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bhannah_3
7 July 2003, 01:41 AM
Does anyone have even a rough estimate of the total casualities to date (i.e. to the end of Reunion) in the war against the Vong?

Nova Spice
7 July 2003, 07:56 PM
Wow, this is a tough question. Taking into account the territory conquered and the extent of the brutality of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think we're looking at a gut-wrenching number.

My guess, up to Reunion, would be about 10,000,000,000. That's ten trillion deaths. I don't think that number is far-fetched at all considering Coruscant, by the time of Star by Star, had a population of over one trillion all by itself.

This war has been far more costly than the Galactic Civil War ever thought about being. :(

fallenbythewayside
7 July 2003, 08:50 PM
I was going to guess around the same number, but slighty lower, around 7 T or so. Nova's right about Coruscant. Wonder when the Vong'll be defeated.

wolverine
8 July 2003, 03:03 AM
Are you just looking at the death's of the NR / Galatic alliance, or everyone combined (including the vong)??

I would actually place it around 14,000,000,000 if just the 'good guys', and 35-40,000,000,000 if including the vong and their slave cannon fodder..

bhannah_3
8 July 2003, 03:55 AM
Thanks for that, it should be useful. I should explain that I'm currently running a rebellion era campaign and the players are about to discover a prophacy which tells what (some of) the consequences of the Alliance winning will be. They aren't familiar with the published EU and all for their Star Wars knowledge has come from the movies or from what they've picked up during the game so they don't have clue as to what is going to happen in the future. When I drop the knowledge of the extent of the mega-deaths yet to come on them it'll be interesting to see what their reaction will be.

Nova Spice
8 July 2003, 07:54 PM
I would actually place it around 14,000,000,000 if just the 'good guys', and 35-40,000,000,000 if including the vong and their slave cannon fodder..

The Vong number is way too high IMO. There's no way a single species has dozens of trillions in their population. In Destiny's Way, Ackbar estimated that a third of the Vong warriors had been killed. And I seriously doubt at that point, the New Republic had killed around eight to ten trillion Vong.

Though you may be right as far as the fourteen trillion number for the galactic population. However, if I were to speculate Vong casualties up to Force Heretic III: Reunion, I'd say casualties close to maybe one billion. That includes all castes.

Darthspectre84
9 July 2003, 04:26 AM
But you must remember also that the Vong population is that of an entire galaxy of their kind. And there have been no reference to other sentient species so that mgith mean that they have either been wiped out or genetically altered to serve. This would mean that the Vong are the only sentient inhabitants of their galaxy. And thats alot of people.


And this also has to take into account that Vong want to die :P well mostly..

wolverine
9 July 2003, 07:32 AM
As well as all those slave (endetured) species they brought with them to use as cannon fodder before they started on the SW galaxies mortals, for slave fodder.

Nova Spice
11 July 2003, 08:31 PM
Even taking those into account, that still leaves trillions upon trillions of total Vong. There's been no proof that even a trillion exist. Look at the Battle of Coruscant. Tsavong Lah lamented the loss of twenty-five thousand warriors thanks to Fey'lya's bomb. If the Vong had trillions at their disposal, this would be a drop in the bucket and would hardly concern the Warmaster.

IMO, the Yuuzhan Vong population stands at no more than fifteen billion (this includes all castes). ;)

Cakhmaim
11 July 2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Even taking those into account, that still leaves trillions upon trillions of total Vong. There's been no proof that even a trillion exist. Look at the Battle of Coruscant. Tsavong Lah lamented the loss of twenty-five thousand warriors thanks to Fey'lya's bomb. If the Vong had trillions at their disposal, this would be a drop in the bucket and would hardly concern the Warmaster.

IMO, the Yuuzhan Vong population stands at no more than fifteen billion (this includes all castes). ;)

The Vong maybe ruthless and willing to sacriface their lives in behalf of their cause, but they don't condon wasteful deaths. Espically from the warrior caste. At the time of battle of Coruscant they had already lost many warriors, and the couldn't afford to throw away thousands of warriors to stupid mistakes. Tsavong Lah could never be the leader he is if he were not concerned with a lose of such. 25,000 compared to 10,000,000,000,000 is nothing but look at it this way. (I think I should say that the number for Vong is a little high to me). 6,000, 000,000,000 Vong deaths to 12,000,000,000,000 NR deaths. 25,000 vong warrior deaths to 7,000 NR forces.

I think the count of 15-20 is more accurate. When you add in how many of the Vong Worldships that have failed and killed billions it really adds up fast.

Darthspectre84
12 July 2003, 01:58 AM
ah did not think of the worldships good thinking Cakhmaim :)

Of all the castes the warriors have suffered the most....also you must remember that Vong send their stupid warriors to die first so the better ones are seen.

This is how i see numbers in vong (excluding the Shamed ones and slaves):
Warriors
Intendent
Priest
Shapers
Shapers have the lowest cause they are not allowed to have children. I still wonder how they enter such a caste.

Admiral Noshow
23 July 2003, 02:16 PM
Ha I had a funny though, What if the New Republic created the Draft at the beginning of this war, thatís a lot of Soldiers (would they have the recourses?)8o

Wedge in Red2
24 July 2003, 04:33 AM
Huh? I don't get what you're saying. Sure, if the NR had instituted a compulsory draft at the beginning of the war there would have been a lot more untrained/lightly trained soldiers. As we have seen in real life war, that doesn't make for a low mortality rate, because green soldiers have a tendancy to die a lot quicker due to lack of experience. I'm reminded of Tommy Lee Jones's line from Rule of Engagement:



Colonel Hayes Hodges: Tell you what. If you can tell me the average life expectancy of a Marine second lieutenant dropped into a hot LZ in Vietnam in 1967, I'll tell you everything I remember about Kao Lo.

Major Mark Biggs: One week.

Colonel Hayes Hodges: Wrong. Sixteen seconds. Sixteen ◊◊◊◊ing seconds. And that's all I remember about Kao Lo.


As it is, voluntary enlistments would have gone up significantly anyway, and it all depends on how high the NR would have set the required enlistment numbers. It might have made a bit of a difference. However, given the NR is a proponent of freedom of choice, it seems unlikely they would have done something like that.

Jon

Cakhmaim
24 July 2003, 06:38 AM
I do not think it would have made a big difference in the number that died. The Vong killed everyone they came across wrthere they were soldier or not, so enlisting more people wouldn't stop them from killing the billions of innocents they come across.

Admiral Noshow
24 July 2003, 11:14 AM
Yes the Vong slaughtered Men, Woman, and children BUT I would prefer to be fighting them ina squad of soldiers(even if they are green) with uptodate weapons then be the man with a blaster pistol sitting at home and waiten for the Vong to burst in and kill his family. In this way I wouldnt say the NR casulitys would be fewer but I think the Vong casultys would become higher even if it made a slight difference

Nova Spice
24 July 2003, 12:40 PM
Yes the Vong slaughtered Men, Woman, and children BUT I would prefer to be fighting them ina squad of soldiers(even if they are green) with uptodate weapons then be the man with a blaster pistol sitting at home and waiten for the Vong to burst in and kill his family. In this way I wouldnt say the NR casulitys would be fewer but I think the Vong casultys would become higher even if it made a slight difference

Well their slaughter isn't over yet. ;) I can see wanting to be in a squad at first glance, but after thinking about it, if I were a citizen of the now-dead New Republic, I wouldn't have wanted to be drafted.

Think about it. Squads are given orders. And more than likely, NR commanders ordered squads and platoons and units on countless suicide missions during the invasion. A commander would say: "Hold the line until blah blah blah." Next thing you know, there's two dozen dead soldiers overrun by hundreds of Chazrach and Vong warriors. At least being on your own, you follow only the orders you give to yourself.

And there's more than enough evidence in the series to suggest that the New Republic's casualties has been close to 500% higher than the Vong's.

Wedge in Red2
25 July 2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Noshow
BUT I would prefer to be fighting them ina squad of soldiers(even if they are green) with uptodate weapons

That's another matter entirely. Even with State of the Art manufactuing technology, it's be a logistical nightmare to try and arm that many new recruits. In the middle ages, arming an army took time, and money. With manufacturing technology advancing, it'd take less time, but would still cost a truck load. I mean, what's a blaster rifle cost, 1,000Cr? Even assuming the NR can buy them/manufacture them them at half price, that means that even if the NR gets 10,000,000 recruits (a tiny number), it's going to cost them 5,000,000,000 credits to arm them with blaster rifles. And that's not even beginning to account for blast vests and helmets, uniforms, rations...

Jon

Darthspectre84
25 July 2003, 12:25 PM
Also one has to remember that Vong tactics involves first making the planet rebel against the NR. Thus allowing the spies to take out the dangerous targets.

Another thing that needs to be remembered is that the Vong have no meaning of the word of peace. If they are refugees then they are hunted down. Look at every planet that had refugees....they got attacked. That really morally dimished people.

Nova Spice
25 July 2003, 12:49 PM
Also one has to remember that Vong tactics involves first making the planet rebel against the NR. Thus allowing the spies to take out the dangerous targets.

This is true. But it's not the Vong doctrine per se. There have been many worlds annihilated without the aid of agents to force the planet into rebellion.

-Sernpidal
-Dubrillion
-Ithor
-Gyndine
-New Plympto
-Coruscant
-Bastion
-Muunilinst
-Barab I


Another thing that needs to be remembered is that the Vong have no meaning of the word of peace. If they are refugees then they are hunted down. Look at every planet that had refugees....they got attacked. That really morally dimished people.

Also very true. Throughout most of the invasion into the Mid Rim and Expansion Region, the Vong utilized an effective strategy of targeting worlds that took on refugees. It is for this very reason that I believe the New Republic's casualties to be well into the trillions and the Vong's to only be around a billion.

Darthspectre84
25 July 2003, 02:01 PM
Ah but Nova Spice :) you also have to take into account that Viqi Sheesh was working for them. She had alot to do with making the NR crumble faster. As for Bastion, there were those Vong spies on the Stardestroyers.. Barab 1 was too close to Vong territory so they did not need to send spies to take it out. Brute force was there :)

The rest of the planets :) well we have no real detail. Like Gydine..we knew it was occupied but how? was a YV fleet sent in or did sabeteurs take the defences out. early in the invasion the YV relied on their tech and the distrubances caused by Nom Anor. Later which is now they have exhausted the tech really and thats why they use others.

As for Serpindal....it was a back water world, no real importance to the NR so thats why the YV resorted to other tactics.

Nova Spice
25 July 2003, 02:50 PM
Ah but Nova Spice you also have to take into account that Viqi Sheesh was working for them. She had alot to do with making the NR crumble faster.

I won't argue with that. But what I will point out is that she had more to do with undermining the Senate and the New Republic government than helping bring down worlds. ;)


As for Bastion, there were those Vong spies on the Stardestroyers..

Yes, but what good did they do in making Bastion rebel? They were simply monitoring the activity on their individual ships. They hardly sowed the seeds for bringing Bastion down.


The rest of the planets well we have no real detail. Like Gydine..we knew it was occupied but how? was a YV fleet sent in or did sabeteurs take the defences out.

We do have quite a bit of detail on Gyndine. It was the primary focus at the beginning of Agents of Chaos II: Jedi Eclipse. On Gyndine, the New Republic mounted a capable defense, led by Wurth Skidder. As the New Republic fought off the Yuuzhan Vong fleets and ground forces, Leia Organa Solo saw over the evacuation of the planet. You may remember that this world was when we were first introduced to fire-walkers and Droma's family. Gyndine was taken down by force as described in the novels. Saboteurs had nothing to do with it's demise. ;)

Sernpidal was meant to be a) a message to the New Republic and b) a shipyard for the second wave of Yuuzhan Vong. That's why they dropped Dobido on it.

You say that the rest of the worlds I described have no real detail. I dare say Dubrillion, Ithor, and Coruscant have plenty of background on how they were crushed. As far as New Plympto, it is stated that the native Nosaurians resisted the invaders using guerrilla tactics, which frustrated the Vong commander. Therefore he seeded the planet with a biological weapon, wiping out all life.

So, as you can see, all my examples are correct, in that saboteurs and spies had nothing to do with their downfall. That is not to say you're wrong. We're shown ample evidence that many worlds did fall due to the influence of the Peace Brigade and Vong saboteurs.

-Atzerri
-Tynna
-Duro
-Belderone
-Firrerro


That's just to name a few in your defense. There are many others. ;)

Cakhmaim
25 July 2003, 06:42 PM
I won't argue with that. But what I will point out is that she had more to do with undermining the Senate and the New Republic government than helping bring down worlds.

True, but in essence by taking down the Senate you take down the planet. We have many examples of planet sthat fell because the Senate would not make a decision one way or the other. So by underminning the Senate she stopped some planets that might have survivied with a little reinforcement that it never got.

Oh and how can the Vong be at only 1 Billion dead? One worldship carried several, and the Vong has come out talked of how many that have failed, and how many Vong went with it. So just one worldship failinf and dying would totally blow away your figure.

Nova Spice
25 July 2003, 08:47 PM
Oh and how can the Vong be at only 1 Billion dead? One worldship carried several, and the Vong has come out talked of how many that have failed, and how many Vong went with it. So just one worldship failinf and dying would totally blow away your figure.

I'm sorry, I didn't clarify my last post. In a previous post I had the Vong castes at about one billion dead. That includes warriors, shapers, intendants, and priests. Worldships, for the most part, house the commoners of the Yuuzhan Vong society. Children, wives, etc. If you include those deaths, the figure would come to probably ten billion total Yuuzhan Vong deaths.

As far as military deaths for those fighting the Galactic Alliance, the deaths are either a bit below or above one billion.


True, but in essence by taking down the Senate you take down the planet. We have many examples of planet sthat fell because the Senate would not make a decision one way or the other. So by underminning the Senate she stopped some planets that might have survivied with a little reinforcement that it never got.

I never said she took down the Senate. I said she undermined it. In all practical reasoning, she made them question their own judgments and their beliefs. Which in effect made them a useless squabbling body. Granted, this may have affected which worlds would receive protection from the New Republic, but this did not affect how the Vong approached the conquest of an individual world. Which is the issue at heart. ;)

Cakhmaim
25 July 2003, 11:45 PM
I never said she took down the Senate. I said she undermined it. In all practical reasoning, she made them question their own judgments and their beliefs. Which in effect made them a useless squabbling body. Granted, this may have affected which worlds would receive protection from the New Republic, but this did not affect how the Vong approached the conquest of an individual world. Which is the issue at heart.

I do not know if I agree with this. The reason is that the Vong knew she would be doing this exact thing. They knew that the Senate would be bickering and fighting more for powerin the senate than in the galaxy. So by KNOWING that the NR was arguing amongst itself they may very well have decided to stay in some of the back water worlds for a while. Knowing that world of little import would not make anyone in the senate too upset about losing, just inconvenenced for a time. Also this would give the Vong the oppurtunity to build farms on the outside of the galaxy. If she didn't do this maybe Nom Anor and others would never have thought they could have gotten so far and not jumped the gun in the invasion. Maybe they would have waited for the rest of the task force before engaging. Then who knows maybe the Vong would have started the War more core side. Maybe even strike Coruscant first. Who knows. Either way I feel that she had some influence, maybe not direcxtly, in how the invasion started.


I'm sorry, I didn't clarify my last post. In a previous post I had the Vong castes at about one billion dead. That includes warriors, shapers, intendants, and priests. Worldships, for the most part, house the commoners of the Yuuzhan Vong society. Children, wives, etc. If you include those deaths, the figure would come to probably ten billion total Yuuzhan Vong deaths.

Ok using this we will also have to lower the Death count for the NR. We will no longer count anyone not in military, which will greatly decrease the numbers. Maybe to say 10 billion? 1-2 billion Vong and 8-9 NR.

Darthspectre84
26 July 2003, 04:51 AM
Also the thing is that those Worlships that come late they are evacuated to other ships to minimise casualties so the YV can die in combat.

And Nova Spiace :) touche about that. BUt about Gydine well we were placed at the beginning of the battle and ending. We dont know what happenend inbetween so to speak. And i am not sure but wasnt there a spy who tried to stop the evacuation?

As for Coruscant remember the Vermin Hunters Viqi brought with her.

Jedi_Staailis
26 July 2003, 08:08 AM
There is an excerpt from Force Heretic III (http://www.starwars.com/eu/feature/20030724/indexp2.html) on the official site where Luke mentions the "hundreds of billions of deaths across the galaxy." Thus number seems a bit low, since WEG's 2nd Edition R&E lists a Coruscant population of 650 billion (during the Empire, but I don't see it growing that much). However, Luke's figure is food for thought.

Darthspectre84
26 July 2003, 08:43 AM
That figure is not specific, he just talks generally about everyone who died.

Nova Spice
26 July 2003, 09:01 PM
I do not know if I agree with this. The reason is that the Vong knew she would be doing this exact thing. They knew that the Senate would be bickering and fighting more for powerin the senate than in the galaxy. So by KNOWING that the NR was arguing amongst itself they may very well have decided to stay in some of the back water worlds for a while. Knowing that world of little import would not make anyone in the senate too upset about losing, just inconvenenced for a time. Also this would give the Vong the oppurtunity to build farms on the outside of the galaxy. If she didn't do this maybe Nom Anor and others would never have thought they could have gotten so far and not jumped the gun in the invasion. Maybe they would have waited for the rest of the task force before engaging. Then who knows maybe the Vong would have started the War more core side. Maybe even strike Coruscant first. Who knows. Either way I feel that she had some influence, maybe not direcxtly, in how the invasion started.

I see where you're going with this and I'm not about to argue with you about her not having influence concerning which worlds were targeted. I agree that she had a major role in determining which worlds were more strategically important for the Vong. But that's not the issue. The discussion was about the Vong using saboteurs to take down most planets. And that's simply not the case. As I pointed out, no matter how bad Viqi Shesh bogged the Senate down or passed on advice to the Yuuzhan Vong, she did not determine how each individual world would fall. Most of the worlds fell due to overwhelming force. I think the novels testify to that fact.

As far as the theory that if Viqi Shesh had not been available as a resource to the Vong, the war plan would have been different, I also disagree completely. We've seen from the beginning that the Vong believe they are waging a holy war.

Warmaster Tsavong Lah was tasked to bring down the infidel worlds as quickly as possible. That meant a fast and overwhelming blitzkrieg (pardon the Nazi term) of the New Republic's worlds. No matter what Viqi Shesh had to say or whether she had been in the picture at all, Tsavong Lah would have still blasted the worlds in the manner that he did. Shimrra and the gods would have it no other way. That's also evident in the novels.

And I don't believe the Vong could have just hit Coruscant first. They came in through Vector Prime and had to work their way from the Outer Rim to the Core. As Leia stated in Star by Star, "We have fought every leg of the way from the Outer Rim to the Core." The Vong were met with stiff resistance throughout their conquest. They had to establish front lines, supply lines, and beach heads to maintain the war effort and the pace of their advance. I have to say, the Warmaster's plans worked quite well. ;)


Thus number seems a bit low, since WEG's 2nd Edition R&E lists a Coruscant population of 650 billion (during the Empire, but I don't see it growing that much). However, Luke's figure is food for thought.

I agree. I think the total losses are easily at the trillion mark. And according to Coruscant and the Core Worlds Sourcebook, Coruscant's population stands at roughly one trillion. But I have to agree that Luke is probably being more general in his statement.

Darthspectre84
27 July 2003, 03:35 AM
The only thing Viqi did was slow down the resistance and provided targets to the Vong. Beyound that nothing much she contributed. So the Vong tactics would have remained the same. And i doubt they would have attacked Coruscant so quickly as it is quite deep in the galaxy.

The first rule in invading new territory is; attack, secure, hold. It would make sense to do this first on the Vector Prime route. The only wrong thing the Vong did was not take the Imperials out. I know it would have sidetracked them but it would have jsut stayed there and became a nuisance for the route. And it is dangerously close to their first shipsyards. True Dovin mines in the way. Nice tactic that was.

And what i meant about Bastion is :) that one thing is sabotage but another better thing then that is details on enemy fleet movement. First priorty is to take out enemy ships then you can take the planet. Cause its not like the planet is going to hyperspace in to save the ships :D

Vong tactics include brute force from the warrior caste :) while its the Intendant or priests who must inflitrate to insure easy victory.