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View Full Version : The Official Unifying Force Speculation Thread (Warning! Spoilers Likely!)



Nova Spice
12 May 2003, 04:25 PM
http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2003/04/news20030429.html

The link above is to an article on the final NJO book dubbed The Unifying Force . It is to be written by James Luceno and according to someone at Del Rey, could be well over seven hundred pages long!

Below is the preliminary summary for the finale:


SPOILERS!





SPOILERS!



SPOILERS!


SPOILERS!



The New Jedi Order series of bestselling novels nears its end. Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia Organa Solo, their children, and their comrades in the Galactic Alliance rally for their last stand against the enemy that threatens not only the galaxy, but the Force itself.

The stage is set for endgame: Luke, Mara and Jacen desperately try to recruit an unwilling ally for the Jedi's final campaign against the Yuuzhan Vong. Han and Leia learn that hundreds of high-ranking Alliance prisoners face slaughter in a sacrifice to the enemy's bloodthirsty gods. And a lone space station is all that stands between the Alliance headquarters on Mon Calamari and endless waves of enemy forces waging their most decisive assault.

The Jedi's alliances throughout the galaxy are being tested by rogue factions determined to deploy a lethal weapon that will exterminate the Yuuzhan Vong ... and perhaps countless other species. And among the Yuuzhan Vong themselves, the threat of revolt escalates as the oppressed underclass and powerful officials alike fear their Supreme Overlord's mad actions.

There's no turning back for either the Galactic Alliance or the Yuuzhan Vong. Too much has been sacrificed and too much is at stake. Now, nothing can stand in the way of seizing victory ... or facing annihilation.

After reviewing this information, I have come to a few hypotheses concerning the text of the above summary:

-The "unwilling ally" could possibly be the rogue planet Zonama Sekot or perhaps a final faction to join the GFFA. Maybe the Hutts or the Corporate Sector Authority?
-Something has to occur between Refugee and The Unifying Force that results in the capture of Alliance leaders? Could these officials be members of the assorted Fleet Groups, such as Wedge Antilles, Garm Bel Iblis, Keyan Farlander, etc? Or is it more probable that these prisoners are members of the newly reformed Jedi Council, such as Triebakk, Cal Omas, Ta'laam Ranth, etc?
-The lethal weapon certainly is Alpha Red as depicted in Destiny's Way. And I imagine the Bothans may be the ones behind using it, especially with ar'krai being called into effect.

starkiller210
12 May 2003, 05:17 PM
This book is going to be awesome, I'm going to have to get it

wolverine
13 May 2003, 03:12 AM
<<-Something has to occur between Refugee and The Unifying Force that results in the capture of Alliance leaders?>>

It just says high ranking alliance prisoners. But... you cold be right.

Or maybe the ally is the chiss?

ElfWord
31 May 2003, 04:59 PM
The unwilling ally is likely to be either Zonoma Sekot or the Chiss.

Anyone think the lone space station could possibly be Centerpoint? What would the implications of this be?

Will this novel be where we see Nom Anor's return to power? Will he be able to keep it? I find it hard to believe that any sort of peaceful resolution could occur with him at the head of the Yuuzhan Vong.

Cakhmaim
2 June 2003, 09:19 PM
I cannot wait to see how this series end. Even though the NJO are enjoyable I am anxious to see what the new Galaxy is going to be like.

As fo rthe Alliance prisoners, I think a safe and easy guess would be the ones the captured when the took over Coruscant. Not everybody could flee, and Coruscant was full of Alliance leaders.

Jim Williams
3 June 2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by ElfWord
The unwilling ally is likely to be either Zonoma Sekot or the Chiss.

Anyone think the lone space station could possibly be Centerpoint? What would the implications of this be?

Will this novel be where we see Nom Anor's return to power? Will he be able to keep it? I find it hard to believe that any sort of peaceful resolution could occur with him at the head of the Yuuzhan Vong.

Centerpoint has carefully been ignored for awhile now hasn't it? Hmmm. As for Nom, I still think a major obstacle to peace is that the Jedi will have to broker peace with him. I really feel like two Jedi, Jacen and another, might duel because Jacen is willing to negotiate peace and the other wants Nom dead for revenge.

Master Tryka
4 June 2003, 12:13 PM
I really feel like two Jedi, Jacen and another, might duel because Jacen is willing to negotiate peace and the other wants Nom dead for revenge.

What if the final duel is Jaina, still kinda hell bent for revenge, and Jacen? as was alluded to in all of Dark Journey? Or, Jacen AND Jaina want peace, but Kyp want revenge, and Jaina and Kyp fight?

wolverine
4 June 2003, 01:08 PM
Does anyone actually think Nom anor will actually manage to overthrow the supreme overlord??

Jim Williams
4 June 2003, 03:45 PM
Does anyone actually think Nom anor will actually manage to overthrow the supreme overlord??

For the record, yes I do. As a matter of fact, I think Nom may even kill him.


What if the final duel is Jaina, still kinda hell bent for revenge, and Jacen? as was alluded to in all of Dark Journey? Or, Jacen AND Jaina want peace, but Kyp want revenge, and Jaina and Kyp fight?

I could go with the Kyp idea, but he's finally come around to Luke';s way of thinking and I don't know if he's still got it in him to go that route.
Jacen and Jaina though....mmmmm. But not likely. IMO.

Nova Spice
7 June 2003, 07:42 PM
What if the final duel is Jaina, still kinda hell bent for revenge, and Jacen? as was alluded to in all of Dark Journey? Or, Jacen AND Jaina want peace, but Kyp want revenge, and Jaina and Kyp fight?

As Jim pointed out, no way. This is quite far-fetched at this point in the series. The character development of Kyp has been rigorous throughout the series and it seems he has come full-circle in his idealogy at this point. Kyp is no enemy of the Skywalkers or the Solos.


For the record, yes I do. As a matter of fact, I think Nom may even kill him.

I guess I'm still in the camp that Shimrra will duel Jacen in a duel to end all duels. I'm hoping we see something similar to the end of Return of the Jedi, but of course this time it is Jacen, not Luke. I'm hoping Nom Anor will survive to plague the heroes another day.

And I believe Shelly Shapiro stated a year or more back, that the end of the NJO would hardly be the end of the Vong. They're here to stay, in some form or fashion. Perhaps it is Ben Skywalker's destiny to rid the galaxy of them?

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 03:11 AM
This is quite far-fetched at this point in the series. The character development of Kyp has been rigorous throughout the series and it seems he has come full-circle in his idealogy at this point. Kyp is no enemy of the Skywalkers or the Solos.


I totally agree Nova and Jim, I was just going off of the whole part in Dark Journey(I think) where Jaina envisions herself fighting Kyp. I know that may have been resolved by the end of that novel where Kyp more or less brought her back from the little dark walk she took. Maybe it would have been Kyp who wants to make peace (completeing his development and all) and Jaina being outraged at HIM of all people suggesting or wanting it. I know its out there a ways, but as my poor players would tell ya, I'm huge into foreshadowing and I would just love to see something like that that no one expects. After all, how many jaws dropped when they heard, "No, I am your father"?

Jim Williams
8 June 2003, 09:36 AM
Well, it could happen...

bhannah_3
9 June 2003, 06:05 AM
Well I know that the chances of it happening are absolutely zero, but how about a scenarion in which the Vong win in the end and the GFFA is defeated? The survivors then have to flee the galaxy (mmm, "trag-tag fugative fleet", are you allowed to rip-off a rip-off?).

The epilogue could feature a very old Ben Skywalker recording the history of the events that led to their venture into the depths of inter-galactic space. His opening words are, of course, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far way ...."

Nova Spice
9 June 2003, 12:13 PM
The epilogue could feature a very old Ben Skywalker recording the history of the events that led to their venture into the depths of inter-galactic space. His opening words are, of course, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far way ...."

That stirs something in me......heh, nice way of phrasing it. Although I think I'd rather see the GFFA win and then the book end with Ben saying those words. But then again, the NJO has been chock full of surprises and it does seem next to impossible for the good guys to pull this one off....

ElfWord
17 June 2003, 10:23 AM
Some other options for the unwilling ally:
Hutts, they have a lot of resources at their disposal and would be interested in getting revenge on the Yuuzhan Vong. Joining the GA might be tough for their pride though.

Callista, I'm willing to accept pretty much any option just to see her make an appearance in the NJO.

The Falannassi, I think they're a good canidate if it weren't for that they haven't been encountered before. Now that I'm typing this, its got me thinking. What if the Falannassi found and settled on Zonoma Sekot? Both want to be essentially alone, it seems like a good match to me.

I can't see Shimrra getting overthrown without dying. Maybe Nom will do it (doubtful), or more likely a Jedi, with Nom Anor able to step in and pick up the pieces afterwards. This kinds of ties in with the Shamed Ones' belief that the Jeedai will liberate them and help them rise to power.

By the way, nice phrasing indeed bhannah_3. That was very well put, and a vivid scene for all the shortness of it's length.

Nova Spice
19 June 2003, 08:25 PM
Hutts, they have a lot of resources at their disposal and would be interested in getting revenge on the Yuuzhan Vong. Joining the GA might be tough for their pride though.

Maybe. Although I think Balance Point and Edge of Victory II: Rebirth made it clear that the Hutts were with the New Republic (currently the Galactic Alliance). I think, by this point, they're most definitely a willing ally.


Callista, I'm willing to accept pretty much any option just to see her make an appearance in the NJO.

I think Callista is gone. I don't ever look for her to return and not at this point in the conflict. I could be wrong, but I think with only three books left, bringing Callista back would cause way too much emotional turmoil to be resolved between her and Luke and Mara.


The Falannassi, I think they're a good canidate if it weren't for that they haven't been encountered before. Now that I'm typing this, its got me thinking. What if the Falannassi found and settled on Zonoma Sekot? Both want to be essentially alone, it seems like a good match to me.

Now this idea sounds interesting. I'm beginning to think that Zonama Sekot may not be so willing to join the Galactic Alliance because of it's desire to move away from violence. The Fallanassi would only enhance that IMO. Good idea. ;)


I can't see Shimrra getting overthrown without dying. Maybe Nom will do it (doubtful), or more likely a Jedi, with Nom Anor able to step in and pick up the pieces afterwards. This kinds of ties in with the Shamed Ones' belief that the Jeedai will liberate them and help them rise to power.

I see a final duel between Shimmra and Jacen Solo. Winner takes all (ala Return of the Jedi). Nom, I feel will survive the series. He's the type of enemy that just doesn't die. I have a feeling he'll survive to antagonize the heroes down the road. ;)

CaamasiJedi49
23 June 2003, 05:48 AM
I think that it is possible for shirma to survive, but not very posible. What I think will happen is that after his death, the vong with have a civil war and split between loyalist (to shirma) and radicals (Nom Anors group). This scenario with the vong has happened countless times in history (both real world and Star Wars), so its quite possible the future will hold another galactic civil war, except the vong will be going through it this time.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

Nova Spice
29 July 2003, 08:43 AM
Confirmed at www.theforce.net:

The back cover of The Unifying Force has been seen.




SPOILERS!




SPOILERS!


SPOILERS!


SPOILERS!



SPOILERS!


SPOILERS!

SPOILERS!

SPOILERS!

On the back cover, super-imposed over Han and Leia's face, is a Mandalorian helmet. Boba Fett is back baby! Just in time for the explosive conclusion to the New Jedi Order! :D

Jedirogue10
3 September 2003, 10:44 AM
In The Final Prophacy Wedge leads a strike force to re-take a system but ends up traped in Vong space. So he's probably the one they have to save. I doubt that there are any non-Vong left on Courscant.

Nova Spice
3 September 2003, 03:28 PM
In The Final Prophacy Wedge leads a strike force to re-take a system but ends up traped in Vong space. So he's probably the one they have to save.

Indeed. It seems Fleet Group Three is preparing to retake and secure Bilbringi under Wedge's command in The Final Prophecy. I've been saying for a couple months that Wedge is probably one of those that is captured and the Vong are preparing to slaughter in The Unifying Force. It is also very conceivable that Wedge will be killed in the next two novels.


I doubt that there are any non-Vong left on Courscant.

Not sure where this came from, but I disagree with you big time on this one. As described in Traitor, there are an estimated nine hundred billion survivors left on Coruscant. I don't think the Vong could eradicate that many people in a place such as Coruscant, in under two years.

There are billions still alive and in hiding on Yuuzhan'tar. That's a guarantee. ;)

By the way, Welcome to the Holonet Jedirogue10!

Jeskan
4 September 2003, 03:19 PM
Im almost positive that Jacen and Shimra will fight. Maybe during the duel he realizes that Shimra is the Force-Sensitive equivalent of a Vong (like i brought up in my thread about Shimra).

Maybe at the end of the novel the Vong's "side" of the force merges with our own, which in the process unifys the force.

Kanner Ra'an
4 September 2003, 03:53 PM
Id like to see the two remain serperate. The idea few people can do it makes it seem more unique for those who do. It also appeals to me that their are some things that every jedi cant do.

Major T. Phennir
4 September 2003, 04:13 PM
I haven't read too many of the NJO books but maybe the Vong will have a civil war and destroy each other.

Kanner Ra'an
4 September 2003, 06:19 PM
I haven't read too many of the NJO books but maybe the Vong will have a civil war and destroy each other.

In a way that is happening. Its not so much a civil war as it is a minor uprising though. Led by Nom Anor. Unlikly though that is has the potential to destroy the Vong, or even do areciable damage.

Darthspectre84
5 September 2003, 03:12 AM
Remember that they are working on Post NJO books already so the storyline is set.
I prefer not have that typical you know..."one jedi agaisnt the Emperor of the galaxy thing again now" :) besides...Shimrra is huge! And we still dont know the depth of his pwoers.
My view is that a small rebellion will happen that will freeze the invasion in its tracks. In the end the galaxy will be like Vong owning half the galaxy...resting and some fighting with eachother. Whiel the other races (that survived) must learn to live with the Vong. but some would attack the Vong and try to cause the war to start again. That would be an interesting storyline. Where everything is tense...that one shot from your own side might lead a war that could have destroyed the galaxy itself....cool! :D

Darthspectre84
17 September 2003, 01:34 PM
Oh and Nova Spice can you tell me when the next NJO book is coming out? is it october?

Nova Spice
17 September 2003, 03:16 PM
Sure thing Spectre.

The Final Prophecy hits shelves September 29th. The end-game is in sight.

And the final novel, The Unifying Force hits bookstores on November 4th. Its been a hell of a five year ride. And from what I've heard, the conclusion will not disappoint in any sense of the word. ;)

Darthspectre84
18 September 2003, 08:17 AM
Thanks Nova :) ia m just anxious about what Shimrra is more like and what Nem Yim is cooking :) not cookies apparently heh. AAnyway soon Final Prophecy is coming so i best gather money :D

Jedi Master Talon
25 September 2003, 07:02 AM
I can't wait till this book comes out because I want to see the Vong get their @$$ kicked.

Darth Fierce
26 September 2003, 07:49 PM
Ever since I first saw the blurb for the upcoming Unifying Force novel, I have been speculating that the unlikely ally to join forces with our heroes will be Nom Anor himself. We see at the end of the Force Heretic novels that Nom is very afraid that he could lose everything if Shimrra eventually conquers the whole of the galaxy, and although Nom might at first see joining our heroes only as a way to have the Shamed One continue to fight for him, he might finally come to believe in the words that he preaches to the Shamed Ones about the Jedi. Then we would see that the Vong, as has been indicated at times, actually do exist inside the Force, thus unifying this phenomenon.

I find the above theory more likely than the Hutts joining forces with our heroes. At the current time in the novels, the Hutts are running for their lives after betraying the Vong, and are thus, virtually out of the game. However, if the rumor of Boba Fett being in the novel is true, he may join with our heroes on the Hutts' behalf.

The Chiss will likely assign more forces to help our heroes, for after the event of the Force Heretic novels, I don't really see them as unwilling allies anymore.

As for the weapon that could potentially destroy the Vong and many other species, perhaps Zonama Sekot goes bad, despite our heroes best efforts, and begins taking out its aggression through the Dark Side on those it sees as enemies. I think it would be kind of cool to see Luke and other heroes, perhaps including Yuuzhan Vong who join up with the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, confronting the planet in hopes of redeeming it.

Anyway, that's my two cents on this matter. Let me know what you think.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Darthspectre84
27 September 2003, 03:30 AM
uhm i can see wher eyour speculation goes....but on the second note about Sekot going bad and the Vong joining forces. Well the Vong would not, theya re too stubborn a people. Like in i think it was Behind enemy Lines 2, you know Lord Nyax. There were 3 sides, so if Sekot goes bad then it would only be the Jedi who would go in to stop it.

Also about Nom Anor joining...well i dont know about that. He has alot to blame the Jedi for...cause after all it was them that put him in his uhm current situation ;) plus he is tyring to go to power. Remeber the dream he had in FH3. That was kind of spooky...

Darth Fierce
27 September 2003, 04:21 AM
On the note about Yuuzhan Vong joining with our heroes to confront a bad Zonama Sekot, I didn't mean the type of Vong that are loyal to Shimrra. We have been seeing throughout the novels that there are some Vong with enough open-mindedness to see that the quest to conquer or destroy the SW galaxy is wrong. I'm thinking if some Vong would be along with our heroes to confront Zonama Sekot, they would most likely be Shamed One defectors to the GFFA. See what I mean?

Darth Fierce :vader:

wolverine
27 September 2003, 04:31 AM
Which actualy brings up a good question...

Would the GA actually accept 'turncoats' from the vong?

Darth Fierce
27 September 2003, 05:22 AM
I would think that the GFFA would accept Vong defectors, somewhat due to the fact that they might be able to provide information about Shimrra and his forces that our heroes do not know.

As for my idea of Nom Anor becoming the unexpected ally of our heroes, nothing with what I've noted in the post above would keep Nom Anor from becoming the leader of the Vong at the end of the upcoming novel. Thus, as unwilling as he might seem at first in joining Luke and the bunch in fighting Shimrra's forces, I could see Nom being able to understand the benefits of such an union and thus putting away the grudges he held before. I took a creative writing class when I was back in college, and about the first thing my teacher taught the class was that characters need to go through a period of change in the course of a story (or in this case, a series of stories) or the character is little more than the scenery. Thus, in my mind, Nom Anor could change into someone respectable, and lead the Vong into a new golden age in relative peace with their SW neighbors.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Darthspectre84
28 September 2003, 04:54 AM
Well the GA might accept the defectors but it will not be pretty. The members of the GA cannot take their frustration on the Yuuzhan Vopng themselves so they would take it on the defectors. And it wont be a very peaceful union....cause there has been alot of loss and all.

I would find 2 things interesting:
1)Shimraa does not die and the Vong and GA remain on their sides of their territoy due to a very fragile peace treaty. Both sides (well Hutts maybe) trying to restart the conflict and wipe out the other side.

2)Shimraa does die, and the Vong are shattered into many separate factions. Cause it was said by the Vong that back in their galaxy caste was agaisnt caste, domain against domain.

The first option would not be good for the Shamed One Heretics, the second they have a better chance of surviving.

Nova Spice
28 September 2003, 11:48 AM
Shimraa does not die and the Vong and GA remain on their sides of their territoy due to a very fragile peace treaty. Both sides (well Hutts maybe) trying to restart the conflict and wipe out the other side.

Well, I'm one of those of the opinion that Shimrra may very well not die. Sue Rostoni and Shelly Shapiro have both declared that the conclusion of the New Jedi Order would not see the end of the Yuuzhan Vong threat.

As far as both sides holding their territory, I think it's safe to say the Galactic Alliance will never regain all that they have lost (and I am not referring to the obvious worlds such as Yuuzhan'tar, Ithor, and Sernpidal). The fact remains that at least 65% of the galaxy has been conquered by the Yuuzhan Vong. Considering a decent chunk of that percentage contains worlds forever altered, it is not feasible that GA will ever reclaim such vast amounts of territory.

The war has been a purge in the purest and bloodiest sense of the word. Entire species have been wiped out, and huge portions of populations have been completely obliterated. This coincides with my belief that there will never again be a galactic government. It seems that confederations and alliances now mark the current Star Wars galaxy. With populations so devastated and so many worlds under enemy control, galactic government has been permanently dissolved. Particularly now that Coruscant has been destroyed. ;)

Darth Fierce
28 September 2003, 12:18 PM
A bleak outlook, Nova Spice. May I ask for your interpretation on the fate of the Jedi, then (e.g., will the order survive, or will we see a further split into Jedi factions)?

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
28 September 2003, 08:07 PM
A bleak outlook, Nova Spice. May I ask for your interpretation on the fate of the Jedi, then (e.g., will the order survive, or will we see a further split into Jedi factions)?

My outlook on the Jedi is perhaps, different, than the other esteemed members of these boards.

Will the Order survive?

-Yes and No. The Jedi themselves will survive (as an ideology and as a group). While many have fallen in the Yuuzhan Vong invasion (Miko Reglia, Daeshara'cor, Wurth Skidder, Dorsk 82, Anakin Solo, Ganner Rhysode, and Vergere to name a few), the Jedi will survive the onslaught of Shimrra's crusades.
The Order itself will not. We have had a subconscious false pretense in the Star Wars community that Luke Skywalker has "re-built" the Jedi Order. He has not. He has merely "re-established" what was lost. It has become increasingly more clear that the invasion has forced the Jedi to evolve. Through the teachings of Vergere (to both Jacen and Luke), as well as the Vong themselves, the Jedi have been bombarded with a torrent of new philosophies and ideas. Luke tried to re-build the Jedi Order (old), but it seems that the Will of Force has rejected that idea. With the fall of the New Republic, the Jedi are being forced to become a New Jedi Order. While the old order protected the Republic and upheld its ideals, this new order will not follow in those footsteps. This seems to be quite a positive thing, considering that the downfall of the old order was primarily due to its mandate to a corrupt government.

Will we see a further split in Jedi factions?

-Doubtful. Kyp Durron has come around full circle since the beginning of the invasion. With the restoration of the Jedi Council, the Jedi have found the unity that they had lacked ever since Skywalker founded the Praxeum on Yavin IV.
-With Jacen Solo's new understanding of the Force, the once lost ideals of the old order have started their long-awaited recovery. While the New Jedi Order will not have the same mandate as their purged predecessors, they will have the same set of principles. The Jedi have finally come together. Out of the ashes of the Republic, the Empire, and the New Republic, a truly new order has been born.

Long Live the Jedi. For the Republic is truly dead.

Darthspectre84
29 September 2003, 08:11 AM
A good interpretation Nova Spice :) i applaud you. Should Shimraa survive and a very thin peace comes between the sdies then i would iamgine elements from the Yuuzhan Vong and the denziens of the Galaxy would try to restart the war. People like Rodians, Bothans, hutts and even a number of Jedi who might have gone down the dark path.

My question is that now we have finally seen the Unknown regions abit more in detail. Would we see more evil races perhaps. Cause Jag Fel said that they faced things that made the Yevethan great Purge look like a picnic (ok exaggerating that word :P)

Also anyone notice the pattern of Vong territory...you suppose they will keep most of it. Out one side of the gaalxy, then making a detour to hutt space then going round Bothan Space and finally reaching Coruscant. Also i dont think Corellia has been invaded yet has it? cause financially the galaxy should be in turmoil since the Core Worlds are going fast.

Kanner Ra'an
29 September 2003, 02:07 PM
Should Shimraa survive and a very thin peace comes between the sdies then i would iamgine elements from the Yuuzhan Vong and the denziens of the Galaxy would try to restart the war. People like Rodians, Bothans, hutts and even a number of Jedi who might have gone down the dark path.

I think the citizens of the galaxy would be happy having just survived the onslaught. This was not the empire. Everybody was fearing for basic survival. Doesn't sound to me like any real effort would be made to resart the war........... on the GA side.

I dont see the Yuuzhan Vong accepting any kind of peace though. Looking at what we've seen their beliefs are still as potent as the day the invasion began. I think to see an end to the war we're going to have to see the GA break the back of Yuuzhan Vong society. Make it immpossible for them to keep fighting. After all, they have been winning the war at every step. A few defeats to thousands of important victories. And their fanatics. They will fight till they have no hope and then that will make them fight even harder. This is their homeland in their minds, and they will not be dettered by vermin (Wow, i sounds like im talking IC for my yuuzhan vong character)

I do see noteworthy (appeared in the books) worlds being reclaimed. I dont know about coruscant though. A thought on that. Would anyone else but the Yuuzhan Vong make their capital in the middle of the most well defended area of the galaxy, where their meeting the most resistance ,and have the deep core, over which they have no control, right next door. Doesn't sound like the safest place to me.

Nova Spice
29 September 2003, 05:53 PM
Also anyone notice the pattern of Vong territory...you suppose they will keep most of it. Out one side of the gaalxy, then making a detour to hutt space then going round Bothan Space and finally reaching Coruscant. Also i dont think Corellia has been invaded yet has it? cause financially the galaxy should be in turmoil since the Core Worlds are going fast.

The pattern of conquest has been one of psychological effect. While I do firmly believe that the Vong will hold on to most of their worlds (passages early on in The Final Prophecy reveal that they've lost some key worlds back to the Galactic Alliance), it is inevitable for the Yuuzhan Vong to control their territories without more warriors and ships.

As far as Corellia goes, it has yet to be conquered. Brief skirmishes have occurred there, but thus far, the Corellians have been able to repel/avoid any real attempt at total conquest. Curious, eh?

wolverine
30 September 2003, 10:04 AM
I think they are wary of Center point station.

One thing i would like to know.. What do they (if anything) know of the planetary repulsors? And would they work on a vong ship??

Solo666
30 September 2003, 11:44 AM
After the conversation between Sekot and Jacen, Jacen is much more likely to be the "unwilling ally" than the Living Planet. However, the Chiss might be it. Couldn't the weapon be a Sun Crusher-esque Star Destroyer? Alpha Red was made specifically to be anti-Vong-I doubt it would hurt most species. It could be a Force Weapon-Maybe Kyp went ballistic and tried to collapse the galaxy
Anybody realize the Jedi captives could be Luke, Mara, Jacen and Saba returning from the Unknown Regions and getting caught?
Maybe Nom Anor is Force-Sensitive? That would explain his vision
The Dark Lord of the Sith returns

Nova Spice
30 September 2003, 05:25 PM
After the conversation between Sekot and Jacen, Jacen is much more likely to be the "unwilling ally" than the Living Planet. However, the Chiss might be it. Couldn't the weapon be a Sun Crusher-esque Star Destroyer? Alpha Red was made specifically to be anti-Vong-I doubt it would hurt most species. It could be a Force Weapon-Maybe Kyp went ballistic and tried to collapse the galaxy

I disagree greatly about Jacen being the "unwilling ally." Those two words are two vague to be a desciption of one of the, if not the, main character of the series.

It also doesn't seem to describe his personality after Traitor and Destiny's Way. Jacen Solo is a totally different creation now; he's hardly unwilling and ally understates his status with the Galactic Alliance.

As far as the superweapon being a "Sun Crusher-esque Star Destroyer," I find that far-fetched at best. While there has been no evidence that another superweapon exists, particularly in the form of a Star Destroyer, it has been readily apparent since Destiny's Way, that Alpha Red is certainly going to be the "Weapon to end all Super-weapons." It is blatantly obvious that Traest Kre'fey and those like him (Dif Scaur, Sien Sovv) would be more than willing to unleash Alpha Red if it comes down to win/lose.

As far as Kyp "going ballistic and collapsing the galaxy," I have to admit that I have no clue as to what you mean? First off, that's not in his nature now either. He's changed one-hundred and eighty degrees since Vector Prime alone. And even so, he does not possess the power to "collapse the galaxy."


Anybody realize the Jedi captives could be Luke, Mara, Jacen and Saba returning from the Unknown Regions and getting caught?

The summary doesn't say Jedi captives to my knowledge. It specifically states "high-ranking Alliance officers." I'm convinced that's leaders of the military/Galactic Alliance, particularly people like Wedge Antilles, Cal Omas, Triebakk, Garm Bel Iblis, etc. So I don't think you'll find Luke, Mara, and Jacen as captives.


Maybe Nom Anor is Force-Sensitive? That would explain his vision

I'm currently reading The Final Prophecy, so I'll go ahead and let you know that this theory is not correct. Nom is definitely not Force-sensitive! :D

Vanger Chevane
1 October 2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by wolverine
I think they are wary of Center point station.

One thing i would like to know.. What do they (if anything) know of the planetary repulsors? And would they work on a vong ship??

Absolutely. Once Leia Solo managed to covince the Hapans to commit a fleet to take on the Vong, Thrackan Sal-Solo fired Centerpoint, smashing the Vong fleet and a sizable portion of the Hapans as well.

The Vong probly know that it can be a very powerful weapon, and may be trying to achieve thru a blockade what they can't with brute force.


They might not be at a point like in the Correllia Trilogy, where it could be used to vape Yuuzan'tar by forcing the local star to go nova, or grab planets through Hyperspace (as is presumed is it's original purpose - build the modern Correllian system), but a repulsor that bloody big can probably be a navigational nightmare for any Vong fleet entering the system.

Jim Williams
2 October 2003, 12:23 PM
I read a little of Nova Spice's Final Prophecy thread, but I had to stop. Anyway, I had a thought which may or may not have been delved into in that book.

What if Zenoma Sekot is some kind of Vong lifeform that fled their galaxy or was sent ahead as a scout? Or something like that...?!!!?

Nova Spice
2 October 2003, 07:05 PM
What if Zenoma Sekot is some kind of Vong lifeform that fled their galaxy or was sent ahead as a scout? Or something like that...?!!!?

An entirely plausible idea. Though, there is something that has just recently crossed my mind. Considering the information garnered in Force Heretic III: Reunion and The Final Prophecy, I've actually formed a hypothesis that may be controversial.

Sekot, the actual spirit of the Living Planet, is not who we think it is. I believe that Sekot may very well be....Yun-Yuuzhan, the creator god.

Kanner Ra'an
2 October 2003, 07:08 PM
Wow, that certainly never crossed my mind. That would explain a lot of things though, specifically the great interest the Yuuzhan Vong have in Sekot, though i find it odd that they would try kill it if they reconised it as such. Definatly something to think about.

Jim Williams
3 October 2003, 07:16 AM
I believe that Sekot may very well be....Yun-Yuuzhan, the creator god.

OOOOOOH!

!@#$%^&*(

I can't believe I read that! Great idea (and by all means I'm not upset, just good-natured venting)

That would be a STUNNER of a climax! The creator god telling the YV to STOP (or whatever...)

Darthspectre84
3 October 2003, 12:50 PM
Ok from that hypothesis lets take it a step further.

Now perhaps long ago Sekot came into awareness and was a great and powerful being. The Vong lived on Sekot and a type of symbiotic relationship was formed between the two. Perhaps a Vong started a cult which believed in conquering the galaxy in the name of thei God. Sekot did not like this idea and perhaps banished the Vong....where they some how managed to wind up in a distant galaxy. There they turn to pain and embrace of that. Also they have a fanatically obsession with living creatures over mechanical things. In this new galaxy they slowly forget about their original galaxy. Except those of that reach the title of Overlord.

Now after exhausting the new galaxy with wars and strip mining (in a sense) they turn to fight each other. Seeing this the Overlord makes a prophecy that they must now go to the Promised Land. This is to give the Vong a sense of direction. They reach but the Overlord does not want to reveal to his people the truth of their origins so he blankets all information related to Sekot, cause he knows that if the Vong people knew they would not go to war as their God will tell them not to. So i see it as about power to the Overlords, should the Gods speak to the people the Overlords and priestly caste will suffer cause it will be seen as they are no longer needed.

So everything that makes the Vong fanatics, that the SW galaxy is theres...is in fact truth. So if the Vong are Sekots original inhabitants..then i doubt Sekot might take them back so...uhm willingly. Cause Sekot does not like to cause Pain, while the Vong thrive in it. So....i leave the stand to Nova Spice :)

Solo666
4 October 2003, 08:41 AM
One question: Remember the crystal bridge from "Traitor"
Did they even see somthing similar on Zonoma?

Nova Spice
5 October 2003, 11:02 AM
One question: Remember the crystal bridge from "Traitor"

The "rainbow" bridge over Yuuzhan'tar is mentioned again in The Final Prophecy, though it is by Nen Yim remarking on its beauty.

As far as I know, Luke and crew saw no such thing on Zonama Sekot in Force Heretic III: Reunion.

Solo666
6 October 2003, 11:15 AM
I'm currently reading The Final Prophecy, so I'll go ahead and let you know that this theory is not correct. Nom is definitely not Force-sensitive!

Nova Spice, I think right now Tahiri and Jaina are the main characters and I saw no evidence Nom Anor could not be Force-Sensitive
Also, I wonder if he'll stay as Yu'shaa and Nom Anor at once?

how do I put a box-thingy around that?

Darth Fierce
6 October 2003, 02:49 PM
Arrrgh...from what I read in The Final Prophecy, it looks like my theory that Nom Anor is going to turn into a good guy in The Unifying Force is going down in flames. Die Nom Anor, die!!! Nor will Zonama Sekot likely turn bad.

That rant aside, I'm also beginning to wonder if some of our favorite enemies might indeed be force-sensitive. Some spooky moments happened in The Final Prophecy that leads me to believe that we're going to find out that either Nom Anor or Shimrra actually does have a connection to the Force that has been hidden throughout the series.

Oh well, back to the drawing board on what's going to happen in The Unifying Force. By the way, I like the theory that Zonama Sekot may actually be at least part of Yun-Yuuzhan, Nova Spice. You might be on the mark there.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Kanner Ra'an
6 October 2003, 04:47 PM
I agree with Nova Spice. In no way, sense, or form is Nom Anor a vongsensitive. FU are by no means uncommon in the series, but just because Nom is a common character is no reason to beleive hes FS. From what i've read theirs also no evidence to back that up as well.

Nova Spice
6 October 2003, 05:04 PM
Nova Spice, I think right now Tahiri and Jaina are the main characters and I saw no evidence Nom Anor could not be Force-Sensitive

Can you give me any evidence that would lead you to believe he is Force-sensitive? That's what I thought. ;) :)

There has been eighteen novels thus far. The only Vong that's even been hinted at being Force-sensitive is Shimrra. Even if Nom was somehow sensitive to the Force, what purpose would it serve this late in the game? Not only would it distract from the main story arc, it would have no meaning.

Add that to some of the passages in the Force Heretic trilogy and The Final Prophecy, and you can figure out that Nom's "visions" are simply things he makes up; not some "mystical power" granting him scenes from the future. ;)



Also, I wonder if he'll stay as Yu'shaa and Nom Anor at once?

I've thought about this since the end of TFP. I think he's going to attempt to pull off playing Yu'Shaa and still try to be Nom Anor. Something tells me, this may very well be his undoing. ;)


Arrrgh...from what I read in The Final Prophecy, it looks like my theory that Nom Anor is going to turn into a good guy in The Unifying Force is going down in flames. Die Nom Anor, die!!! Nor will Zonama Sekot likely turn bad.

Yea, Nom Anor really turned evil again in TFP. He's definitely not redeemable in my eyes.


Some spooky moments happened in The Final Prophecy that leads me to believe that we're going to find out that either Nom Anor or Shimrra actually does have a connection to the Force that has been hidden throughout the series.

I disagree that Nom is Force-sensitive. Though it was made fairly obvious in Destiny's Way that Shimrra is probably Force-sensiitive. So I agree with you about the Supreme Overlord.


Oh well, back to the drawing board on what's going to happen in The Unifying Force. By the way, I like the theory that Zonama Sekot may actually be at least part of Yun-Yuuzhan, Nova Spice. You might be on the mark there.

Thank you, Fierce. While I am simply making an educated guess on this theory, I think there may at least be some connection between Sekot and the Vong gods. We'll find out in less than a month.

Darth Fierce
7 October 2003, 04:43 AM
Oooo! I know a way of how we can tell if Shimrra is force-sensitive. We'll have Luke walk up to Shimrra with those "ping-pong paddle" things that Luke used to first set up the new Jedi academy and see if Luke gets throwns for a loop. Oh, wait...that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Ping-pong paddle thingies equal "worst use of technology ever." :P

Seriously though, I am beginning to get behind you Nova Spice in thinking that the Supreme Overlord is probably force-sensitive. I guess we have only a few more weeks to find out.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Solo666
7 October 2003, 05:24 PM
Nom had a vision which creeped him- and some readers- out. Sounds like the Force
Who says Nom and Shimmra won't be Sith Lord and Apprentice?
Naturally Anor would try kill the Overlord, but wouldn't that be fun.

Anybody wonder about Boba's role in TUF? What side u think he's on? Chiss would never hire him, but the Vong may try kill him. What's the newest Slave like, anyway?

Will someone tell me how to do that box-thingy for quoting?

Nova Spice
7 October 2003, 06:30 PM
Nom had a vision which creeped him- and some readers- out. Sounds like the Force

Nen Yim also had a vision in The Final Prophecy; was she Force-sensitive? No.

Hell, plenty of non-Force users have visions. Wedge Antilles and Kell Tainer to name a couple.

Visions do not necessarily mean a person is Force-sensitive. Add that to the fact that Nom's "prophecies" have been conjures of his own imagination and it's quickly evident that he has no latent sensitivity to the Force itself.


Who says Nom and Shimmra won't be Sith Lord and Apprentice?

George Lucas for one. Sue Rostoni and Shelly Shapiro (chief editors of the NJO) for another. ;)


Naturally Anor would try kill the Overlord, but wouldn't that be fun.

I think he's going to attempt to do this anyway. Though I feel that Shimrra's demise will ultimately come at the hands of Jacen Solo.


Anybody wonder about Boba's role in TUF? What side u think he's on? Chiss would never hire him, but the Vong may try kill him. What's the newest Slave like, anyway?

This is pure speculation, but that's what this thread was started for anyway. I personally believe Fett is going to be hired by Dif Scaur (Director of NRI) or Admiral Kre'fey to secure Alpha Red without causing too much attention. That, or he's going to finally make amends with Han and join the Galactic Alliance. Hell, it's possible he'll bring in an influx of mercenaries to assist the good guys much like Karrde's brought in the Smuggler's Alliance. Though knowing Fett, I think he'll stick to his lonesome ways.

At any rate, I wouldn't think he'd be siding with the Vong, particularly this late in the story. As far as Slave I, I imagine Fett's still using it. ;)


Will someone tell me how to do that box-thingy for quoting?

Simple. Copy whatever it is you want to quote, hit the QUOTE bar on the Reply page, and then paste. ;)

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:40 PM
That, or he's going to finally make amends with Han and join the Galactic Alliance
Fett does not join with any government, I thought he made that vlear during the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy? His only siding issue would be that if the Vong win he's out of a job, one of very few things that can actually tick him off. Maybe Jaina hires him to fly with Twin Suns in a pivotal space battle. Probabbly not, but that thing about Alpha Red may be right, considering the "superweapon" part. Unless he has a personal claim on a planet, maybe a hide-out on Zonoma?

Darth Fierce
8 October 2003, 03:58 AM
I hate doing this because I hope it won't spoil the story for anyone, but from looking at other sources (e.g., theforce.net), I've heard that Fett might get involved trying to fulfill a contract for the Bothans. From what speculation on theforce.net indicates, our heroes try to place Alpha Red in safe containment where it cannot be used. Fett is hired by the Bothans to retrieve it, and while he initially succeeds, he loses it in a shoot-out and lightsaber fight with Han and Luke. Some say that after The Unifying Force we may never see Fett again (i.e., he dies in the novel).

I personally would like to see Fett make amends with Han in The Unifying Force, rather than the above happening. And I could see Fett getting involved with the Galactic Alliance on behalf of the Hutts. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Major T. Phennir
8 October 2003, 06:29 AM
I hope Fett does not die. I think he is getting a little old to be doing contracts though. He would be in his late fifties right?

Darthspectre84
8 October 2003, 08:18 AM
Some interesting stuff here :) perhaps Boba makes a clone of himself to continue on the legacy ;) :P

I personally hope again that Shimraa does not die, cause it would such a big change from the bad guy dying at the end :) with a Palpatine type ending heh.

I am more interested in this Sekot and Vong development...cause i believe vong tech is very very different from Sekots. Yet....

Nova Spice
8 October 2003, 08:48 AM
Fett does not join with any government, I thought he made that vlear during the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy?

Oh, I'm sure he did, but the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy is widely considered the worst piece of Star Wars literature. The characters portrayed in those novels act almostly completely opposite their established personas.

Fett doesn't talk unless it is essential. Yet you'd think by K.W. Jeter's opinion that Fett could be an auctioneer.

With that in mind, I consider anything that occurred in those three novels irrelevant. And it seems the NJO authors do as well; as nothing from those novels has been touched upon.

Just some food for thought concerning Fett. ;)

Jeskan
8 October 2003, 03:27 PM
I think we are going to see big things for Droma. After reading FH3 have a fealing that he is going to become a very major character, even after NJO. He will probubly reunite his species or brings them to be respected by the rest of the galaxy

Remus Lightforce
8 October 2003, 07:19 PM
Good observations, everyone...let me throw mine out there, as well.

(Read <I>The Final Prophecy</I> yesterday)

The Yuuzhan Vong are losing. That's clear now. So, obviously, they're going to have one last ditch plot device that makes it look like their victory is now clear. Perhaps their own version of Alpha Red?

Jacen seems to have stepped down in importance in The Final Prophecy. He wasn't even in the book. I think he'll have a prominent role in <I>The Unifying Force</I>, but I don't think it will be him dueling Shimrra. In fact, I don't think Shimrra will go down in a duel at all.

One possible scenario....
Shimrra unleashes his full power (stemming from...what? The Force? Maybe...whatever it is that gives him power). Jacen and Tahiri, combining their strength, manage to shut him off. He manages to flee with his life, barely holding on, and stripped of his powers. He goes to his last hope, his faithful agent, Nom Anor, for help. Anor kills him, and lives on.

Okay, so it's farfetched. I doubt it will actually happen. But it's one of the possible scenarios I can see. I find it almost...certain that Shimrra will die. I think it would be bad storytelling if he didn't. Nom Anor is the one we all want to see live.

I'm going to get stoned for this, but Boba Fett <b>should die</b> in this novel. He's getting old. Han Solo is an important character with a complex personality. Boba Fett is just the 'baddest bounty hunter in the galaxy'. I'm not saying this because I hate Boba Fett, on the contrary, I think he <b>deserves</b> a dramatic, heart pounding, fittingly excellently executed death. He shouldn't just shrivel up and die of old age somewhere. No. He needs to go down with a bang. I hope he does.

And yes, the Bounty Hunter trilogy was...horrible. But it's still canon. Star Wars is funny if you think about everything canon.

Remember, Luke didn't destroy the Death Star, Rookie One did!

Solo666
9 October 2003, 06:22 PM
The Bounty Hunter Wars shows his emotion, it is buried but he does feel gratitude, etc. and that he doesn't kill needlessly.
speaing of BHW, who is/was D'har'han???

wolverine
14 October 2003, 02:56 AM
Reading this over on swag, apparently there was a guy asking about other force using orders.

One of those was called the Monks of Shimura... Makes you wonder if they are the overlords or not?!?!?!

Jeskan
14 October 2003, 04:37 PM
I also think that loose ends we might have forgot about or small, obscure scenes that didn't really seem to fit in the story at the time will be resolved. I'm talking about things like Jaina using the force to have the Vong airspeeder analog explode is explained. I think they will elaborate more on Jaina being the Sword of the Jedi. Since DW, they havn't realy mentioned anything about that, havn't they? The visions that Nom Anor had of him with Shimra's eyes is another thing. Are there any other moments like that that I didn't mention? Nova, I'm sure you can give some examples.

Solo666
14 October 2003, 06:14 PM
You are asking Nova, my biggest "Nom Anor is not Force-Sensitive" foe, the one who insists he is not Vongsensitive at all for more visions of Nom's? Personally, I haven't seen any but I haven't read anything between VP and SbS

Jeskan
15 October 2003, 10:52 AM
Why should it matter If Nova thinks ur beliefs are wrong? I think you are about the whole Nom Anor Forece-sensitive thing, alos. I mentioned Nova's name because, from what I've read, hi is the most knowlegdeable about the New Jedi Order series. The question isn't exclussivly for him.

Nova Spice
15 October 2003, 04:28 PM
I also think that loose ends we might have forgot about or small, obscure scenes that didn't really seem to fit in the story at the time will be resolved. I'm talking about things like Jaina using the force to have the Vong airspeeder analog explode is explained. I think they will elaborate more on Jaina being the Sword of the Jedi. Since DW, they havn't realy mentioned anything about that, havn't they? The visions that Nom Anor had of him with Shimra's eyes is another thing. Are there any other moments like that that I didn't mention? Nova, I'm sure you can give some examples.

I agree with ya Jeskan. I also feel that the loose ends will be tied up in the final novel.

-The use of the Force by Jaina on the Vong airspeeder deals heavily with the secret of the Vong's absence in the Force. That means that this will definitely be clarified in TUF.
-The Sword of the Jedi was mentioned once or twice during the Force Heretic trilogy. Look for this factor to become more apparent in TUF, particularly when the final battle goes down. ;)
-As far as Nom Anor's vision, I believe that will be one of the major plotlines of the TUF, so there's no worries on my part whether this vision will come true or not.

Thinking of a few others:
-The secrets of Zonama Sekot and their relation to the Yuuzhan Vong.
-The secrets of the Ryn network and what role they will play.
-The missing Jedi mentioned in Force Heretic I: Remnant; will they be accounted for in the final novel?
-Jacen's destiny. Will his new understanding of the Force tie in with his vision in Balance Point of the galaxy tipping toward eternal darkness?
-The Chiss. We know that Shimrra ordered Hreken Karsh to lead an all out assault on the Chiss in Force Heretic II: Refugee. Will we learn about this and will this play a part?


You are asking Nova, my biggest "Nom Anor is not Force-Sensitive" foe, the one who insists he is not Vongsensitive at all for more visions of Nom's? Personally, I haven't seen any but I haven't read anything between VP and SbS

I guess that's what he is doing, Solo666. While I am not a braggart and am quite a humble person, I would like to point out a fact. It is widely accepted on these boards that my knowledge of the New Jedi Order is second-to-none. While you certainly have the right to your opinions on Nom Anor, I also have a right to mine. And considering that I have a near-complete understanding of the major concepts and underlying themes of the series, my input has graciously been accepted by many of my fellow Holonet members. ;)

And, not to sound trite, but if you haven't read anything between Vector Prime and Star by Star, then you are at a serious disadvantage in any discussion pertaining to some of these subjects. Might ought to read the entire series to gain a more clear understanding of the series. ;)

But alas, let's not move off on a tangent. The input and posts in this thread have been excellent! I love the thoughts and analysis given by everyone. Keep the ideas coming! :D

Solo666
16 October 2003, 05:46 PM
Spice, I know u're a Star Wars genious or whatever but last time I mentioned it I believe you told me that he probably made it up. Unless you weren't really listening to me and thought I was talking of another vision?

Nova Spice
16 October 2003, 07:48 PM
Spice, I know u're a Star Wars genious or whatever but last time I mentioned it I believe you told me that he probably made it up. Unless you weren't really listening to me and thought I was talking of another vision?

I'm definitely no Star Wars genius, though I appreciate the compliment. :D

Nom Anor's visions are "fake." He does make them up and deceives the Shamed Ones into believing he can see the future. His vision at the end of the Force Heretic series only serves to reinforce that. It is blatantly obvious that he so badly wants Shimrra's throne, that he actually perceives himself as Shimrra. It's an extreme form of wishful thinking. We've all had strange dreams; visions even. Nom Anor is no different. It seems to me that his "dream" was so close to his own black heart, that he actually felt as if destiny itself had opened his eyes to his "future."

This hardly alludes to him being Force-sensitive. If anything, the vision only serves to reinforce Nom Anor's self-obsession. It may also serve to foretell us (the readers) about a scene in The Unifying Force. It most certainly does not try to make Nom Anor out to be a Force-user.

Zanus
17 October 2003, 12:31 AM
you'll have to excuse any grammer or spelling mistakes, its late as I post this

I have read and seen alot of stuff on people having 'visions' that embodied their greatest fears or desires coming true when they have held the thing in their minds like an obsession. Heck, I once thought I have visions of a war in the middle east (after Dester Storm). I was on a huge Modern Israeli War History kick at the time, I think it was just my imagination showing me what I had been reading about the last few months.

Nom Anor is so obsessed with his goals that it is causing his imagination to kick in. And you can't say he doesn't have an imagination, he was able to form the Peace Brigade and cause all manner of problems within the New Republic. You would have to be able to see the things in your head to pull that much off, IMO. The problem with SW is so many people are on the kick of the force, that they think that if one author makes a character have a vision or a meaningful dream, they are some how force sensitive, thus taking that character off in a totally different direction then how they where meant to be. Or their facking it, like that one race fixer that Lando found in the Jedi Academy trilogy.

Anyway, back on topic:

I regret to admit that I have not read past the the four most recent books made. I can't find a copy of Force Heretic 1 for some darnable reason, and I want to read them all in order. I say this so yall understand that my theories are based on what I have read so far and what I have read in this thread and other threads.

I really hope they don't bring Boba Fett back. After much time thinking about it, I would kinda like to see Lucas's original idea of Boba Fett dying in the sarlac be true. it fits for that family, if you think about it. Plus Boba was ruined after AotC for me.

Han's cousin has been very quiet lately. Anyone else think he managed to get Centerpoint back up and running, and may have learned how to aim it? There is the station and the unwitting ally right there :D

I am betting Shimra is exposed for not following the true will of the gods (as discussed on another thread), probably by Nom Anor or maybe even by Jacen/Tahiri if they get their hands on the right info. he will either make one last desperate effort to take everyone down with him, or will be struck down by a major character.

Nom Anor will probably survive, but he may willing or unwillingly help the Alliance by causing the shamed ones and workers to rise up against the priests, shapers and warriors. Of coarse, he would be causing other mischief in the process. Probably but heads with Jaina, as they are both aspects of Yun-Harla (I think that is the right goddess) in their own right.

I think we won't hear from the falannasi in UF. That whole idea seemed to be created just to give Luke something semi-meaningful and now completely pointless to do in the Black Fleet crisis. Pointless because we now pretty much know what happened to Luke's mom, and she wasn't a falannasi.

Where did that Super Star Destroyer in orbit over Calamari come from in DW? I thought the NR only had one of those, and that was only barely....

I don't see the Hutts or other crime lords making that much a difference in the war effort. The impression I got from early books was the Hutts couldn't stand up that well against the vong. Not to mention they do everything they can do to cut costs, so their equipment and soldiers are sub-par. I don't even think they have the means of producing war ships, they just kinda scrounge them up where they can. Yes, Lando is making war droids, and Karrde is helping, but they are hardly crime lords. They where already established as having their own well made supply and support centers durring the NR era, all more or less legal.

I had the idea a few days ago, but not the opportunity till now to mention it, but I remember thinking it would be interesting if a group of humans are forced out of the main SW galaxy for whatever reason to settle elsewhere. Tying in with that possible ending mentioned way earlier in this thread. That would be a great way of explaining the openning to the movies...

Nova Spice
17 October 2003, 09:14 PM
Han's cousin has been very quiet lately. Anyone else think he managed to get Centerpoint back up and running, and may have learned how to aim it? There is the station and the unwitting ally right there

Thrackan Sal-Solo is one of the main characters in Ylesia, which is the e-book that was introduced to coincide with Destiny's Way. In this e-book, Sal-Solo is duped into becoming the President of the Peace Brigade. When Kyp Durron and Traest Kre'fey lead the assault on Ylesia, Jaina Solo and Lowbacca manage to capture Thrackan. I imagine he's in prison. ;)

Solo666
19 October 2003, 10:13 AM
I really hope they don't bring Boba Fett back. After much time thinking about it, I would kinda like to see Lucas's original idea of Boba Fett dying in the sarlac be true.
Boba Fett's already back, or else someone (maybe Dengar) murdered him and took his helmet. Almost impossible, and unlikely. The only classic character thta's died is Chewie, and I doubt Fett will be dead with his face on the cover. Just get over it, advice I often argue against but always turns out right

Nova Spice
19 October 2003, 04:27 PM
The only classic character thta's died is Chewie, and I doubt Fett will be dead with his face on the cover. Just get over it, advice I often argue against but always turns out right

Well, unfortunately, you cannot use that argument as a case for saying someone is not going to die. Anakin Solo's face was on the cover of Star by Star. We all know what happened there. ;)

Kanner Ra'an
19 October 2003, 06:58 PM
I hope Fett does go out. I really wish he had died in the pitt of Sarlacc. One bit of bad luck that finally killed him would have been far better then what he's become; someone who keeps failing over and over every time whenever a Solo is involved. Killing him now would be merciful, even if it would create a bigger uproar then chewie and anakins death combined.

Darth Fierce
20 October 2003, 04:43 AM
You know, I just started thinking that we may see a parallel in the end of the NJO series and the end of the Thrawn trilogy if the following theory pans out.

Does anyone think it would be too weird if Onimi ends up killing Shimrra? Yeah, Onimi supposedly has a special place at the right hand of Shimrra, but I could see Onimi "pulling a Ruhk" of sorts in the end of The Unifying Force. Perhaps in the middle of a big fight between one of our heroes and Shimrra, an amphistaff seems to be swung out of nowhere to take Shimrra's head off. Then whichever hero has been fighting Shimrra sees Onimi holding the staff saying something like, "Our Dread Lord has lost his head. A new day dawns because he is dead."

Let me know what you think.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Rogue Janson
20 October 2003, 08:32 AM
The idea that Onimi will betray Shimmra is definitely a contender; the problem being we know so little about them both it's hard to tell really. On the other hand, I don't see Onimi killing Shimmra, Rukh style. Shimmra is physically fearsome in a way that Thrawn (who relied on his intellect) wasn't. So he'd take a lot more to kill, both in a practical and dramatic sense.

Darthspectre84
21 October 2003, 08:11 AM
Thats ture, Shimrra is said to be huge even by Vong standards. A giant. Not surprising for such a ruthless culture who pride on strength :) and still we dont know his capabilities should he be involved in combat.

Kanner Ra'an
21 October 2003, 11:43 AM
Im just going to ask this, and am expecting to get this idea shot down. Anyways, for a while i was really thinking that Omini is somehow controlling Shimraa or a "power behind the throne" type. I cant point out anything exactly, but it is the impression i got. Their would be no end to the iorny of it though, A shamed one controlling the Yuuzhan Vong.

Darth Fierce
21 October 2003, 01:28 PM
Heh...it would be almost as funny as Count Dooku's line of a Sith Lord being in control of the Old Republic.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Rogue Janson
22 October 2003, 07:07 AM
That idea's come up in the NR&NJO forum thread on the Final Prophecy, Kanner. See here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14095&perpage=15&pagenumber=3). As I said there, personally I don't see evidence that Onimi is controlling Shimmra, or even manipulating him in a significant way.

powalsh
22 October 2003, 07:16 AM
A couple thoughts:
The final showdown of the YV and the GA is most likely to take place with the help of Centerpoint and Zanoma Sekot. In the end I think Zanoma Sekot will help to defeat the YV but it will spare them and possibly offer sactuary when it is revealed that Zonamo Sekot is the thing that spawned the YV to begin with.
The Bothans in league with hard line Imps and souleles GA senators will attempt to use Alpha red in a secret attack, but the Jedi will step up at the last second and save the day. However many of the contributers to the project will escape or seek asylum in the bothan system.
Shimara will go all out and suprise the inhabitants of the galaxy with somehing supemly terrafying like mutated rancor war beasts, or the use of Dovin Basils to rip Mon cal apart. Remember that Mon cal experianced heavy geological damge from the Emperores World Devastators. In the end Shimara will die probably at the hands of a solo or a skywalker. Onimi will rise up to rule the shamed ones and Nom anor will be torn apart by his own followers.
The Chiss will arive to help save the day, but once they have enterd the galactic scene it will be di×××ult to control their expansion. They will most likely offer assistance to worlds close to the unknown regions and Imp space, in an attempt to expand their own empire.
I also forsee the death of a major character. Bad things come in three. If Chewy and Anakin are fair game then the final death must be equally pivotal. If I had to wager a guess, I would say Mara Jade. popularity wont keep you alive in this series, and it will provide some meaty issues for Ben in the future.

Solo666
22 October 2003, 12:58 PM
Nom Anor may convince Onimi to help kill Shimmra and then take over
or the other way around

Rogue Janson
22 October 2003, 03:57 PM
That seems like a pretty reasonable set of predictions powalsh, though I think the issue of centrepoint is closed. As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off concerning Shimmra and Onimi, because there are some major revelations to come about the pair of them (does anyone have the slightest idea what that bit at the end of Destiny's Way was about?).

Nova Spice
22 October 2003, 04:43 PM
As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off concerning Shimmra and Onimi, because there are some major revelations to come about the pair of them (does anyone have the slightest idea what that bit at the end of Destiny's Way was about?).

Okay. I just read, re-read, and re-read again, the last scene in Destiny's Way. And there's definitely something big we're not seeing.

The first paragraph is a memory that Shimrra is having; one of pain, horrendous pain. While it may be obvious that Shimrra remembers being shaped with biotech to "enhance" his physical stature as an offering to the "gods," I think there is a key sentence.

His body twitched to remembered pain. Images of needles and knifelike claws floated through his mind. He remembered the shriek of severed nerves, the grind of bone against bone, the way blood oozed slowly from a wound.
He shivered. Why had this happened? Why? He had never harmed anyone.
-pg. 446, Destiny's Way

Shimrra never harmed anyone......does anyone else find that very, very odd? The Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong, the Dread One, the being who has created this doctrine of genocide against the infidels, never hurt anyone before this painful experience?

This tells me one thing. Shimrra is not the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong. Someone else forced him to go through with this wicked invasion and endure tumultuous physical shaping. Someone else behind the scenes is pulling, or has pulled, Shimrra's strings.

The passage continues with Shimrra being able to detect his servants outside his Hall of Confluence. That basically proves he has the Force, or some form of sensitivity to it. Then there's this line from Onimi that causes more questions to arise. Particularly the comments thereafter.

"Fools," he said. "But what choice is there but to use them?"
Shimrra made no reply. His eyes were closed.
Onimi's voice was thoughtful. "We began this war, and now we must fight on and hope for the best." He gave a little shiver. "You've betrayed and used the gods-perhaps they now betray you in return."
Shimrra said nothing.
-pg. 448, Destiny's Way

The first line is Onimi's comment on the four caste leaders after they leave Shimrra's throne room. Now, Onimi asks a rhetorical question concerning their importance. Why does Shimrra not have a choice but to use them? What is Shimrra's goal? And an even bigger question, is if Shimrra's goal is really his goal? It seems that the Supreme Overlord has no choice but to rely on his servants. What agenda requires Shimrra to maintain his current ranks?

And of course, there is Onimi's quip about the war. The very fact that he says: "We began this," begs whether Onimi means the Yuuzhan Vong began the war, or Shimrra/Onimi began the war. And if Shimmra/Onimi started this conflict, then you have to mix in the fact that Onimi says Shimrra "betrayed and used the gods." Does this statement have anything to do with Shimrra's memories of pain?

I have to agree with Janson. What is going on here? I'm starting to think that there's someone else pulling Shimrra's strings....

Master Tryka
22 October 2003, 04:59 PM
all I can say Nova... wow. Well, wow, and where is my copy of Destiny's Way...

Between you and Kanner... you may be on to something.

Solo666
22 October 2003, 05:48 PM
Remember this is a Vong mentality. Harming someone may be considered differet. Maybe he was tortured in his childhood, or maybe he had- perhaps destroyed a planet of "infidels". To many Vong raisde under their propoganda, non-Vong deserve to die, so killing them would not be arming anyone.

Nova Spice
22 October 2003, 06:30 PM
Remember this is a Vong mentality. Harming someone may be considered differet.

When hasn't "harming someone" been "different" in Vong society? The very fact that before Shimrra went through his excrutiating experience, he had never harmed anyone, tells me something funny is going on.

Inflicting pain or harm is hardly against Yuuzhan Vong society. This very idea is almost too ludicrous to be considered in any further speculation. A simple reference in any of the eighteen novels shoots this idea down. ;)


Maybe he was tortured in his childhood, or maybe he had- perhaps destroyed a planet of "infidels".

If he was "tortured" in his childhood, two questions arise. Who tortured him? And Why? I don't think the passage cited has anything to do with Shimrra's "childhood." I think the context alludes to this being part of his "rise to power," but you never know, you might be correct.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say he destroyed a planet of infidels. Sernpidal, Ithor, Coruscant, Barab I, N'Zoth, Generis, Belderone, and New Plympto are all worlds destroyed by Shimrra.


To many Vong raisde under their propoganda, non-Vong deserve to die, so killing them would not be arming anyone.

Can you clarify this a bit? :?

Rogue Janson
23 October 2003, 03:58 AM
I think what Solo666 is trying to say is that the Yuuzhan Vong concept of "harm" may be different to ours. So, for example, Shimmra might not believe wiping out a planet of infidels is causing harm (it is for their own good, after all...). I don't really agree with this though, because it renders the passage basically meaningless if we're cut adrift from cultural and linguistic reference points.

Anyway, I think that's a pretty perceptive analysis of the passage, Nova. I missed some of those implications.


This tells me one thing. Shimrra is not the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong. Someone else forced him to go through with this wicked invasion and endure tumultuous physical shaping. Someone else behind the scenes is pulling, or has pulled, Shimrra's strings.
Maybe that's a slightly misleading way of saying things - Shimmra is the leader of the Yuuzhan Vong, but he probably did not choose the post or the goals.
I would say someone has pulled Shimmra's strings. If someone is still pulling his strings, it will either have to be someone entirely new, or Onimi. While I've said that I don't believe Onimi is doing this, I do think it's more likely than the former option, since to introduce such an important new character at this point would be ridiculous. (Incidentally, I think we can say for certain there is no other possible contender that we have encountered - it is clear none of the top ranking YV control Shimmra, for example.)


The first line is Onimi's comment on the four caste leaders after they leave Shimrra's throne room. Now, Onimi asks a rhetorical question concerning their importance. Why does Shimrra not have a choice but to use them? What is Shimrra's goal? And an even bigger question, is if Shimrra's goal is really his goal? It seems that the Supreme Overlord has no choice but to rely on his servants. What agenda requires Shimrra to maintain his current ranks?
Again here, I think this is either slightly misleading or misinterpreted. Shimmra does not have a choice but to use the caste leaders to accomplish his goal because to do otherwise would mean disrupting the entire YV social/hierarchic structure. So it's a practical matter really.

The two important questions are:
What is Shimmra's goal?
Why is this his goal?

The latter is the real killer, since we can deduce Shimmra's goal relates to his rise to Supreme Overlord, which we know almost nothing about. We suspect that this was manipulated by another, with Shimmra originally acting as an unwilling pawn.

Having said that, I don't believe Shimmra is still being manipulated in this way - I really don't see anything suggesting this. Instead, things have been set in motion and he is forced to go along. Shimmra acts autonomously, but his actions are dictated by the events of the past. What could make him stick to such a course when he clearly knows the risk is unclear. The most obvious is to maintain his position, but that doesn't really seem a strong enough motive, especially with the risks involved and the suggestion that he was unwilling to take the position in the first place.

On the subject of the Force; Shimmra has some form of the Force, that is for certain. He can sense Yuuzhan Vong, impress his will on them and also receive visions (a particularly important point). I would say he knows, though he may not at the start, what the Force is, that his powers come from the same root as the Jedi and Zonama Sekot. All that begs the question why do no other Yuuzhan Vong have these powers?
The obvious idea is that Shimmra was shaped that way, but I don't think this is correct. For a start, who knew and applied the shaping techniques to do this?

I have an idea about this. The Force is effectively a hereditary trait present from birth. We know one very interesting thing about Yuuzhan Vong births - that twins are incredibly rare. Moreover, every time a pair of twins have been born, one of them has gone on to do great things and to lead the Yuuzhan Vong. Does anyone think there may be a link here?

We also have some circumstantial evidence for this. The Jedi, as Anakin says, are concerned with balance. The Yuuzhan Vong have only one group concerned with balance - those who follow the Twin Gods. Not only are these the Gods of balance, but also of love and of opposites - such as light and dark. A bit circumstantial, yes, but is it coincidence?

Finally, if you'll let me go off on a tangent, what if Yuuzhan Vong twins represent opposites, hence the fact they inevitably conflict. Another idea - what if, in doctrine, they're meant to represent opposites but, in reality, they don't? So to get the desired outcome (ie. them fighting one another), one or both of the twins have to be manipulated.
Normally I'm extremely wary of wild speculation, but I'm quite pleased with that idea.

wolverine
23 October 2003, 11:08 AM
Whhoooo rogue. That brings up strange thoughts in my mind...

We know that shimmra came to power by 'defeating' the previous leader. What if they were twins? Shimmra being the 'bad one, who was destined to be a shammed one. Omni finds him in this state, uses what favors he has, and get's his friend to kill his brother and take over the vong. But before he can do this, he needs to look 'proper', hence the shaping. Omni as a shamed one himself (or is he), asks/demands of shimmra that he be alowed to act as this bumbling fool, so he has his own power of sorts...

Jeskan
23 October 2003, 01:52 PM
If the twin thing is right, I think Shimraa is the good one. Now I have an idea, what if Zonama Sekot will bring ultimate power to the evil twin? Shimraa is trying to protect everyone by stoping the evil twin. Shimraa might be controlled by the evil twin, but not completely. My money is on Quoreal being the evil twin, if the evil twin thing is right.

Solo666
23 October 2003, 04:19 PM
The Supreme Overlord is a caste, right? One family? So Quoreal would be his twin or his father. Or an uncle, which would be the only reason for the Quoreal cult that I could see.

Kanner Ra'an
23 October 2003, 04:23 PM
The Supreme Overlord is a caste, right? One family? So Quoreal would be his twin or his father. Or an uncle, which would be the only reason for the Quoreal cult that I could see.

Theirs no real evidence for or against that, however by the sound of the descriptions it sounds like Shimraa gained power in a coup rather then a duel or succession. Also since twins are supposedly very rare i dont think this is the case with Shimraa.

Nova Spice
23 October 2003, 07:41 PM
Theirs no real evidence for or against that, however by the sound of the descriptions it sounds like Shimraa gained power in a coup rather then a duel or succession. Also since twins are supposedly very rare i dont think this is the case with Shimraa.

This very well may be the sixty-four thousand dollaer question.

Did Shimrra gain power in a coup or in a duel? If Shimrra earned his rank through one on one combat, then Quoreal may very well have been (or still be) Shimrra's twin brother.

If this is the case, then its even more understandable why Shimrra wanted Jacen and Jaina captured alive.

With all this in mind, there is another pressing matter that has been irking me. Though I suspect I am not alone in this; particularly after The Final Prophecy hit shelves.

Why does Shimrra fear Zonama Sekot? Is the living planet the key to Shimrra's past? Is it the key to the Yuuzhan Vong's past?

Darth Fierce
23 October 2003, 08:17 PM
I believe Shimrra fears Zonama Sekot mainly because its mere existence threatens the Yuuzhan Vong people's psychological mentality. Shimrra and his bunch have been brought up to believe that they should embrace pain and destroy/conquer those who do not follow along with their train of thought. And yet here is Zonama Sekot, original homeworld of the Vong, which appears to truly be sorry for whatever suffering it might have caused in the past, and also appears satisfied to live in peaceful coexistence with the Ferroans as well as its new friends from the GFFA whose ideals differ greatly from the current Vong. Zonama Sekot is quite literally a slap to Shimrra's face which could topple him off his throne. Not to mention the fact that Zonama Sekot appears to have at least limited Force powers that it could bring to bear against those who would threaten it. The planet may very well be the foil of Shimrra, whom you and I, Nova Spice, have agreed has some connection to the Force (much like Luke was the foil of the Emperor).

Darth Fierce :vader:

Zanus
23 October 2003, 11:46 PM
The Force is effectively a hereditary trait present from birth

I feel it might be good to note that there are alot of instances of people being born force sensitive to blood lines that where not before. By my understanding, that is how the old jedi order got most of their new members, as they did not want the Jedi to have any family bonds. Just saying as it may be possible that, if Shimraa is force sensitive, it may not necessarily be from a prior blood line. Although I could see the possibility of it being bloodline because of Sekot.

Although I do have to say, I never really got the impression that Shimraa was force sensitive. Unless there is something in the new books (I have yet to read Remnant, it is next on my list), what I have read so far has been things that are not necessarily the force. I got the impression that it was because of his eye implants (I can't remember the name of them) that he was able to project his presence into someone elses mind. That could be a simple empathic link, along the same lines as how villips communicate with each other. Again, this is based off of books up to DW, and does not include anything noted since then, I apologize if I missed something.

I also could see the reason why Shimraa would fear Sekot would be because it would prove much of the Vong's beliefs to be completely, or nearly false. the Gods they have worshipped for so long may have simply been the leaders of the vongs leaving their true homeworld and setting off on there own somewhere, for whatever reason. Maybe shaping the race in such a way as to minizime the possibility of their home world or cousin races from their original home world trying to find them through the force.

BTW, does anyone else remember the mentions of ancient wars against races, or other vong, from their home galaxy that used technology, but the Vong that live now fought them because of varying beliefs? I am kinda curious if that has been explored any more and might have some significance on all this. Pure late night speculation that may mean nothing, but I haven't seem much more mention of this as of late and am kinda curious

wolverine
24 October 2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Darth Fierce
I believe Shimrra fears Zonama Sekot mainly because its mere existence threatens the Yuuzhan Vong people's psychological mentality. Shimrra and his bunch have been brought up to believe that they should embrace pain and destroy/conquer those who do not follow along with their train of thought. And yet here is Zonama Sekot, original homeworld of the Vong, which appears to truly be sorry for whatever suffering it might have caused in the past, and also appears satisfied to live in peaceful coexistence with the Ferroans as well as its new friends from the GFFA whose ideals differ greatly from the current Vong. Zonama Sekot is quite literally a slap to Shimrra's face which could topple him off his throne. Not to mention the fact that Zonama Sekot appears to have at least limited Force powers that it could bring to bear against those who would threaten it. The planet may very well be the foil of Shimrra, whom you and I, Nova Spice, have agreed has some connection to the Force (much like Luke was the foil of the Emperor).

Darth Fierce :vader:


He probabily also fears it, cause he knows Nonma is the perfet mesh of living and unliving. Technology and biotech. If it became common knowledge, the vong would be in uproar..

Rogue Janson
24 October 2003, 02:50 AM
I feel it might be good to note that there are alot of instances of people being born force sensitive to blood lines that where not before. By my understanding, that is how the old jedi order got most of their new members, as they did not want the Jedi to have any family bonds. Just saying as it may be possible that, if Shimraa is force sensitive, it may not necessarily be from a prior blood line. Although I could see the possibility of it being bloodline because of Sekot.
Ok, the emphasis came out wrong on that. The emphasis should have been not that Shimmra's forebears may have had the Force, but that any twin of his is likely to.


Although I do have to say, I never really got the impression that Shimraa was force sensitive. Unless there is something in the new books (I have yet to read Remnant, it is next on my list), what I have read so far has been things that are not necessarily the force. I got the impression that it was because of his eye implants (I can't remember the name of them) that he was able to project his presence into someone elses mind. That could be a simple empathic link, along the same lines as how villips communicate with each other. Again, this is based off of books up to DW, and does not include anything noted since then, I apologize if I missed something.
This is a bit of a hazy issue, because Yammosks and Dhuryams have a form of telepathy that affects both the Yuuzhan Vong and other species, and no-one seems particularly bothered by that - they accept it as some 'normal' form of tp. In the same way, the Yuuzhan Vong don't seem to see Shimmra's powers and go 'oh, well Yammosks can do it, it's probably just to do with his maa'it implants'. That's also why I emphasised his visions (though I suppose this isn't actually confirmed yet), since that is an ability no YV creature has.


originally posted by Nova Spice
Why does Shimrra fear Zonama Sekot? Is the living planet the key to Shimrra's past? Is it the key to the Yuuzhan Vong's past?

originally posted by Zanus
I also could see the reason why Shimraa would fear Sekot would be because it would prove much of the Vong's beliefs to be completely, or nearly false. the Gods they have worshipped for so long may have simply been the leaders of the vongs leaving their true homeworld and setting off on there own somewhere, for whatever reason.
The answer to Nova's second question is an unqualified yes.
I think that Zanus is probably correct with respect to the first question. It may be important to note that Zonama Sekot has an instinctive/emotional effect on Yuuzhan Vong - it does not simply present them with rational evidence, but affects them at a deeper (spiritual level). One thing I'm not sure about though is why Shimmra has such an overriding interest in maintaining the status quo and concealing the truth. (It's a threat to his position, of course, but he doesn't really seem to enjoy being Supreme Overlord.)


BTW, does anyone else remember the mentions of ancient wars against races, or other vong, from their home galaxy that used technology, but the Vong that live now fought them because of varying beliefs? I am kinda curious if that has been explored any more and might have some significance on all this.
Yes, we know the Yuuzhan Vong wiped out or enslaved (a la chazrach) the species of their own galaxy. The only particularly interesting piece of information I can think of about this is that, according to the NJOSB, their biotechnology all came from another race (which they then wiped out, naturally).

The idea that Quoreal is Shimmra's twin is a good one, but it does have a problem - twins are meant to rise to Supreme Overlord after defeating (and presumably killing) their sibling. It is possible that Quoreal defeated, but didn't kill Shimmra, allowing him to rebuild a power base, but the way the YV operate that seems unlikely, even if we allow for some fraternal compassion.
The fact that everyone knows Shimmra was a twin means there must be a story to describe how he defeated his brother (actually technically, it could have been a sister), even if it is not true. The fact we've not heard any mention of it is suspicious but could be simply an oversight.

The way Harrar talks about Shimmra's succession makes it sound like he gained power by political means, rather than a duel. I don't see much reason to keep a duel secret, since it is a straight test of strength, something the Yuuzhan Vong respect, unlike politics.

Solo666
25 October 2003, 12:45 PM
Also since twins are supposedly very rare i dont think this is the case with Shimraa.
interesting case. I remember in Traitor, they said Shimmra defeated his twin in a duel but this could have been propoganda. Or it could have had something to do w/ Quoreal or Onimi

Darth Fierce
28 October 2003, 02:02 PM
So the question of between Shimrra and Nom Anor which one would be most likely to meet his maker time and again before the end of the NJO series over in the The Final Prophecy forum. While I would rather see both of them knocked off at this point, my gut feeling is that if either of them gets killed off in The Unifying Force, it's going to be Shimrra. Just wondering what other people think, and does anyone think it would be out of line for both of them to be knocked off?

I know some of you still think Harrar's going to come back and take out Nom Anor in the final novel, but I still remain fairly certain that Harrar is no longer among the living. Still, I could be wrong, and as I've said before, it would serve Nom Anor right to meet his maker by the hands of someone he tried to kill.

Anyway, any feedback from this post would be appreciated.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
28 October 2003, 07:27 PM
Still, I could be wrong, and as I've said before, it would serve Nom Anor right to meet his maker by the hands of someone he tried to kill.

This train of thought is exactly the same as my own, Fierce. I think it'd be quite ironic for Nom to die at the hands of someone he thought he defeated.

And considering the wording of Harrar's "death scene" in The Final Prophecy, it might truly be a reasonable possibility. Only one week left before we find out. ;)

Darth Fierce
29 October 2003, 03:59 AM
It might be cool to see Nom meet his end by the hands of Harrar, but over on http://www.theforce.net, I remember someone writing up a possible death scene for Nom by the hands of Mara Jade Skywalker. If I remember right it goes a little like this: Nom and Mara meet up in the midst of a great battle. Nom sees that Mara is furious for all Nom's put our heroes through. He goads her on, trying to get her angry enough to attack him. Eventually, Mara tells Nom that she should kill him for all he's done. Nom says something along the lines of "that doesn't seem very Jedi-like." Then as Mara hesitates for a second, Nom tries to poison her again. But Mara sees that Nom's about to pull this trick again, ignites her lightsaber, cuts Nom in two and says, "I've never been a very good Jedi."

Darth Fierce :vader:

wolverine
29 October 2003, 10:23 AM
Actally, thinking about it, i feel Jaina will be the one to kack Nom. She is after the sword of the jedi...

Nova Spice
29 October 2003, 06:32 PM
If Nom Anor dies, it will be at the hands of one of three people:

-Mara Jade Skywalker
-Harrar
-Tahiri Veila

Personally, I hope that The Unifying Force spares either Shimrra or Nom Anor for another day. If Nom is to die, however, I feel that of the above, Mara or Harrar should have the honors of offing the bastard.

Mara has an emotional tie to Nom Anor since the outset of Vector Prime; he is, after all, the one who nearly killed her and her unborn child. And we all know that Mara Jade has a knack for vengeance. :)

Should Harrar be responsible for Nom's death, I think that this would be an acceptable ending to the executor's reign of chaos. Harrar proved in The Final Prophecy that he is a rational Vong and a potential ally of the Galactic Alliance. It would be fitting for one of Nom's own to destroy him.


Actally, thinking about it, i feel Jaina will be the one to kack Nom. She is after the sword of the jedi...

I don't know. Jaina has already had the pleasure of killing Tsavong Lah. I doubt they'll allow her to finish off two huge Vong villains in this series; though I could be wrong.

Solo666
30 October 2003, 01:18 PM
any Jedi that knowingly kills Nom will almost undoubtedly do so with anger, turning dark. Jacen could most likely do so calmly, and Harrar would not have to worry about turning to the dark so easily, being non-Force

Darth Fierce
30 October 2003, 01:40 PM
Yet if a Jedi is protecting him/herself from an attack by Nom Anor I would doubt that would warrant a fall to the Dark Side, by whomever it might be. In other words, if Nom tried to poison Mara again, and she killed him before he could do so, I don't think she'd necessarily fall to the Dark Side as a result of this. After all, we see Jedi killing Vong in the books all the time out of self-defense, and I doubt you would consider someone the likes of, say, Luke on the path of the Dark Side.

Let me know if anyone sees fault in this logic.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Jeskan
30 October 2003, 03:04 PM
I only see fualt in Solo's logic

Solo666
30 October 2003, 05:05 PM
If a Jedi kills Nom Anor, 10 to 1 odds that it will bea main character. Most of these would feel hi anger when confronting him, considering his past. They would probably strike him in anger, meaning to kill or maim. They would become dark. Jacen, though, could probably avoid this, as could Luke

Kanner Ra'an
30 October 2003, 05:36 PM
I see. I think its just one of those things, that while they could possibly happen, it probably wont. Jedi dont just do one thing then go Dark. It is a progressive thing. And anyways, theirs a differance between someone dying in a fight, which is ok, as opposed to just killing a helpless Nom. Last point, why would they do something like that so late in the series. Doesn't make much sense.

Treefrog
30 October 2003, 08:43 PM
Here's my .02:

I think that if Boba Fett is in TUF, he'll be leading a large force of clones from Kamino. It would definitely bring the character full circle.

As far as the death of Nom Anor, I think that the Shamed Ones will discover, en masse, of NA's deceipt; and kill him that way.

Shimra will die at the hands of Jacen Solo. Harrar will become the new Supreme Overlord.

Jaina and Jagged Fel will marry-thus cementing the bonds of alliance between the GA and the Chiss.

The Imperial Remnant will join with the GA permanently.



These are only a few thoughts....I haven't read The Final Prophecy yet.

powalsh
31 October 2003, 10:01 AM
Interesting thoughts. I agree that Jaina and Jags union could unite the chiss and the GA, however I believe that the Chiss question should take at least its own book. I dont want them summing up the chiss involvment in a paragraph or two. I also agree that the Remnant is going to join , but they will probably be more of a problem then the bothans ever were.

Darth Fierce
31 October 2003, 10:50 AM
A question...if the Imperial Remnant does officially join with the GFFA, do you think that any planets remaining with the Remnant will continue their virtually human-only policy? I ask this because at least Pellaeon has expressed a growing respect for some aliens, especially the Ryn, for the help they have provided in the war.

Let me know what you all think.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Rogue Janson
31 October 2003, 11:36 AM
Joining the Galactic Alliance would mean accepting some of their norms; I'm sure equal respect for all species would be one of these.
Of course attitudes will be harder to change - Pellaeon was never an alien hater (hard to be when you serve under Thrawn) - but the New Republic absorbed Imperial worlds in the past and overcame this sort of obstacle.

Darth Fierce
31 October 2003, 02:06 PM
True, Pellaeon did not hate Thrawn, but he often plotted that one day he would kill Rukh (if you remember from the Thrawn Trilogy). Actually, I feel Pellaeon's one of the few Imperials whose come far enough around to accept, and even respect, most alien cultures in comparison to his peers.

Darth Fierce :vader:

CaamasiJedi49
1 November 2003, 02:49 PM
I think a reason he is more respectful was because he grew up in teh Old Republic times, and thus was used to aliens around him that weren't slaves of some sort or another, but equals. And to point out about the Ruuk point, Pellaeon only wanted to kill Ruuk becuase he was always distrustful of him, just like Cabooth(excuse spelling). Having Ruuk always skulcking in the shadows, easily able to take you out at his own whim is not always something that makes you likeable. Its a little too bad Pellaeon didn't kill him sooner though, who knows what would have happened at teh Battle of Billbringi.

CaamasiJedi49:plokoon:

Solo666
3 November 2003, 12:08 PM
I know most of the moffs were willing 2 ally, but traditionally they've been supporters of Palpy's policies. There may be trouble with the Council if they joined the GFFA

Kanner Ra'an
3 November 2003, 12:28 PM
The Moffs are not in control. Its like the british queen to Canada. Technically she's the ruler of our nation, however she no longer has the power to do anything. The leader of the empire is the leader of the military. That Pellaeon. If the moffs start giving him trouble they would simply be removed.

Jeskan
3 November 2003, 02:02 PM
wow, tommorrow we will no longer speculate. I'm happy that its election day and i have no classes so I'm going to tbe at Barnes and Noble before the door opens.

Solo666
3 November 2003, 04:02 PM
Grand Admiral Pallaeon has mentioned before that the combined moffs have more power than him. If they mostly disagreed with him about any nonmilitary issue, he's overruled. Once he mentioned if he needed to, he would take the military and break away from the Empire to keep them alive. And they said they picked the Grand Admiral, too.

Zanus
3 November 2003, 05:05 PM
There is a difference between military power that Palleaon has, and political power that the moffs have. Durring a war, the military has ulitimate power, with the usual exceptions. Thus, Palleaon currently has more power then the moffs. Plus moffs, by their nature, never totally agree on anything and have to have someone make it clear to them what they are supposed to do, which is where Pelleaon comes in once more.

Rogue Janson
4 November 2003, 02:03 AM
True, but the Empire is an exceptionally militarised society; politics and military affairs cross over a great deal. The rule of the Empire is still guaranteed by force, rather than legitimacy, so without the support of the military, the moffs will be left with few resources - maybe the bureaucracy, civilian security forces (though they may side with the military), maybe some branches of intelligence (but probably not). I doubt the civilian population would give the moffs much support without the military - what is the Empire without its armed forces?
The military also has considerable economic power, controlling shipyards and the like - important corporations could well side with them as well, as long as they are run by pragmatists rather than moff's cronies and placemen (which a large number probably are).

Solo666
4 November 2003, 08:20 AM
the moffs should still have some kind of power- like Palpatine had his guards. If it comes to a fight, Pallaeon would suceed from the Empire- he said so himself. That proves he does not have that much control

Rogue Janson
4 November 2003, 08:38 AM
I'm not sure, I think Pellaeon might be underestimating his capacity. Another possibility suggests itself though - that if the Imperial Navy seceded, so would much of the Empire.
But it probably misses the point anyway - the threat of secession gives Pellaeon enough power to push the moffs around.

Darthspectre84
4 November 2003, 09:04 AM
Yeah cause think about the NR when the YV were invading and Borsk was not doing anything. So was it Wedge who said that they will take all NR military forces to the Unknown Regions if the Senate does not do anything.

Same scenario applies to Pelleaon, who needs who more. Does Pellaeon need the Moffs or do the Moffs need Pelleaon. If Pellaeon left the Moffs are defenceless. If the Moff left Pelleaon....well not sure what would happen then :P

Zanus
4 November 2003, 12:36 PM
So was it Wedge who said that they will take all NR military forces to the Unknown Regions if the Senate does not do anything

IIRC it was actually Admiral Kre'fey and colonel Darklighter that threatened this. And I am pretty sure it wasn't the entire military, just a good chunk of it that would be missed as it went to the unknown regions to set up their own empire. Wedge mearly turned a few senators demands into an opporunity after the fall of corouscant


the moffs should still have some kind of power- like Palpatine had his guards. If it comes to a fight, Pallaeon would suceed from the Empire- he said so himself. That proves he does not have that much control

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself in that same statement? 1. I think you are miss interpriting the fight in question. The fight against the vong is all important, everything else is secondary. His fight against the moffs is simple. Either they agree, or they are alone with nothing, as stated in the books The moffs can't afford to have personal gaurds outside the military, that would require mercs and those cost money that can't be justified for such a needless luxury.

2. the fact that the Grand Admiral can threaten to take the military away from the empire, and have the moffs know he is right, is a clear sign of just how powerful he truly is. He isn't afread of the Vong if he can fight them on his terms, and he definetly isn't afread of the moffs. A major portion of the officer core, and more then likely all of the enlisted love him because he doesn't treat them the same way the officers of the Empire under the Emperor treated them. He doesn't waste their lives or give needless orders. He takes the time to get to know his subordinates around him and watch their careers if they are noteworthy enough. Officers like that are rare, and when they can balance their friendship with their subordinates and still command properly, they are a an officer of the highest caliber that can lead their men into the depths of hell unflinchingly. No other officer or moff in the Empire is capable of earning such loyalty unless they came from the Grand Admirals command staff or if they respect him enough to try and copy what he has done with their own subordinates. The only people the moffs are likely to keep are officers that have gaind their station through poliitcal dealing and that are so blinded by petty ambition that they can't see the truth around them. The Grand Admiral would not miss those officers, the troops and equipment they take with them sure, but not the officers.

Solo666
9 November 2003, 06:46 PM
After the war, if it were anyone except the Empire, I would say the moffs have little need for Pallaeon. If he left, I think they could pull together enough of a military force to control thei area, but I think Pallaeon would respond to that. Being Imperial, I don'r think he's one to ignore such a challenge to his power.

Master Tryka
9 November 2003, 07:28 PM
Hmmm.. I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with that. I think the Moffs are more or less nothing without Pellaeon. He IS the military, and I think he is universally respected and if he would have pulled away, most if not all of the military, especially all of the higher ranking ones would go with him since they know he has the hearts of his men. I think that was portrayed during Leia's visit in his garden, where he more or less played it off that the Moff's were important in the government, but had little say in the military, and without the military's support, the imperial government crumbles.