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Krad-edis
25 May 2003, 05:14 AM
I have a few concerns about the authority of the Emperor's Hand Operatives, and they mainly concern Vader.

From what I understand about the Emperor's Hand operatives is that they report directly to him (Palpie) and no one else. They have security clearances that allow them access to many things that a lot of the Empire's top officials could only wonder about (top brass, and Moffs). I was wondering if this sort of authority that the Emperor's Hand have and execute would even supercede Vader's authority. I can't imagine Vader taking it very well if someone told him no, or to mind his own business, or even worse, something like "Go piss up a rope Vader. I am in charge here."

Would Vader have the same clearances? Are Vader and the Emperor's Hand operatives on the same level when it comes to carrying out the will of the Emperor? I find it very hard to believe (after seeing how Vader treated insolent officers or officers who failed him) that he wouldn't kill anyone who crossed him, but are the Hand special in that he is forbidden to choke them out even if they tell him where to go? Is it possible that he has knowledge of all of the Emperor's Hands and knows not to clash with them?

Any ideas?

Jim Williams
25 May 2003, 06:17 AM
I would say Vader has earned his own Authority SQ from a roleplaying standpoint, but there is no "Darth Vader" Prestige Class to reflect this.

As for choking people out---Vader could have likely killed any Hand that crossed him, but they wouldn't have gone down easily. On the flip side, the Hand would know Vader was pretty much unstoppable.

I would read Shadows of the Empire for more background on the intricacies of operating in the Emperor's Court.

Vanger Chevane
25 May 2003, 06:26 AM
The Hands are probably right below Vader in the Imperial Hierarchy, but Vader killing one off without an incredibly good alibi would probably earn him an experience with Force Lighting at Palapatine's hands.

Lord Kjeran
25 May 2003, 10:35 AM
...that Vader is also a Hand, but not in the true Hand sense. Vader is the visible mailed fist of the Emperor who crushes resistance to the New Order openly and w/o qualms.

The Hands are the hidden Hand of the Emperor, the hand within the silken glove that is never seen. Thje Grand Admirals obviously knew about them and probably Tarkin as well. Did Vader even know of their existance? And remember this....Mara thought she was the only one...

Tony

Jedi_Staailis
25 May 2003, 11:39 AM
Remember that, in addition to everything else, Vader was quite independent. Sure, he was subordinate to the Emperor, but the movies show him doing a lot of his own thinking, and he doesn't hesistate to throw his Force detection around (like on the Death Star). I find it hard to believe that Vader wouldn't know about the Hands.

As for authority, I would have to think that Vader would be higher in the Imperial hirearchy than the Hands. I see the Hands as having situational authority. Whenever the Emperor gives them a task, they can subordinate the commands of Imperial officers and Moffs to accomplish that. Otherwise, they would fall below high level Imperials. Vader's authority, except when placed against the Emperor's, is never questioned.

Theoretically, a Hand could be given orders to not reveal something to Vader, and Vader would probably respect the Emperor's orders. On the other hand (no pun intended), if Vader were to suspect that a Hand was acting on his or her own initiative in deciding to hide information from him, you'd have a dead Emperor's Hand. Sure, the Hand would put up a fight, as Jim Williams said, but Vader destroyed the Jedi. A single Emperor's Hand wouldn't be much of a challenge.

ElfWord
27 May 2003, 01:33 PM
Vader I would say has higher authority. I don't think he would hesitate to kill a Hand that got in his way, and I don't think it would be that much of a challenge for him either. If anything, he'd probably enjoy the exercise. The Hands has a great deal of autonomy and authority, and it was clear that at times Palpy used them to do things he didn't want Vader knowing about (why else would he teach Mara Jade a way to foil Vader's telepathy?), but if it came down to it then the Hand would be more expendable.

Nova Spice
27 May 2003, 01:47 PM
I'd just thought I'd add this philosophy or idea; it seems to make the discernment between Vader and the Hands clearer.

"Vader was the Emperor's enforcer by day; the Hands were the Emperor's enforcers by night."

And whenever "dawn" or "dusk" would occur and the two would be blended, the Emperor made sure each was capable of separating his objective from the other.

It may sound strange, but it rings clear to me!

Sherman Shipyards
27 May 2003, 10:41 PM
the one thing that must be remembered is that Vader is a Sith Lord.. We have learned from Yoda that their can olny be two at any one time. In this case Darth Vader and Darth Sidious (Palpatine). Other are just tools to be used. (think about where Massiri are in ANH.)

Additional eveadence of rank can be found in the Thrawn trilogy. In it Thrawn tells Mara that she was just a glorified messenger.

Iin summary, Palpatine and vader are the big fish and the hands are glorified henchmen, to be abused as often as needed or as enjoyed

Krad-edis
28 May 2003, 03:36 AM
Well, everyone has put this matter into very godd perspective. There was little doubt about whether Vader could exact his authority (either way, a lightsaber or a glance, the Hands would only have a few seconds to live). I just now have a better understanding that Vader probably would have been punished based on the Emperor's mood for dispatching with one of his hand picked assassins without permission. Force Lightning, or "you dumbass!", or nothing at all.

One thing that everyone seems to agree on is that Vader is number 2. Good enough for me, and thanks again all for putting things into perspective.

joebi_wan_kenobi
29 May 2003, 07:38 PM
i believe the way i uderstood it, and how it was always talked about in the novels, that the Hands "didn't even exist." There were no formal records of them, no one except of the super top brass even knew they existed. Each hand thought that they were the only one that existed, and that they were unique in their relationship to the Emperor. Kind of like a James Bond type superspy/saboteur.

Their relationship to Vader--- personally, i don't think that even Vader knew they existed. It's kind of like how Lord Kjeran said it, Vader was the Armored Fist of the Emperor. Subtlety was not Vader's way at all, and sometimes Palpatine needed that, so he created the Hands. BUT--- Vader, being the second top dog under the Emperor, would view that as competition for the Emperor's favor, and he wouldn't take kindly to that (we all know how it went down with Xizor....). Especially seeing as how this new person was Force Sensitive. So, Palpy probably told them to steer clear of Vader, and not even let him know they exist. Everyone thought Mara Jade was Palpatine's concubine, for pete's sake! :D

Their clearances? Probably just like Vader's. They probably had access cards and codes memorized that only the Emperor and his top operatives (Vader included) all had equal access to. Yes, i'd say that they had access to everything that Vader did, if not more so. Remember, they "don't exist." They just probably stayed the hell out of vader's way.

that's my two cents, anyhow...:D

Sherman Shipyards
29 May 2003, 08:30 PM
Vader knew about the hand and had given the Emperor at least one. For more details, try to track down Gamer #5

starkiller210
30 May 2003, 06:32 AM
Form what I understand the Hands can go anywhere, anytime, and do anything whith out being confronted by imperials + they have acess to the force

Lord Kjeran
31 May 2003, 04:03 PM
Chello!

How true. I also seem to remember a line somewhere in the Thrawn trilogy about all the backdoors that Mara used were there as Palpy's insurance against his top brass trying to stage a coup. They are Watchdogs.

Also, the Hands are like Imperial troubleshooters used to do jobs that direct force and armed conflict cannot solve, as has been pointed out. Imagine a Hand infiltrating a rebel cell. Hmm.... (starts scribbling notes)

Tony

ElfWord
31 May 2003, 04:44 PM
Vader did know about the hands actually. As for clearances, I don't know of an Imperial officer who would question Vader's authority or clearance. The Hands were the ones who memorized all the access codes for everything from secret shelters/supplies to back-door access to Imperial mainframes.

Darth Fury
31 May 2003, 05:19 PM
At the begining of ANH I would say the heirarchy of the empire went like this. Palpatine, Tarkin, Vader, the rest of the Moffs, the Grand Admirals, then the Emperors Hands. The Hands may have been detailed to sanction a Moff or a Grand Admiral from time to time, but until the Emperor gave the word they kept their hands off of them. They may have worked outside the 'system' but they were still a part of it.

P.S. Obviously after Tarkin died on the 1st :ds1: Vader steps into the number 2 spot in the chain of command.:D ;)

MassassiC
1 June 2003, 04:14 AM
I've just read a story in the Star Wars Tales graphic novel where Mara Jade has reported to the Emperor that she has found a Jedi in hiding (some flora-expert) and she wants to be the one to go and kill her. Vader insists that he must go, and they both argue in front of the Emperor briefly before he silences them and instructs Vader to go, much to the obvious annoyance of Mara.
With this in mind, I think I would have to agree with Nova Spice that they are essentially equal but seperate.

Corwin
10 June 2003, 04:50 PM
While itís already been mentioned, Iíve always reconciled any potential conflict between Vader and the Hands this way: the Hands are servants of the Emperor, Vader is a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Also, the hands were entirely dependent on the Empire. If any of you read the Mara Jade comic (written by Zhan) youíll recall that Mara had no real authority and no one but Vader and the Emperor new of her existence. He accesse to Empier resources was completely dependent on access codes granted her by the Emperor.

When he died the codes stopped working, and Mara found her self at the mercy of Imperial Intelligence, whoís director could not believe some one like Mara had exsisted with out her knowing.

Krad-edis
10 June 2003, 05:35 PM
The reasons why these questions came up were a result of two reasons. First, Tarkin onboard the Death Star gave Vader an order. He did not want Vader to kill the insolent general (I don't remember the guy's name), and he told him to release him. It was a command. It was not "Oh please Sith Lord, don't kill him, I beg you not to do so." It was "This is my space station, and I decide who lives or dies." Tarkin was in charge. Vader, the Empire's second, was under orders of a favored member of the Emperor's circle. Tarkin wasn't even a Hand. Sure, the Dark Lord of the Sith could have smeared everyone in the room, but he was under the orders of Tarkin because that is the way Palpie wants it.

Second, with the Resource Access and Authority class features that the Hands possess, they do have recources and clearances that only the Emperor grants them. Much like Tarkin, they have the means necessary to get their assignments done if the Emperor wishes it. They operate with authority on a case by case basis with the Emperor as the determiner of what, when, how, where, and why.......much like Vader seems to. Someone said earlier that Vader was a Hand, and I think that is close to the mark.

I think the Dark Lord of the Sith is a good point, but we have seen from Episode IV that Palpie can decide who is important, and give them equal or more authority to Vader in certain scenarios. The hand picked troubleshooters of the Emperor are prime candidates for this authority.

sjard
10 June 2003, 08:50 PM
I'd have to argue that had Vader really wanted the aforementioned general dead, he would have been dead reguardless of who was giving orders. thus i'd say that using this as proof that Tarkin was a step up from Vader is inconclusive as Vader wasn't intending to kill the guy this time, but rather to make an impression (no pun intended) and drive home his point.

also, i'm of the opinion that the Hands were, asside from personal highly skilled gophers, a potential pool of replacements if the Emperors current apprentice (Vader) were to somehow be eliminated. he's had at least 3 so far in the movies. presumably he's had a couple more over time.

sjard

Krad-edis
11 June 2003, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by sjard
I'd have to argue that had Vader really wanted the aforementioned general dead, he would have been dead reguardless of who was giving orders. thus i'd say that using this as proof that Tarkin was a step up from Vader is inconclusive as Vader wasn't intending to kill the guy this time, but rather to make an impression (no pun intended) and drive home his point.

Well, at the same time, it is interesting to see Vader standing by idly while Tarkin is calling all of the shots. Leia seemed to think that Vader was on his leesh. It seemed to me that Vader was on advisory status only, and Tarkin, if he wanted to, could have told Vader to get off his station if he felt like it. Sure Vader could have killed him, but I think the Emperor would have been pissed. I think it is also inconclusive to say that Vader was not going to kill the guy. The only thing we really have to go on is Tarkin telling him to knock it off with the horseplay and argueing. I think it is pretty fair to say that if you are choking someone, you have the plan to kill them. Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa will back me up on that one :)

Darthspectre84
11 June 2003, 04:00 AM
Ok now i want to say something :) Vader knew of the Hands...and i think it is an interesting development you said about the Tarkin factor. But you must remember that at the time of Episode IV the Senate was still there. The last part of the Old Republic...and i dont think Palpatine would want to get intoa situation where the Senate could do something so he put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star. Cause he was a military officer. I dont think the senate would tolerate Vader calling the shots.. And i know what someof you might say that the Senate had no power...but it did in the end. It was the last thing holding Palpatine back from a true Empire. So they had in a small sense some pwoer...at least enough to cause trouble for the Emperor.

Alsoi think he wanted Tarkin in as a scapegoat, if necessary. So Tarkin only had power cause of the situation....if the situation was not there then vader would have killed him. Or perhaps (which i doubt) Palpatine trusted Tarkin.

And no way a hand could beat Vader, a hand is an extention of the Emperor who uses telepathy to talk to the Emperor to recieve instructions and some minor force powers. As Vader put it, "Neither light nor dark". And the Hands power came from none other then Palpatine himself. While Vader could use his powers without restriction. I have seen Vader take on Jedi, Moffs, Admirals and even members of the Imperial Guard and most of them he fought without a sweat.

The Hands were dependant on palpatine, as you see with Mara when the Emperor died. She was a fugitive cause Isard was after her cause she did not know what Mara was exactly.

oh and one question: how many hands were there?

Krad-edis
11 June 2003, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84
oh and one question: how many hands were there?

Fifty-four......just kidding......I don't know. :D The only two people that would be able to answer that as far as I know would be Palpatine or George Lucas. Interesting points about the Senate, scapegoating and trust.

I don't want anyone to mistake what I am talking about here as far as ordinary chain of command. It is well known that Vader is the number 2 guy, however, for certain events, assignments, or locations, there are billets set up where Palpatine has given a person secondary authority. I don't think that Vader would be called to lead Thrawn's fleet for the Emperor, nor do I think that Vader would be called to command the Death Star. There are others who can probably do a much better job at these tasks, and I would have to say that Palpatine would give them, while they are in their sanctuary (command of a special fleet, or command of his super battle station, or on some super sensitive assignment), that they would have that secondary authority just like Vader. It is not a permanent status like Vader status by any means. These highly skilled gophers, as sjard put it (I agree) are called into Palpatine's inner circle for a mission and once they are done, they are removed until needed further. I would have to say that while they are in the circle, the same circle that Vader is permanently in, they are untouchable by Vader unless the Emperor deems them treasonous.

Darthspectre84
11 June 2003, 07:21 AM
54 are alot of hands :) a number of that i do agree with....the thing is the Hands were nothing more then spies and assassins. Beyond that they had little capacity for anything. And as it has already been said that vader is not the subtle type, he takes action, does not wait.

And even though vader was number 2; he cant fulfill all aspects that are needed in a mission. And Krad-edis, lets say if you were Vader and i was Palpatine (naturally :D ;) ) then i cant expect you fufil the the capacity of an Admiral cause you dont have the training and all. Cause in combat Vader was almost unbeatable (even Boba Fett cant beat him, and i red that Graphic novel). But he rules by fear; while Thrawn ruled by trust and abilities. Which one is more stable(?)

wolverine
11 June 2003, 08:36 AM
I think after reading several of the books, i have narrowed it to 5.

Think. Place your hand out in front of you. How many 'tendrils off' of it are there. 4 fingers and 1 thumb. 5 total


So we have
hand 1 - assassin - Mara Jade
Hand 2 - concubine - Roganda Imarsen
hand 3 - protectorate of justice - Hetherir
hand 4 - messenger - ?? (brakiss)
hand 5 - ??? - ???

Just my input.


As for vader and the hands, i would actually put them on the same level for authority, though if push came to shove, Vader has them edged out.

Krad-edis
11 June 2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by wolverine
As for vader and the hands, i would actually put them on the same level for authority, though if push came to shove, Vader has them edged out.

I thought I made it pretty clear before that the 54 was a joke, anyhow, what wolverine is says above pretty much somes it up. The only thing that I am calling for people to realize is that there are billets, and the chain of command changes based on Palpatine command and missions. If he orders an admiral, a Hand, a governor, or anyone to do something, Vader better not get in the way. The power granted by the Emperor to his little helpers can send Vader away, they had just better pray that Vader cools off before their assignment is over.

Nova Spice
11 June 2003, 03:57 PM
I think after reading several of the books, i have narrowed it to 5.

There's more than that wolverine. Star Wars Gamer had an article on the Emperor's Hands and there were several.

-Mara Jade
-Roganda Ismaren
-Maarek Steele
-Arden Lyn
-Lumiya
-Blackhole
-Sarcev Quest
-Jeng Droga

That's eight right there, add Vess Kogo from the Rebellion Era Sourcebook and Lord Hethrir from The Crystal Star and you have ten known hands. ;)

Jedi_Shadow
11 June 2003, 04:14 PM
OOO!! Which issue of Gamer is that?

Nova Spice
11 June 2003, 04:29 PM
It's Star Wars Gamer #5, the Dark Side issue. The article is good and the adventure hooks and stats are very handy for having a main villain at your disposal. Check it out. ;)

wolverine
11 June 2003, 10:01 PM
That makes sense. I was going off the phrase of Emperor's Hand (singular). That would be 5 facetts. If they are his hands (plural) that would bring it to 10.....

Darthspectre84
12 June 2003, 03:06 AM
What happened to all of them?
Mara is married to the enemy :rolleyes:
Roganada is dust
Dont know Steele?
Dont know Lyn?
Lumiya vanished
Blackhole is dead and some of the troops were gone to Carnor Jax
Dont know a quest?
And dont know a Droga :P

Nova Spice
12 June 2003, 07:54 AM
What happened to all of them?

-Mara Jade married Luke or the enemy as you say. :D
-Roganda Ismaren was killed shortly before Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand by Lord Nyax.
-Maarek Steele is still serving the Imperial Remnant more than likely. He was the main character in the TIE Fighter computer game.
-Arden Lyn is missing in action; she's the Teras Kasi master.
-Lumiya is also missing in action.
-Blackhole, as you say, is quite dead and was the first hand to die off.
-Sarcev Quest was killed by the Imperial Ruling Council on Nar Shaddaa.
-Jeng Droga went certifiably insane after Palpatine's death and became a hermit on the world of Kaal, awaiting his master's return from the dead.

Darthspectre84
12 June 2003, 09:06 AM
So four of the hands are alive....and three of them are mentally fit :D

Vanger Chevane
14 June 2003, 08:50 AM
2 are known to live, Mara Jade & Jeng Droga, only one of them is sane.

3 are confirmed to be dead, Ismaren, Quest, & Blackhole.

Which leaves the remaining 3 of the known 8, Steele, Lyn, & Lumiya, as total unknowns. They may or may <b>not</b> be alive, sane, and/or still serving the Empire. Not enough information is available to make a valid claim about their post-Endor fate.

I have no idea about Vess Kogo, don't own the sourcebook, but IIRC Hethrir died after kidnapping the Solo children.


Sanity of any remaining Hand must be qustioned, as Mara Jade wasn't exactly mentally stable until she killed the cloned Luuke, who was warped by Joruus C'Baoth at the end of the Thrawn Trilogy.

Darthspectre84
14 June 2003, 09:32 AM
Interesting point....so you think that all the other Hands have gone mad? I am not sure about Lumiya...wasnt it Vader who taught her everything? so does that technically make her a Hand?

Vanger Chevane
15 June 2003, 05:47 AM
Vader taught Lumiya, technically she'd be Vader's Hand, I honestly have no clue about this.

It could be that Palpatine was too busy to train her as his Hand himself, and may also have been a test of Vader's loyalty & ability to train new Sithlings.


Had Vader turned over Lumiya to Palpatine as anything less than absolutely loyal and fully competent in her abilities with the Force and as Palpatine's hand, Vader would pay for that somehow.

Darthspectre84
15 June 2003, 07:08 AM
Same would be so then with Lord Hethrir....cause he was trained by Vader.

Ardent
15 June 2003, 09:41 PM
There were a lot of Imperial Force-users. Prophets of the Dark Side, the Emperor's Hands, Vader's Dark Side Adepts, the Emperor's Dark Side Adepts....

Imperial Force-Use is so open-ended in terms of scope and variety it's a little boggling. Hard to believe any Force-sensitive child slipped through THEIR net, frankly.

Krad-edis
16 June 2003, 07:12 AM
I think it is really easy to believe, especially if they are anywhere from 5 to ten years older than Luke. This would make them right around five to ten years old at the end of the Clone Wars. The older Jedi would know better than to follow or trust the New Order after seeing everything unfold before them, but the young ones, or those who are just being discovered would not. These young people would not have to run if they fell prey to Imperial Propoganda and then became brainwashed by the masterminds of the New Order. Not that there would be anything like an Order of these henchmen to use, but definitely a few hundred relatively untrained Force Users as operatives. It would make sense that the Inquistors, Hands, and Vader would most definitely consider trying to turn someone instead of kill them outright if there was a possibility of doing so, after all, a level 3 Dark Side Marauder, or Dark Side Devotee does make a good little gopher who could not dream of challenging their skills. It does seem like there are a lot of them, but I think that it would make sense that if there would be many, most of them would be working for the side who has control (Rebellion Era for sure). Something like "It is better to be at the devil's side instead of in his path.", although you have to wonder if Mara Jade knew that Palpatine was evil at all.

Darth Fury
16 June 2003, 06:00 PM
Don't forget gentlemen that all of the royal guard and imperial soveriegn protectors were force-sensitive also.

Ardent
16 June 2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Darth Fury
Don't forget gentlemen that all of the royal guard and imperial soveriegn protectors were force-sensitive also.

A mistruth. A few of them were (Carnor Jax, for instance) but not all of them (Kir Kanos, for instance).

They're not really an established Imperial Force-User group, so to speak. The ISPs that were Force-sensitive often had horribly rudimentary training...lesser than what a self-trained mystic might uncover, really.

Darth Fury
16 June 2003, 07:03 PM
According to pages 98 and 99 of the Dark Side Sourcebook (it does say that not all of the guard were Force-sensitive, BUT there is no mention of wither or not the same is true for the soveirgn protectors nor does it say that only a few of either group were Force-sensitive...) it lists the basic skills of 'the guard' and 'the protectors' as being Force-sensitive with a rather reasonable level of training in several Force skills (IMO the soveriegn protectors are really more powerful in the force ,light/dark not withstanding, than the guard or even Mara Jade for that matter). Also according to the write ups the guard and the soveriegn protectors answer onlt to the Emperor and Vader.
And on a side note, IMO,regardless of wither or not they are a Force-User 'class' or not, taking on a royal guard or a soveriegn protector in melee combat would be a extremely difficult fight for any hand, Mara Jade included and if therer was more than one which there always were pretty much theywould have an incrediblely thin to none chance at victory. If you don't believe me comparte the stats for yourselves Mara's stats are on page 100 of the same book.

Ardent
16 June 2003, 08:33 PM
A Hand wouldn't fight a Royal Guard hand-to-hand. Well, not Mara Jade anyway. Chances are the Royal Guard would wake up with a knife in his back and never be the wiser.

Royal Guards aren't normally Force-sensitive. Go ahead and read Crimson Empire. Only a rare few were...which stands to reason considering the ratio of FUs to normals in the galaxy. What Royal Guards were were exceptionally fit, capable, mentally hardened veteran soldiers with undying loyalty to their Emperor. Kir Kanos continues to fight in the name of the Emperor even after the Empire is dead and gone. That's dedication.

Dedication the Emperor could not and probably would not expect from Force-Sensitives. Carnor Jax betrayed him at the first opportunity, for instance, and tried to make himself the new Emperor. Force-users, especially Dark Siders, aren't easily held down or bound within the ranks of a military hierarchy. Not in the traditional sense like the Royal Guards, anyway.

There's plenty of source material out there and "unsaid truths" are hardly where I'd start building my theories. Mine come from things like The Rules of Engagement, the Imperial Sourcebook and the Crimson Empire comics. All of which are also considered 'canon' material.

Darth Fury
16 June 2003, 08:42 PM
Actually I would consider them EU, not Canon, and how much more official do you need that was all nearly straight from the DSSB!!!!???!!!

Darth Fury
16 June 2003, 08:47 PM
By the By friend, The wise man can hear the truth from what goes unsaid.

wolverine
17 June 2003, 03:12 AM
Lucas' mouth.

But seriously, no one book overrides another, expecially since they are different systems (dssb is d20 while ROE is D6).

Ardent
17 June 2003, 08:52 AM
What you consider EU is your own business. My point was my sources were just as much canon material sources and they actually say otherwise. There isn't room left for 'unsaid truths' when the written diction specifies otherwise.

The saying, by the way, is "The wise man knows when to listen and when to speak. When he speaks, you are best advised to listen." But enough proverbs. ;)

Darth Fury
17 June 2003, 07:52 PM
There are several sayings out there Ardent my boy and both of those are among them. but we seem to be comparing apples and oranges or d6 and d20 so you believe what you read in your sourcebooks and I will go about finding 'unsaid truths' and basing theories on them.
p.s. and as soon as I hear something that sounds like wisdom I'll be sure to listen or ask that it get repeated.

Dea-Ev Dacal
24 June 2003, 01:54 PM
So exactly what was Blackhole. I have the Gamer#5, but it's not a heck of a lot of information. Was he just a shriveled old man being kept alive through extreme medical revival treatments, or something more. How force-sensitive was he, and why did he have his own Star Destroyer, as opposed to the other hands. He seemed to operate a lot more independantely than the other hands, Is this true?.

Was he featured in a book, or in a comic? He seems to be the most mysterious of all the Emperors Hands, but the most independent. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
E.D.

Ardent
24 June 2003, 05:08 PM
Blackhole was supposedly responsible for the Prophets of the Dark Side, and he was more an Inquisitor than a Hand, which is why a Star Destroyer was at his disposal.

Darthspectre84
25 June 2003, 02:34 AM
Well according to what i found Blackhole was a shrivelled old man who used holographic tech to make him appear younger...and when he would appear he was made up of blackness and stars inside. Also i think he was at the Fall of the Old Republic where Palpatine recruited him. But it does not really mention if he is a hand.

Rogue Janson
25 June 2003, 11:02 AM
Only source I've seen for Blackhole is the Rebellion era SB.

Ardent
25 June 2003, 04:26 PM
I think he was mentioned in Dark Empire. Can't remember. Anyone check the UOSWE?