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Nova Spice
1 July 2003, 04:30 PM
I just picked up the final book in the Force Heretic Trilogy today. About seventy pages in thus far.

I'll post thoughts and information when I finish the novel; however, I wanted everyone to know that the book is now available at bookstores. And as a glancing sidenote, I've observed that this particular book may well be the beginning of a bridge between the era of the Old Repbulic and the New Jedi Order. Things have picked up significantly in the final books of the series. ;)

Tash Horn
1 July 2003, 07:21 PM
damn...i need to get it...didn't know it was coming out so soon...need to get.....nuts no money....guess i have to wait...:(

Tramp
1 July 2003, 07:31 PM
I'll probably pick it up tomorrow, if not this weekend, I can't wait.:D

wolverine
2 July 2003, 03:14 AM
I have it. HHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! I shall devour it's knowledge tonight, in an unholy ritual filled with much beer.

Wedge in Red2
2 July 2003, 04:08 AM
In anticipation of this thread becoming full of spoiler information, I've chucked the word *spoilers* in the title. Okay, it's a little pre-emptive, but will hopefully solve the problem we had with the FHII: Refugee thread.

Cheers,

Jon

powalsh
2 July 2003, 07:04 AM
I just finished the book, and I am pleased to say that I enjoyed it on many levels. First and foremost I am glad to see the whole situation with Tahiri has finally been resolved. There were really two directions that they could have gone with it, and I am glad that they went with unity over death. Once she picks a name I believe she is going to be a terrible thorn in in Bothans hide. Secondly, I am happy that they have made Sekot such a talkative character. He is less OZ like than I thought he would be. With a power such as this it will be interesting to see the many factions of the SW galaxy atempt to sway sekot to their side. I think Zanoma would also make a great future home base for the Jedi, but thats just me. My final thought for this post is my joy in finally seeing The remnant and the New republic joined as one military machine in the form af the Galactic alliance. Now just add a dash of Chiss empire and I think youll have a taste that just cant be beat. Thats all for now.

Nova Spice
2 July 2003, 06:02 PM
First off, thanks to Jon for adding the SPOILER tag! Sheesh, I forgot! :D

On to the crunchy goodness:

After finishing the novel, I've come to some conclusions about where the final two books will be taking the story:

-As powalsh stated, Tahiri is no longer a slave to her alter-ego Riina. It seems that long ago in Edge of Victory I: Conquest, Mezhan Kwaad may have accidentally created the one thing that would bring the warrior caste down-a link between the Jedi and the Yuuzhan Vong. Tahiri is that link now. She's half-Jedi, half Vong. And she will probably prove to be one of the biggest advocates against using Alpha Red in the final two novels of the series.
-Droma's back! That Ryn finally returned to the series and I'm glad to see it! As appropriate as it was, I think we'll see Droma and his new Ryn Network, filling the gap that Chewbacca left so long ago in Vector Prime. If Chewie had not of died in Vector Prime, he surely would have played a part in the conclusion of the series. Since he did, I think Droma will step in the big Wook's shoes and meet whatever challenge the heroes face.
-Pellaeon made good on his promise. It's interesting to know that Pellaeon and Dorja (though not mentioned) had been hunting down the Vong fleet that wasted Bastion. And I was glad that the aging Supreme Commander of the Remnant returned in full glory. He promised Vorrik that he would pay, and in the end, the scarheads bit the dust.
-Zonama Sekot. Wow, what a strange world. The eerie visages of Anakin Skywalker and Vergere evoked a connection with the Old Republic and the New Jedi Order, that will probably snowball as the series spirals toward it's finale. I'm very curious how this Living Planet will play a role in the end result of the war. Something tells me it has to do with the Living Force vs. the Unifying Force (hence the last book's title).
-Nom Anor's fate? It seems Shimrra is hot on his trail? To me, I think we'll see Nom Anor do something incredible that will have huge ramifications for both sides. The heresy he's spreading is certainly impacting the Vong culture and hierarchy, but the death of Ngaaluh at the end of the novel tells me that we might have caught a glimpse of the ex-executor's fate.

Predictions for the last two novels:
-It's obvious to me, that the focal point has been established for the remaining two books. Jacen is the one who will win it, and Tahiri is the means he'll accomplish it by. How I don't know.
-The torch has finally been passed. Luke, Han, and Leia's adventures have begun to come to an end. Leia's comment to C-3PO was wistful at best. "I must be getting old." Leia said. "We are all, Mistress Leia." 3PO said mournfully.
-The Vong are gearing up for a military offensive on a scale not seen before. The destruction of Generis was but the tip of the iceberg. As Cal Omas stated at the end of the novel, both forces are consolidating their fleets. I have a feeling Shimrra has plans that will be disturbing at best and horrifying at worst.
-The Remnant is no more, just as the New Republic is no more. Both are now the Galactic Alliance. I think Pellaeon's and Todra Mayn's distrust of one another, and eventual partnership, was symbolic of the final barriers being broken down. The lines have been drawn, and it's the people of the galaxy vs. the Yuuzhan Vong.

All in all, the book started the snowball. Now, it's show time. The end game is in sight. ;)

wolverine
2 July 2003, 10:32 PM
I have a thought on that unifying force aspect... Now there are 2 jedi who can sense/affect the vong. Jacen and Tahiri.

I thin with jacen's link to Zonma sekot, he will 'enable it' to see them as well. As to the unifying, would it not be strange if this ment the unity of the jedi heresy (the potentium) and the jedi order??!?!

BrianDavion
3 July 2003, 10:00 PM
I thought this was the LAST NJO book, how many are left and what are left?

Wedge in Red2
4 July 2003, 03:19 AM
Brian,

I'm not exactly sure, I know that someone like Nova will be able to tell you. I do know that the last book is due to be called "Unifying Force", not to be confused with the SWRPGNetwork produced campaign of the same name. I think there are a couple of books left.

Sorry I couldn't be much help,

Jon

wolverine
4 July 2003, 07:37 AM
There are 2 more. The last paperback, is called the Final Prophesy, which is then followed by the climatic hardback, unifing force.

Kal_Myadon
4 July 2003, 10:33 AM
does anyone know when this will be out in England?

bhannah_3
7 July 2003, 12:30 AM
It's been out in the UK for a few days. I picked up my copy from Waterstone's last Thursday.

Tramp
7 July 2003, 09:25 AM
With what Jag finally admitted to himself regarding Jaina, I wouldn't be surprised to see a proposal, if not an actual wedding, by the end of the series.

Nova Spice
7 July 2003, 11:01 AM
With what Jag finally admitted to himself regarding Jaina, I wouldn't be surprised to see a proposal, if not an actual wedding, by the end of the series.

I have my doubts, mainly due to what Luke said to Jaina in Destiny's Way: "I name you the Sword of the Jedi. You are like tempered steel, purposeful and razor-keen. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends. Yours is a restless life, and never shall you know peace, though you shall be blessed for the peace that you bring to others. Take comfort in the fact that, though you stand tall and alone, others take shelter in the shadow that you cast."
-Destiny's Way

I wonder if this eerie prophecy foreshadows Jag's demise? Could it be possible? In Reunion, it seems plausible that the two may wind up together; but for how long? And what if he doesn't survive the final battle?

Tramp
7 July 2003, 11:35 AM
I don't think that's what it means. I'm pretty sure it simply means that she will always be in the thick of things, always in the middle of the action. She's going to be a fighter, guardian, and front lines leader. It doesn't mean that she'll never know lasting love. Even with Jag by her side, their pairing is not through the Force , since he's not Force Sensitive, and thus, as a Jedi, she's still standing as a lone beacon in the Force. And, you might be right, he may die, though I'm doubtful he will. However, like I said, even if they don't end up married by the end of the saga, I'll bet we'll at least see a Proposal from Jag.

Kanner Ra'an
8 July 2003, 08:23 AM
Overall i didn't really like the book. I felt that the stuff with the Solos was just their to keep them in the story. They havn't really done anything important aside form helping Tahri chase her sanity around. I still dont like the direction their sending Jacens character. In tratior they seem to make him all powerful, yet in these novels he has turned into a near pacifist. I do still think he'll be the Vongs undoing somehow, but for now hes a Philopher instead of a defender. Tahri, i still havn't noticed her sensing the vong, and also i dont think shes going to play a major part in the finale. Some part maybe, but not a major one. Nom Anor i'm still wondering about. He doesn't seem to have a master plan like most of his kind. Instead he seems to just want straight out revolution. Not very sinister. Hopefully the writers will give him something more threatening then shamed ones and a few spies. Last thing to say is this Zonamma Sekot has really got my attention. A planet that can shatter fleets using the force. I thought they were done with superweapons. Really i think it will be cool to see what they do with this.

All in all it was a good read.

R2-C9
11 July 2003, 12:00 AM
Jason was kind of a pacifist long befor he was captured by the vong.
I personally like the way he is going. He has great power but he is reluctant to use it.

Cakhmaim
15 July 2003, 05:53 AM
This book was a ok read, but it left too many questions.
Like how is it that Jaina can now sense the Vong or its technology. When she she used the force to close the mouth of plasma fromthe scout ship so it blew itself up. I was under the impression that this could not be done. If it could then that changes the whole aspect of this war. Why have the Jedi even been fighting when all they have to do is jam the weapon with the force. I know Tahiri did it too, but it could easily be proven that she should have Vong sense now.
Also I didn't like how the Vong were already at Zenoma Sekot. I understand that they were looking for it and have been for 50 years, but galaxies are big. It took a bunch of Jedi using a force meld and a lot of concentration and they barely found it. yet when they get there the Vong had already happened to stumble a way through the hyperspace maze.
It was enjoyable but I thought it brought up questions that would change the whole look of the Vong.

Tramp
15 July 2003, 06:36 AM
The Yuuzhan Vong first found Zenoma Sekot back in the book Rogue Planet, but the planet was saved when Vergere made a deal with them. This was the primary reason that the planet disappeared in the first place, as well as Tarkin attacking. It took them another 50 years to find the planet again.

Kanner Ra'an
15 July 2003, 07:01 AM
Like how is it that Jaina can now sense the Vong or its technology. When she she used the force to close the mouth of plasma fromthe scout ship so it blew itself up. I was under the impression that this could not be done. If it could then that changes the whole aspect of this war. Why have the Jedi even been fighting when all they have to do is jam the weapon with the force. I know Tahiri did it too, but it could easily be proven that she should have Vong sense now.

My immpression was niether Tahri or Jaina can sense the vong. The part where they jammed the cannons only involved puting pressure on a certain area that they chose by sight, nothing about sensing the ship.

Wedge in Red2
16 July 2003, 04:54 AM
Kanner, I don't think your argument makes a lot of sense. If you don't need ot sense someone with the force but can just "target the area they can see", then you could still pull weapons out of the Vongs hands by "targeting the area they can see", or Force Push the Vong away by "targeting the area they can see". As far as I was aware from the early books in the NJO, this wasn't possible. While I haven't read Reunion yet, it does seem like a change in tact.

Anyone else want to comment on this (Nova Spice, I'm looking in your direction)?

Jon

Cakhmaim
16 July 2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Tramp
The Yuuzhan Vong first found Zenoma Sekot back in the book Rogue Planet, but the planet was saved when Vergere made a deal with them. This was the primary reason that the planet disappeared in the first place, as well as Tarkin attacking. It took them another 50 years to find the planet again.

I think you medan it ONLY took 50 years.;) To find a single planet in the galaxy is like trying to find a certain needle in a pile of needles. Near to impossible. Even the Jedi realized how difficult there mission was. They knew they could search for lifetimes and still never know if they were even on the right track. Yet here is a planet that hid itself in a picket in the galaxy so no one can find it, and yet two groups find it at the same time. There is always the argument that the Vong exist on the opposite of the spectrum of the Force and it was the Force that lead the Vong to Zenoma. Unconsiencously the Vong followed the lead of the Force and found it.

Kanner If this were true it would have to go back to the arguement about -10 rule on the Vong, and that forum has already run its stay. Even if it were possible to use the force by seeing the Vong, it would totally change the aspect of every other book. The Jedi could have slowed down the Vong a long time ago. Maybe what we are going to see is that since th Vong do exisit on some spectrum of the force that now the Jedi are starting to adapt. That those who have fought them from the begining(Jaina) are starting to recognize them in the Force.

Nova Spice
16 July 2003, 11:22 AM
Anyone else want to comment on this (Nova Spice, I'm looking in your direction)?

Alright, Jon, I'll give you my theory. :D

Like my other fellow Holonetters, the first thing that came to my mind when I read this was: "Jaina just used the Force on a Vong creature."
And somehow, at that very second, I knew this would be a topic of discussion on the Holonet. So here is my explanation:

-It's a possibility that when Jaina entered Tahiri's mind to help her battle Riina, she made a connection with her and attained a sort of vongsense as well. While not proven in the novel, the case for this is certainly plausible. This is what I personally believe. Jaina became a part of Tahiri while she battled to overcome Riina; And I think that when Jaina "stumbled" upon Tahiri and Riina battling, and when she witnessed them becoming one, she became attuned to the melding.

That's my take on the situation. ;)

wolverine
16 July 2003, 12:32 PM
I thought both Jacen and Anakin tried to see if Tahri had vong sense but came up blank??? Anakin when he had the lambent, and Jacen due to his link to the world brain??

Nova Spice
16 July 2003, 01:07 PM
Tahiri gained Vongsense in Force Heretic III: Reunion. That was quite obvious to me. When she became one with Riina Kwaad, she became part Jedi and part Yuuzhan Vong. She's the link. ;)

Cakhmaim
16 July 2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Tahiri gained Vongsense in Force Heretic III: Reunion. That was quite obvious to me. When she became one with Riina Kwaad, she became part Jedi and part Yuuzhan Vong. She's the link. ;)


Nova , wouldnt this go against your other theory? :? The one on the other theard? That no one could have Vong sense without having had an implant. Unless of course they have a lambent. Maybe I understood you wrong before. Personally I think it was too big a thing to leave unanswered, but hopefully they will answer it later.

Nova Spice
16 July 2003, 09:51 PM
Nope, not at all Cakhmaim. Tahiri was implanted with another personality; a Yuuzhan Vong personality. That's the most powerful piece of evidence that my theory is correct.

That's why I believe that when Jaina melded with Tahiri during her struggle with Riina, she became attuned to the Yuuzhan Vong as well. Jaina was implanted in a different manner. She chose to be implanted into Tahiri's Vong psyche.

So, IMO, my theory still holds water. :D

Cakhmaim
17 July 2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Nope, not at all Cakhmaim. Tahiri was implanted with another personality; a Yuuzhan Vong personality. That's the most powerful piece of evidence that my theory is correct.

That's why I believe that when Jaina melded with Tahiri during her struggle with Riina, she became attuned to the Yuuzhan Vong as well. Jaina was implanted in a different manner. She chose to be implanted into Tahiri's Vong psyche.

So, IMO, my theory still holds water. :D

I know Tahiri was implanted because I showed you that in the other theard. I have no doubt that Tahiri has Vong sense. What I was saying was about Jaina. I do not agree with what you said though about her. She did choose to be in Tahiri mind, but that is no reason for her to have Vong sense now. What about Luke He chose to implant himself into that skip, through the cognitive helmet. And Jaina had chose to pilot the Vong ship in the past. So being in a Vong pysche would not give her Vong sense to me. Otherwise why would she have not had it before, or Luke have it. Besides once she was out of Tahiri's mind she would no longer be implanted in the pysche.
I geuss I will just have to wait and see what the next novel shows.

Wedge in Red2
17 July 2003, 04:15 AM
Bearing in mind that I'm not up to this point in the series yet:

I think there's probably a distinction to be made between linking your mind with a Vong ship and linking your mind with the Vong themselves. The Vong ships, while living entities, are completely different from the Vong IMO.

Jon

Kanner Ra'an
17 July 2003, 04:33 AM
I think there's probably a distinction to be made between linking your mind with a Vong ship and linking your mind with the Vong themselves. The Vong ships, while living entities, are completely different from the Vong IMO.

Yes but when you remember that Jacen developed Vongsense due to telapathic contact with Vong creatures it does kinda become relavent.

Cakhmaim
17 July 2003, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by Wedge in Red2
Bearing in mind that I'm not up to this point in the series yet:

I think there's probably a distinction to be made between linking your mind with a Vong ship and linking your mind with the Vong themselves. The Vong ships, while living entities, are completely different from the Vong IMO.

Jon

I agree that there would be a difference but Tahiri is not Vong. Even the half of her that is connected to the Vong is not Vong. They tried to make her into Vong and were not finished when Anakin rescued her. She was only partly Vong. They were not able to put the other implants in they wanted, and she was still fighting it. Looking at it this way I think you can compare the two.

ElfWord
4 August 2003, 08:13 AM
Personally, I have high hopes that between Zonoma Sekot, Jacen, and Tahiri, we will see the return of Anakin Solo. Somehow, someway. It seems Callista sadly did not make an appearance in this novel. With only two books left, it seems rather pointless to bring her into the series. I think it's a huge loss that none of the authors thought to include her, she would have made a great addition and put a wonderful twist on things.

Anyone remember the Force well-spring on Coruscant? The Vong can't really do anything with it, and probably don't even realize it's there. But Coruscant is pretty central as a symbol to the galaxy... and it has a huge Force well-spring... and now the GA has an ally that's a living planet... that has hyperdrives... that can use the Force...

Anyone else see a connection here? Possibilities, hello!?

Remus Lightforce
23 August 2003, 03:54 PM
Just finished Reunion.

I don't buy it, <b>Nova</b>. I accepted earlier on in the series that some things just don't make perfect sense, and it's because of a mistake on the part of the authors and proofreaders, usually. Your explanation is weak at best, since nowhere there was Riina's influence on Jaina during that part mentioned once. In fact, I don't think they were even close to eachother. Wasn't it just Jaina and Droma? I could accept Tahiri doing that, and the first thing that sprung to my mind when she did was 'vongsense'. But when Jaina did it I was waiting for an explanation, and never got one.

---------

On another topic, Jagged Fel is a goner. I like his character a lot, a whole lot, but I'm 75% sure on this. He's not Force-sensitive, and doesn't have Solo luck like Han. The whole part about Jaina being the 'Sword of the Jedi' doesn't help his chances, either.

--------

Here's how I think <I>The Unifying Force</I> will end:
I think Zonama Sekot is going to have an opportunity to utterly destroy the Yuuzhan Vong, but only by turning to the dark side. Jacen convinces it not to use dark powers, and it finally decides to stay true to the light. Nom Anor finally dies, but finds some way to take Shimrra down with him. Without their leader, the Vong are routed by the Jedi and the Galactic Alliance. To solve the problem of genocide, the former Shamed Ones step forward and volunteer to continue on the Yuuzhan Vong species in an isolated pocket of the galaxy. Balance is restored to the Force.

Nova Spice
23 August 2003, 06:35 PM
I don't buy it, Nova. I accepted earlier on in the series that some things just don't make perfect sense, and it's because of a mistake on the part of the authors and proofreaders, usually. Your explanation is weak at best, since nowhere there was Riina's influence on Jaina during that part mentioned once. In fact, I don't think they were even close to eachother. Wasn't it just Jaina and Droma? I could accept Tahiri doing that, and the first thing that sprung to my mind when she did was 'vongsense'. But when Jaina did it I was waiting for an explanation, and never got one.

I don't buy it either. And fortunately I don't have to. If you remember in Dark Tide I: Onslaught, at the Battle of Dantooine, Luke did the same thing against a rakamat. He used the Force to cause the dovin basal to turn in on itself, effectively sucking the rakamat up. What Jaina and Tahiri did was similar, but on a much more simplistic level.

I too, mistakenly thought an explanation should have been made for why Jaina was capable of doing that. After re-reading some excerpts from Dark Tide I: Onslaught, I realized that an explanation wasn't needed. In fact, it's definitely possible for a Jedi to manipulate the Force against a Vong creature (though it does require more effort, since the creature's presence in the Force is weakened because of their constant subjectivity with the Vong themselves).

In essence, the writers did not make a "boo-boo." We, and in particular, myself, made an error in thinking an explanation was needed. It wasn't and isn't. ;)

Rogue Janson
24 August 2003, 04:21 AM
don't buy it either. And fortunately I don't have to. If you remember in Dark Tide I: Onslaught, at the Battle of Dantooine, Luke did the same thing against a rakamat. He used the Force to cause the dovin basal to turn in on itself, effectively sucking the rakamat up. What Jaina and Tahiri did was similar, but on a much more simplistic level.

I'm still not convinced. I wouldn't say Luke "cause[d] the dowvin basal to turn in on itself", since that implies he was acting on the dovin basal. What he did was to move the void generated by the dovin basal - "Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created."

Maybe you know some references (which I'd be interested to see), but the chazrach are the only YV creatures I can remember anyone being able to sense with the Force. (Oh, that's excepting Yammosks, which have their own TP and are a dubious and intriguing case.) For example, when Anakin is being chased by Tsik Vai flyers on Yavin, he is completely unable to sense the vessels. If it was only the YV themselves who oculdn't be sensed in the Force, the Jedi wouldn't have nearly as much trouble.

Cakhmaim
25 August 2003, 04:44 PM
So the Question now, Nova, is have you changed your mind on how the force can be used on the vong? According to what you said above it sounds like it. Espicall when you add all your cooments on the UAA theard. FOr instance.

Well, after seeing JD's and Chris' reply and answer, I've decided that I'm just flat out disappointed. I understand where they're coming from and I know just as well as the next joe, that Traitor explained much in the way of the Vong's mysterious Force absence. My qualm is that the only person who has discovered this mystery and has been able to apply it, is Jacen Solo. For any other Jedi character, their Force powers would still be considered immune (save for Control) against the Yuuzhan Vong, until Jacen Solo teaches what he has learned.
In that theard you wouldn't accept the force being used on the Vong no matter what means. Now you are saying that is just more difficult? So does this mean you now agree with the -10 rule?

Nova Spice
25 August 2003, 07:28 PM
So the Question now, Nova, is have you changed your mind on how the force can be used on the vong? According to what you said above it sounds like it. Espicall when you add all your cooments on the UAA theard.

No, I haven't Cakhmaim. The -10 rule is still a crock, and will always be a crock as far as I'm concerned.

And, just out of curiosity, how much time did it take you to dig out one of my old posts? I realize you're trying to catch me contradicting myself, but it didn't work. And here's why:

The Vong are immune to the Force. Period. Their creatures are a different story it seems. Several passages in the novels (particularly Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Edge of Victory I: Conquest, and Force Heretic III: Reunion) provide perfect examples of my reasoning. Apparently Vong creatures can be manipulated in the Force, but it is very difficult. That stems from something Jacen said early on, in that it seems the Vong's creature are hard to sense because the Yuuzhan Vong's shaping has caused the creature's aura in the Force to diminish.

However, Vong creatures apparently are NOT totally immune to the Force. They are simply very hard to manipulate. There's been three specific instances of Jedi taking on Vong creatures with the Force (Luke, Jacen, and Jaina/Tahiri).

The Yuuzhan Vong themselves ARE completely immune to Force, Sense, and Alter. The creatures on the other hand, are just severely dampened down in the Force.

Yuuzhan Vong = Insivible in the Force
Vong biotechnology = Severely dampened in the Force
UAA rule = load of garbage ;)

Tramp
25 August 2003, 07:35 PM
Not necessarily Nova. Remember, Jaina cuts a Yuuzhan Vong to ribbons with Force Lightning in Star by Star This is direct usage of the Force against a Yuuzhan Vong warrior, not indirect, hence the -10 penalty rule. It was put in there because of events in the books themselves because the Jedi are overcoming the "apparent" Force immunity of the Yuuzhan Vong. They still can't sense them or affect their minds, but they can physically effect them, however with great difficulty.

Remus Lightforce
25 August 2003, 11:40 PM
Blarg. Stupid Yuuzhan Vong incosistensies...

Remember, Kyp did the same thing Luke did.

It seems like force abilities that don't directly affect (or start from) the Yuuzhan Vong work....Jaina's force lightning started at her fingertips, and it hurt him. Move object can throw things at the YV. Force choke probably wouldn't work because it affects something INSIDE the YV. Remember the Dark Jedi that used that slice&dice dark side ability.

Wedge in Red2
26 August 2003, 12:30 AM
Nova, Cakhmaim, lets keep it civil :).

Nova, calling a rule a crock is fine, as long as you're not calling the person who created is nasty names. I haven't read (or can't remember) where this rule was discussed, but I'm assuming you gave some arguments to back up your view that it is a crock in that thread.

Cakhmaim, your view is equally valid, but it does look like you're acting to personally persecute Nova. We're here to discuss different viewpoints, not to go out of our way to prove someones point wrong. And people are entitled to their own opinions.

In summary, play nice :).

Jon

Kanner Ra'an
26 August 2003, 04:58 AM
Not necessarily Nova. Remember, Jaina cuts a Yuuzhan Vong to ribbons with Force Lightning in Star by Star

I think someone dismissed this one already. Force lightning is using the force to gather electricity together and fling it at an individual, not much actual use of the force on the Yuuzhan Vong.

Rogue Janson
26 August 2003, 05:07 AM
Yuuzhan Vong Force immunity has been argued over extensively. I suggest if anyone wants to carry on the argument, they start a thread in Rants & Raves (since people could easily get touchy) and direct people over there. YV creatures though, is something I've not thought about before so I'm going to carry on here...


The Vong are immune to the Force. Period. Their creatures are a different story it seems. Several passages in the novels (particularly Dark Tide I: Onslaught, Edge of Victory I: Conquest, and Force Heretic III: Reunion) provide perfect examples of my reasoning. Apparently Vong creatures can be manipulated in the Force, but it is very difficult. That stems from something Jacen said early on, in that it seems the Vong's creature are hard to sense because the Yuuzhan Vong's shaping has caused the creature's aura in the Force to diminish.

However, Vong creatures apparently are NOT totally immune to the Force. They are simply very hard to manipulate. There's been three specific instances of Jedi taking on Vong creatures with the Force (Luke, Jacen, and Jaina/Tahiri).
I can't decide on this. We know chazrach are in the Force virtually normally, but I can't think of any examples of Jedi sensing any other YV creatures. And considering some of them are battleship sized, I would have thought they'd notice, even if it was difficult.

I'm not sure about the passages you mention Nova. The one from Onslaught I believe can be taken either way; Conquest I don't know which bit you mean; Force Heretic I'm aware of and though was an inconsistency. I've also just been reading SxS, where the Force is used to move both volcano cannon shots and grutchins.
A quick quote, for what it's worth - Conquest, p.133, a Tsik Vai flyer is described as "something that did not exist in the Force at all."

The volcano cannon shots bring up another question. They're not living creatures but simply molten balls of rock (in a similar fashion to dovin basal voids). If the Force has been excised from living YV creatures, does it return when they die? I'd guess it must, though it's never mentioned because, for example if they decayed into the soil, you'd end up with some soil that can be sensed in the Force and some that can't. Which is a stupid idea obviously.

Wedge in Red2
26 August 2003, 06:34 AM
Hmmm. It is a tough one. In the movies, we see Luke levitate both R2-D2 (a droid, and not "alive") as well as stones. Are we to understand that inanimate objects posess more of the Force than the YV? Seems bizarre to me. But then, one of my beefs with the YV was always their "not appearing in the force".

Something that I've theorised on (although not extensively) is that the Alter based powers would still work fine on the YV, but the issue is with sensing them. In the D6 system, some powers required both Sense and Alter rolls. In this case, the YV would be difficult to affect sue to their inability to be sensed. Purely Alter based powers would be fine. But that's just a theory.

My rambling 2cr worth...

Jon

Rogue Janson
26 August 2003, 09:44 AM
Hmmm. It is a tough one. In the movies, we see Luke levitate both R2-D2 (a droid, and not "alive") as well as stones. Are we to understand that inanimate objects posess more of the Force than the YV?
That's exactly right. In one of the books, a character remarks the Yuuzhan Vong have less presence in the Force than a rock. Hence I believe something actively excises it from them, blocks or shifts it, at least while they're alive.

Nova Spice
26 August 2003, 05:47 PM
In summary, play nice

Always, Jon, I was just a bit befuddled at seeing one of my posts that is months old brought out from a long-gone thread. :D


Not necessarily Nova. Remember, Jaina cuts a Yuuzhan Vong to ribbons with Force Lightning in Star by Star This is direct usage of the Force against a Yuuzhan Vong warrior, not indirect, hence the -10 penalty rule. It

Force Lightning was deemed an exception by those who argued against the rule. As Kanner stated, it is an indirect usage against a Yuuzhan Vong. In other words: "Use the Force to make dark, electrical energy. See a Vong with your eyes. Point and click as necessary." :D

The -10 rule is a scapegoat in my opinion. At the time the UAA was released, only Jacen had vongsense. Now, we know that Tahiri possesses it as well. The fact that two heroic NPC characters are the only two that can use this ability and that this is a major plot point for the NPC heroes, the creation of a new rule that allows the PC heroes to be able to use Force powers directly on the Vong, is absurd.

That was discussed in another thread, so enough with that I suppose. ;)

Force powers can be used on the Vong in indirect manners. Move Object is a fine example of that. As is Force Lightning. Jaina wasn't sensing the Vong (she can't), but she didn't have to. All she had to do was see him with her eyes and let her rage fly forth from her fingertips.


I'm not sure about the passages you mention Nova. The one from Onslaught I believe can be taken either way; Conquest I don't know which bit you mean; Force Heretic I'm aware of and though was an inconsistency. I've also just been reading SxS, where the Force is used to move both volcano cannon shots and grutchins.

I wouldn't totally dismiss Luke's "void reversal" at the Battle of Dantooine. In context, I think a case an be made that he used the Force on a Vong creature. Granted, the effort cost him so much that he fell unconscious, but he still accomplished his goal.

The passage I'm referring to in Conquest, is the one on the Vong "netting beetles." I'll see if I can source that down for you, Janson. ;)

And I remember the passage in Star by Star concerning the grutchins and the volcano cannons. Another example of the Force being used on Vong creatures to sense them.


That's exactly right. In one of the books, a character remarks the Yuuzhan Vong have less presence in the Force than a rock. Hence I believe something actively excises it from them, blocks or shifts it, at least while they're alive.

I totally agree. Something is blocking their presence in the Force.

Tramp
26 August 2003, 06:06 PM
According to the rules, you still can't sense a Yuuzhan Vong, the powers getting the -10 penalty are all ones involved in physically affecting them, not mentally or trying to sense them. And there have been a number of occasions in the books, Force Lightening is a physical manifistation of the Force, not just electricity.

Remus Lightforce
26 August 2003, 10:10 PM
Meh. Let's just drop the argument for now, maybe we'll get our answers in the next two books.

On a different note, does anyone else think that Shimmra is the 'vongsense' side of the force sensitive? He seems to be, from his seemingly telepathic abilities.

Rogue Janson
27 August 2003, 04:04 AM
originally posted by Nova Spice
The passage I'm referring to in Conquest, is the one on the Vong "netting beetles." I'll see if I can source that down for you, Janson.
At a quick look, I can't find it. (The bit with netting beetles starts around p.172, fyi.)

(stuff about Shimmra's powers has been moved to this (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=157043#post157043) thread to avoid cross-posting.)

scourgicus
28 August 2003, 11:44 AM
I was under the impression that the YV existed not outside the Force, but within it in a way the Jedi were not accustomed to see. Such as the Aing Tii monks teleportation or some of the White Current's abilities? Different facets of the gem...

Tramp
28 August 2003, 11:51 AM
You're correct. This is what has slowly been revieled throughout the NJO books. It's stated quite clearly that nothing can live without being a part of the Force, the Yuuzhan Vong included. The trick has been to find their place within the Force. Anakin's Jacen's and Tahiri's "Vongsense" is just the start.

Kanner Ra'an
28 August 2003, 11:51 AM
Its true. However only Jacen Solo can sense or manipulate that side so far. All other jedi cant. The vong frequency of the force is also much differant. Other groups do use the force, but it is the same type as other FUers can manipulate.

Darthspectre84
28 August 2003, 11:52 AM
And you cant forget the fact that Shimrra altered the minds of all those present to kill the Shaper. That is as clsoe to a mind trick as i can imagine :) though i still imagine its a bioengineered creature long thought lost.

Cakhmaim
28 August 2003, 03:24 PM
Before I say anything else let me apologize. I am sorry if it seemed like I was attacking Nova. I wasn't I was trying to see the difference between the two thoughts. Personally I think it was too big an issue to leave unanswered in this book and here is why. If you Vong technology could be so easily manipulated by the Jedi(I know she really had to concentrate) why hadnt they done it before. Or why hadnt it worked before. There are countless times people try to use the force on the thecno but it doesn't work yet it does here. Why? I s all I wanted to know. On these forums Nova is often looked to as the guy with the answers. So when I did not get this I put a theard on here. I look at the theards alot and have a good memory so when I heard him say something that sounded wrong I went and checked(by the way it took me about 30 sec to find). Nova and I have different opinions about the -10 rule. I would apply the rule to not only vong but there Technology. So I figured since he doesn't apply it to the vong that their technology would be immune too. I am sorry for the misunderstanding some may have had. He doesn't agree with the rule and I do not agree with the way the book was. I didn't think bringing up old comments were such a bad thing, considering inorder to support any of our comments we ALL go to old books and raise questions. So when I had a question on what HE said I brought it up.

I geuss by now I should be use to the way the books raise questions and leave them unanswered it has happened a few other times. I just thought in this book they were too big of issues to not answer.

SO IF ANY THOUGHT I WAS ATTACKING NOVA HERE IS MY OFFICIAL APOLOGY.

Wedge in Red2
29 August 2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Cakhmaim

SO IF ANY THOUGHT I WAS ATTACKING NOVA HERE IS MY OFFICIAL APOLOGY.

Just for the record, I didn't think you were attacking Nova. Otherwise, you would have got a PM from me giving you a formal warning :). I was just indicating that it seemed to be getting borderline, and that both of you might want to make sure you're not crossing that line.

Cheers,

Jon