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View Full Version : Could Dooku have been beaten before Yoda entered the scene?



Krad-edis
6 April 2003, 07:44 AM
Does anyone believe that if Anakin would have taken the advice of Kenobi, they would have beaten Dooku? Could they have won against them, or would he have embarressed or killed both of them at the same time?

Jim Williams
6 April 2003, 08:07 AM
I think so. I just don't think Dooku was bad-a** enough to fight both of them at the same time. Obi-Wan seemed fairly confident in his course of action; it didn't seem like he was desperate or fatalistic about it.

From a Behind the Scenes aspect, someone once reiterated that GL's opinion of Obi-Wan is that he was one of the most gifted Jedi ever...a real cut above the norm (i.e, a PC in my book).

Dooku just didn't seem to have the raw ferocity and speed to handle two Jedi, especially those two. Dan Kyrinov, don't read this next part...

By comparison, a less formidable pair like Bariss and her Master might not have made it.

Maybe Stumpy and Obi-Wan will have another shot at him...but I doubt it.

Nova Spice
6 April 2003, 09:08 AM
I agree with Jim that the combined power of Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been quite a match for Dooku. In a lightsaber duel, I think Dooku would have been downed, but I'm skeptical about the Jedi defeating Dooku when it comes to raw Force power. I'm not so sure Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been able to pull the tricks out Yoda did (i.e. asorbing Force lightning, firing it back at Dooku, and dispersing a falling ceiling away).

If Dooku had only dueled them, I think Anakin and Obi-Wan would have won. If Dooku had pulled out all the stops, I think Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been hard pressed to stop the Separatist leader. ;)

Darth_Cassed
6 April 2003, 09:25 AM
Yes, I think if Dooku had used force powers he would have beaten them. In dueling, well, we'll never know.....

Krad-edis
7 April 2003, 01:14 PM
I would probably tend to agree that Dooku would not have won the fight against both Anakin and Kenobi, but would he have lost?

According to Starwars.com, Dooku (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/eu.html) "was unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat"

Not to mention, the guy held his own against the grand daddy of the Jedi, Yoda. Though he did retreat from his former master, it did not appear that he was really overpowered, at least IMO.

Game wise, there is quite a bit of difference of Force class expertise between the Sith Lord and the two Jedi. He was pretty smiley against Kenobi, and did not seem too winded against Anakin. I know that Obi-wan was around the 10th level, and Anakin was around the 6th, but old man Dooku is presented around 18th level. This is more than enough of a difference to really make things very hard on the younger Jedi, but I would have to say that Dooku would at least have to try, and probably would not have been very smiley. He probably would have kept his taunts to himself, and probably would have ran like a little girl as soon as he saw that he was facing a decent Jedi Knight, his incredibly powerful student, and his former Master all at once (though I wonder if Yoda would have shown up if he hadn't predicted that his students would have not been in serious trouble. Perhaps Yoda showed up at the scene primarily to fight his former student, don't really know).

Just some more stuff to think about, anyhow does anyone feel the same about this or differently? I certainly am interested in hearing how or why?

Jim Williams
7 April 2003, 02:46 PM
Based on levels, he'd destroy both of them barring a freak critical hit.

rpjunkie
7 April 2003, 03:09 PM
If sword fighters stopped doing all the pretty twirls and turning your back to you opponent trick he could have been beaten. and especially when he turns to start the pillar falling on the two jedi. Too much time passed right there where yoda should have removed his head from his shoulders. the I look away and you stand there until i'm done factor just annoyed me throughout that scene.

RPJ

Darth Fury
7 April 2003, 05:33 PM
I agree with Jim and Nova. It would have been a close duel, but I think in a duel against the two of them Dooku would have had to go more on the offensive and that would have opened him up to attack eventually. where as in the one on one duels he was able to stand off and take his shots as his opponents let their guard down.

Crymoon
9 April 2003, 02:30 AM
I think that you all think :D that Dooku would duel in a fair way. These weren't Olympic Games all moves possible - they wouldn't stand a chance. On the other hand if Dooku fought fair with only his lightsaber (but then why should he) then it would be difficutl to decide who could win.. Maybe some lucky strike or bad luck...

Codym
9 April 2003, 03:24 AM
It's hard to call, as Dooku had a big advantage the other two didn't: They were trying to take him alive (Okay, Obi-Wan at least,) something he did not have to worry about in reverse (though he did give them ample time to back off.) This is a pretty big advantage, and while I think his arrogance would have him duel fairly at first (he obviously conciders himself the better duelist,) his pride would have him pull every dirty trick he could as soon as the battle stopped going his way. Even so, I think a calm Anakin/Obi-Wan combo would have been able to defeat him (Anakin certainly gave Dooku trouble in their brief duel - no taunts there, just taking the other guy out as soon as possible.)

Hyperspace Marauder
10 April 2003, 12:31 PM
I have a theory that Dooku was "under orders" not to kill Anakin (from Darth Sideous). That's why he maimed Anakin instead of chopping his head off. With that, I think Dooku would have been functioning under a "Sith Handicap" when battling both Anakin and Obi-Wan at once. He probably would have had to bug out to get the plans to Coruscant (and not risk nuking Anakin).

Rogue Janson
10 April 2003, 01:05 PM
I think Obi-Wan and Anakin could have taken him if Anakin had stayed calm. Obi-Wan seemed able to handle Dooku's Force powers pretty effectively, and Anakin is pretty handy with that sabre.

Most of my reasons have been mentioned already, but there's another one - dramatically speaking it makes it more of a failure for Anakin. "We could have beaten him if you hadn't got angry like that" is much worse than "you shouldn't have got angry like that, but it doesn't really matter, he would have screwed us anyway."

Codym
10 April 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Hyperspace Marauder
I have a theory that Dooku was "under orders" not to kill Anakin (from Darth Sideous). That's why he maimed Anakin instead of chopping his head off. With that, I think Dooku would have been functioning under a "Sith Handicap" when battling both Anakin and Obi-Wan at once. He probably would have had to bug out to get the plans to Coruscant (and not risk nuking Anakin).

The problem with the theory that Dooku was "under orders" not to kill Anakin is this, Dooku has all ready tried to kill him twice by the point he fights Anakin in the hangar: Once during the execution, and then when he and the Jedi where surrounded by battle droids. And while Dooku seems smart enough to figure Sideous has another apprentice lined up, and by long shot knows that its Anakin, it only gives him more of an incentive to kill Anakin, even if under orders. No, more likely that Anakin had his arm lopped off because that was the openning Dooku found, rather than any deliberate design (other than Lucas's foundness for severed arms.)

Trandoshan Jedi
16 April 2003, 07:50 AM
Anakin and Obi Wan would have won before Yoda came in, only if Anakin hadn't charged Dooku

Hyperspace Marauder
16 April 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Codym


The problem with the theory that Dooku was "under orders" not to kill Anakin is this, Dooku has all ready tried to kill him twice by the point he fights Anakin in the hangar: Once during the execution, and then when he and the Jedi where surrounded by battle droids. And while Dooku seems smart enough to figure Sideous has another apprentice lined up, and by long shot knows that its Anakin, it only gives him more of an incentive to kill Anakin, even if under orders. No, more likely that Anakin had his arm lopped off because that was the openning Dooku found, rather than any deliberate design (other than Lucas's foundness for severed arms.)

I don't know. Vader was going to execute Leia, then the heroes arrived and oops... change of plan. I think Dooku was operating along these lines. I think he knew the Jedi were on their way. I think he knew he had to put Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme into the battle arena or the Clone Wars would never begin.

I retrospect, if Dooku had really wanted to kill the three in the Battle Arena, he would have been more aggressive. However, he allowed the three of them a lot of latitude during the fight. He even prevented Jango from shooting up the place.

Did he seemed surprised that Windu arrived. No. Were super battle droids already marching up behind Windu. Yes. Did Dooku mess Anakin up. Without a doubt. Did he kill Obi-Wan when he had the change. No. Deception and lies are his [Dooku's] ways now. I think there was much more going on there than was stated for the audience.

Is Obi-Wan a great warrior. Without a doubt. Does Anakin have amazing potential. Also, without a doubt. Is Dooku better. Yes. Without a doubt. The experience gap in between Yoda and Dooku is far less than the gap between Obi-Wan and Dooku.

Just my opinion.
Hyperspace Marauder

coldskier0320
17 April 2003, 04:10 AM
Maybe Stumpy and Obi-Wan will have another shot at him

lmao, i like this name for my (least) fav prequel character! Good ol' Stumpy! My two cents: i think with Anakin causing interference, Obi-Wan could have at least made Dooku withdraw, if not actually won the fight

Trandoshan Jedi
17 April 2003, 03:29 PM
It's all Anakin's fault they lost! ARGGH!:rolleyes:

Sirec Tyrak
27 April 2003, 03:19 PM
Anakin was too reckless and Obi-Wan couldn't take him alone. Together with Anakin and Obi-Wan maybe but it could never team up with Anakin so mad.

Sasche
27 April 2003, 07:40 PM
Without any evidence, only a gut feeling, I believe that the two would not have beaten Dooku. It would have been a close fight, but due to Anakin's flaws, it never could have happened.
I've heard many people say something along the lines of "if Anakin hadn't rushed in angry..."
Well, the fact remains that he did. And always would. Thats who he was. So, while Obi Wan was good, he wouldn't have been able to make up for Anakin.

Dalla Madine
7 May 2003, 12:55 PM
if it wasn't for ANAKIN!!! He messed it up and hurt himslef! Genius that he is!!! 8o Anyhoozles, it's a two-on-one fight....one skilled and one that needs to learn how to listen! But if Anakin hadn't screwed up they definatly could have beat Count Dooku!

-Dalla Madine- :daala:

[rant off/]

Silent
8 May 2003, 06:49 PM
Oh, I think that Obi-Wan and Stumpy could have taken the old coot, or at least make him retreat: sure, Dooku could have tried some Force skills on them, but if he nailed Anakin then Obi-Wan would have had a good shot at him and vice versa. By that I mean using the Force takes some concentration, and if you drop your guard to use it in any extensive way then you'd better make sure nobody will catch you with your pants down.

As for straight dueling, I figure that Dooku would have been at a bit of a disadvantage because he was a classical duelist, which inherently mean that it's just you and you opponent; if you have more then one attacker then you have to make some adjustments to your style pretty quickly. I'm not saying that it would have crippled him, I'm just saying that it wouldn't have been his area of expertise.

Crymoon
9 May 2003, 01:19 AM
If they could have defeated Dooku before the great green jumping ball appeared they would have done so... If they haven't it means they couldn't... :)

As for the classical style of dueling although it was centered on one one fights it wasn't limited to those. I'm currently working on a translation of an old English tratise about sword fighting and some moves as described as necessary when dealing with more then one opponent.

Kanner Ra'an
11 May 2003, 06:44 AM
Obi wan and Anakin would have beaten Dooku hands down if they had worked together. Of course Anakin did they whiny brat routine and rushed straight into a fistful of lightning. Has anyone else noticed that in Ep II Anakin is ten years older, but still as annoying as in Ep I.

Crymoon
11 May 2003, 11:11 PM
HAve you noticed that we have here a lot o posts saying yes they would beat him if... they work togather... Anakin wasn't such a hothead... etc... the fact is that due to Anakins mentality they would never beat Dooku... Yes they have the skills and power to do that but not the experience and calmness...
I've been always one to let the good guys win so I'm saying it with a some difficulty, but sorry Obi with a different Anakin yes... but this one.. no way.

bountyhntr
16 May 2003, 05:36 PM
This is a no brainer. If Yoda hadn't showed up Anakin and Obi-Wan could've easily been dead! They had already been beaten when Yoda got there and proceeded to kick bootay.

Jedi Master Talon
19 May 2003, 09:23 AM
I think they could have beaten him. Like it was stated earlier Obi-Wan was fairly confident about taking out Dooku with Anakins help. I just think Anakin was reckless.

Crymoon
19 May 2003, 10:49 PM
c'mon guys...

Yes Anakin was reckless, but it's exactly how he behaves and that's the reason why they couldn't have beaten Dooku.

If Anakin was less dark sideish in his thoughts and pride they would have beaten him, but he wasn't - as I posted earlier Obi-Wan with a different Anakin (one that is calm and in balance with the Force) could beat Dooku, but with this Any... no way..


:D

Codym
20 May 2003, 03:52 AM
Actually, as reckless as Anakin no doubt was, how would the scene have played out if he had not been forced to abandon Padme enroute? Its obvious this upset him more than the arena battle (note his clear, correct orders during the battle on the clone ship) and I cannot help but wonder if she had been safe, he might have been more lucid in the openning stages of the fight (which was where the duel was lost.)

Crymoon
20 May 2003, 03:57 AM
it's definetely possible.... The more I think about it the more I have to agree with you. If he was sure that Padme was safe , he could have stayed calm and they would have won the duel.

wolverine
21 May 2003, 08:24 AM
Warning!!! thread hyjacking commencing.. (well sort of)......

Back in ROTJ, when emperor palpaltine was hurling force lightning at luke, we see his face scrunch up in rage and primal anger. But all 4 instances when Dooku used it, not once did i see him show any anger...

Anyone know why?

Lucas Carr
21 May 2003, 10:05 AM
Maybe Dooku is a "keep the anger on the inside" person. Having been trained as a Jedi would suggest that possibility.

Nova Spice
21 May 2003, 10:20 AM
Anyone know why?

I think Lucas may have a point. Although I also tend to believe Dooku is not as evil as everyone believes him to be. IMO, Dooku is being played along with everyone else in the galaxy. Sidious is only using him as a tool to get to Anakin because he knows Dooku has moved past his prime.

I think Dooku isn't angry at Anakin and Obi-Wan because to him, they're just two Jedi. Palpatine, on the other hand, was attempting to turn the son of his prized apprentice (Darth Vader). And when Luke bowed up and refused to turn, Palpatine went all Sithy on him. :D

That's my two cents! :hansolo:

starkiller210
21 May 2003, 01:12 PM
The Second time Anikan went after Dooku he held his own for a while so I would think that yes, Anikan and Obi-wan could of taken. But it was awesome to see Yoda fight:yoda:

Admiral_Atredies
21 May 2003, 01:42 PM
According to most sources, Dooku is literaly rivaled only by Mace, Yoda, and a handful of others in the galaxy when it comes to swordfighting. Also, seeing how he shrugged off each individual relativley easily, the combined forces could not have been much greater, I do believe.

Kanner Ra'an
21 May 2003, 06:44 PM
According to most sources, Dooku is literaly rivaled only by Mace, Yoda, and a handful of others in the galaxy when it comes to swordfighting. Also, seeing how he shrugged off each individual relativley easily, the combined forces could not have been much greater, I do believe.

True, but the numbers game is always hard to acount for. In WWII the russians won the war. Not because they had greatly skilled fighters or technology like the Germans, but because they had bodies. In this case both Obi wan and Anakin are both respected fighters themselves. Thats why i said that together they might have defeated him. Look at the Darth Mual vs Qui Gon and Obi fight. Maul probably would have won if he fought them alone too.

Crymoon
21 May 2003, 10:52 PM
IMHO he just wasn't angry at them...

HOW CAN YOU BE BOTHERED BY TWO FLIES...?

(Sith, it's not Friday.. get back to sleep)..

Kuag
26 May 2003, 12:23 PM
Considering Anakin was completely inept when it came to do anything as a team, I don't see anyway that he would have aided Obi. Anakin would have likely been jumping in the way, even if he wasn't angry.

Looking at Maul handle Obi and Qui, who theoretically should have easily outdone him, makes me think that there's no way that the Anakin/Obi team would have beat Dooku. Beyond that, Obi probably wasn't well aware of Dooku's being trained in the ways of the Sith when he thought he and Anakin could take him. A dark jedi is one thing, a sith lord/dark jedi is another. Anyway, why worry about it, if they had beaten Dooku we couldn't have seen Yoda fight, and WoTC couldn't have made a big issue of trying to throw lightning back at people and catch it in your hands.