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starkiller210
31 May 2003, 02:05 PM
Is it just me or does it seem like the New republic is starting to have the some problems the old republic did. Please vote and post your comments:atat: :btldroid: :bith:

ElfWord
31 May 2003, 04:50 PM
To my mind, this doesn't even need any sort of discussion. The books make it overwhelmingly obvious that the government (Borsk Fey'la specifically) held back the military from doing anything so he could gain power and political influence. This is only partially related to the problems of the Old Republic. The Old Republic's problems were not only corruption, but an overwhelming clog of beauracracy. The New Republic may have problems of corruption, but things like Alpha Blue, the Security Council, and pro-active private organizations help keep things moving.

Kanner Ra'an
1 June 2003, 05:25 AM
Elfword is correct. The NR military had the men, munitions, and ships to defeat the Vong but buracratic b******* bascally got them where they are now. Our democracies are slow as it is, but try dealing with millions of senators, all of whom can pull something that clogs up the works.

Nova Spice
1 June 2003, 09:45 AM
Elfword is correct. The NR military had the men, munitions, and ships to defeat the Vong but buracratic b******* bascally got them where they are now. Our democracies are slow as it is, but try dealing with millions of senators, all of whom can pull something that clogs up the works.

I partially disagree with this statement. Though Fey'lya held the military back from going all out against the Vong (in a vain effort to gain more pull from the more influential worlds, such as Kuat, Commenor, Corellia, Anaxes, etc.), I feel it was a blessing in disguise.

Had the New Republic gone at the Vong with everything they had early into the invasion, they would have found themselves overwhelmed by a strange technology, and blown to bits. The New Republic has benefitted in one specific way from the retreat of the fleets into the Core; it bought them time to learn how Vong biotechnology worked.

The NR did not have the manpower to take down the Vong at the beginning of the invasion. It wasn't until after Ithor that the shipyards even started churning out new warships. Had the government told Supreme Commander Sovv to go all-out after Sernpidal; we wouldn't be reading the Force Heretic Trilogy, because everyone would be dead. ;)

starkiller210
1 June 2003, 02:23 PM
I'd say it was acually both of the yeses because, in the begining if I remember correctly the New republic didn't even believe that there was the Yhuzhan Vong so they only set out little search parties to find out if the rumors were true. (yes, they didn't take the initiative) and once they did confirm the rumors the government held them back (yes, but the ..............) I also have to say that what Nova Spice said is true, if they did go all out they'd of lost and and would have nothing left to defend the core worlds with.

Kanner Ra'an
1 June 2003, 04:18 PM
Had the New Republic gone at the Vong with everything they had early into the invasion, they would have found themselves overwhelmed by a strange technology, and blown to bits. The New Republic has benefitted in one specific way from the retreat of the fleets into the Core; it bought them time to learn how Vong biotechnology worked.

The NR did not have the manpower to take down the Vong at the beginning of the invasion. It wasn't until after Ithor that the shipyards even started churning out new warships. Had the government told Supreme Commander Sovv to go all-out after Sernpidal; we wouldn't be reading the Force Heretic Trilogy, because everyone would be dead.

I disagree with you Nova Spice, which is normally suicide when it come to the NJO, but i still do. If the senate had moved everything they had at the start of the war the sheer number of vessals would have been the Vongs undoing. Plus the Vong would not have experiance fighting New Republic troops either. Intellegance is one thing, but you really cant fight an enemy if you havn't faced them in combat before. Since the Republic took so long the Vong had tons of oppertunities to gain real experiance while beating up everyone in the outer rim. This gave them a distinct advantage. Even if the republic had lost, it would have cost the Yuuzhan vong thousands of vessals. Since so much of their fleet would have been gone it would have been next to immpossible to build up a power base. The new republic however could have more ships quicker. This would have been their undoing. However it is kinda a moot point, isn't it.

Cakhmaim
1 June 2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice


I partially disagree with this statement. Though Fey'lya held the military back from going all out against the Vong (in a vain effort to gain more pull from the more influential worlds, such as Kuat, Commenor, Corellia, Anaxes, etc.), I feel it was a blessing in disguise.

Had the New Republic gone at the Vong with everything they had early into the invasion, they would have found themselves overwhelmed by a strange technology, and blown to bits. The New Republic has benefitted in one specific way from the retreat of the fleets into the Core; it bought them time to learn how Vong biotechnology worked.

The NR did not have the manpower to take down the Vong at the beginning of the invasion. It wasn't until after Ithor that the shipyards even started churning out new warships. Had the government told Supreme Commander Sovv to go all-out after Sernpidal; we wouldn't be reading the Force Heretic Trilogy, because everyone would be dead. ;)

I couldnt disagree with you more NOVA. Which seems to be the way of things usually. ;)
Kanner Ra'an brought up a good point about numbers and such. But I think the YV answered the question the best when Nom Anor told Tsavong Lah that it was a good thing th didnt come when the Empire was here. Why did he say this? Because they Empire would not have waited to understand technology, try diplomatic means, and all the other wastes of time the NR did. The Empire would have thrown all their might at them and showed them who was boss. I am sure that they even would have had some unkown super weapon hiding somewhere to pick up the slack. Now the NR would not have had the effect the EMpire would have on the YV, if they would have confronted them right away they would have at least made a stand before the YV owned 25 systems to base out of.

Lord Byss
1 June 2003, 07:22 PM
I'll put my lot in with Nova Spice. All the tactics and tecnological innovations the Republic gained far outweighed those of the Vong in the early years (the Vong had already done their scouting, done their research). Ho, humm...

Master Tryka
2 June 2003, 05:37 AM
As sad as I am to agree with someone who thinks Wedge is a better fighter jock then Luke, I gotta agree with Nova Spice. Yes, the NR government dropped the ball when Leia first warned them about the pending doom, but by doing so, it now has the advantage that the Vong did in the beginning, the Vong are far to spread out to be able to turn asside large assaults, the Vong are spread similar in fashion to how the Imps where during the Rebellion. And ok, the NR goes in force to stop the YV at Helska 4, and does what Jacen et. all did anyways, what happens when the YV sneak into the galaxy in a different part or what not, with more troops and a cocky armada of NR ships gets wiped out, and there is little left for the NR government to pull back with? Not to mention the the Remnant probably would have freaked when it noticed the bulk of the NR military right outside it's borders, and seeing its fears of a final defeat realized, may have sought to attack the NR.

Doran
4 June 2003, 02:55 PM
The NR was also being severely corrupted right up until just weeks before the invasion of Coruscant. Nom Anor, in disguise, was turning people against the Jedi and Leia and such and such. Inner conflicts was the government's undoing in my opinion. It was a key point as to why they couldn't work together when they should have.

Cakhmaim
4 June 2003, 08:40 PM
I still believe if they would have fought them right away it would be different. The Vong would never have been able to engineer the Voxyn. Therefore, half the Jedi would not have died from these creatures. Nom Anor would not have been able to develop the Peace Brigade. They would not have been able to turn Jedi over, or start insurrections on planets to rebel against the NR. Also the Spy the Vong had in the government would never have been able to turn over as much info, or influence the board as much.

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 03:27 AM
Of course, Cakhmaim, everything you say is true, and yes the voxyn did kill off half of the Jedi or so, and that would have been great to avoid, but I question, if the NR reacts differently, Im not sure they would have been all out slaughtered in the first few monthes. As far as Viqi Shesh, IMHO she was more or less worthless to the YV. Ya she may have given up some information, but not much if any was all that vital, and she put her spin on whatever she told anyways. Nom Anor could have been into negotiations with the Peace Brigade well before Vedtor Prime, being as he was in galaxy for quite awhile, and much of the anti-Jedi feeling was there prior to Vector Prime.

This may be rambling on a bit, I am a tad bit hungover. Thats what I get for going to a Cheap Trick concert last night hehe.

Darthspectre84
8 June 2003, 03:56 AM
Hi guys i am kind of new here and saw this topic and htought i would jump in cause i just absolutely like the YV.

Firstly no matter how much the NR were less corrupted it would not have worked cause if you remember one particular YV agent who has been in the galaxy for some years. He caused alot of political problems, one of which is the fall of Xandal Carvus of the Imperial Ruling Council.. I should know....imagine my surpirse when i open the book and see a living visual of a YV and not just any YV...

I personally say though that the new Republic was bound to end up destroyed. After all its not the first time. One such incident happenned in the Black Fleet Crisis. Leave it to the politicaisn for such stuff to happen ;)

The Emprie even if not knowing their enemy might have mroe success cause they had ships to spare...which the NR does not have. Also if they left the YV in their corner of the galaxy it would grow cause YV ships grow alot faster and mroe efficeint then the NR.

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 04:06 AM
welcome aboard Darthspectre84

Darthspectre84
8 June 2003, 04:36 AM
Thank you :) and if you guys ever need ideas....well i am full of the. Like once i was soo bored i actually made my own YV creatures lol.

Nova Spice
8 June 2003, 08:53 AM
As sad as I am to agree with someone who thinks Wedge is a better fighter jock then Luke, I gotta agree with Nova Spice.

That hurts Tryka; that hurts. :D


I couldnt disagree with you more NOVA. Which seems to be the way of things usually.

Yea, yea, capitalize my name why don't ya?! :D :P


Kanner Ra'an brought up a good point about numbers and such. But I think the YV answered the question the best when Nom Anor told Tsavong Lah that it was a good thing th didnt come when the Empire was here. Why did he say this? Because they Empire would not have waited to understand technology, try diplomatic means, and all the other wastes of time the NR did. The Empire would have thrown all their might at them and showed them who was boss. I am sure that they even would have had some unkown super weapon hiding somewhere to pick up the slack. Now the NR would not have had the effect the EMpire would have on the YV, if they would have confronted them right away they would have at least made a stand before the YV owned 25 systems to base out of.

Well, I agree that had the Empire still been at it's full military might, the Vong would have been facing a different enemy. Nom was concerned more about the Empire mainly because it would have taken more time to defeat them; the end result would have been much the same as what has happened to the New Republic.

Now, I agree that the Empire would not have gone into diplomatic means of ending the war; Fey'lya's policies during the Edge of Victory duology made me vomit. But I do disagree about the Imperials taking the time to learn more about their technology. The Empire was assuredly mighty and powerful, but they were smart as well, and they knew (and still do) that understanding an enemy is the key to defeating him.

If you look at the early novels, the New Republic is completely overwhelmed by the Yuuzhan Vong's forces. The Rejuvenator (an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer) and her six brand new, fresh from the shipyard Ranger-class gunships were completely annihilated by a few squads of coralskippers, or "destroyed by rocks" as Fey'lya put it in Onslaught.

Looking at the number of ships the Yuuzhan Vong were bringing into the galaxy, had the New Republic sent fleets out immediately after the Rejuvenator and her task force were destroyed, they would have encountered not only more enemy vessels, but would have encountered the same alien technology that bewildered and ultimately destroyed the Rejuvenator and her escorts. The end result would have been a lot of dead starfighter pilots and a lot of drifting capital ships, ripped to pieces. At this point, Shedao Shai's flotilla was entering the arena to lead the invasion in the wake of the Praetorite Vong. Imagine the utter mayhem and chaos that would have ensued if both NR and YV fleets engaged each other so early in the conflict; the New Republic would have lost hundreds of valuable ships and perhaps the Vong would have been destroyed (Shedao Shai's fleets anyway). The New Republic then returns back to it's space, bruised badly, but under the assumption that the Vong have been destroyed. This is where it get's bad.

Tsavong Lah's wave would emerge and the New Republic would have far less to defend itself with due to their "assumption" that the Vong would have been repelled. Now we would see the Vong charging into the Core months before they did in the actual series. That's why I think the NR was better off not going all out early. ;)

Darthspectre84
8 June 2003, 11:34 AM
I know i am the "newbie" :) but hasnt the same situation happened now in NJO. The NR have lost almost all their ships, their capital and half the galaxy. Only the parts that are left functional are like veterans in the conflict and can fight the average YV. BUt they hardly have the resources they had before.

I am not debating the fact if they fought early they would have won....some good points brought out. My point is that either way they lost alot. And given time the YV can come back to their feet.

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 11:54 AM
well, yes there have been substancial loses, but there is still alot of bang in the NR's gun. Look at the whooping they gave at the end of Destiny's Way. That and the shipyards are gettin into gear. The bigest thing is manpower, which they will have plenty once they start training refugees. And again, we go back to how spread out the YV forces are, and a NR battlegroup can slowly pick them off one at a time. Thats the YV's biggest mistake was not taking out the shipyards. Thats just common sense in warfare, you destroy their ability to rearm, so that there is a very limited amount of enemy your facing. I would think that the YV, as militaristic as they are would realize this and not allow these abominations to be built, especially considering the fist thing they did was turn Belkadan into a supply yard, and attempt to turn Sernpidal into another worldship. So they obviously know the most important thing they needed was ways to provide more ships and weapons and communications.

Nova Spice
8 June 2003, 03:49 PM
well, yes there have been substancial loses, but there is still alot of bang in the NR's gun. Look at the whooping they gave at the end of Destiny's Way. That and the shipyards are gettin into gear. The bigest thing is manpower, which they will have plenty once they start training refugees. And again, we go back to how spread out the YV forces are, and a NR battlegroup can slowly pick them off one at a time. Thats the YV's biggest mistake was not taking out the shipyards. Thats just common sense in warfare, you destroy their ability to rearm, so that there is a very limited amount of enemy your facing. I would think that the YV, as militaristic as they are would realize this and not allow these abominations to be built, especially considering the fist thing they did was turn Belkadan into a supply yard, and attempt to turn Sernpidal into another worldship. So they obviously know the most important thing they needed was ways to provide more ships and weapons and communications.

I agree that the New Republic (aka Galactic Alliance) has some fight left. Ebaq IX was a total victory for the galaxy's remaining defenders; but I do not attribute that to militarily overpowering the Vong. That was an example of brilliant strategy executed by Admiral Ackbar. The New Republic was still outgunned by the Vong, but by following Ackbar's plan, they were able to whittle the scarheads down and eventually wipe them out.

And the Vong have somewhat gone against the NR shipbuilding capabilities. Bear in mind, that Fondor, the biggest shipyard, has been defunct for some three years thanks to the Centerpoint fiasco. Kuat, Corellia, Talaan, and Bilbringi are guarded by massive fleets (upwards of eighty percent of the New Republic's remaining fleet). Because the Vong are having to replenish their losses, attacking a major shipyard is not going to be profitable at this point. And of course the Vong have yet to have a chance to hit Mon Calamari because of how remote the world is. But, having read previews for The Final Prophecy and The Unifying Force, it seems that the Vong are going to attempt to lay waste to these worlds.

Besides when you break it down, the YV can still "grow" their ships at a faster and more efficient rate than the GA. For every one GA ship constructed, the Vong will have two or three. That's not very good odds. :D

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 04:43 PM
Don't want to waste space quoting Nova Spice

See this is why I gotta avoid EU discussions with Nova... I am severly outgunned and I can't find Ackbar anywhere, probably off sitting in some hot tub Tycho's old lady. :winter:

Granted, it was strategy and not brute force that won Ebaq 9, just like it was at Borleias and Obroa-Skai. But should we expect anything else from the heroe (and heroines) of the Rebellion? Thats how they did it in the first place and its just recyeling itself. I forgot Fondor, this is true but that was still a fairly decent sized force in the Core, and add to it some if not all the Imperial forces as well as hopefully more Chiss (go clawcrafts) and I think things are looking fairly decent for the GA.

I gotta reread all the EU before I get going with Nova again, cause soon I'll be gettin an email telling me he shot this full or holes too. :D

Maybe I gotta get some help to fend of Nova. :noghri: hmm this :marajade: is better on the eyes (among other things) though.

Hehe (Luke's still a better pilot. "You worry about those fighters, I'll worry about the tower!" "Get clear Wedge you can't do anymore good back there!" Besides, Wedge still needs a targeting computer.)

Nova Spice
8 June 2003, 07:07 PM
Hehe (Luke's still a better pilot. "You worry about those fighters, I'll worry about the tower!" "Get clear Wedge you can't do anymore good back there!" Besides, Wedge still needs a targeting computer.)

Cheap shot! :D :P


I gotta reread all the EU before I get going with Nova again, cause soon I'll be gettin an email telling me he shot this full or holes too.

Haha! I love debating things, so it comes naturally. I'll take this as a compliment for which I am thankful. ;)

P.S. I'm with you. I think things are starting to turn the GA's way. Although I anticipate many more losses for the good guys before this series concludes.

Master Tryka
8 June 2003, 07:18 PM
It was meant to be a compliment, and you're welcome. And yes, I agree the tide is turning, being as we got what, 3 books left or something. I'm not sure we will see many more militaristic loses, and I was thinking of more small painful loses. Ackbars out, he had it, hes done. He'll die in piece. I'd like to think that we'd lose another semi-major character or two, but as much flack as they took from Chewie and to a degree Anakin, this seems unlikely. The budding romances will blossom and such, probably a little more character development on these lessor characters that will come more into the fold to set up for more post NJO books, which are gonna happen because we are all gonna buy them when they do and ask ourselves whos a better pilot Jag Fel or Jaina Solo (althought my money's on little Skywalker, he'll kick the crap out of Wedge's kid if he has one) and so on and so forth. I am worried Alpha Red (hmm or Agent Red if some prefer :D) will play a roll of some sort, and thats just wrong. Seeing REUNION as a title for the next book, one wonders, who will be reunited???

Darthspectre84
9 June 2003, 02:45 AM
I agree that the tide is turning....the only thing that goes agaisnt the YV is that they dont learn from their mistakes. Cause they are fanatics and are extremely stubborn....also the fact that a number of them are jsut dumb :).....but wait for Nem Yim...once she brings the new power we will see a new change. I have no doubt that the GA will win this war....either a stalemate between forces or the surrender of the YV.

But i would hope and predict that once the war is over....that the YV caste system is split and each caste fends for itself. Which may make it more dangerous cause all the traditions and protocols will be ignored. And the castes can work alone. The Shapers can make beasts to help them in war, the priests are elite fighters and can also work, the Intendents have the Praetorite, and the warriors can definately work on their own.
And also we dont know the fulll history of the YV....they say they are on a "crusade" but what happens if in fact theya re running from a greater foe? And what about the YV own galaxy...did they leave it entirely or are some members of their species left there? And after the war some Imperial factions may try to mix YV biotech with mechtech to produce hyrbid ships, in a war with the former NR. Alot of questions.