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Tossk
27 June 2003, 08:29 AM
As of late, many forumgoers seemto use the trems "Munchkin" and "Power Gamer" or "Min/Maxer" interchangeably, and it's striking a nerve with me. First of all, a Power Gamer is someone that ries to be very good and very useful within their capacity. A min/Maxer is someone who tries to make their weaknesses as remote as posible, and maximize what they are good at for the best effect. A Mucnhkin doesn't give a flying monkey for what the story is, they just want to be the best at everything they find, and the tend to want to dominate everything in their path, and mainly hog the limelight for as long as they can, usually incorporating power gaming among other techniques to meet their ends. In the end, no one likes a Munchkin, but many players will power game or min/max to a degree just because they'd like their PCs to be good at something. Many players are fine with their friend being real good at piloting and shooting, but that same person can't even come close to the shmoozing of another PC who can't shoot worth bantha spit. but a PC that does all of that and weilds a double-bladed lightsaber that deals 10d8+12 points of damage and can call their fleet to bear in nanoseconds is certifiably muchkin, because I know of no GM who would allow it to be so in their right mind. Munchkins also go out of the game to whine and complain their way to the point that the GM just lets the do "Whatever." Power gamers and Min/Maxers tend to ask to use PrCs or feats from official sources or here in a decent manner, so as to preserve the fun of the other players and the game balance, which are two of the most important things for the GM to keep steady and hold fast to.

Boy that was long. I feel better now, but my rear is sore...:rolleyes: [dang lack-of-chair!]

farr0095
27 June 2003, 03:22 PM
That's a very nice summary as well as a well-thought out rant, I think. That being said, I think that it's easy to turn from a Min/Max'er to a Munchkin without much trouble because of the desire to make your character powerful without flaws.

That being said...

Hear, Hear!

Crin Daroota
27 June 2003, 06:54 PM
Wow, Tossk.

That's the first time I think I've seen those terms spelled out. Thanks for clearing that up for me, because I hadn't known the differences exactly.

We certainly have a Munchkin in our party. A female Rodian dancer who secretly works for the Republic, a supposed scoundrel who always charges into battle, then whines about getting shot and tries to argue the GM's math when it happens. I guess her net-shooting, rocket-booted custom armor doesn't save her as much as she thought it would. The first to call out "I shoot him" or "I search the bodies" while the GM is still explaining the setup. Once the "scoundrel" charged into battle, at level two, and an anti-personnel missile was launched at the Force Adept she was behind. The player couldn't understand why he didn't get a +4 cover bonus to his defense, after it missed the Force Adept. He must've argued with the GM for 5-10 minutes about why he no longer got a stupid cover bonus. (Uhh, coz it wasn't aimed at you to begin with, then it missed him, passed by, and is now headed at you?) My character and the Bothan now have the Gunner feat (no more -4s on turret rolls), and the Rodian's playe is so pissed that we don't have to take the minuses anymore, and he does. Well, it's not what he chose to take, so there. That's the end of that, right? Nope. Somehow he's managed to convince the GM that he should take less penalties now too. No matter he didn't take the feat when he had a chance to. It started as a +1 bonus (down to -3) and now it's made its way to +2 somehow. *cough* whiner *cough*

Sorry, I guess I got on a rant there, too.

Satyrgrrrrl
27 June 2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Crin Daroota
Sorry, I guess I got on a rant there, too.

It's easy to do when speaking of Munchkins.

Amen, Tossk.

Though you cannot ever define every aspect of Munchkinism (it does, after all, come in many forms), you did an excellent job in contrasting it agains Min/Maxing and Power Gaming.

People should read this thread before they start throwing "Power Gamer" around like an insult.

As a GM for Power Gamers, I can tell you that they are (mostly) a joy to have. It's nice to have PCs that are actually good at what they do, and those Power Gamers are also my best Role-Players, proving to me that you can, in fact, be both a good Role-Player and Power Gamer.

Everybody wants their character to do something well, that's the point of having a "focus" to a character. It's nice to succeed, but Munchkins are the type of player that wants to, perhaps even needs to, succeed at everything, to the point of cheating.

I've dealt with many a different Munchkin in my time, and I'm glad to say that I game with none currently.

Power Gamers all the way!! :D

Sasche
28 June 2003, 05:19 AM
I definitely agree to your definition of the Munchkin. But I don't see a big difference between Power Gamer and Min/Maxer. Is there supposed to be one?
I realize that Munchkins are obviously negative by your definition and the other two are positive players.

I hope that I fall into the Min Maxer category. I have played a Tech Spec who has an unbelieveable Comp Use skill. Even at low levels, he was amazing other players with his ability. But this came at a price. For 5 levels, he was unsuccessful in combat (the "min"). And when I say unsuccessful, I think he only had two hits in all of the combats until he finally multiclassed into Soldier at 5th level.
This made for some great roleplaying though. I didn't have a problem with my PC being a lousy shot. It was actully quite fun. And we always had other PCs in the group to make up for it.
After our party is surrounded by a large group of "bad guys"...
Bad Guys: "Drop your weapons"
Tech Spec: (with no hesitation, throws down weapon) "No problem"

And they always loved it when my PC's great Comp Use score would regenerate the transport's shields! And the +2 to the turret shooters were also appreciated. **winks at Crin**

---now my own personal rant---
I play in Crin's group, and I know the Rodian that he is talking about. Ugh. This Munchkin doesn't seem to understand the concept of "turn based combat". After he does a move, then shoots, the GM describes the results. Maybe the Rodian gets too excited but then he shouts, "well then I'm going to run here and shoot this!"
Meanwhile, the other 4 players are waiting patiently for their turn. He seems to get upset when we make him wait for his turn!
And this coming from one of the worst "Rules Lawyers" I have ever seen. He always has an opinion whenever anyone has the slightest question. Even when the GM invents a simple rule due to the situation being quite trivial, the "Rules Lawyer" says, "Oh, no. The table on page XXX says that you have to beat a DC 15 countered by the opponents Spot check!"
Blah Blah Blah. Would you shut up! The GM had it under control!

Grimace
28 June 2003, 11:55 AM
I'm going to post something that I wrote up on this very same site back in April of 2000. I'm not sure if it's still saved in the archive (I'm being lazy and don't want to look) but thankfully I saved it to my hard drive as well.

So here's my take on munchkins, powergamers, and min/maxers:



Whoa there! Reign in those horses before they go running amuck across the country-side.

As I indicated, and what I think was in the original post that started this thread, was that power-gamers and munchkins were NOT one and the same. Allow me to give some brief examples and semi-definitions to see where I think the words fall.

Powergamer = plays a character capable of flying 4 times the speed of light, can resist nearly any damage, and has enough strength to pick up an 8 lane highway and shake it like a rug. The other players in the game all have powerful characters as well. One has the ability to become intangible so as to pass through anything and not be affected by any attack that has physical substance. Additionally he emits focued sound beams which cause the physical structures of solid objects to shake apart on a cellular level. Another might be someone that doesnít move very fast, but once he decides to go somewhere, or to stay someplace, nothing can stop them from doing so. Their strength in such feats is immeasurable and their endurance to resist damage while attempting such feats is equally amazing.

These are powergamers. They are not necessarily munchkins or min/maxers. The players play characters who are not wimpy by any means. Against a normal person, theyíd squash them! Against a moderate bad guy, theyíd dispatch him without much trouble. The bad guys in powergames must be enormously difficult. They need to be the "Iím going to destroy the World!" type of bad guys, rather than the, "I stole the old ladyís purse." type of bad guy. There is nothing wrong with games of this type if there is more than one person at this level and if the GM understands the power levels and pits the players against equally challenging enemies.

Min/Maxer = This type of player can exists in either a powergame or a regular game. Typically Min/Maxers vary in levels, with the higher levels being "munchkin". Example of min/maxer is this:
Player one has a knight. He follows a strict code of chivalry and carries a gleaming longsword. The knight himself wears the established royal chest plate over the top of chain mail and padding. Another player plays a thief who loves gems. He does anything to get gems, including risking his life if the gem is big enough. He wields 2 daggers with specially designed hooks on the end to help pry imbedded gems from their resting places. He wears only light armor and a darkened cloak to help him blend into the background so that he may sneak better. The third player is playing a fighter with 18/95 strength and 18 constitution. Dexterity is the next highest with 17 and none of the other skills fall below a 12. He wields a bastard sword since it, singularly, provides the most damage for the best price and can be carried one or two handed. Heís got the best armor that doesnít affect his Dexterity and has used any advantages to pick specific combat modifiers, including blind fighting, endurance, and two handed fighting. He knows that he only has to kill 12 creatures before he has enough experience to gain more life and another advantage which heís already picked out as it provides the best combat edge. His goal is to kill the evil wizard and all of his minions.

The third is the min/maxer, with a higher tendency to put him *near*, though in my opinion, not in the "munchkin" category. You can tell heís min/maxing largely because he has focused specifically on the skills that pertain to combat and usually refers to these skills as numbers rather than ability. ("Iím very strong" vs. "Iíve got an 18/55 strength") Min/maxers can have goals, though they tend to have it centered specifically around their characters class of abilities. If itís a fighter, their goal will be largely combat oriented, if theyíre a magic user, the goal will be to find a spellbook or something of the like. If theyíre a thief, theyíre the best at climbing walls (highest attribute number) and their goal will simply be treasure in general, usually the highest priced treasure. No min/maxer will go after a large gem on the threat of their life if they could tell that the gem was only worth 1,000 gold. If it was a super rare gem, however, and the thief knew this, the dollar signs would start clicking. The difference between a min/maxer and the second "thief" character described above is that the thief is willing to go after ANY gem that was large. The larger the better! If he saw a diamond that he knew was worth 10,000 gold, but also saw a Emerald of enormous size, but was only worth 2,000 gold, heís stay in character and go for the Emerald first. A normal player might also grab the diamond too, as he *is* a thief. The min/maxer will go first for the most expensive and best pay-off one, then maybe the other if he knew he could get it.

Min/maxers also have the tendency to get the best armor, even though their character might not "fit" right in the attire. Imagine the chivalrous knight, fighting for honor. He comes across a magical armor that give +2 against all attacks and fire resistance. The only problem is that itís jet black and seems to eminate the look of evil. (The thing doesnít even need to be evil alignment, just look evil) If he puts it on anyway, heís probably a min/maxer. If he puts it on and later sells his previous armor to get as much money from them as he can, not caring a shred for them anymore since heís got better armor now, then heís certainly a min/maxer.

Note that even though heís a min/maxer, heís not a power gamer as his character isnít overly powerful compared to the others. Sure heís got a very strong strength. At least heís not 30th level fighter or a dragon in human form or any such thing. Not all min/maxers are powergamers, and not all powergamers are min/maxers.

Muchkins = These guys are usually extreme min/maxers as well as either powergamers or poor roleplayers. An example. One guy is a rough and tumble Sergeant, whoís been in the army for 20 years and is tough as nails. Heís trained to kill you quickly and quietly, and heíll have no remorse when heís done. Another is a computer specialist. He can crack any computer code or security lock. Heís got so many gadgets and gizmos to help him tell how many people are near, what their heartbeat is, and where they are exactly. If he canít outwit people in the tech department, he can still defend himself as heís a qualified black belt in martial arts. The third is a Special Forces commando. Heís trained to be a marksman in every single weapon invented, heís a master in all forms of unarmed combat because he was trained by the masters themselves. Heís got a fancy, new experimental type of body armor that is impervious to every type of bullet and knife. Nothing can penetrate it! He carries a specially modified, miniaturized 20 millimeter hand cannon, capable of shooting special bullets that can pierce entire buildings. It carries 30 of these fantastic rounds in a clip and has a rate of fire of 10 a second with no recoil whatsoever. Additionally heís taken a secret serum thatís given him amazing healing qualities, and any wound will heal in less than a minute. This serum also gave him increased strength, so heís able to jump extra high, climb walls by punching into the side with his bare hands, and allowing him to run a marathon without getting tired.

Notice how this third person is too powerful for the game that they are playing. You basically have two characters that are "standard" power characters, then you have one that can dispatch anyone with a single punch, and those he canít punch he can shoot. Anyone the GM throws at the group will be killed by this munchkin if the GM makes it at the power level of the first two (or maybe a little higher) If the GM throws super soldiers against the team, the first two guys will die pitifully, and the munchkin will still probably fair pretty well. Too over powered. Additionally, the munchkin is min/maxing. Heís the best in everything he does. Heís super strong and can run forever. Heís got the best armor and the absolute best weapon. The munchkin would never think of weilding a "common" weapon or ever think of taking his armor off. The munckin will sleep in his armor and do everything in his armor. His weapon will never run out of ammunition, and if the GM says it does, the munchkin will add in the fact "Oh, Iíve been trained to make my own rounds for this weapon, that way I could always survive no matter where I was." Heíll save the spent shell casings and make more. Munchkins maximize damage and survivability and minimize negative effects or chances to die.

There is my rough example and semi-definition on munchkins, min/maxers, and powergamers. I donít have a real problem with powergamers, I just donít play that way normally. And as I had stated above, it seems to be a trend that powergamers, especially of the younger variety, slowly become munchkins; being unable to differentiate between low level games and high level games. Min/maxers only bug me. I know quite a few people like this. However, as I said, there are varying levels of min/maxers. Only the extreme cases become munchkins in my book. If I personally notice min/maxers in games that I run, I take steps to alter their continued min/maxing, usually be pitting them against something that they canít defeat by normal, calculated methods.

Munchkins are nearly anyone who plays characters that are too powerful in comparison to the rest of the group, AS WELL AS the rest of the world. Munchkins generally have little, if any, background for their character and nearly any goals that are farther-reaching than "kill everyone". Iím sure Iím probably missing something else in here that would further define a munchkin, but Iím positive that Iíve gone on long enough.

Iíll stop now.

(You may all breath a sigh of relief)

Kanner Ra'an
28 June 2003, 01:24 PM
I am a power gamer. I like to excel at my purpose, which since i play soldiers is killing things. I couldn't talk my way out of a paper bag but i could sure blow it into a million peices. Thankfully aside from one jedi guardian none of the groups i've played in have munchkins. Those guys should just be thrown out and never allowed back again.

Tossk
28 June 2003, 02:29 PM
Wow, and i'd thought I was gonna be schooled here! Thanks for the addition, Grimace. I was, when I first played, shamefully, quite a Munchkin, but after the first game, I saw no one was having much fun, and I was crushing everything, so I looked around, and checked things out, then the next games were much more in tune with the rules, and I played better characters. I now consider myself recovered, and I like to think of myself as a Min/Maxer. I like to be darn good in what my PC should be, and pretty bad it what he shouldn't be.

sjard
28 June 2003, 03:09 PM
and for the last 20 years those three terms have been nearly the same with our local game group. while there is always a bit of min maxing for any character, those who work hard to be that way has always been refered to as a munchkin. powergamer has been a slightly more polite term for that. for the last 18 years about, we've used the following terms (thanks to a rather amusing to read listfrom the early 80s).

Real Men
Real Roleplayers
Loonies
and
Munchkins.

http://www.seiyuu.com/okamoto/frp/realmen.htm

now, by the previously posted terms i can see where people are coming from. i'm just letting you know where i'm coming from. so no hard feelings if we ever come into conflict due to semantics.


sjard.

Sasche
28 June 2003, 07:26 PM
OK, here's a question.
On many other threads, a large number of people seem to think that the Tech Spec class is "understrengthed" compared to the other base classes.
Many people look at different aspects and ways to try to even up the class in their view.

So, the Min/maxer will look at possible changes and think that the class needs better Special Qualities. Maybe some bonus feats that fit well with the class (Cautious, Gearhead, Surgery and maybe some other similar ones).

The Munchkin wants higher VP dice. Wants 8 skill points per level. And the munchkin is really upset that the class doesn't get at least Blaster Pistols as a starting weapons group.

Maybe the Powergamer wouldn't care if the class was changed or not. He would acknowledge that the PC wouldn't be powerful at the beginning, but at the higher levels.... look out!

coldskier0320
28 June 2003, 09:18 PM
Ahh, OK I will admit that i am a bonafide min/max-er (Of, my two PCs in Kanner's Backlash, the Duro has Dex 20, Int 20, Str 6, Con 6, and the Human is all about his two merr-sonn IR-5s, and the ten attacks he can get per round with them if he plans it right).

But in that realm, i understand that in order to be really, really god at some things, you must really, really stink, terribly, at most everything else. For example, neither of m Backlash PCs could bum a decicred to make a call home, but the Duro is the best pilot you'd care to fly with and the human can have more blaster bolts than you can shake a stick at in the air before you knew just how screwed you were.

IMHO, the difference between a power gamer and a munchkin is that the power gamer will find some loophole or weird ability coincidence in the rules to get things to work the way he wants (ok with X feat i get this SQ which would allow me to use this blaster at a +5 bonus!!!). The munchkin, however, simply whines to get the rules to change for him.

Another difference is in the backstories, if a power gamer makes a PC with Cha 17 and Wis 17 but Str 9, the backstory is gonna be something like a little dude who always got picked on, so he learned to have quick wits and a smooth tongue to get through rough spots. If a munchkin makes a PC with high Wis and Cha but low Str, he's, first of all, gonna have a skimpy backstory at best. And at that, it will probably consist of his characterjust having a natural wisdom and charisma that allowed them to sweet talk their way out of imperial detention cells by schmoozing the big DV himself.

As for the min/max-ers, i think they are simply people who think that with their respective system, the are a more effective player if they sacrifice certain abilities in order to boost others. As Grimace said, there are varying degrees of this ranging from what I consider myself, the highly specialized character that roleplays to reflect his (dis)advantages all the way to the munchkin who does just the opposite, using the results of skill checks to determine how his character acts.

As far as munchkins, well, there are many, many things that can cause this, mostly it is due to babying the player or allowing him or her to take power gaming or min/max-ing to excess.

Well, there's my two cents...hey, wait!!! Now i dont have enough to get that fancy uber, 8d6 damage, penalty-free autofire DOOM style chaingun for my Hoojib/Wookiee hybrid!!!:P :D ;) :rolleyes:

Tossk
29 June 2003, 05:30 AM
In the Techie example, a Min/Maxer would go for Tech Specialist, and put high scores in Intelligence and low ones in Strength and Constiution, the Power Gamer would got Scoundrel or Tech Specialist/Scoundrel mix, for more skill points and other nice ablilities. The Munchkin would whine and complain until they could gget a new class with the best saves form both classses, all the abilities, and get the Soldier Defense and the Soldier BAB progressions. That's my take on it.

Dr_Worm
30 June 2003, 09:25 PM
We all seem to agree on the definition of a munchkin, but from there I slightly diverge. I really think that the definition of a powergamer is one that uses the rules, regradless of logical character flow, to their own advantage. This is metagaming IMO and not something I really like in my games. For instance in the D20 foum Greymarch has a thread that outlines how to make a Jedi that can do 10d8 damage with their lightsaber. Each character transition is, technically, within the rules, however none of it makes sense as a logical character transition. To alter your characters logical progression so that you can get the most within the rules, is what I define as powergaming. Where as the munchkin is somone who will alter or ignore the rules to make their character Uber poop, the powergamer uses rules, or loop holes in the rules, to metagame their characters in to mega power.

Now I have had players that ended up taking a very fortunatel path, stats wise, but that is secondary to actual character progression. I do not consider this powergaming, just fortune.

A min/maxer is simply a character that put's all thier eggs in one basket. While this type of character only works in my games if others can make up for their failings, I do not actively discourage this type of character. Passivly perhaps because of my GMing style, but not actively. I think min/maxers are really fun when a group of players designs their characters together to make use of eachother's strengths.

wolverine
1 July 2003, 09:46 AM
I will agree with that assessment Dr worm. I have always regarded a power gamer like a rules lawyer. Someone who owns or can get his hands on every book for X system. He memorizes all the rules, and spouts them off. He will also play WITHIN said rules to make his character better off. They invariabily also use this knowledge to help the others in the party be better than they could otherwise.

While a munchkin would only use those rules which help him and him alone, and ◊◊◊◊◊ moan, and whine when he (OR SHE) does not get his or her way. They also usually care nothing for the other characters, and sometimes even their players.

fallenbythewayside
2 July 2003, 10:00 PM
We are forgetting one archetype, of course: the rule monkey. Similar to a munchkin, a rule monkey is the fat boy who never seems to make much of a fuss, sitting quietly alone in the corner while the rest of the group takes a break from gaming by playing a video game or something. The rule monkey reads ALL of the books hundreds of times until he could quote entire sourcebooks by memory. You never see a rule monkey coming until it's too late; the munchkin's cover their tracks. Then, inexplicably, the rule monkey breaks out some obscure passage and points out three or four loopholes in rapid succession. While a munchkin will whine and moan until he gets his way, a rule monkey will simply threaten to walk out on the group--and be dead serious about it....they can usually get away with it because players are always in short supply.

Beware the rule monkey.

And run, run in terror, hide your women and children and the number zero, from a MUCHKIN RULE MONKEY!! AHHHHH!!

Tossk
3 July 2003, 12:58 PM
Rule mokey, that appears to be in the same speceis as a Rule Lawyer, or am I mistaken?

fallenbythewayside
3 July 2003, 05:26 PM
Probably the same thing or close to it, but I think Rule Monkey sounds better. No rule monkey I have ever met could be a lawyer. :p

Sasche
3 July 2003, 05:38 PM
I don't know.

I respect most monkeys before any lawyers!

But they I think Rule Monkeys and Rule Lawyers are very similar.

Marusame
21 July 2003, 04:56 PM
I very much recommend the book:

The Munchkins Guide to Power Gaming, by Steve Jackson Games.

This book is friggin hilarious. I can't get over the Critical Hit Table for Sofa Cushions.

Remus Lightforce
22 July 2003, 11:47 AM
I don't know about all this. In my mind, a min/maxer is dangerously close to being a munchkin, if he isn't already.

See:

Rodian Soldier 1

Str 9
Dex 20
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 6
Cha 6

Now, this is my idea of a min/maxer. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it does get a bit annoying, and the players tend to get indignant when, by luck, other PCs do better than them in a combat.

Of course, this does give me, the GM, a chance to take advantage of the character's weakness. (He says you're too ugly to be in his weapons shop, and kicks you out! =p).

Dr_Worm
22 July 2003, 11:57 AM
Oh I agree that it is annoying as a GM. It gets really tiresome, but it is not technically power-gaming or Munchkin behavior.

stoic_75
24 July 2003, 08:10 PM
http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~smartin/jdr/munchkin_eng.htm

JediJester
25 July 2003, 07:19 PM
First, I'd like to say that I am a MinMax'er and proud of it. In my definition of Min/Max'er anyways. I think a MinMax'er is one who focuses on one or two aspects of their character at the expense of the others. Of course, I still believe that roleplaying is what makes or breaks a game. That is, after all, why these are called RolePlaying Games.

My view of Powergamers are those people who create their characters in a certain way to take advantage of the rules (whether for combat or other purposes). Most Powergamers happen to be MinMax'ers as well, but don't care much about roleplaying anymore. I don't like these gamers, but will tolerate them as long as they don't go munchkin on me.

Ah, yes, the Munchkins. These are the players who whine, cheat, lie, and badger until they're character could kill Superman by blinking an eye (without the use of Kryptonite) while talking a drowning man into buying a gallon of water as he/she reprograms the central bank's computers to give them a million, untraceable credits. Can't stand them, hate them, and I get rid of them as fast as I can or move on to another group if I'm not the GM.

And that's my two cents or credits or copper pieces.

Dea-Ev Dacal
26 July 2003, 11:32 PM
As I usually am a GM, I have to say Munchkinism falls much on the error of the GM. GMs can stop the whining with either a stern warning for the player to shape up, or ship out. And it is much the GMs fault for letting the Munchkin get that infinite ammo\range\accuracy one shot death ray, coupled with nearly invincible armor, and godlike abilities. It is hard for me to admit that I can let these munchkins, become Munchkins in the first place, but it happens, and we musn't sacrifice the whole groups fun, for one pain in the ass player.

I'm not in any way defending munchkins, I can't stand them, but I feel that it is part of the GMs duty to control and prevent munchkinism. By the way stoic_75, and sjard, hehehe :D .
E.D.

Wesly Senesca
27 July 2003, 10:59 AM
All this talk about Min/Maxing, Powergaming, and--shudder--Munchkins is fine and dandy, but what about a person's style of play?
The one thing that gets me angrier than anything else is a player who has no desire to roleplay their characters but will definitely rollplay their characters. Has this happened to you? Are there any players who roll more criticals than any three players combined yet not let you see their rolls? Are there any players that contiually get results higher than twenty on non-critical rolls? Are their character sheets filled to the brim with stat bonuses no lower than a +3 (except charisma because they have no use for it whatsoever)? When asked about character backgrounds/goals/whatever, do you get anything more than a 3-sentence answer? Are their weapons and equipment always the best--even if 1st level? Even if this player's character is a slicer or other non-combatant type, is he or she still ultra-violent?

If any of you out there met any gamers like this, but I have, and this person bothered the ever-living $#!+ out of me so great that I quit the group permanently. Maybe I'm the only one who has met someone described above, but this is my only true experience with someone who constantly plays characters that tick off more than half the group.

I just want to know, how you all discribe this person? Min/Maxer, Powergamer, Munchkin--what?

Dr_Worm
27 July 2003, 11:57 AM
Well that person is beyond Min/Maxing because all the abbilities are high. I would say that if this person was playing by the rules, they would be considered a powergamer. If they were bending the rules, or whining to the GM to bend the rules, for their beneifit they are a Munchkin. In my mind, though, cheating has no place in a game. I have heard that some GM's put up with it, but not me.

Powergamers are rarely good roleplayers. If they are they are ususally only good at one type of role, and no matter what the character, no matter what it's stats, he will always play this type of character. There are games where this style is okay, but rolepalyers and rollplayers rarely mix well.

Wesly Senesca
27 July 2003, 04:01 PM
rolepalyers and rollplayers rarely mix well... originally posted by Dr. Worm

You're right. This subject has been causing problems within my old group since that powergamer joined us. We've all butted heads at least two times in the past, and it has created an irrepairable schism between us. The problem was so great that myself and one other friend refuse to roleplay with the powergamer anymore.

If only things would have turned out differently. Oh well, as my friend says: C'est la vie.

JediJester
27 July 2003, 11:46 PM
I can see bending the occasional roll by GM or player to save a treasured PC or NPC, but to cheat on non-critical rolls... why bother? Pathetic is what I call it. Kinda makes you wonder, if they cheat that much in some imaginary game, what do they cheat on in real life? Hmmm :raised:

Vanger Chevane
28 July 2003, 10:16 AM
one of the GM tatics I've used when a Player runs his character by remote, epsecially when they refer to their char in third person is to simply stare at them through the top 1/4 of my glasses and deadpan...


Bob Dole doesn't think this is funny.

Most of em get the hint.


Agreed Jester. Sometimes the odd foulup can be entertaining, and provide a chance for some good roleplay and/or gets the PCs to come up with some weird solution that just might work, kinda like Booster-Logic. :D

My old group of player/GM's still chuckle and make cracks about the string of Critical Botches I had with one character while running down a stairwell...

Vash Knives
29 November 2003, 07:18 AM
Indeed. One time my RP group was boarding down an icy hill on Hoth and my charactor slipped, falling on his butt, drooping one of his swords, and when he picked it up, he accidentally sliced off the leg of a wampa-when he stopping sliding around his head was in the snow and his butt was in the air. when the rest of the group reached him they found a Stargate just ahead of him. Everybody was thinking-What the..?-A Stargate on Hoth?-they later found out I had rolled an exploding strangeness roll. You can call that munchkinism but everyone there was laughing afterwards.