purple is a shade of blue, it could be that he just had 2 crystals- one blue, one red. It could be an electrum lightsaber. It could be a crystal he found before this era. It could be a matter of rank. It could be a matter of imbuement and such to achieve this. The fact is, well, we don't have a fact. We have many facts. You can turn these into plot ideas, you can do what you want with them. It's your game.

BLUE is a primary color, one of only three, RED and YELLOW being the other two. ALL other colors are a result of a combination of two of the three or all three of the primary colors. PURPLE is a combination of BLUE and RED it is NOT!!! a "shade" of BLUE!!!!:raised:

Crymoon
1 April 2003, 10:58 PM
Do I understand it correctly that the crystal focuses the energy from the emitter. Now my question is: Is thet energy transmitted as light waves or other kind of energy?
(pleas don't tell me that light waves aren't kind of energy cos that's not the point.. just try to understand what I wanted to say, ok? - that's for all those that just want to argue and aren't very productive in it)

If yes we could set another crystal just before the focusing crystal and change the light color so that after it exits foxusing crystal we would have the color we want.. of course the possibilities are limited to the colors that can be made using the color of the focusing crystal but that gives as more color possibilieties...
Or am I just plain dumb...?

Durian Keldrona
2 April 2003, 12:08 AM
yellow is not a primary color. at least not in physics. the primary colors are red green blue. ROYGBIV is the way to remember. red orange yellow green blue indigo violet.

in inks and paints the primary colors are cyan, yellow, magenta, black or cymk.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
2 April 2003, 02:08 AM
I don't think you can use a method to change the blade emitted from a lightsaber. Or better, you should not do it. The problem is that its light. Making it change colour means it looses energy, thus would deal less damage ( interestingly red light has least energy, so the Sith have weaker ones? ). BTW of course light waves are energy. They are electromagnetic waves, i.e. moving electric fields, which are energy.

Jim Williams
2 April 2003, 05:03 AM
For what its worth, in my campaign we're avoiding the whole frozen blaster, light, what kind of energy is focused by a lightsaber...

It's a radical departure from source material (I'm sure), but IMC the Jedi's lightsaber blade is focused Force energy tapped by the harmonizing of the focusing crystals during the imbuing process. It can cut through anything, requires no battery, no recharging...

The downside (heh heh heh) will come one day when a ysalimiri cuts off the jedi from the Force and the blade deactivates...

Crymoon
2 April 2003, 05:11 AM
When we are talking how we did it in our campaign it goes like this.

I didn't bother about the mechanical side of lightsaber just mystical... So the color of the lightsaber was any that players wanted to and we didn't bother if it was the crystal that made it or anything else..

But if we are trying to decipher the "real life" reasons for colors then maybe we should ask Lucas... :)

He'd probably put some mambo-jumbo about crystal resources etc.
But I believe that there must be a way of making your lightsaber any color you want, as some races cant's see some colors, and I wouldn't for sure feel comfortable with a blade I cannot see..

Faraer
2 April 2003, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by Tramp
The POTJSB states that Jrdi during the RotE Era all get their crystals from the planet Ilum, which produces crystals of only blue or green. The Star Wars Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary states that Mace Windu made his crystals using a technique similar to the Sith. The E2VD doesn't say anything about Mace's lightsaber crystals, the only source on that is "Stones". The Ilum information is just repeating what was established by Jedi Quest -- Path to Truth.

None of the EU sources that talk about crystals propose they work by Earth physics; that would be too silly. Jedi use green and blue lightsabers, signifying peace and virtue; Sith use red lightsabers, signifying hate and evil. Lousy EU works blind to the symbolism have used sabers of all sorts of colours. Other EU sources have provided various more or less pointless rationalizations. That's all you need to know.

Ardent
2 April 2003, 09:22 AM
Eh, if lightsabers were light they'd be incapable of half the stuff they do. They DO require batteries. They DO run out of energy.

Frankly, I think a Jedi's lightsaber needs recharging less frequently than a non-Jedi's would, if only because of superior components available to them during the RotE and previous eras. My Jedi once had to jury-rig a lightsaber from a MSE droid power core. The thing constantly shut down at the worst moments, and my character quickly learned to rely on other weapons (yay Force pike).

I'd say a lightsaber's blade is some sort of manifestation of Einstein's relativity field in relation to pure energy. Sort of a "Suspension of Extremely Excited Molecules with an Unexcited Focus" deal.

Jim, I definitely try to stay away from the lightsaber's energy being a manifestation of the Force. That seems wholly contrary to the idea that Jedi were not the only persons to wield them in the past.

As far as non-standard colorations, the only one I allow is silver. It makes logical sense that you'd be able to create a silver (or white) bladed lightsaber if it's a creation of pure energy. You'd just have to find the right crystal focus. We've seen purple, green, red, blue and silver sabers in my campaign, and that's about it.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
2 April 2003, 12:28 PM
As far as GL goes, I would also not stick too much to the idea of it being just force energy, as once the Stormtroopers were planned to wield this weapons as well.

Lucas Carr
2 April 2003, 04:19 PM
I don't believe that earth physics, as we know them today anyway, can explain how lightsabers work. Thus all I really care about in this aspect is that it works. The true mechanics aren't interesting to me.

I also believe that Lucas had a reason to pick blue, green, and red for his lightsabers. But as stories go, the author may have one reason, but there have to be a valid in story reason to why it is that way too.

In this case it is the crystals. Or that is the official rules anyway.

Now I've heard three "in story" reasons to why Windu's lightsaber was purple. He found some rare crystals that produced that color. The crystals came from a previous era when they were more prevalent. And he made them.

If the lightsaber blade is the force, it must have been imbued into the lightsaber itself or otherwise non-force user couldn't use the lilghtsaber and from Qui-Gon's comments in TPM, non-force users can use the lightsaber. Then we have the Ysalimary (don't remember the spelling) that would have wrecked havoc with lightsabers a long time ago if they worked this way.

Reverend Strone
2 April 2003, 05:04 PM
If the lightsaber blade is the force, it must have been imbued into the lightsaber itself or otherwise non-force user couldn't use the lilghtsaber and from Qui-Gon's comments in TPM, non-force users can use the lightsaber.

Yeah- and let's not forget Han having no trouble using Luke's lightsaber to fillet his Tauntaun in ESB.

Darth_Cassed
2 April 2003, 05:53 PM
Let's try to remember Star Wars physics are not governed by our own. In Star Wars, it may very well be possible for light to do such a thing.

Darth Fury
2 April 2003, 06:41 PM
Yes durian if you are talking about the light primaries you're correct I was speaking of the pigment primaries.

My point was that purple is not a SHADE of blue it is a HUE of indigo.:D ;)

Ardent
2 April 2003, 07:49 PM
Well, it's one thing to stretch theoretical physics, Cassed, it's something else entirely to rewrite the existing laws (which did happen to some extent, but rewriting the laws surrounding light would, well, mean that nothing we saw in the movies was actually what it appeared to be).

There are plenty of plausible reasons to explain Windu's saber. If blue and green sabers represent the virtue and/or purity, and red represents hatred, anger, etc, then purple could represent being a major bada**. I mean, Jedi imbue their Force essence into crystals to create their lightsabers...couldn't that be an explanation for the coloration of the blades (obviously, to some extent)?

More things to ponder...

Durian Keldrona
2 April 2003, 07:51 PM
1 refer to the second part of my paragraph
2 since a lightsabre is not ink I still refer to my first part as the cymk colorspace does not apply to light sources. this is one of the things that took a while to figure out when they were trying to make color tv.

Darth Fury
2 April 2003, 08:49 PM
Shade- to add or subtract the light value from a color to produce a "lighter" or "darker" represntation of that color. The degree to which a color is mixed with black.

Hue- the property of a color that is percieved and measured; a particular color seen as distinct from other colors; tint

I'm not going to argue primary colors with you any more. Try mixing paint with red, green, and blue. Very tough to make orange w/o yellow!

BTW its cmyk not cymk heres a link (http://www.cnet.com/Resources/Info/Glossary/Terms/cmyk.html)Link (http://members.aol.com/Sabbeth/Coloroct.html)

Crymoon
2 April 2003, 10:28 PM
If we base our knowledge on books then reading I, Jedi you would discover that in part we see an event from the past of one of Horn's family who sucks energy out of a lightsaber stuck into him...
Rather couldn't suck force as he was able to absorb energy.... and if you could absorb force... my jedi wouldn't have to eat nor sleep... What a life... just everyday a breakfest of force sucked from the air... Would love that...
Then everybody could call Jedi sucker...:D

Durian Keldrona
2 April 2003, 11:53 PM
darth fury
Light works different than paint.
That is what I am trying to tell you. Look it up in a physics book.

if you mix green and blue you get yellow.

Ardent
3 April 2003, 12:56 AM
Hm, I can't remember if that's true or if you're thinking of something else. Some sort of light always cancels out some sort of light, allowing backwards progression through the color palette, but I don't think what you said is exactly right...

Lucas Carr
3 April 2003, 07:14 AM
This has been said before, but it seems to me it can be said again.

When you talk about the colors of light, you use Red, Green, and Blue. Adding RBG light in different intensities will create ALL colors of light there is.

If, on the other hand, you put it on paper the colors needed are Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. With these three colors you can make any other color on paper. Mix CMY and you get black, the "key color" of CMYK.

Silent
3 April 2003, 07:27 PM
Yeah, if I remember properly light get its colour by adding different parts of the spectrum, and paint gets it by subtracting different parts of it. Thus, if you were in a room that was lit by a reb bulb and you looked at a blue piece of paper, the effect would be black: the red lamp sends out only red light, but the blue paper subtracts all colours but blue, so no colours are reflected. On the other hand, if it were a red lamp with a blue flashlight, you'd end up with something other than black, since the room is lit by two colours. (what does red and blue added together make? I'm not sure...)

As for lightsabres: Magic!:P

Durian Keldrona
3 April 2003, 07:47 PM
lightsabers are like lightbulbs as far as giving off light other than that they are a tech we do not know how to make yet

Ardent
4 April 2003, 12:08 AM
I think red and blue cast the room in a really eerie green hue, Silent. I spent a lot of time in chemistry lab playing around with lights and stuff, but for the life of me I can't remember what I was doing playing around with lights, and what I learned...

Darth_Cassed
4 April 2003, 11:11 AM
Star Wars did rewrite physics. This is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction. They can do what they want. There is apparently sound in space in the Star Wars universe, there seems to be gravity, fire, smoke, explosions, ships maneuver as if in atmosphere, velocity- none of the Star Wars physics follow our laws.
If you read too much into it, you can prove anything. On the surface, their physics are not like ours.

Durian Keldrona
4 April 2003, 11:38 AM
the reason there is sound in space is because the audience does not like a movie with no sound in space.


as for moving like an airplane in spce this could for done... to do do it require gravimetric type drives.. which at this time are theoretically possible though we have no idea how.

Ardent
4 April 2003, 07:38 PM
Actually, we know exactly how to build a gravimetric drive. The problem lies in powering one. ;) If you removed the jet engines and strapped rocket engines to a 747 and towed it into space, it would "fly" in space. Aerospace dynamics are, well, for lack of a better word, totally nonexistant. You could propel a cube with the same amount of energy as a wedge if you wanted to. The reason rocket boosters/shuttles are aerodynamic is because they have to move between the surface and space, so aerodynamics are important for passing through the atmosphere.

As far as sound in space, can you imagine trying to sit through the Battle of Endor without any sound whatsoever? It'd be...eh. It'd be very, very eh. I doubt that the actual physics of space were rewritten in GL's head. He was just a savvy enough filmmaker to realize that audiences like a tactile experience.

In fact, it seems unlikely GL set out to rewrite physics at all. His lack of knowledge in the field (at that time, now he seems to be very up-and-up on it) made some things stand out to those of us with that sort of background, but it doesn't mean we should take it to mean physics are intrinsically different in the Star Wars Universe than our own.

Darth_Cassed
4 April 2003, 07:53 PM
http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/entry.php?s=&id=522 Sound in space

The problem with maneuvering in Star Wars is that engines don't shut down. In reality they just need a boost to move. Star Destroyers always have their engines on.

Ardent
4 April 2003, 08:03 PM
Well, starcraft function on some sort of fusion reaction, and if the fusion core is running all the time, it needs to exhaust SOMETHING (I don't remember what was the theorized by-product of free energy), so that may not actually be the engines providing thrust, just expelling by-products. Of course, that's a totally excusable excuse.

Darth_Cassed
4 April 2003, 08:15 PM
lol we can discuss this for a while, but if we do we should make a new thread. Shall we discuss the topic at hand?

Reverend Strone
5 April 2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Darth_Cassed
lol we can discuss this for a while, but if we do we should make a new thread. Shall we discuss the topic at hand?

Yes, yes! To Darth_Cassed you listen...


Good notion- keeps the boards tidier. :)

Darth_Cassed
5 April 2003, 08:58 PM
I think this thread is coming to a close, with the question answered with several answers...any more comments on Lightsaber color?

Silent
7 April 2003, 09:26 AM
As far as sound in space, can you imagine trying to sit through the Battle of Endor without any sound whatsoever?

You don't have to imagine it: just go through the whole battle with the "mute" button on! Turn it off when the view switches to the inside of a cockpit, and you have realistic Star Wars! Put it to Classical music for even more strange fun...

Darth_Cassed
8 April 2003, 06:41 PM
You sick son of a...

lol just kiddin. Seriously though, this was a great discussion. If anyone has any last comments, let them come now before the thread gets buried. I'm sure this will come up again, so if it does, please direct people here....

Master Tryka
13 April 2003, 10:04 AM
Well, into the NJO though (I know slightly off topic) The Solo Kids, well Anakin and Jaina, are also running around with purple sabers. And in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it describes in fair detail about a stove that Sith use to "make" crystals. The syntehsize then and embed the dark side at the same time. Luke does something similar in Shadows of the Empire



:amidala: MILF MILF

Darth_Cassed
3 May 2003, 08:07 PM
Yes, the Sith use stoves often. This gives them perfect layering, while being embued with the dark side. However this is the easy way out, hence the dark side. Luke has treaded that line several times, but also remember the old Jedi ways were lost to him, he could not know. Mace Windu would not have done this. It is my assumption this was a crystal he had been using for a while, or one given to him as a gift....

Master Tryka
3 May 2003, 09:14 PM
I hope I'm following this straight, and I think I am, but I remember reading somewhere that Mace didnt even use a crystal for his saber, it was som different technology. And I'm not sure "baking" a crystal is an easy way out, yeah you dont have to search and find one, but it took considereable time and force energy during the process. And the Luke thing, in my eyes, wasn't that valid, because he did this before he made any real dark side leanings. Jaina Solo manufactured her crystal in a similar fashion, and yes she also did a brief dark turn, but that was years later. Maybe the manufacturing of crystals leads to an un-pure connection to the force or something, I dont know, but I do know I am rambling and need to worry less about writing a new campaign and more about sleed.


:thrawn:

Darth_Cassed
4 May 2003, 07:12 AM
Actually you are correct. If you read the thread (lotsa readin) then it was discussed. What was it....I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the technology....well it's in here somewhere!

Faraer
4 May 2003, 12:06 PM
Huh? There's no suggestion that Mace Windu's purple-bladed electrum-plated lightsaber isn't focused by a crystal.

Tramp
4 May 2003, 12:57 PM
Mace Windu's Electrum Lightsaber does indeed still use crystals to produce the blade. It is discussed in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC and mentions that he used a process similar, though not exactly the sae, as used by the Sith, to create his crystals.

Faraer
4 May 2003, 01:59 PM
I have to say huh? again. The Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary doesn't say anything about Mace's lightsaber crystals apart from labelling the crystal chamber.

Tramp
4 May 2003, 02:30 PM
Check the section dealing with lightsabers rather than Mace's personal entry; the information should be in there.

Seghast
6 May 2003, 12:26 AM
Huh? There's no suggestion that Mace Windu's purple-bladed electrum-plated lightsaber isn't focused by a crystal.

Actually, Faraer, I said it doesn't use a crystal on the first page of this thread.

And I still stand by that. I saw the Visual Dictionary's entry about the crystal, but I clearly remember reading in another book somewhere that Mace's saber doesn't use a crystal. Problem is, I don't remember what book I read it out of.

I remember that Trigger was with me, as this was in a store, and we both couldn't believe it. I've asked him about it, and though he recalls the event, he can't remember what book it was, either.

I know I sound crazy, and in fact, I know that I am crazy. But, I also know that I did read somewhere that Mace's saber does not use a crystal.

And yes, it was a real book, not some spoof book. What really irks me is that even though I have been searching for that book, I have been unable to find it again.

Though, it would probably help a great deal if I could remember the title.

Durian Keldrona
6 May 2003, 01:12 AM
what electrum is
http://www.mindat.org/min-1365.html

it refers to the casing of maces sabre and has nothing to do with this crystal which is one that produces a purple blade.

Louis Cipher
10 May 2003, 10:20 PM
Though the stories and writing are definitely geared towards younger readers, the Young Jedi Knights book "Lightsabers" has a great deal of information on how the Jedi Acadamy students created their sabers, and what sort of crystals/frequency etc. would do to the colour of the blades.
This is the most comprehensive "official" discription of the process that I have seen. As a published Star Wars novel, it has had GL's approval.
Give it a read.

Darth Fury
11 May 2003, 03:44 AM
Welcome to the holonet, brother!!!!;) :D

SilverBlade
11 May 2003, 08:46 PM
you know what. Personaly I think that it doesnt matter what color a Jedi's lightsaber's color is. The color doen't have anything to do with how the Jedi acts (is lightside or darkside). The true reason why Mace had a purple lightsaber is because Samuel L. Jackson's favorite color is purple, he admitted it himself. George Lucas just wanted all GOOD Jedi to have either blue or green, but he made an exeption in Jacksons case.

Darth_Cassed
12 May 2003, 07:15 PM
Yes, I have heard the same. At that point orange and yellow and all kinds of lightsabers were invented....

Master Tryka
12 May 2003, 07:23 PM
well, In my opinion, red are pretty much exclusive to dark siders, be it that they have a huge stockpile of that type (according to POTJ or DSS i think) or the fact that thats what their "oven" allows them to create.
Granted at times Leia's is considered crimson, which is a shade of red i guess.

Tramp
13 May 2003, 03:08 PM
Actually, Leia's is scarlet. not crimson. Both are a type of red though.

lynnlefey
14 May 2003, 08:16 PM
First, for anyone interested, the exact moment Samual L. Jackson asks Lucas for the purple blade is on one of the documentaries on the second disc of 'Attack of the Clones'. I think it's the Web documentary called 'Good to G.O.'

Second, for whoever mentioned it earlier, blue and green light make Cyan, not Yellow.

Projected/reflected color works like this...

Red light + Green Light make Yellow
Green Light + Blue light make Cyan
Blue light plus Red Light makes Magenta

Now to fry your brains...

Magenta ink plus Yellow ink makes Red
Yellow Ink plus Cyan Ink makes Green
Cyan Ink plus Magenta ink makes Blue

Red + Green + Blue lights make white
Cyan + Magenta +yellow inks make black

the Black in Cyan/Magenta/Yellow Black (CMYK) printing is because of impurities in ink and paper make a true black hard to duplicate without this fourth color plate.

Now you understand projected (RGB) and reflected (CMY) color.

I have ruled in my game that the standard crystals for Jedi sabers are indeed Blue and Green. If someone wants something different, they need to find proper crystals (no one has yet asked).

It's not exactly true that there are only red, green, and blue lights. Those are just the three frequencies the human eye are sensitive to. The EM spectrum ranges all over, and some creatures see IR and UV the way we see red and Blue. Mon Cal Jedi could build sabers which appear silver, but are actually Ultraviolet (beyond human visual range), I suppose.

Now for the ultimate in non-canonical... I seem to remember the Kenner action figure of Luke (the original one) had a yellow blade for the saber.

Lucas Carr
15 May 2003, 07:00 AM
Are Mon Cal able to see UV light?

Ardent
15 May 2003, 06:01 PM
Not that I've ever seen mentioned Lucas. It seems to be mostly insectoid species that can see UV, and reptilian species that can see IR. Mon Cal don't fall under either. ;)

Darth_Cassed
15 May 2003, 06:18 PM
Lightsabers....so simple yet so complicated....

I didn't expect the thread to have this much participation.

In any case, I tried making an alien species that sees in different spectrums, but it was so hard for me to comprehend!

SilverBlade
15 May 2003, 06:19 PM
Kamminoins can see UV. They arent insectiod or reptillian. But I don't think Mon Cal's can see UV.

Lucas Carr
16 May 2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by lynnlefey
It's not exactly true that there are only red, green, and blue lights. Those are just the three frequencies the human eye are sensitive to. The EM spectrum ranges all over, and some creatures see IR and UV the way we see red and Blue. Mon Cal Jedi could build sabers which appear silver, but are actually Ultraviolet (beyond human visual range), I suppose.


Are you saying that Mon Cals can see UV light?

lynnlefey
18 June 2003, 03:15 PM
Officially? I don't know. By game stats, it says they have low-light vision, and retain color vision in such conditions. UV is a 'color'. It's just not a color our eyes have receptors for.

Water filters out light in a particular order of wavelength, starting at the red end of the spectrum. So that the deeper water gets, you are left with green, then blue, indigo, and finally only voilet. I've gone scuba diving before and in only 30 feet of water, and things which appear gull gray/green are actually bright red when a flashlight (white light) is shown on them.

If Mon Cal (and other aquatic races) were able to function well in deep water, they would have UV vision. They might not see red, but instead only have green, blue, and UV visual receptors. They might have a yellow color receptor, making them red/green colorblind, but still able to see both. The yellow color receptor replacing the red and green ones is exactly what causes red/green color-blindness in humans.

The D20 system has simplified version from earlier versions (of D&D)which had 'infravision' and 'ultravision' (able to see infrared or ultraviolet).

Starlight, and the light found in deep water are both UV light. Our eyes are adjusted to our environment, and pick up the wavelengths of light that do us the most good. If Mon Cal had no strong need to see red, they might have not evolved that ability, and instead had UV receptors as a more beneficial visual bandwidth. All this assumes that those enormous eyes of theirs don't have BOTH red and UV. Considering the surface area for retinas, I don't think it'd be a problem to have both, but then their brain would need a larger visual processing area. Again, not a big deal, they have big heads. :)

I personally assume all water breathers have UV vision, and that's the way they achieve low-light vision. I also assume land-based creatures with low-light vision just have a greater sensitivity to low levels of light, at the expense of visual accuracy (creating a 'grainy' visual image in lowlight conditions, like cats). This can be done by increasing the chemical sensitivity to light, but causes a lot of misreadings, and hense the graininess.

All this is me being way too technical and watching too many hours of the Discovery Channel.

So, to answer your question 'Do Mon Cals have UV vision? The answer is: In MY game they do.

As for insectoids seeing UV and reptilians seeing IR... Well, bees do see UV. I don't know if Earth reptiles see IR, but I know a lot of fish see UV, as well as a lot of arthropods. Mon Cal are somewhere between fish and arthropod, I'd say.

One last thing. I mentioned in my previous post about the original Kenner action figure of Luke having a yellow saber. Well, the little LEGO action mini of Luke also has a yellow saber. Not canon, but just something of interest.

Tramp
18 June 2003, 03:25 PM
Mon Cals are definately not related to arthropods, and the chances are that theydon't see in the UV spectrum. According to their write-ups in not only the game books, but also the Essential Guides, Mon Cals spend their time mostly on the surface, or near the surface of their world. It's the Quarren who live deeper in the depths of Mon Calamari's oceanic cities.

lynnlefey
18 June 2003, 03:53 PM
Not to get too technical, but Mon Cal have chitinous shells covering their forearms (at least). Chitin is the sole realm of arthropods on Earth. It could be argued that this was more like a turtle shell, but I doubt that, since the turtle shell is more like a specialized spine.

Mon Cal are not 'related' to ANYTHING on earth, but if we had to do a clasification, they exhibit both fishlike, and arthropod-like structures. They could be warmblooded creatures giving birth to live young for all I know.

However, what is NOT in debate is that they are water breathers (which technically could also make them amphibians). Let me ask you... if they spent MOST of their time on land, and only did occasional excursions into shallow waters.... why can they still breath water? Unused, underused, and redundant systems are devolved (see eyeless fish if you don't believe me). If they spent most of their time on land, they should be only air-breathers, with greater lung efficiency/capacity than humans (like Gungans). Further, if they can operate in water for prolonged periods of time, what EXACTLY do you think they're going to SEE at a depth over 25 feet? We're not talking about DEEP water. Red spectrum vision is pretty useless in any aquatic environment. If they see better in such conditions than humans (which is what I've seen stated)... how do you think that's accomplished?

If they spent so much time on land and in shallow waters, their eyesight and respiratory systems would be virtually identical to humans. There are theories that humans evolved as shallow water dwellers, explaining our turned pelvis (also found in sea otters) and air chamber for a nose.

Tramp
18 June 2003, 04:21 PM
Actually, their arms are covered with muscle and skin; they're vertabrates with an internal skeleton, not an external one. If what is on the forearm of the Mon Cal is boney structure, It is more like that of a turtle of crocodile, i.e. hardened scales, not chitin, like on an insect.Secondly, I'm going according to official sources, not just making it up as I go along. Page 98 of the Ultimate Alien Anthology states
The Mon Calamari are land-dwellers who share their Outer Rim homeworld with the Quarren. On page 124 of the Essential Guide to Planets and Moons it says
Mon Calamari is a peaceful water world that has seen more than its share of tragedy. Its vast seas gave birth to two distinct intellegent species: the goggle-eyed Mon Calamari and the tenticle faced Quarren. In spite of their many differences-Mon Calsinhabit the shallows, while the Quarren prefer the ocean depths... Based on this information, Mon Cals most likely don't have UV vision. They do, however, have low-light vision.

lynnlefey
18 June 2003, 05:03 PM
Mon Cal have already shown not to fit any Earth single classification. They DO have chitin on their forearms (at least Ackbar ala Kenner does). Turtle shells only happen from the SPINE, not on forearms. Chitin is found in arthropods, which is MORE than insects, including crabs, mollosks, etc. If the Mon Cal can show properties of both amphibian/reptile/etc... it is not unthinkable, or even unreasonable for it to also have skeletal and exoskeletal features.

You select UAA as your source. Great. In D20, there is only TWO modes of seeing, outside of normal sight. Low-light, and Darkvision.

If you rule out 'magic' as the way darkvision is accomplished, you're left with having to assume a projected (most likely IR) source with the eyes being the receptor... active IR (or some other EM bandwidth, but all need to 'bring their own lightsource'). The cave-dwelling Sullustans developed in a place with NO light. No, latent UV, nothing. Thier system of sight MUST produce something for their eyes to pick up. Otherwise, they'd have echolocation.

As my previous post states, LOWLIGHT vision can be accomplished by several different methods, one of which IS seeing the UV spectrum. another would be passive IR, and a third would be increasing light sensitivity at the cost of clerity. Evolving as aquatic creatures, which of these options seems the most likely? And remember, IR dispurses even quicker in water than red spectrum, making IR worthless.

If you continue to feel a need to debate this... tell me the exact method that the lowlight vision is accomplished that MAKES MORE SENSE than UV vision.

If you want to claim Star Wars is more 'Fiction' than 'Science', in the science fiction genre, or if you feel a need to tell me that it is in fact 'Space Opera', not science fiction at all, then this thread can be truncated before my explanation of projected/reflected light, and we can throw any notion of reality out the window.

Official sources aren't necessarily RIGHT. Look at the Corellian Corvette stats (in RCRB ), the armaments are wrong, regardless of whether you assume they mean Tantive IV or the Corellian Corvette seen in RotJ.

Your two sources are in conflict, one saying MC are land-dwellers, one saying their shallow water dwellers.

Other than quoting two sources (which are written by authors capable of error, which themselves contradict each other), you managed to side-step every valid arguement I put out.

Am I wrong? I absolutely COULD be. Have I shown enough evidence to support my claim? Yes. Have you successfully shot down those arguements? No. Counter the arguements in my previous post successfully, and I'll happily let it drop.

As for 'Making stuff up'... Star Wars IS 'MAKING STUFF UP'. What I wrote was based on science, which is NOT 'making stuff up'. The Mon Cal are "Made Up'. I am simply trying to apply science to fiction... you know... Science Fiction.

Finally, there is this from RCRB: 'Low-Light Vision: Mon Calamari see twice as far as a human in dim light (such as moonlight or underwater)'. What does moonlight and the light available underwater have in common? While both have little IR and visible spectrum, they both still have reasonable levels of UV light. The Gungans would have low-light (UV) vision for the same reason. Kel Dor have it due to the unusual atmosphere in which they were spawned. The Quarren entry in the first printing of RCRB has them with NO special vision properties, which is an obvious mistake.

Tramp
18 June 2003, 06:32 PM
First off, I just checked my old WEG Revised 2nd Ed rule book and the only Special Abilities it mentions are the ability to breath both air and water, bonuses for being in moist environments, and penalties fro being in arid environments. It also says that Mon Cals areland dwellers but that water is essential to their culture (page 214). Second, Armor plating, like found on a variety of reptiles, and some species of fish, don't only grow on the back. Not only that, but if you look at a movie still of Admiral Ackbar, or any other Mon Cal , you'll see that their forearms are covered by nothing more than flesh (probably wiith tiny scales that wouldn't be discernable on film). As far as their lowlight vision goes, tthe most likely candidate is like on most amphibians, sharks, and in crocadillians: the retinas and lenses amplify ambient light taken into the eye . In Crocs and other such animals, this produces a characteristic glow to the Eye at night when light is shined directly on the eye of the animal. Sharks, for example can see quite well at depths greater than 25 feet, and they do not use UV sight to do so (I happen to watch a lot of Discovery Channel and Animal Planet). Finally, Sci-Fi aliens are always based on Earth animals, or combinations therof. even then, they never mix vertabrates with invertabrates, You'll never see a species, with both an internal and external skeleton. It's either one or the other, not both.

Jim Williams
19 June 2003, 05:10 AM
Okay, so Mon Cals have Lowlight Vision which can either be UV or focusing ambient light.

Other than that, I would "caution", in terms of debating extra-galactic life forms, against making any blanket statements about what life would be like in another galaxy. I think Mon Cals could have grown whatever on whichever part part of its body.

I think its also incorrect to say a species could not have an internal and exoskeleton and that SW aliens are always based on animals.

Is someone actually going to tell me a Pa'lowick is derived from an...anteater?!!? And Toong...Weebles maybe? No wait, has to be an animal...Hmmmm.

I also think the picture of the Mon Calin the UAA is rather revealing regarding the chitin/skin debate. What we really need though, is a naked (Rowwwrr) Mon Calamari to see where else this chitin may have grown.

Basically, if you want to explore some of the more interesting aspects of Mon Cal biology, try this on. The Jedi Healer apprentice Cighal, new to Jedi Academy, has a disturbing habit of laying her eggs in front of polite company.

Tramp
19 June 2003, 06:35 AM
Ultraviolet isn't a form of dark vision anyway. Most, if not all of the animals that I know of that see in the Ultra-violet spectrum (Bees, for example) are active during the Daytime not at night. Ultraviolet light is most intense during daylight hours, and as you know, is what causes sunburn. Have any of you gotten a sunburn at night? I doubt it, because there isn't that much UV light at night, The moon doesnot reflect that much of it. UV light reveals certain colors and patterns that would not otherwise be apparent when it objects are exposed to it, that is why floresent paints glow in the presence of a Blacklight, not just in the dark (which would be phospherecent). Also, there is one SW alien that does have UV vision , the Defel, and it does describe how it works, It is not a form of Dark vision or low-light vision. And as far as the MonCals forearms go, Try looking at Photos or screenshots of Admiral Ackbar, or the other Mon Cals from RotJ, it clearly shows that their arms are covered with skin, not chitin.

lynnlefey
19 June 2003, 09:42 AM
Not only that, but if you look at a movie still of Admiral Ackbar, or any other Mon Cal , you'll see that their forearms are covered by nothing more than flesh

Chech HERE (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/admiralackbar/index_movie.html), and click on the image of Ackbar. It helps if you have a photoeditor program so you can adjust light levels, because once you lighten the image, it is clear that the forearms are covered by two large pieces with a seam at the top. Also, the denticulates (toothlike protrusions on the backs of the forearms) arm more thornlike, like what you'd see on the edge of a crab shell or insect leg... very UNLIKE reptilian/dinosaurian denticulates.

HEy, I'll even post the pic here, with light levels adjusted FOR you.


As far as their lowlight vision goes, tthe most likely candidate is like on most amphibians, sharks, and in crocadillians: the retinas and lenses amplify ambient light taken into the eye

This is your first reasonable arguement. Congrats. However, the tapetum lucidum (the reflective layer you're talking about that increases night vision) occurs mostly in predatory animals, and when it DOES occur, the creature's eyes have extremely small pupils in bright light, to shut out incoming light. This is obviously NOT the case with Mon Cal.

Yes, Diurnal birds have UV vision, as well as bees. However, a MASSIVE number of fish do as well. Check HERE (http://www.hawaii.edu/loseylab/ocular50.htm) for examples. These are reef fish living in waters about 10-50m deep...'shallows'. As I described before, water scatters the EM spectrum, filtering it out from red to blue, so that the deeper the water, the less red spectrum you get. In only 25 feet of water, red is mostly gone. in 40 meters of water (the approx max diving depth for Mon Cal according to the official Star Wars website entry... the ONLY thing left would be a little indigo/violet, and UV. And, by the way, the light of the moon is not necessarily the source of the UV at night. It is in fact much more from stars. Full moons just allow more visible spectrum as well.


Finally, Sci-Fi aliens are always based on Earth animals, or combinations therof. even then, they never mix vertabrates with invertabrates, You'll never see a species, with both an internal and external skeleton. It's either one or the other, not both.

Of all the arguements you've made in this thread, this one has been the most dead wrong. However, I must admit it took me a minute to come up with a reasonable answer. And AS my answer, I submit the following STAR WARS critters...

The Acklay (http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/acklay/bts.html)

The Colo Clawfish (http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/coloclawfish/bts.html)

The Opee Sea Killer (http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/opeeseakiller/bts.html)

Each of the links leads to the stuff on the Official Star Wars website, where the design of the creature is discussed, and where it's clearly stated that the designers considered them crossbreeds of vertibrates and invertibrates.

lynnlefey
19 June 2003, 09:45 AM
Crud... I hit the submit button instead of the browse button to add a pic...

Here's the lightened-up version of Ackbar...

By the way, I NEVER stated that UV vision was Darkvision. I stated that Darkvision had to be accomplished with a projected lightsource. UV visoin would qualify (in the D20 system) as low-light vision (meaning it does NOT work in the absense of all light).

The way UV vision was treated in earlier versions of the D&D game was (in my opinion) very much off the mark. That system (which had IR Vision and UV Vision) has been modified. Those two things are gone. What's replaced it are Darkvision, and Low-Light vision. That's as far as the description in the D20 system EVER goes. Darkvision means that it works in absolute darkness (no light of any kind available). Low-Light vision only makes it easier to see in dark conditions. This could be IR vision (picking up body heat, for instance), enhanced light sensitivity, or UV vision. The D20 system does not differentiate.

Tramp... you have made a valliant effort to stick to your assertion that Mon Cal don't have UV. In your game, you have the right to judge such things. HOWEVER, I have supported my claims fairly and realistically. Why you can't accept the POSSIBILITY of Mon Cals having UV is rather beyond me. But hey, to each their own.

By the way... I had great fun reading up on Shark Eyes and Cat eyes last night in regards to this post. If nothing else, you are keeping me thinking. :)

I WOULD ask that if you wish to continue this debate, we move it to General Discussion under something like 'Mon Cal Physiology' or something, as none of this really has ANYTHING to do with Lightsaber colors.

Tramp
19 June 2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by lynnlefey






This is your first reasonable arguement. Congrats. However, the tapetum lucidum (the reflective layer you're talking about that increases night vision) occurs mostly in predatory animals, and when it DOES occur, the creature's eyes have extremely small pupils in bright light, to shut out incoming light. This is obviously NOT the case with Mon Cal.

Yes, Diurnal birds have UV vision, as well as bees. However, a MASSIVE number of fish do as well. Check HERE (http://www.hawaii.edu/loseylab/ocular50.htm) for examples. These are reef fish living in waters about 10-50m deep...'shallows'. As I described before, water scatters the EM spectrum, filtering it out from red to blue, so that the deeper the water, the less red spectrum you get. In only 25 feet of water, red is mostly gone. in 40 meters of water (the approx max diving depth for Mon Cal according to the official Star Wars website entry... the ONLY thing left would be a little indigo/violet, and UV. And, by the way, the light of the moon is not necessarily the source of the UV at night. It is in fact much more from stars. Full moons just allow more visible spectrum as well.


The only prob

Snowtiger
19 June 2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Lucas Carr
I don't believe that earth physics, as we know them today anyway, can explain how lightsabers work. Thus all I really care about in this aspect is that it works. The true mechanics aren't interesting to me.

I also believe that Lucas had a reason to pick blue, green, and red for his lightsabers. But as stories go, the author may have one reason, but there have to be a valid in story reason to why it is that way too.

In this case it is the crystals. Or that is the official rules anyway.

Now I've heard three "in story" reasons to why Windu's lightsaber was purple. He found some rare crystals that produced that color. The crystals came from a previous era when they were more prevalent. And he made them.

If the lightsaber blade is the force, it must have been imbued into the lightsaber itself or otherwise non-force user couldn't use the lilghtsaber and from Qui-Gon's comments in TPM, non-force users can use the lightsaber. Then we have the Ysalimary (don't remember the spelling) that would have wrecked havoc with lightsabers a long time ago if they worked this way.

A lightsaber's blade is just an energy beam, focused by the Force-imbued crystals and the energy is created by an emitter in the hilt of a lightsaber, fed by a battery through internal electronics, I have proof of it, in the Star Wars Encyclopedia(by Stephen J. Sansweet), it says:

"Seemingly simple in design, a lightsaber has a handle of about twenty-four to thirty centimeters long that is usually hung from a belt. Inside are a battery and multifaceted (Adegan) chrystals or jewels (usually one to three) that focus the energy from the power source and release it through a concave disk atop the handle, where it appears in a tight and steady colored beam of light and energy about a meter long. When they are activated lightsabers hum with their coursing energy."

and:

"A saber with a single jewel(or chrystal) has fixed amplitude and blade length. Those with multiple jewels can alter their amplitude and change the light blade's length by rotating an exterior control to vary the distance between the (focusing) jewels. The emitted beam arcs back from its positively charged continuous energy lens to a negatively charged high-energy flux aperture set in the disk atop the handle. The power amplitude determines the point at which the beam arcs back, setting the blade's length."

So The blade must be just energy coursing from the positive end of the battery through te inner workings and the emitter setup, the focusing lenses(the crystals), about a meter in the ionized air above the emitters and arcing back into a receiver disk returning through te inner workings into the battery's negative end, just like anything else that is battery powered.

As for the colors, I think that the colors of the crystals used will dictate the color of the blade, and the Force-imbuing is just a form of refining the chrystals so they operate flawlessly in any occasion.

And by the way, the creature which negates the Force around it, is an Ysalamiri. :)

Reverend Strone
19 June 2003, 03:01 PM
(Puts on his Moderator hat)-

Thank you Snowtiger for bringing this discussion back on topic.

With respects to the Mon Cal/UV discussion, as interesting as it is, I would suggest you guys either take it up in PMs or do as was suggested in a post above and start up another thread.

If you choose to do the latter may I also suggest toning down the argumentative tone a little. It's not necessary to be quite as confrontational as some of these posts appear to be becoming and it's the surest way to get a thread (on what is otherwise a fascinating topic) closed down. Just play nice folks.

Thanks guys.

Tramp
23 June 2003, 07:44 PM
Not a Problem Rev. Back to the subject at hand though, I was reading the AotC Visual Dictionary a few days ago, and while I didn't find the passage about how Mace got his crystals (I remember reading it somewhere but can't seem to find the source anymore) I did find something else that proves that he does indeed use crystals in his Lightsaber. If you look at the photo of his lightsaber, it has various pointers with descriptions of the different parts of the saber. One of the areas pointed out, about halfway down the saber's handle, is the crystal chamber. I think that just about sums up that debate. Mace's lightsaber does use crystals, just like any other lightsaber does.

Lucas Carr
26 June 2003, 04:38 PM
From what I have heard, don't know where I picked it up, or when for that matter. The new book about Mace (was it Shatterpoint?) tells how he got the crystals. Or perhaps I just mix things up in my head...:?

lynnlefey
13 July 2003, 09:11 PM
An update.

I recently finished 'I, Jedi', and in it Corran Horn carries his grandfather's lightsaber, which is apparently silver, and later encounters a group of Jensaarai (sp?) carrying red, orange, yellow, and green sabers.

The saber Corran builds for himself uses some gem not known to our world (so I have no idea what color it is), an emerald, and a diamond. While it didn't state specifically what color the blade was in the book, the cover art shows it as green.

Tramp
17 July 2003, 06:21 PM
Corran used a Durindfire gem as his continuous energy lense.

Crownsilver
19 July 2003, 12:42 AM
The diamond was also a fake.

Faraer
19 July 2003, 03:28 AM
Shatterpoint doesn't say where Mace got his lightsaber crystals. The only account of that is the Star Wars Tales story "Stones" which Shatterpoint seems to contradict and so which we might assume is non-continuity.

Tramp
19 July 2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by lynnlefey
An update.

I recently finished 'I, Jedi', and in it Corran Horn carries his grandfather's lightsaber, which is apparently silver, and later encounters a group of Jensaarai (sp?) carrying red, orange, yellow, and green sabers.

The saber Corran builds for himself uses some gem not known to our world (so I have no idea what color it is), an emerald, and a diamond. While it didn't state specifically what color the blade was in the book, the cover art shows it as green.

The lightsaber Corran is holding on the cover is the one originally belonging to his grandfather. the handle of Corran's would look more like the what page 210 of the RCRB (or 167 of the OCRB) show as the handle of a speeder bike, and had a silver blade, with a slight greenish tint, when the emerald is in possition. When the diamond is in place (the real one he replaced the fake with some time after the end of the book) creates a violet tint to the blade. The silver color comes from the durindfire gem used as his Continuous energy lense, while the green and violet tints to that color come from the emerald and Diamond respectively.

Errin Orwain
20 July 2003, 05:10 PM
the use of different crystals can change the color of a lightsaber. Mace could have quested for rare crystals. A player in a hurry could use a fusion furnace to create crystals to give a lightsaber any color, but I assume such a practice would be frowned upon by the Jedi councel. There is nothing preventing a Rebellion or NJO era player from doing this however.

Sabermaster
21 July 2003, 01:57 AM
In Knight's of the Old Republic it's say's that Blue, and Yellow Crystal's grow closer to the surface of a Crystal world, while green grow's a bit deeper down, and apparently Purple grows even deeper down, and is fairly rare, and only the most skilled and dedicated Jedi are able to make there way down to retrieve them. It's an idea I really like. But I too have also read that Mace grew his using the same techiniques as the Sith, Jiana Solo did the same as well producing a Purple Saber, so it's also possiable Mace used a similiar technique. Either works well, and I like the both idea's. He either went on a quest deep into a crystal planet to retrieve one. Or grew one.

Tramp
21 July 2003, 07:29 PM
Sabermaster, are you referring to the new game, or the TOTJ series? I'm guessing the game because I've not seen that mentioned in the comic books. Please clarify.:?

Sabermaster
21 July 2003, 11:45 PM
The game.

Errin Orwain
26 July 2003, 08:26 AM
I will quote from PotJ page 55

"Skywalker even revived the ancient tradition of imbuing commonly availible crystals with force energies and using them in lightsabers. His students, following this procedure, crafted their lightsabers in a wide variety of colors."

Mace Windu, or any other Jedi of the Old Republic for that matter, could take the time to do the research on this procedure could make a lightsaber any color they choose.

As far as blade colors being determined by rank within the Jedi Order, I highly doubt it. After all if that were the case, who more than Yoda should be Honored with the Purple Blade?:yoda:

Errin Orwain
26 July 2003, 11:22 AM
Are you over the age of twelve? If so why not try to come up with some posts that are accually relevent to the game, and not an example of child-like humor.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 06:00 PM
I would say that there must be crystals out there that would make different color lightsabers. Blue and green might be the most common, but in the Arena Battle in AotC I saw one or two Jedi weilding yellow lightsabers, you have to look real close and run the DVD on slo-mo but they are there. And as some people will tell you, if it is in the movies it is absolutely cannon. Mace must have found a rare crystal.

Darth_Cassed
16 August 2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain

"Skywalker even revived the ancient tradition of imbuing commonly availible crystals with force energies and using them in lightsabers. His students, following this procedure, crafted their lightsabers in a wide variety of colors."

This does point to people getting to choose their colors, however it has no direct evidence. "Crafted their lightsabers in a wide variety of colors" may not mean they imbued their lightsabers with whatever color they want, it may just mean they imbued a normal crystal of that color so that it works in a lightsaber and is more vibrant. Not just any crystal will work, it has to be crafted for the lightsaber, this may just mean they imbue it to work in theirs with a more vibrant color of what the crystal naturally is. Maybe in the Ancient days, a special crystal was needed, a long and arduous journey. However a special crystal planet was found, with less special crystals, but with their techniques they could work.

The truth is no one knows, and no one is supposed to know. Kinda ruins the mystery doesn't it? A book is never closed if a chapter is left unanswered. Write your own story, make your own theories, it can't be wrong.

Tramp
16 August 2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Darth_Cassed


This does point to people getting to choose their colors, however it has no direct evidence. "Crafted their lightsabers in a wide variety of colors" may not mean they imbued their lightsabers with whatever color they want, it may just mean they imbued a normal crystal of that color so that it works in a lightsaber and is more vibrant. Not just any crystal will work, it has to be crafted for the lightsaber, this may just mean they imbue it to work in theirs with a more vibrant color of what the crystal naturally is. Maybe in the Ancient days, a special crystal was needed, a long and arduous journey. However a special crystal planet was found, with less special crystals, but with their techniques they could work.

The truth is no one knows, and no one is supposed to know. Kinda ruins the mystery doesn't it? A book is never closed if a chapter is left unanswered. Write your own story, make your own theories, it can't be wrong.

Based on official information, imbuing the crystal has absolutely no effect on the color of the blade. The color is strictly a product of the nature of the crystal, nothing more. That is straight from the Official site.

Darth_Cassed
16 August 2003, 08:54 PM
Well to me the SWRPG is what you want it to be. So it's official imbueing has no affect. If you don't like it ::toss:: straight out the window. The truth is, why use official material and timelines, when the SWRPG is not official in the first place? This thread has been discussed, but it is not necessary to follow official rules. It says so in it's books, that you don't have to follow the rules, make your own timelines, make your own rules. It's all in the GM's decision.

So yes, that is official, and it is what books, comics, and the like will follow.

You game, your universe, your fun.

Errin Orwain
16 August 2003, 09:06 PM
Okay IMHO imbuing does not change the color of a lightsaber in and of itself. However, it would allow a Jedi to select crystals of a specific color or combination of crystals to create virtually any color in the visible spectrum, then the Jedi imbues the otherwise normal crystal(s) and presto! A lightsaber in any color you choose

Tramp
12 September 2003, 07:31 PM
To anyone who's interested, I've got the lightsaber of my character Korath on SWAG. Take a look here (http://swagonline.net/view.php?photo_id=1682&screen=0&action=&keyword=&date=Week&type=search)

Errin Orwain
12 September 2003, 07:41 PM
Where did you get the idea for a tri-phase lightsaber. I have not seen them in any of the books I have read. I think it is a neat idea reguardless.

Tramp
12 September 2003, 08:13 PM
Well, if you've read the Databank write-up on lightsabers,in the official site, ones with multiple crystals can have varying lengths; and in the comic adaption of Splinters of the Mind's Eye Luke can adjust the lenght of his father's old lightsaber to a very short length. I'd decided back in'95, when I first created Korath for the D6 system to have his lightsaber have variable length using Mephite crystals out of the Tales of the Jedi Companion. With the d20 system, I had to recreate that lightsaber using this site's Netguide to lightsabers Since the original had three crystals in the D6 system; when recreated for D20 using the Net Guide, it became a tri-phase with three distinct lengths. Korath still suffers the penalty for using the increased length, but with his Lightsaber Attack Bonus, it's not that big of a deal. He doesn't use the increased length that much anyway, but it's nice to have.:D What do you think of the color? there are a couple of pics of Korath that show the lightsaber's color a little better on SWAG as well.here (http://swagonline.net/view.php?photo_id=1500&screen=0&action=search&keyword=Korath+Lorren&date=&type=search) and here (http://swagonline.net/view.php?photo_id=1499&screen=0&action=search&keyword=Korath+Lorren&date=&type=search)

Errin Orwain
12 September 2003, 08:20 PM
Ahh. I think the design itself is cool. I always thought that lightsabers could be shortened due to a scene in Ep IV when Obi-Wan shortens his close to him body.

Tramp
12 September 2003, 08:34 PM
I alsways thought it was neat too. Just the fact that even early editions od the game, and the official site stated that lightsabers usually had between one and three crystals, with multiple crystals allowing variable blade-length. I decided for the max number of crystals. Instead of turning a knob or dial to change the length, you simply push one of the two black buttons on the top of the handle, behind the guard. The forward one lengthens the blade, while the one behind that, shortens it. The handle itself I patterned after the lightsabers from the ancient Old Republic, but actually used a Hasbro Darth Vader lightsaber as the base model, and modified it extensively. For the color, I wnted the core to be a pure color, not white, I wanted the effect of light as it would shine through red wine.

Errin Orwain
12 September 2003, 08:55 PM
Cool. Do you think thata charicter could use a dual or tri phase [ all with various shortened settings] without a seperate feat?

Tramp
12 September 2003, 09:00 PM
For the shortened length, I'd say no. However for the increased length, that's already been established that you do need a seperate feat or suffer the -4 penalty. However, like I said, for my character, Korath, it's not a big deal since his attack bonus is so high, and he rarely uses the 3m length anyway.

Errin Orwain
15 September 2003, 02:21 PM
in the EU comics T'ra Saa, a Neti Jedi Master serving as guaredian of Kiffex and Kiffu, weilds a yellow bladed lightsaber.

Tramp
15 September 2003, 03:11 PM
And considering the Life-spans of Neti, she probably built her lightsaber before the Battle of Ruusan.

Errin Orwain
16 September 2003, 06:45 PM
She also might know where to find more crystals like the ones she used in her lightsaber.

Tramp
16 September 2003, 06:47 PM
Maaaaaayyyyyvbeeeee...

Darth_Cassed
20 September 2003, 09:28 PM
Ok Ok let's keep it on topic here people....

In any case, I'd say yes, you need seperate feats for different lengths. While the weight will not differ, the size will. The Jedi must take time to adjust to the length of his lightsaber, even more important with different lengths. He must train himself to use different lengths, switching between the two if necessary.

A good question, however not the topic :P. Let's stick to the ole Lightsaber Colors.

Kordeth
21 September 2003, 11:34 AM
Just to further muddy the waters, originally (we're talking back when the original trilogy was being made), lightsabers were all going to be blue or red--George's equivalent of the cowboys in white hats and black hats. When RotJ was being filmed, however, ILM discovered that the blue blade was essentially invisible against the bright blue sky of the Yuma Desert, where the sail barge scenes were filmed. So the only reason green lightsabers even exist is because of the limitations of special effects technology!

As far as an in-universe logic, I really don't think there is one, any more than there was a secret code among cowboys that the good guys would wear white hats and the bad guys would wear black ones. It's just a cinematic storytelling device to give the audience a quick, visual cue about a character on screen.

On a related note, why haven't there been any 9 page long posts about why blasters are different colors? :p

Ardent
21 September 2003, 11:58 AM
Actually, just for those of you who don't know, Jedi Academy allows five colors for candidates: blue, green, orange, purple and yellow. Dark siders, of course, use red sabers.

Hopefully this isn't a spoiler for anyone. ;)

Errin Orwain
22 September 2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
Actually, just for those of you who don't know, Jedi Academy allows five colors for candidates: blue, green, orange, purple and yellow. Dark siders, of course, use red sabers.

So did Luke make exemptions for Leias' Red Saber and Corran Horns' Silver one? Okay Corran made his without Skywalkers supervision, but Luke did later approve of his design.

Spicemonger3
22 September 2003, 09:09 AM
No Errin he means the new PC game Jedi Academy allows those colors as your characters color.

Errin Orwain
22 September 2003, 09:32 AM
I haven't had a chance to buy that yet. My wife and I just had our first baby and my gaming money has been redirected it a diaper fund:?

Kordeth
22 September 2003, 02:51 PM
Well, IMHO, you're better off spending the money on diapers anyways--that game was a marked backslide from Jedi Knight II. The new saber styles and moves were nice, but I, for one, thought the plot was kind of hokey (even for a game about hokey religions and ancient weapons), and the level design was uninteresting and often illogical (why, exactly, do Imperial officers seem to enjoy staring at blank walls next to doors when they have no reason to suspect a Jedi to ambush?) That, and the main character's "Dark Side" voice (for the male, at least) sounded like a refugee from the WWF.

Ardent
22 September 2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Kordeth
Well, IMHO, you're better off spending the money on diapers anyways--that game was a marked backslide from Jedi Knight II. The new saber styles and moves were nice, but I, for one, thought the plot was kind of hokey (even for a game about hokey religions and ancient weapons), and the level design was uninteresting and often illogical (why, exactly, do Imperial officers seem to enjoy staring at blank walls next to doors when they have no reason to suspect a Jedi to ambush?) That, and the main character's "Dark Side" voice (for the male, at least) sounded like a refugee from the WWF.

The plot was decent, although it in no way slides into the accepted Star Wars universe. But it's considered canon. Go figure.

The backslide in terms of gameplay is mostly illusionary. A lot of the old "skill" moves got removed in favor of actual skill moves. But this is totally off-topic (which is becoming problematic with this thread).

Tramp
23 September 2003, 09:54 PM
I think about the only colors you'll never see anywhere in the Saga, either the movies or EU, is black and invisible, blades. A Ultraviolet"Blacklight" blade, would actually glow a cold violet, like an actual blacklight, not actually black in color, and an invisible blade just doesn't cut it, since the lightsaber lumineces, so there'd be a visibe blade. Thus I'd never allow someone to use a true "black bladed" lightascer, or an invisible bladed one.:rolleyes:

thetophus
29 September 2003, 10:43 PM
Just in case anyone is interested, I have rules based on KoTOR for modifiying a lightsaber to have different crystal colors. From what I understand is that the Jedi Order mainly keeps to blue and green to distinguish a Jedi's rank and/or class. Guardians carry green blades and Consulars carry blue, while a high-ranking Jedi like Windu might have a different color. For example, I think Adi Gallea for a while had a deep crimson blade, but I could be wrong. Windu's was purple because the crystal he used turned out to be purple. I don't think Jedi were required to use either blue or green, however. If you recall, in episode IV Ben Kenobi's saber is white, while the saber he gives Liuke that once belonged to Anakin is a teal color. I'm sure that the production artist were probably going for blue and lack of technology caused the teal color, but I hope that Lucas is going to try to match the color that we see in ANH and ESB.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the rules I have, let me know and I'll e-mail 'em to you. They aren't a deviation from the current rules, more like an expansion.

Faraer
30 September 2003, 09:43 AM
There's no in-universe meaning distinction between blue and green lightsabers; and bear in mind that Rise of the Empire era Jedi who have been depicted with technicoloured blades are corrected to blue or green when they appear in current sources.

Ardent
30 September 2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Faraer
There's no in-universe meaning distinction between blue and green lightsabers; and bear in mind that Rise of the Empire era Jedi who have been depicted with technicoloured blades are corrected to blue or green when they appear in current sources.

Seriously, there's a reasonable limit to imposing false strictures on imagination...GL has made it clear why he represents Jedi the way he does (and I can certainly respect that), but he hasn't made any statements about whether all Jedi should be that way. In fact, if he's made any statement at all, it's that exceptions ought to be made (Mace Windu) for dramatic effect.

I think it's safe to say that more "exceptions" may become the norm, both as your travel further back and further forward.

Reverend Strone
30 September 2003, 02:52 PM
...I think Adi Gallea for a while had a deep crimson blade...

In so far as I'm aware, that was something that began with the Ep 1 action figure. Likewise, they gave Ki Adi Mundi a purple one and Plo Koon a yellow one. These were the result of speculation on the part of the toymakers and were later corrected for subsequent releases.

Errin Orwain
30 September 2003, 06:18 PM
toys can indeed be wrong. take the original figure for Obi-Wan made for the 1977 release of Star Wars ANH that had a yellow lightsaber even though Kenobi has never been seen using a yellow bladed lightsaber in any of the movies or EU publications that I know of.

Tramp
30 September 2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain
toys can indeed be wrong. take the original figure for Obi-Wan made for the 1977 release of Star Wars ANH that had a yellow lightsaber even though Kenobi has never been seen using a yellow bladed lightsaber in any of the movies or EU publications that I know of.

Actually, it was the Luke figure that had the yellow blade not Ben.

Errin Orwain
30 September 2003, 06:37 PM
Was it Luke? It could have been...I knew it was one of them but it has been sooooo long since I owned those toys...I could put my kid through an Ivy League University if I still had my old toys in the boxes!!!

thetophus
2 October 2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Faraer
There's no in-universe meaning distinction between blue and green lightsabers; and bear in mind that Rise of the Empire era Jedi who have been depicted with technicoloured blades are corrected to blue or green when they appear in current sources.

I was speaking of the distinction between the two Jedi classes in a traditional sense. You are right that there is nothing in the movies themselves stating which kinds of Jedi used what colors of blades, however, there is a lot of literture out there, even one or two official books, that have mentioned the old tradition of Consulars using blue and Guardians using green. In the movie Obi-Wan has a blue blade and as far as I know he's a Guardian, which would make my own point moot. First and foremost the color of the saber depends on the crystal the Jedi uses. And a Jedi would choose a blade that fits their combat style. There are 7 fighting styles, so that leaves a lot of room for what kind of crystal they use and also leaves a lot of room for different colors. Teal, purple, and yellow are very rare, but as we see in Mace Windu's case it can indeed be used.

Faraer
3 October 2003, 05:36 AM
"there is a lot of literture out there, even one or two official books, that have mentioned the old tradition of Consulars using blue and Guardians using green"

What official books? (They'd have to be SWRPG books, since the consular/guardian distinction only exists in the RPG.)

Errin Orwain
3 October 2003, 06:58 PM
gotta point there...

Solo666
4 October 2003, 08:27 AM
I read somewhere about a lightsaber with like 20 colors at once- I think it was Gantoris, from Dark Apprentice
How is this possible?
And why do Luke's students have access to so many different colors?

Solo666
4 October 2003, 08:31 AM
I posted this twice so I'm editing it to say:

Didn't some Jedi pass their best sabers down to their Padawans? Couldn't this have happened ot Windu?

Tramp
4 October 2003, 09:55 AM
Mace Windu made his lightsaber, it wasn't passed down to him. As far as Luke's students go, they have access to a much broader range of gems and crystals than the Jedi of the RotE era. They've used everything from diamonds, emralds, Rainbow gems from Gallenor, Corusca gems, synthesized gems,you name it. Other than Mace, most of the Jedi from the time of the Clone Wars used crystals from the planet Ilum exclusively, and these crystals only produced blue or green blades. During the time of the Great Sith war, the Jedi also had a broader selection of Adegan crystals, including ones from Ossus itself. These also produced a broader range of colors.

Ardent
4 October 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Tramp
Mace Windu made his lightsaber, it wasn't passed down to him. As far as Luke's students go, they have access to a much broader range of gems and crystals than the Jedi of the RotE era. They've used everything from diamonds, emralds, Rainbow gems from Gallenor, Corusca gems, synthesized gems,you name it. Other than Mace, most of the Jedi from the time of the Clone Wars used crystals from the planet Ilum exclusively, and these crystals only produced blue or green blades. During the time of the Great Sith war, the Jedi also had a broader selection of Adegan crystals, including ones from Ossus itself. These also produced a broader range of colors.

I think it's a fair assumption that the blue/green constraint of the RotE Jedi may not have been emplaced in the TotJ Jedi Order. It's pretty clear that Luke's students don't have the benefit of any particular source of natural crystals, and thus have to use the crystals at their disposal to construct a lightsaber.

In general, it's a fair assumption that the primary focusing crystal determines the majority of the blade's color composition. For instance, if you constructed a lightsaber and used a ruby as the primary focus and two yellow diamonds as secondary focus crystals, you'd probably have an orange-bladed lightsaber. Similarly, if your lightsaber employs only a diamond as its focus it would have a silver or silver-blue blade.

The old net.guide to lightsabers is a fair guide, but the issue probably deserves deeper delving.

Tramp
4 October 2003, 01:37 PM
It's not really an assumption. we know, based upon LFL's official stance, that the crystal determines the color of the blade, we also know that TotJ era jedi had more colors available. Sylvar has been pictured with a yellow blade, and later a magenta one; Tot Doneeta with a magenta one in a cover painting by Dave Dorman, and both a green and later a blue blade; Ulic has had green, blue, and yellow blades. as far as the color a diamond produces, Corran Horn uses one in his dual-phase lightsaber, along with an emerald. When he switches the emerald out for the diamond the blade changes color from silvery green to purple. Even though the diamond itself is not that color., it makes a purple blade, though that might be because of certain impuities within that particular diamond.

Ardent
4 October 2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Tramp
It's not really an assumption. we know, based upon LFL's official stance, that the crystal determines the color of the blade, we also know that TotJ era jedi had more colors available. Sylvar has been pictured with a yellow blade, and later a magenta one; Tot Doneeta with a magenta one in a cover painting by Dave Dorman, and both a green and later a blue blade; Ulic has had green, blue, and yellow blades. as far as the color a diamond produces, Corran Horn uses one in his dual-phase lightsaber, along with an emerald. When he switches the emerald out for the diamond the blade changes color from silvery green to purple. Even though the diamond itself is not that color., it makes a purple blade, though that might be because of certain impuities within that particular diamond.

My assumption was in regards to multi-crystal blades that aren't necessary multi-phasic. I think Corran's lightsaber had the Star Wars equivalent of a cubic zirconium in it originally, which may explain the purplish blade.

Tramp
4 October 2003, 06:02 PM
Nope, the purple blade when extended is from the natural diamond he used to replace the Kubas Xurconia. The first time tha color of the extended blade is mentioned is in the Dark Tide duology. It was never mentioned in I, Jedi . As far as multi-crystal blades go, they're all multi-length, though not necessarily working the same as Corran's. That was mentioned in several of the old WEG books: the blade of a lightsaber with multiple crystals can be adjusted in length.

Errin Orwain
4 October 2003, 06:36 PM
I remember reading somewhere that Luke Skywalkers' students had access to the crystals discovered in the ruins of the Jedi Library on Ossus, that would give them a wider range of colors.

Darth_Cassed
4 October 2003, 06:50 PM
I would believe that his students would only have access to such crystals during the New Republic Era, as the did not visit Ossus till after the fall of the Empire. Unless there's a visit in there I don't know about......

Ardent
4 October 2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Darth_Cassed
I would believe that his students would only have access to such crystals during the New Republic Era, as the did not visit Ossus till after the fall of the Empire. Unless there's a visit in there I don't know about......

The Praxeum was founded at the beginning of the NR era, if I'm remembering the division point correctly.

Tramp
4 October 2003, 09:02 PM
The Praxium was founded after the final death of the Emperor in Empire's End , the last chapter of the entire Dark Empire saga. Luke re-discovered the planet Ossus in Dark Empire II , so yes, the students of the Jedi Academy would have had access to whatever crystals, and other relics, they could find on Ossus, with the approval of the Ysanna people.

Errin Orwain
7 October 2003, 06:47 PM
Exactly right. I also belive the NR/NJO Era could become more interesting, from a Jedi perspective, due to the "Ossus crystals" if a GM adopts the rules in Moridins' ".netGuide to Lightsaber Counstruction" that gives different damage ranges for different crystals [as I intend to]...heh heh heh!

Tramp
7 October 2003, 06:52 PM
I use the Net Guide for Korath's tri-phase lightsaber. It uses three Mephite Crystals. The color was determined lback in my D6 days before the Net Guide.

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:52 PM
I still don't see how Gantoris wouldn't have ended up with just a brown or white saber. Multiple colors can be seen coming from the crystal, but they would have blended becoming the blade. Unless Gantoris simply sees ultraviolet light?

Tramp
7 October 2003, 06:57 PM
His blade is mostly violet, with a white core, but between those colors it goes through the entire spectrum in a tight rainbow, going from the core outward to the corona.

JediJester
9 October 2003, 09:42 AM
I know this point has been brought up before, but Luke's students used whatever crystals they had on hand. In the YJK book "Lightsabers', Jaina, Jacen, Lowbacca, and Tenel Ka all made their lightsabers from gems and crystals they scrounged up from different sources. I dug out my copy of the book and it says that Jaina made her crystal in a furnace, Jasen used a Corusca gem that he'd snagged at Lando's GemDiver Station, Lowbacca used the focusing lens and enhancement jewel from a high-res projection system, and Tenel Ka used first a gem she retrieved from a volcano on Yavin and then used gems from her Hapan tiara for her replacement saber. All of them had different colored blades due to this.

Given this, one could probably assume that just about any type of gem or crystaline substance can by used to build a lightsaber. Don't ask me why the Jedi Order in the time of the Old Republic prefered gems from one source or another. Who knows?

But since the color of the blade depends upon the crystal used and just about any type of crystal can be used (it seems), then it stands to reason that lightsaber blades can be just about every color imaginable. Personally, I like the thought of a blacklight blade (a deep purple color that makes stuff glow irradescent :P )

Solo666
9 October 2003, 06:41 PM
Is there a glasslike crystal that could produce a clear blade? Add a noise dampener=Jedi that is widely believed to be a god except by a close circle of friends. Would that work or would it be the color of the light souce?

Tramp
9 October 2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Solo666
Is there a glasslike crystal that could produce a clear blade? Add a noise dampener=Jedi that is widely believed to be a god except by a close circle of friends. Would that work or would it be the color of the light souce?

No, if anything, it would produce a white blade, though even this is not necessarily the case. Corran Horn has a diamond in his, along wioth the emerald, and when the diamond is in position, the blade is purple in color, though this could be due to certain impurities in the gem. The diamond he uses replaced the fake one that failed in I. Jedi .

Solo666
9 October 2003, 06:55 PM
Something must be able to make it clear, maybe a crystal that absorbs all light and lets other forms of energy (such as thermal and kinetic) pass through, forming a clear, possibly silent blade? I know the physics are differnet, but still...

Tramp
9 October 2003, 07:01 PM
Nope. Part of what makes up a lightsaber is that it gives off light. It's a plasma arc, for all intents and purposes and luminecses. the purest color you'd get is a white blade. you'll never get an invisible one. You really wouldn't want one anyway because it would be more dangerous to yourself than to your targets.

Solo666
9 October 2003, 07:07 PM
You really wouldn't want one anyway because it would be more dangerous to yourself than to your targets.
A Jedi has a Force link w/ his/her saber, so they would know if it was coming near them
However, no light-sider would want it for the danger it poses toward their allies in a fight

Tramp
9 October 2003, 07:11 PM
It's still easy to misjudge where the blade is, especially if there is no sound either. You wouldn't even be able to tell if the thing was working, much less where the blade was.

Solo666
9 October 2003, 07:14 PM
Actually if it worked the andle would vibrate and you could feel heat if you were near the blade. If you know your saber, tested etc., you will know whee the blade is

Tramp
9 October 2003, 07:22 PM
First off, a lightsaber blade doesn't radiate much heat, if any, until you're touching the blade itself. And vibration is a bad thing. It means that the compoinents are out of alignment and the weapon is going to fail. Once again, not good. It's a moot point because a lightsaber gets its name from the fact that the blade emits visible light, it won't form an invisible blade.:rolleyes:

Ardent
9 October 2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Solo666
Is there a glasslike crystal that could produce a clear blade? Add a noise dampener=Jedi that is widely believed to be a god except by a close circle of friends. Would that work or would it be the color of the light souce?

Well, a transparent crystal would still have a prismatic effect, creating something similar to Gantoris' blade.

Tramp
9 October 2003, 07:27 PM
That is another possibility. Either way, you won't get an invisible one.

Zanus
9 October 2003, 08:56 PM
I'd have to say my perception on lightsabers is based on how they where described in 'I, Jedi'

I could see how in the old republic the order at some point would do a sort of standardizaiton, that could be waived from with proper counciling with master jedi. The new order would have lost sight of this, and simply used what was on hand, varoius colored corseca gems on Yavin IV.

Orange is good

Solo666
10 October 2003, 07:27 AM
To produce energy it must be vibratin a little bit. The noise it gives out is vibration. Remember, noise s only vibration until it reaches an ear-drum that understands it and has a brain attached to it. O, wait, the diffeent laws of physics again...

Tramp
10 October 2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Solo666
To produce energy it must be vibratin a little bit. The noise it gives out is vibration. Remember, noise s only vibration until it reaches an ear-drum that understands it and has a brain attached to it. O, wait, the diffeent laws of physics again...

The noticable vibration that you were talking about, though, would be a sign of instability in the components, not normal resonation. That is the difference. Read YJK: Lightsabers , it describes in vivid detail, a lightsaber failing, including the feeling of the components vibrating just before the blade goes out, ans later exploding spectacularly.

Solo666
10 October 2003, 10:02 AM
Its like a car, an observant user will feel a vibration when its on

BrianDavion
10 October 2003, 10:09 AM
umm no it's NOT like a car. a car is powered by a big honking ICE. a lightsabre is powered by what amounts to a battery. Does your flashlight vibrate when it's on?

Tramp
10 October 2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Solo666
Its like a car, an observant user will feel a vibration when its on

Not likely. A lightsaber is infinately more finely tuned than any car, and if there is noticable vibrations that can be felt , there's a problem. A quartz crystal in a watch resonates, but we can't feel it. The same is true for a lightsaber, the crystals resonate, but not physically vibrate to the degree that it can be felt. If they do, then there is a malfunction in the weapon, and it's about to fail catastrophically.

Solo666
10 October 2003, 10:18 AM
Does your flashlight vibrate when it's on?
Does my flashlight make a loud humming noise?

Tramp
10 October 2003, 10:23 AM
No, but that's becasue it doesn't use resonating crystals to create the beam, a lightsaber does. The point being made is that a lightsaber does not physically vibrate. The crystalls resonate , creating an audible hum, but you don't actually feel a vibration. If you do, then there is something wrong in the alignment of the components, or some other major flaw, and the weapon is going to fail.

Solo666
10 October 2003, 10:34 AM
All lightsabers are custom-made, so why couldn't I develop a saber so I could tell when its on? A Jedi Artisan could, maybe a Force-link with the crystal to tell if it works, or a piece of string attached to it that gets visibly cutwhenever the saber turns on
Add a synthcrystal that can radiate thermal and other energy but not light, or laser like, so you san only see it when it is pointed at you, and my invisible blade is complete.

Tramp
10 October 2003, 10:41 AM
First off, a lightsaber isn't light. It's plasma, which is a visible energy, that does emit lvisible light, there is no getting around that.. Second, as has already been explained, a lightsaber is an extremely fine tuned piece of equipment, which means that any vibrations felt are a sign of a major problem, it's not something that you'd want in the design. Vibration is a bad thing.

Zanus
10 October 2003, 01:01 PM
I got to thinking about this argument over an invisible light saber. I came to the conclusion it is rather pointless to have an invisible blade as the light saber is already a great stealth weapon. If you don't want to give yourself away when you have it, you simply don't turn it on. It is meant as a last resort weapon as is, so if a Jedi sneaking around a ship has to turn it on, things are probably already at a bad and irreversible stage.

Plus, if you have the lightsaber still humming so you know it is on, then you are still giving yourself away. the hum can carry just as far and give just as much warning as the light. under some conditions it can actually carry farther then light, especially around bends and curves.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the allure of having something rather unique as an invisible blade. I am sure we have all day dreamed about it at some point in our lives. and yes, with proper mechanical knowledge you could make the blade actually vibrate like a cell phone, but you have to bare in mind that that will affect the alignment of the other components, and could mean the handle is either larger and bit more unyieldy, setting proper buffers inside so that the blade itself doesn't get messed up, or you will have frequent misshaps with your blade because the crystal keeps coming out of alignment.

Ultimately what you do with your characters is up to you and your GM. But for the purposes of near realism, I personnaly would have to agree with Tramp. Besides, I think that an invisible blade is simply to dangerous for the user to try and use, even with proper training with a normal lightsaber. At least wth a normal lightsaber you know where the blade tip is. Heat of combat can cause you to forget or overlook certain precautions with your invisible blade.

"I have you n-...wait a minute, where did my arm go? uh oh" 8o

Tramp
10 October 2003, 01:06 PM
My point exactly.

Darth_Cassed
10 October 2003, 02:20 PM
Well should a person make the lightsaber to vibrate while on, I think there may be some mechanical checks in there. Wouldn't that increase the chance of the saber malfunctioning? If all the parts are moving, or being made to move by one part, then it'll be easier to knock them outta alignment.
How would the blade work if it's constantly vibrating? If the crystals are being affected by it?

Ardent
10 October 2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Zanus
I got to thinking about this argument over an invisible light saber. I came to the conclusion it is rather pointless to have an invisible blade as the light saber is already a great stealth weapon. If you don't want to give yourself away when you have it, you simply don't turn it on. It is meant as a last resort weapon as is, so if a Jedi sneaking around a ship has to turn it on, things are probably already at a bad and irreversible stage.

"A weapon beautiful in intention and design, the lightsaber. Intended to bring peace into this galaxy, its presence has usually heralded only war. I say this not as discouragement, but as warning. If so ever you should desire to ignite your blade, be ready to answer this question: why? If you cannot answer the question to your own satisfaction, then your lightsaber should remain dark, cold and silent. When a Jedi ignites his lightsaber, he instantly catalyzes the situation. What was, before, a recoverable situation has become irrecoverable. The Jedi who has ignited his lightsaber must be ready to fight, or he will die."

In other words: my thoughts exactly.

Errin Orwain
10 October 2003, 06:23 PM
also consider that the jedi are guardians of peace and justice, not assassins. the desire for a silent, invisible lightsaber borders on darkside thinking. it is a weapon with a questionable purpose. and if I am correct the lightsaber components are the star wars equivalant of solid state and would not make any noise or vibration at all, the humming we hear in the movies is probibly from air being disintigrated as it contacts the blade.

Master Tryka
10 October 2003, 06:24 PM
I think another MAJOR flaw in the clear or invisible or whatever blade, is that it doesn't work with Jedi ideology. IMHO part of the lightsaber, and what makes it "an elegant weapon of a more civilized age" is the treat of it... You are opposing some robed bum, and the snap/hiss he has a lightsaber, you think twice. That and the clear or invisible blade is the ultimate in aggression, which is a definate Jedi no-no.

Tramp
10 October 2003, 06:29 PM
Based upon the Official Site's databank, we know that the hum comes from the resonation of the crystals. However, actual vibration will cause failure, or at the very least is the prelude to it.

Errin Orwain
10 October 2003, 06:41 PM
then can we for the most part agree that an invisible, silent lightsaber is pretty much impossible in the star wars universe, and even if it were possible it would be a Dark Side Point magnet?!?

Tramp
10 October 2003, 06:48 PM
I've been telling him it's impossible since he brought up the idea. So, yeah, we can definately agree on this point.

Ardent
10 October 2003, 09:14 PM
Eh, it would be no more or less an attraction of the dark side as any other lightsaber.

I stand firmly behind the belief that has been espoused in the NJO saga. The dark side not an emanation of malignance from the Force itself, but a facet of the philosophies used to explain the Force. The lightsaber, as the extension of the Jedi, is as much a tool as the Force is, and is not in and of itself a malignant entity of the dark side. The lightsaber of a dark side wielder is still a lightsaber...the taint that remains belongs to the dark sider.

Although, when all is said and done...it takes the stronger man to leave the sword in its scabbard.

Zanus
10 October 2003, 11:56 PM
okey, taking the idea of the dark side is only based off intention, and bare in mind I have only gotten as far as balance point, and it is 12:50 am for me right now, so this may not come out quite as intend, if the 'dark side' is only based off of intention, then wouldn't the intentions of having an invisible lightsaber in any shape or form be of some of the dark intentions, as no normal jedi would have any reason to intend to have an invisible blade?

please tell me that made sense.

lemme try again to make sure I didn't lose anyone.

Any reason to have an invisible blade would likely be for stealth and sneaking purposes, and more or less un-noticed killing. As previously noted a Jedi does not pull his blade unless for combat, and will do what he can to avoid combat. If a normal Jedi fully intends to avoid combat, why is he preparing for silent killing by making his lightsaber blade invisible? The force prevides to many tools to get past guards without being noticed, or without being given a second thought to have to think about killing someone. So I ask you, how is the intention behind an invisble lightsaber NOT of needlessly aggressive intentions?

Now, I could see the fun as a GM to throw a group against a Dark Jedi or Sith who has somehow managed to make an invisble lightsaber and is willing to accept the risks of using it. Probably have two sabers, one invisible, one normal for different situations. Group finds a crewman dead, if they look hard enough they could find the cut marks. They hear the snap hiss of a lightsaber, they know it is close from the sound, but the various corridors near them cause the sound to echo alittle so they don't know which direction, and they can't see the light from the blade and are suddenly very scarred. That could be fun, but would only work acouple times against the same people. Of coarse, critical fumbles would prove more interesting with this bad guy as well....

BrianDavion
11 October 2003, 12:53 AM
then wouldn't the intentions of having an invisible lightsaber in any shape or form be of some of the dark intentions

I would th ink so yes.

the dark side or light side ain't so much about intetnions, thats a common misconception a lotta people have re: evil. that if your intentions are good you can commit an evil act. this is WRONG.

the old saying goes "the road to hell is apved with good intentions."

there be a reason for this.

it's not so much your intetnions as your actuions and you intentions. the dark side is internal, it's not some outside force that is all..

it's like this..
let's say someone tells you news that really frustrates you.. a little voice inside your head, might be telling you to shoot the messanger.

the dark side is simply your own inner dark impulses etc.

if you turn to the dark side you cannot say "the devil made me do it"

because the actions are YOURS.
the dark side is basicly a lack of self control. etc

Ardent
11 October 2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Zanus
okey, taking the idea of the dark side is only based off intention, and bare in mind I have only gotten as far as balance point, and it is 12:50 am for me right now, so this may not come out quite as intend, if the 'dark side' is only based off of intention, then wouldn't the intentions of having an invisible lightsaber in any shape or form be of some of the dark intentions, as no normal jedi would have any reason to intend to have an invisible blade?

First you have to define invisible. Humans can only see a small spectrum of light: the visibile spectrum (egotistic, yes). You also have the IR and UV spectrums. To our eyes, without interpretive help, images in these spectrums don't show up. But for at least a few Star Wars species, these spectrums are both visible and more pleasing than the "harsh" visible light spectrum. A lightsaber that is a deep shade of violet in the UV will, in all likelihood, appear "invisible" to a human.

Secondly, you have species who have strong aversions to the visible light spectrum. Would it be inconceivable that a Defel Jedi might want a lightsaber that casts no visible light for the depths of Af'El?

I would hesitate to say, as well, that intentions can be cut and dry. It's not so much the intention that lies in the dark side, but the employment. An invisible lightsaber constructed to assist in assassinations is no more malignant than a bright blue one constructed to save the galaxy. But when it is employed to fulfill those assassinations, it becomes tainted by its wielder.


Any reason to have an invisible blade would likely be for stealth and sneaking purposes, and more or less un-noticed killing. As previously noted a Jedi does not pull his blade unless for combat, and will do what he can to avoid combat. If a normal Jedi fully intends to avoid combat, why is he preparing for silent killing by making his lightsaber blade invisible? The force prevides to many tools to get past guards without being noticed, or without being given a second thought to have to think about killing someone. So I ask you, how is the intention behind an invisble lightsaber NOT of needlessly aggressive intentions?

Intention is nothing without action.

Zanus
11 October 2003, 11:27 AM
I apologize, I missinterpreted the books then.

And you got me on the Defel ;)

Tramp
11 October 2003, 11:33 AM
Regardless, a plasma beam like that of a lightsaber works in the "visible ' spectrum, not the UV or IR spectrum. though it would also be visible in those spectrums. So, even a Defel Jedi would have a blade that ilumineces, and is visible to those who see in the normal visible spectrum.

Solo666
11 October 2003, 02:20 PM
I said at first no light-sider would want one, and I have no doubt a skilled Jedi Artisan could. However, a Dark Side Assassin cult would have a great need for an invisible blade, and Boba Fett has used equipment that could make the saber silent. However, we have used enough space arguing over this so:
1) It would be nearly impossible, but a genious theat was also a lvl 5 Artisan could do it
2) No Jedi would want one, but a Dark Side/Sith assassin could use it, but they would eventually counter it
3) They would do this in secret, or else Tramps would think they were senile and kill them with Force Lightning or a red saber as practice

Tramp
11 October 2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Solo666
I said at first no light-sider would want one, and I have no doubt a skilled Jedi Artisan could. However, a Dark Side Assassin cult would have a great need for an invisible blade, and Boba Fett has used equipment that could make the saber silent. However, we have used enough space arguing over this so:
1) It would be nearly impossible, but a genious theat was also a lvl 5 Artisan could do it

Nope, It would be impossible, period..


2) No Jedi would want one, but a Dark Side/Sith assassin could use it, but they would eventually counter it

Not even a Dark Sider would want one. Too Dangerous to himself.


3) They would do this in secret, or else Tramps would think they were senile and kill them with Force Lightning or a red saber as practice

Very funny, Ha, Ha, Ha.:rolleyes:

Reverend Strone
11 October 2003, 04:23 PM
Okay, Moderator time-

Ladies and gentlemen, some of the posts in this debate are developing an edge of frustration and annoyance as the same points get argued back and forth and the arguers tire of one another. Please feel free to continue the discussion, but I would remind everyone to keep calm and be cautious of refering to eachother jokingly in your posts for fear of causing offence. It's been civilised and mature so far, let's keep it that way.

That said, here's the way I see it.

Talk of an invisible lightsaber blade is something that clearly some folks can't accept, while others can. Remember that in your own games, you can invent your own rules based on your own interpretation of Star Wars. I wouldn't allow it in one of my own games, but that's not to say other GMs here shouldn't be allowed to use it in their's if they see fit.

What I might consider in my game is something that does the same job, but isn't a lightsaber perse- more like a monofilament blade (basically a string of particles one molecule wide held in place by a tightly defined forcefield). Such a weapon might be invisible, slient and be able to be switched on and off like a saber. The hilt could look like whatever the designer wanted- a lightsaber if he felt like it- although I would submit that such a weapon might need a fairly hefty power source- perhaps worn as a backpack with a cable that joins to the base of the weapon hilt.

Perhaps that kind of weapon might satisfy the properties sought by someone wanting an invisible LS while not pushing the bounds of what we know a LS is capable of from the movies and books?

Of course, that still doesn't overcome how silly someone might look wielding a weapon no one can see.:D

In all seriousness though guys, let's treat eachother nicely as we continue to debate this subject. If someone uses an invisible blade in their games it really doesn't affect the rest of us gamers out there at all.

Solo666
11 October 2003, 04:55 PM
I was wondering-you know how peole have "rank text" that is obviously custom or would at least be some way similar? How do you do that, have at least three dots or something?

Zanus
11 October 2003, 09:24 PM
If you mean the rank badges, like you have two red dots, I have two blue triangles and two red ones, etc, that is based off of a number of factors that last I heard are secret but loosely based on number of posts and use of the forums and site. I don't know if it was ever released how it works, or if it still does 'promotions'

If you mean the text above or bleow that badge, like mine with "Guns don't kill people, the government does" after a certain level or amoutn of time on, you can do this in your settings. I can't remember what it takes, as as soon as I was able I did it and forgot.

Darth_Cassed
12 October 2003, 07:26 AM
Please keep on topic Solo666, any questions about how the HoloNet works can be asked to a forum Moderator in a PM or there are several threads discussing such things if you do a search.

And by the way, if my memory serves me right, you need 200 posts to be able to have the rank text customized. I think that was it.....

In any case, the topic is Lightsaber Colors, let's have some more arguing about that :P :D

Solo666
12 October 2003, 12:27 PM
Why did the "modern" Jedi stop using claws, fangs, etc. to decorate their sabers? More combat-effective if it fails...
They can't say its more techno, considering the "ancient" Jedi are still millenia after the invention of hyperspace. Did Yoda disapprove?

Colors... not much uncovered by this thread... Would multiple blades oon one saber be able to meet and combine as one blade, or would they push eachother away and destroy the weapon?

Reverend Strone
12 October 2003, 02:05 PM
Let's keep this on topic please. Questions or discussion points that are sufficiently different to the original topic are best addressed in new threads, as has been said.

Syden Took
24 October 2003, 12:51 PM
Hay, lst time i looked. Kia had the purple light sight saber in episod 1 (action figure). Then Maci got it. That is what i saw. But i think that they just wanted a different thing put in there and that they need a main big guy besides YODA.

Master Tryka
24 October 2003, 12:55 PM
Well, that may have something to do with it, but it's a pretty well known and accepted fact that Samuel L Jackson went to GL and more or less asked for it and GL said ok. Purple is one of SLJ's fave colors, and GL relented and let him have it as a saber.

Tramp
24 October 2003, 01:01 PM
That is correct, Samuel L. Jackson did specifically ask GL for a purple lightsaber. It is brought up ion th AOTC DVD.

Reverend Strone
24 October 2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Syden Took
Hay, lst time i looked. Kia had the purple light sight saber in episod 1 (action figure). Then Maci got it. That is what i saw. But i think that they just wanted a different thing put in there and that they need a main big guy besides YODA.

Hasbro always included an ignited saber as an accessory with their 3 3/4 inch SW action figures. When Ep 1 came out, the were forced to make up colours for the action figures based on the Council Members because, aside from the main cast, none of the other Jedi are ever seen carrying lit sabers in the film.

Their colour choices were purely speculative. With GL's edict of green and blue only (Mace being his afore mentioned exception) for Jedi, which came in to effect as of Ep 2, all subsequent releases of figures based on characters like Adi Galia and Ki-Adi Mundi have been corrected to fall in line with the approved colour schemes, which is why a Ki-Adi Mundi figure released last year had a blue saber, while his Ep 1 counterpart had a purple one.

Solo666
25 October 2003, 12:37 PM
I know in either a book somewhere or a movie seen I thought I saw Ki-adi-mudi w/ a purple saber. Is that just b/c purple is so similar to blue?

Errin Orwain
25 October 2003, 06:55 PM
I don't know what books Ki-Adi has been in, but AotC is the only time we acctually see his lightsaber. It is blue if I recall, as was Adi Gallias' [which was red on her first figure]. the Luke Skywalker figure released around 1977 had a yellow lightsaber, and we know that he never had anything other than his fathers blue saber and the green one he built himself. I really wouldn't put any stock in what comes with a toy if you haven't seen it on screen.

Reverend Strone
25 October 2003, 08:48 PM
Yeah, who would have thought R5-D4 had a rocket launcher eh?
;) :D

Kordeth
26 October 2003, 05:38 AM
You're probably thinking of one of the Episode I-era comic books Dark Horse put out around the time of the movie. They used the wacky multi-colored sabers, including Ki-Adi Mundi's purple saber and, IIRC, they gave Yoda an orangish-yellow saber. But in the movies, all the sabers are red, green, or blue, with Mace being the sole exception.

Syden Took
27 October 2003, 06:44 AM
Yah, Ki was in a comic i have. It was called Out Landers, i think. I know it was about when he finds a old jedi that has become a sand person. But he is killed by Lora Sing. But his son becames Ki padawon. But that is what i saw. That is it for now
:cerean::aurra:

Solo666
27 October 2003, 12:42 PM
i read one about his daughter, but its basically the same kind of thing. He had a padawan? i was told he was still a knight

Dr_Worm
27 October 2003, 01:24 PM
Yep, a Tuskan that decended from a Jedi.

Errin Orwain
27 October 2003, 06:28 PM
the Jedi Master that lived among the Tusken Raiders on Tatooine was Shared Hett, he was killed by Aurra Sing, and his half-Tusken son A'Shared Hett did become Ki-Adi Mundis' Padawan for a time before the "Dark Woman" took over his training. Ki-Adi Mundi is recognized as a Jedi Master by Ep II if I am not mistaken.

Ardent
27 October 2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Errin Orwain
the Jedi Master that lived among the Tusken Raiders on Tatooine was Shared Hett, he was killed by Aurra Sing, and his half-Tusken son A'Shared Hett did become Ki-Adi Mundis' Padawan for a time before the "Dark Woman" took over his training. Ki-Adi Mundi is recognized as a Jedi Master by Ep II if I am not mistaken.

Maybe. Who would have replaced him as the Knight councilor then?

Tramp
27 October 2003, 09:00 PM
Noone would. He was the only knight known to have sat on the council, and that was because of his uncanny insight. normally, you'd have to be a Master to earn a seat on the council.

Errin Orwain
28 October 2003, 07:45 PM
Quite right.

raven1337
11 December 2003, 12:09 AM
I don't believe that there was too much rhyme or reason to who got what colored lightsaber blade, but the closest thing to resemble this was blue went to investigators, healers, etc... Green went to pilots, and purple went to warrior types... remember, in the Geonosis scene, Mace Windu wasn't the only one with a purple blade. The sith, with their synthetic blades, generally get red gems, but as it says in the PoTJ sourcebook, sith blades come in a "wild array of colors."

johnnyputrid
11 December 2003, 06:47 AM
Actually, Mace WAS the only Jedi with a purple saber. It's one of the things that makes him unique. What you most likely saw was a different shade of blue. If you look closely during the arena battle (slow-mo helps) you will see various shades of blue sabers, some darker, some lighter. Most of the green blades look the same as far as I can tell.
As was stated earlier, watch the AOTC bonus material. There is a scene with Sam and George talking about lightsaber colors. Lucas specifically states that good guys get blue and green, bad guys get red.
I don't think your role as a Jedi (guardian, consular, ace, etc.) has anything to do with color, its just personal preference.

As far as the council members go, Ki-Adi is a master by the time of AOTC. The only major change to the council is the addition of Coleman Trebor, who replaced Yarael Poof (the guy with the super-long neck) who I believe died in one of the comics.

Kordeth
11 December 2003, 12:13 PM
Actually, I don't think the shades of blue were different, even--I think it was just that they were in different places in the shot, with different colored objects behind them, which affects the color of the glow (just like on Kamino, there are scenes where Obi-Wan's saber seems to disappear against the bright white walls).

But yes, I agree, there's no meaning behind saber colors, except, as I said before, for conveniently color-coding good guys and bad guys. It's like white hats and black hats in cowboy movies.

Kelcheck
2 November 2004, 12:29 AM
According to an interview/ documentry (think it was about techinical/ special effects, but not sure) Originally (i mean originally in film, not in referance to the earlier drafts of the films where lightsabers were a common weapon even used by stormtroopers) there was only red and blue lightsabers. Blue for all good guys and red for all bad guys. And this formual worked until he filmed the sarlack pit scenes in ROTJ infront of a blue screen. GL mentions that they had a hard time creating a good looking Blue saber blade in those shots during post production. So the green saber was born. They picked green because it would show up well, and because of its vast contrast to vader's red saber. GL also was into earth tones for good guys by ROTJ and thought that green would show life, where the red shows hate. By the time of AOTC, Sam asked GL for a purple Lightsaber, GL says that he thinks he might get a purple saber (samual Jackson loves purple)

No i have read somewhere that luke make his green crystal in a furnace in obi won's hut (shadows of the empire i think, but not sure) I have always allowed my players to to be able (with the appropriate skill rolls) to be able to make what ever saber color they want if they choose to grow their own crystals. But i always limint the natural damage and resonance in the force of synthetic crystal to a lower stats than natural ones.

Ravnor
2 June 2006, 05:01 AM
I heard that different colours had different traits:
Blue= lighter more maneuverable.
Red= strongest blade.
Green= balenced between the two.
But arn't there also yellow lightsabres?

Tramp
2 June 2006, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
According to an interview/ documentry (think it was about techinical/ special effects, but not sure) Originally (i mean originally in film, not in referance to the earlier drafts of the films where lightsabers were a common weapon even used by stormtroopers) there was only red and blue lightsabers. Blue for all good guys and red for all bad guys. And this formual worked until he filmed the sarlack pit scenes in ROTJ infront of a blue screen. GL mentions that they had a hard time creating a good looking Blue saber blade in those shots during post production. So the green saber was born. They picked green because it would show up well, and because of its vast contrast to vader's red saber. GL also was into earth tones for good guys by ROTJ and thought that green would show life, where the red shows hate. By the time of AOTC, Sam asked GL for a purple Lightsaber, GL says that he thinks he might get a purple saber (samual Jackson loves purple)

No i have read somewhere that luke make his green crystal in a furnace in obi won's hut (shadows of the empire i think, but not sure) I have always allowed my players to to be able (with the appropriate skill rolls) to be able to make what ever saber color they want if they choose to grow their own crystals. But i always limint the natural damage and resonance in the force of synthetic crystal to a lower stats than natural ones.

Actually, GL brought the green lightsaber into the poicture because the blue didn’t show upo against the blue desert sky, not against the blue--screen. If that were the caes they would have simply used green screen for such scenes. As for Luke making his crystals, that is stated in the book Shadows of the Empire.

Tramp
2 June 2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Ravnor
I heard that different colours had different traits:
Blue= lighter more maneuverable.
Red= strongest blade.
Green= balenced between the two.
But arn't there also yellow lightsabres?

It isn’t the colors which have different traits, but diffeent crystals do. The five different Adegan crystals all provide different levels of lethality woth Kathracite being the weakest, and Pontite the strongest. The Sith used Alchemy to make their Synthetic crystals which hwere stronger, unlike standard synthetics, they often chose the color red because it is the color of blood, but color andf strength do not go hand-in-hand. And yes, there are Yellow blades, but not in the movies. In the EU, partiicularly in all the eras except the Prequel and Rebellion eras, there are many colors for lightsabers running the entire gamut of the visible spectrum: multiple hues each of red, orange, yellow, blue, green, indigo, violet, as well as turquiose, silver, amethyst, pewter, molten bronze, you name it.

Ubiqtorate
2 June 2006, 08:23 AM
Knights of the Old Republic suggests that the lightsaber color is a reflection of the Jedi's path.

Blue=Guardian
Green=Consular
Yellow=Sentinel

In the game, though, while the first lightsaber you make is the color of the class you choose, Jedi are apparently not required to carry a lightsaber corresponding to the color of their class, and lightsaber colors can be changed by swapping out crystals.

Tramp
2 June 2006, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Knights of the Old Republic suggests that the lightsaber color is a reflection of the Jedi's path.

Blue=Guardian
Green=Consular
Yellow=Sentinel

In the game, though, while the first lightsaber you make is the color of the class you choose, Jedi are apparently not required to carry a lightsaber corresponding to the color of their class, and lightsaber colors can be changed by swapping out crystals.

Remember, that was only a game mechanic and has no real in universe significance.

Ravnor
2 June 2006, 09:55 AM
Yes but in the same way you could say that the books are wrong because of the films.

Master Dao Rin
2 June 2006, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Ravnor
Yes but in the same way you could say that the books are wrong because of the films.

Exactly. The games are just as much canon as everything else, since they neither have an Infinities logo on them or are considered Star Wars Tales stories. I'm sure Tramp will back us up on this ...

:D

One would think that the colour does have some significance and tradition behind them, given the perceived great symbolism the Jedi attach to the lightsaber.

Lucas Carr
2 June 2006, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Ravnor
I heard that different colours had different traits:
Blue= lighter more maneuverable.
Red= strongest blade.
Green= balenced between the two.
But arn't there also yellow lightsabres?

The first thing I thought of when I saw this was the various lightsaber fighting styles in IIRC one of the Jedi Knight games, which on the display showed a color to represent which style you were using.

I don't remember which color was which, but perhaps that had something to do with this thought of yours.

PsychoInfiltrator
2 June 2006, 05:56 PM
Exactly. The games are just as much canon as everything else, since they neither have an Infinities logo on them or are considered Star Wars Tales stories. I'm sure Tramp will back us up on this ...


Actually, we're more liekly to get a Canon Levels chart. I'd post it, but I don't have it committed to memory yet.

Basically, the movies are always right, but there are certain parts that some unknown Rishi prankster put in to drive us mad. ;)

Tramp
2 June 2006, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin


Exactly. The games are just as much canon as everything else, since they neither have an Infinities logo on them or are considered Star Wars Tales stories. I'm sure Tramp will back us up on this ...

:D

One would think that the colour does have some significance and tradition behind them, given the perceived great symbolism the Jedi attach to the lightsaber.

Yes, the stories, major events, and characters within the games are canon. This has been stated by Sue Rostoni and Leland Chee both. However, the game mechanics are not. Much in a game is there only for game-play, not story purposes. The various “classes” and the significance of the diffeent colors associated with those three were developed solely for game play purposes. They aren’t true story elements. That is the difference.

Ravnor, as for the books being wrong because of the movies. No, the books aren’t because they do not directly and irreconsilably contradict the movies. The movies deal only with two specific eras, and during those eras, lightsaber colors are indeed limited. It is in the eras set before and after the movies that had more colors available to them because new sources of crystals were opened up, and old sources rediscovered. As the PotJSB explained, during the Prequel and Reballion eras, Ilum was the only source of Adegan Crystals available to the Jedi, and it only produced blue and green crystals. Mace Windu did not use an Adegan Crystal. He used a crystal from the planet Huurkaine. Until the Battle of Ruusan, the Jedi had access to that planet’s Adegan Crystals. During the second Sith War, they had access to Dantooine’s Adegan Crystals, but that was lost some time during that war. Before the Great Sith War, they had access to Ossus’ Adegan Crystals. Ossus, was in the Adegan System and is where Adegan Crystals get their name. Ossus was lost as a result of a shock-wave originating from the mass super nova of the Chron Star Cluster which was caused by Sith magic. This left only Ilum until Luke Skywalker rediscovered Ossus during the comic Dark Empire II.

Ubiqtorate
2 June 2006, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Tramp


Yes, the stories, major events, and characters within the games are canon. This has been stated by Sue Rostoni and Leland Chee both. However, the game mechanics are not. Much in a game is there only for game-play, not story purposes. The various “classes” and the significance of the diffeent colors associated with those three were developed solely for game play purposes. They aren’t true story elements. That is the difference.

Ah, so now we're picking and choosing what's canon and what isn't? While I agree with you that game mechanics are not, as a rule, canon, I think there's a pretty fine line between what is a "game mechanic" and what is a "story element." This is one in particular that could be argued either way. Conversations regarding the Jedi classes among characters in the game seem to suggest that there's more thought that goes into the choice than just deciding which progression bonuses your character gets. Yes, it's a convenient game mechanic, and as I've already said, beyond determining the color of the player character's first lightsaber, it has absolutely no bearing on the lightsaber colors of any character. But it's also an intriguing story element, if you'll allow it to be.

Tramp
2 June 2006, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate


Ah, so now we're picking and choosing what's canon and what isn't? While I agree with you that game mechanics are not, as a rule, canon, I think there's a pretty fine line between what is a "game mechanic" and what is a "story element." This is one in particular that could be argued either way. Conversations regarding the Jedi classes among characters in the game seem to suggest that there's more thought that goes into the choice than just deciding which progression bonuses your character gets. Yes, it's a convenient game mechanic, and as I've already said, beyond determining the color of the player character's first lightsaber, it has absolutely no bearing on the lightsaber colors of any character. But it's also an intriguing story element, if you'll allow it to be.

No, I’m not picking and choosing. Leland Chee himself told me this at CIII, and he has mentioned it on the official message boards. game mechanics are just that, [b]game mechanics[/i] only there to enhance game play. The actual story elements, characters, events, and plots are what are canon, not the game mechanics.

Lucas Carr
3 June 2006, 12:41 AM
We all know that there are levels of canon, I've seen them published somewhere on this site, so lets stick to the purpose of this thread.

Ravnor
3 June 2006, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Tramp


It isn’t the colors which have different traits, but diffeent crystals do. The five different Adegan crystals all provide different levels of lethality woth Kathracite being the weakest, and Pontite the strongest. The Sith used Alchemy to make their Synthetic crystals which hwere stronger, unlike standard synthetics, they often chose the color red because it is the color of blood, but color andf strength do not go hand-in-hand. And yes, there are Yellow blades, but not in the movies. In the EU, partiicularly in all the eras except the Prequel and Rebellion eras, there are many colors for lightsabers running the entire gamut of the visible spectrum: multiple hues each of red, orange, yellow, blue, green, indigo, violet, as well as turquiose, silver, amethyst, pewter, molten bronze, you name it.

Do they have black lightsabres?

Rogue Trader
3 June 2006, 03:04 AM
No.

Simply, black cannot be used as a viable lightsaber colour because black represents the absence of all light and colour. Lightsaber blades emit light, therefore true black light is impossible.

Ubiqtorate
3 June 2006, 08:50 AM
Check out this thread on black lightsabers. (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?threadid=20127) Personally, I don't have a problem with black lightsabers. Sure, our concept of physics doesn't know of any way to "shine" black light, but at the same time, our grasp of physics doesn't know of any way to capture light inside a glowing blade, either, so why not?

Tramp, I wasn't suggesting that game mechanics should be canon. I'm just saying that in some cases there's an awfully fine line between what is a "story element" and what is "just a game mechanic."

Tramp
3 June 2006, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Check out this thread on black lightsabers. (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?threadid=20127) Personally, I don't have a problem with black lightsabers. Sure, our concept of physics doesn't know of any way to "shine" black light, but at the same time, our grasp of physics doesn't know of any way to capture light inside a glowing blade, either, so why not?

Very simple. Lightsaber blades emit light, but they are not light themselves. the term “light”saber comes from the fact that the blade is a blade of energy that glows. It gives off light. However, the blade itself is not made from light energy. It doesn’t use optical technology. It is an energy blade more closely related to plasma in how it works, and is produced through a magnetic technology. According to the official databank, as well as the TotJC and the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook (and the three original sourcebooks that were compiled into it) the blade of a lightsaber is formed when energy is released from the energy cell, is then focused through a series of resonating crystals, and then passes through a positively charged continuous energy lense. It then extends out to a certain point, before arcing back upon itself circumventially to a negatively charged flux apeture set in the disk that forms the guard. The power is then channeled through a superconductor back into the energy cell.


Tramp, I wasn't suggesting that game mechanics should be canon. I'm just saying that in some cases there's an awfully fine line between what is a "story element" and what is "just a game mechanic."

Yes, there is, but this question was asked of Leland Chee, and even he said that the “classes” and colors were just game mechanics, nothing more.

Ravnor
4 June 2006, 08:38 AM
There are duel mode sabres that switch colour, Corran Horn uses one of theses in the book Onslaught. His switches from silver to purple.

Tramp
5 June 2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Ravnor
There are duel mode sabres that switch colour, Corran Horn uses one of theses in the book Onslaught. His switches from silver to purple.

Yes, there are. Corran’s Dual-phase lightsdaber switches color because he uses two different types fo crystals for the two lengths, and Emberald for normal length, and a diamond for the extended length. When the emerald is in place the blade is silver with a slight green tint (the silver actually comes from the Durindfire gem he uses as a continuous energy lense). When he has the diamond in position, the blade changes to purple.

Now, other forms af variable blade lightsabers—sucvh as Luke’s first lightsaber—don’t change color because theywork by adjusting the distance and refraction between the crystals. thus adjusting the length of the blade to a wider range of lengths.

Ravnor
5 June 2006, 11:16 AM
so is Corran's sabre one of a kind?

Uron Teff
5 June 2006, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Ravnor
so is Corran's sabre one of a kind?

I guess every lightsaber is one of a kind due to the complex and unique creation process of a lightsaber. F.e. Jedi Artisans created more than one lightsaber and all were unique due to the variations in the lightsaber crystals and the parts used.

Tramp
5 June 2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Ravnor
so is Corran's sabre one of a kind?

No, it isn’t. It is based upon archaic designs used long ago. His ancestor, Kieran Halcyon, and his grandfather, Nejaa Halcyon also used dual-phase lightsabers as well.

Ubiqtorate
5 June 2006, 01:13 PM
Corran's lightsaber is often essentially referred to as "old-school" by some of the more... progressive Jedi in the NJO (Ganner Rhysode is a notable example). What the disadvantage of a dual-phase lightsaber would be, I don't really understand. Perhaps that it only has two phases, rather than the sliding scale variable lightsabers that Tramp mentioned. So in that sense, Corran's lightsaber may be one of a kind among "modern" Jedi, but as Tramp also mentioned, years ago such a thing would not have been unusual.

PsychoInfiltrator
5 June 2006, 02:34 PM
so is Corran's sabre one of a kind?

In other words, the dual-phase-ness of the lightsaber is nto one of a kind, but the decoration and exact attunement and all that stuff is unique, just like every other lightsaber.

nebachadnezzer
22 June 2006, 02:20 PM
I read in the PotJ handbook that the natural crystals can make alot of colors. Bronze, silver, viridan, pink etc.

Synphetic cyrstals can only make red, blue and green.

with different combinations of crystals and components can adjust the colors.

the reason that the jedi were given only the colors of blue and green after training was simple because those were the most common crystals to access.

I had even made it to where a player could create a cyrstal imbued with there own force. similar to the crystals in KotOR 2 game.

the world i run is after the KotOR games and long before the prequels

but if i mayh ask a stupid question. I keep reading people typing "canon" i assume this is another term for compatible?

though it maybe simple a color error, there is a photo in the PotJ handbook with Plo Koon also carring a purple lightsaber.

PsychoInfiltrator
22 June 2006, 05:49 PM
but if i mayh ask a stupid question. I keep reading people typing "canon" i assume this is another term for compatible?

Sort of, actually. It means officially recognized by LFL and subsidiaries. Compatibility is one of the main requiremnts, and canon levels are in place to show what source is accurate if two appear to disagree. (This usually leads to a retcon.)

Tramp
22 June 2006, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by nebachadnezzer
I read in the PotJ handbook that the natural crystals can make alot of colors. Bronze, silver, viridan, pink etc.

Synphetic cyrstals can only make red, blue and green.

with different combinations of crystals and components can adjust the colors.

the reason that the jedi were given only the colors of blue and green after training was simple because those were the most common crystals to access.

I had even made it to where a player could create a cyrstal imbued with there own force. similar to the crystals in KotOR 2 game.

the world i run is after the KotOR games and long before the prequels

but if i mayh ask a stupid question. I keep reading people typing "canon" i assume this is another term for compatible?

though it maybe simple a color error, there is a photo in the PotJ handbook with Plo Koon also carring a purple lightsaber.

Actually, the PotJSB says nothing about syntetic crystals only producing red, blue or green blades. The only thing it says on the issue of crystals is that Crystals from the planet Ilum only produce blue or green blades, while the Sith have a large casche of red crystals. This is stated on page 55. in the sidebar titled Lightsaber Color. Nowhere in that book does it say anything about synthetic crystals being limited in color. As I have already mentioned, Jaina Solo synthesized her crystals for her lightsaber, and her blade is electric violet in color.

Ubiqtorate
22 June 2006, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by nebachadnezzer
I keep reading people typing "canon" i assume this is another term for compatible?

"Canon" means that something has been explicitly included in official material, be that film, print, or other media. It can be definitively referenced.

Or at least, that's pretty much how I understand it. Tramp is really our resident expert on canon, so perhaps he could explain it better.

Now, regarding red lightsaber crystals - it seems implicit in certain source materials (the movies, for example, as well as some of the video games) that only Dark Jedi use red lightsabers. Other EU sources, though, have many Jedi using red crystals, including Leia. I know that in the movies, Lucas used the colors as a quick visual cue to tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys," but is there any other reason to suggest that Dark Jedi might prefer red lightsabers? I seem to recall reading somewhere that red crystals are easier to synthesize, and in that sense seem to represent the "quick and easy" path chosen by Darksiders. I don't have a reference for that, though - anyone care to help?

Rogue Trader
23 June 2006, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Now, regarding red lightsaber crystals - it seems implicit in certain source materials (the movies, for example, as well as some of the video games) that only Dark Jedi use red lightsabers.
Technically, since the Jedi Order has had access to sources of naturally occuring red crystals in the past (Ossus and Dantooine for example), an individual Jedi can make a red lightsaber and face nothing but disapproval.


...but is there any other reason to suggest that Dark Jedi might prefer red lightsabers?
Dark Jedi, like the Sith, may simply prefer that their lightsaber blades, red blades through the use of red crystals, match their darker natures -- as noted in the pg. 55 sidebar of the PotJSB.

Also, as has been noted... given that the Sith have had, at times, access to a large cache of red crystals -- whether naturally occuring or synthetically created (the tone of the sidebar Tramp and I mention would seem to suggest the red crystals are natural as well) -- Dark Jedi connected or operating with these Sith likely had the opportunity to make use of the red crystals from the cache itself.

Tramp
23 June 2006, 10:38 AM
Rogue Trader is correct. However, I doubt a Jedi would even face disapproval for using a red blade, except, maybe, during the Prequel era, and that is stretching it, because Adi-Galia had a crimson (a deep red) blade in the pre-AotC comics and her action figure. And, she was a member of the Jedi Council.

Ravnor
23 June 2006, 10:47 AM
what happened to that lightsaber? because in jedi starfighter she uses a blue blade.

nebachadnezzer
23 June 2006, 11:13 AM
My apologizes i stand corrected Tramp. it was a print out supplement that i printed of another board that stated that.

Tramp
23 June 2006, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Ravnor
what happened to that lightsaber? because in jedi starfighter she uses a blue blade.
I don’t know. I don’t think that has ever been dealt with.