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starkiller210
1 June 2003, 02:26 PM
Should the New republic use agent red against the Yhuuzhan Vong?

Personally I am against Genocide but, in this case It looks like The New Republic is going to win and the decision to use it seems like Truman decision in world war II, launch the atom bomb (or use agent red in this case) to prevent more casualties.

wolverine
2 June 2003, 03:04 AM
Hell no.

For one, we can never be certain, that they (the vong) don't have their own human killing, bio weapon, and just have not used it. If we unlease ours, what is to stop them using theirs?

What about mutations?

There are just too many unknowns to worry about.

Master Tryka
2 June 2003, 05:28 AM
I gotta agree, there are far far too many unknowns with it, plus once you let it out, you will not be able to control it.

Crymoon
3 June 2003, 02:11 AM
There are many reasons why the asnwers is NO.

First - they would be equall to Vong if they did it...

Second - Would it work? We mustn't forget that Vongs are biospecialists...

Third - already mentioned it may mutate (look at SARS - it was just a common pig or duck flu - as scientists now say - and look what it does now...)

Master Tryka
3 June 2003, 04:20 AM
Anyone who voted yes, what are your reasons? I can probably imagine them, but still I'd like to hear why you'd take the risk.

Jim Williams
3 June 2003, 04:24 AM
If you become your enemy...cold and merciless, then your enemy has one.

Also, there is too much of a chance for the disease to run amock and kill everything. In the U.S. there used to be a "popular" saying..."Better dead than red." Faced with possibility of complete annihlation, I'd say "Better red than dead."

Unless the YV were found to be planning to absolutely destroy every sentient native species to the SW galaxy. As a non-Jedi, I'd say let them have it when the prospect of winning was hopeless. As a Jedi, I'd rather be destroyed, and every thinking creature with me native to the galaxy instead of destroying all life in the galaxy.

farr0095
3 June 2003, 04:35 AM
I can't see a reason to use the weapon, no matter the cost. While not everyone in the galaxy knows the full cultural structure of the YV, there has to be (which we know) a social order that includes those who are not apt fighters. Complete and blatant murder of those innocents demoralizes the GA, thereby making them as bad as the governments they fought so hard to replace (the Empire).

Jedi_Staailis
3 June 2003, 06:18 AM
Interesting discussion here. I think think the NR was right to avoid using Agent Red at the time. However, it's easy to take the question further and make it a whole lot less clear. What do you do if the NR has no hope of winning a conventional war? Everything that isn't a Vong (and a significant part of their culture) will be either anhilliated or enslaved.


If you become your enemy...cold and merciless, then your enemy has [won].
The Vong's objective isn't to make everyone else hearless and evil. Their goal is to enslave every species that is not a Yuuzhan Vong. In that sense, the Vong certainly don't win. Nor do the other species. A whole number of things can happen. If the disease goes bad and mutates, everyone loses. If it works as planned, the other species of the galaxy survive more or less intact. Would it be a horrible atrocity? Yes. But when faced with the end of civilization as they know it, a life of pain, and an the atrocity of the scale that the Vong propose, I say take the lesser of two evils. Some situations have no good choices.

Jedi Master Talon
3 June 2003, 09:12 AM
No because you never know what the YV might have and their are the Shamed Ones that are Rebeling and you don't want to kill them because then it might start a war with the Jedi and the galaxy would be in disary again. Besides the Shamed Ones might join the Republic.

Lord Kjeran
3 June 2003, 11:12 AM
Chello!

No....but the Empire should! :D

Master Tryka
3 June 2003, 11:14 AM
Well heck yeah, I am sure everyone would be in agreement if Palpy was still grippin to power that Agent Ren would be loaded into what ever he could find and would have been used already. He loved his damn superweapons.

Kanner Ra'an
3 June 2003, 11:46 AM
Hell no.
Though i dont give two tears in a bucket about being just as bad as your enemy and all that, but it is just plain stupid. Their is no way you can truthfully say that on one of those millions of planets the vong control that their wont be something that mutates it. That is hard enough to do here on earth, try a galaxy.

farr0095
3 June 2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Kanner Ra'an
Hell no.
Though i dont give two tears in a bucket about being just as bad as your enemy and all that, but it is just plain stupid. Their is no way you can truthfully say that on one of those millions of planets the vong control that their wont be something that mutates it. That is hard enough to do here on earth, try a galaxy.

I gotta say I find that pretty funny coming from a guy who's flavor text is:

Warlord, Mass Muderer, and General Bad Guy, (Im just missuderstood, Got It)

:D

Tramp
3 June 2003, 05:29 PM
Agent red should never be used under any circumstances. As stated above, it is too much of a Pandora's Box that once opened could too easily go out of control.

Cakhmaim
4 June 2003, 08:08 AM
I totally agree that it should not be used. In fact I would even say that Palpitine would not use it. Not because of the mass genocide, we know he doesn't care about that. It is too unperdictible. Everything he used was very controlled. He knew when it would happen, who it would affect, where it was safe to be, and how long it would take. Agent Red had too many unkowns to spread across the galaxy even for the Emperor. look at the Death STar amazing destructive power, but controlled. The Star Crusher is the same. Able to destroy whole systems, but still you knew the extent of the weapon, no unkowns. i fear that if you use agent red it will turn into another Krytos when it mutates.

Admiral Noshow
4 June 2003, 09:13 AM
I think the Agent Red thingy should be used personnally.Ya I know everyone is saying that it will mutate and destroy all the life in the Galaxy. But why not just quarrintine all the planets owned by Vongs, waut a couple years and then just go chack it out and repopulate. You would only really need to worry about it if it got Hairy anyways. Also the chiss basicaly garunteed it safe for use.

Kanner Ra'an
4 June 2003, 11:53 AM
But why not just quarrintine all the planets owned by Vongs, waut a couple years and then just go chack it out and repopulate. You would only really need to worry about it if it got Hairy anyways. Also the chiss basicaly garunteed it safe for use.

If we were talking about one or two worlds then no problem. But the Yuuzhan Vong control millions of worlds, many still with the native populations living their. As for the garuntee by the Chiss, like i already said your telling me that they can account for every variable and organism it will encounter on all those millions of planets. I think its a scientific immpossibility.

Tramp
4 June 2003, 12:30 PM
Kanner Brings up a very good point, as does Cakhaim-


Originally posted by Cakhmaim
I totally agree that it should not be used. In fact I would even say that Palpitine would not use it. Not because of the mass genocide, we know he doesn't care about that. It is too unperdictible. Everything he used was very controlled. He knew when it would happen, who it would affect, where it was safe to be, and how long it would take. Agent Red had too many unkowns to spread across the galaxy even for the Emperor. look at the Death STar amazing destructive power, but controlled. The Star Crusher is the same. Able to destroy whole systems, but still you knew the extent of the weapon, no unkowns. i fear that if you use agent red it will turn into another Krytos when it mutates.

Palpatine and the Empire have created Biological weapons in the past, however the've never actually released any of them , except the Krytos plague. Even then, that was Ysaan, Isaard's doing; Palatine would never have done so even with his anti-alien bias because there's too much chance of the germ mutating and groing out of control.

Master Tryka
4 June 2003, 12:50 PM
Page 7 of Destiny's Way


"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander," Han said. "What the Empire would have done was build a supercolossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equiped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They's forget to bolt down a metal plate ove an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."

Han Solo to Commander Dorja.

Cakhmaim
4 June 2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Tramp
Kanner Brings up a very good point, as does Cakhaim-



Palpatine and the Empire have created Biological weapons in the past, however the've never actually released any of them , except the Krytos plague. Even then, that was Ysaan, Isaard's doing; Palatine would never have done so even with his anti-alien bias because there's too much chance of the germ mutating and groing out of control.

I know they have engineered them in the past. I know the Emperor would not have allowed the Krytos to be unleashed the way it was. But after he was gone the Empire did a lot of things he never would have allowed. Even though he was a mass murderer he was nothing short of methodical.

As for what HAn said in Destiny's Way, he is only partially right. The Death Star did have an easy blow point, but it did work. Also what about the Sun Crusher? It worked and it was unstoppable.


As For the Chiss they cannot plan for everything. That was proven with Thrawn. He didn't realize a few things until it was too late. Also how can they plan for the Vong Biotechnology that is constantly evolving?

Wedge in Red2
5 June 2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Noshow
But why not just quarrintine all the planets owned by Vongs, waut a couple years and then just go chack it out and repopulate. You would only really need to worry about it if it got Hairy anyways. Also the chiss basicaly garunteed it safe for use.

Just to follow up on Kanner Ra'an's point - quarantining a planet is not that easy. If you lived on a planet and you thought you might catch this nasty virus, wouldn't you try to leave? Do you really think the GA could stop a planet full of people from leaving? If you've watched Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman, Cuba Gooding Jr etc., you see the US army quarantining a small town, and they get people trying to escape. Imagine this on a planetary scale. You can't block every hyperspace route out of there. You can't react quickly enough to intercept all outbound ships (even with extremely risky hyperspace micro-jumps).

So, in summary, I don't think quarantining would work.

Jon

Cakhmaim
5 June 2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Wedge in Red2


Just to follow up on Kanner Ra'an's point - quarantining a planet is not that easy. If you lived on a planet and you thought you might catch this nasty virus, wouldn't you try to leave? Do you really think the GA could stop a planet full of people from leaving? If you've watched Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman, Cuba Gooding Jr etc., you see the US army quarantining a small town, and they get people trying to escape. Imagine this on a planetary scale. You can't block every hyperspace route out of there. You can't react quickly enough to intercept all outbound ships (even with extremely risky hyperspace micro-jumps).

So, in summary, I don't think quarantining would work.

Jon

This is a good point. Just look at Episode I. They had a blockcade around Naboo, and still a ship with no weapons made it past. If someone on there was carrying a deadly virus it would have spread.

Nova Spice
6 June 2003, 09:14 AM
Just to be the methodical and precise person that I am; the actual term is Alpha Red, not Agent Red.

I would agree with Jon that quarantining a town is difficult enough, much less a planet, and even more so, an entire sector. Alpha Red would kill everything it hit; every planet it touched would become a barren rock of a world. And unless that world was already barren (i.e. Ithor, Kessel, etc.) then I'd be totally against Alpha Red's use.

Who wants everyone wiped out?

Darthspectre84
8 June 2003, 04:18 AM
I would have to say....No. CAuse as already said it would be unpredictable. As all biological weapons are, and the YV might even modify it, difficult but not impossible cause it affects YV tech as well.

I would seriously doubt the warrior caste would use it though cause most of thema re honourable, evil but honourable warriors. The Intendant and Shaper classes would probably use it.

And i doubt a number of the good NR senators and guys would sue it cause of the saying said already: that if they did it the enemy has won. Its not about the enemies goal, its about being a murderer. its about lowering your standards. How can you say you are civilised if you do something the barbarians would use. There is that point to consider.

And its already been said that the planet blockade, already answered. Cannot be done now, too late. The YV already control most of the galaxy and are trying to recuperate from their loses by sending others races to attack eachother. Like the terrible end of the scourge of the Black Fleet crisis, who i should say were a cool race. And you underestimate the need for a creature to sruvive, if a planet is blockaded and humans are their they will be so scared they will try their best to escape. Its natural.