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The Ghost
9 July 2003, 07:59 AM
i have to get this off my chest.

i hate when people use the term "nerf" with a firey passion that rivals a thousand suns in a thousand hells.

all i hear lately is "wah wah wah, they nerfed my spells" or "they nerfed this ability" it just makes people come off as whiny little [expletives deleted] to me. i just want to shake them and tell them to grow up.

i don't know who started it, but i hope they pay in a majorly karmic way.

end rant.

Chris Curtis
9 July 2003, 09:25 AM
But it's okay if I compare someone to a "scruffy-looking Nerf herder", right? [grin]

Ravager_of_worlds
9 July 2003, 12:08 PM
Bartlett's Online has nothing to say on the word "nerf"

indeed, i feel your pain brother "The Ghost." The word "rad" has lost all meaning to me for its wanton use during the 80s. I have to tell myself that it has something to do with radiation...

if people are saying "they nerfed my spells"... something tells me these people play both D&D and Star Wars. I shouldn't begrudge the D&D players for stealing a Star Wars curse/idiom (such as Chris Curtis's use above)... but I think they've already used up every curse in D&D- for instance, if I hear the "drow" used in a curse sentence one more time, I think I'll... I'll... hurl. 8o

dgswensen
9 July 2003, 12:20 PM
What about nerf's antithesis, "beef"?

Satyrgrrrrl
9 July 2003, 12:21 PM
I hate it when people say "They nerfed [insert preferred method of damage dealing, ie: spells, power attack, haste]".

Because, what they're really saying is "They made [preferred method of dealing damage] fair!!"

It seems there is a lot of this whining going on about D&D 3.5, because they fixed a lot of things, and made them more balanced. This is super with me, but other people can do nothing but complain about it (probably because they abused it from the beginning).

So, I feel your pain, man, I really do. :D

The Ghost
9 July 2003, 01:08 PM
sidenote: "Rad" is short for radical. radical has nothing to do with radiation.

and to clarify:

Nerf exists as 2 things:
1) those foam-things you play with. Nerf Footballs, etc.
2) an imaginary docile animal from SW.

i believe people use "nerfed" more in reference to the first of those. as in nerfing a football would make it squishy and easy to catch.

sithspit, it just gets me so vaping mad!

Vanger Chevane
9 July 2003, 01:21 PM
Gubmint ran me through NRC Category V Certification.

There are a number of different measurements for radioactivity, look here (http://www.orau.gov/reacts/measure.htm).


Among them are both Rad and Rad-hour, which have been in use since to 1950's.

The Ghost
9 July 2003, 02:24 PM
clarification. the term "Rad" as used by skaters and stoners and everyone in the 80's is short for radical.

THIS USE has nothing to do with ratiation.

it is similar to being a "fan" of something, which is shortened from fanatic.

Reverend Strone
9 July 2003, 02:52 PM
Wow. I must admit that aside from the SW reference, I have never heard the word 'nerf' used at all. Must be a US thing.:?

Sasche
9 July 2003, 05:12 PM
Nerf is a brand of childrens toys.
They came up with a soft foam that holds shape really well back in the 80s (if not earlier - that was when I got my first football)

I think nowadays, they mostly make "dart" guns that kids can shoot each other with. They shoot "darts" which are made out of this foam stuff.

Nova Spice
10 July 2003, 07:48 AM
They Nerfed my character on Galaxies. And that's just a fact.

Actually, the term we Artisans have adopted is: "We've been ubernerfed." It's nice going from playing a fun character to a character that no longer earns credits and has been stifled from advancing.

So, sorry you hate the term nerf. But that's exactly what happened. ;)

Admiral_Atredies
10 July 2003, 08:48 AM
Ubernerfed? In German that would be over-nerfed.:)

I haven't heard the word used except for the Galaxies thread on these forums, so If it is a US thing, I guess its not a Texan thing...or maybe I just need to hang around the comic shop more. :)

The Ghost
10 July 2003, 12:03 PM
from my experience, it's a term only people who are prone to powergaming use. thus people who use the term are generally not the people to be listening to for game ballance.

Nova Spice
12 July 2003, 02:05 PM
from my experience, it's a term only people who are prone to powergaming use. thus people who use the term are generally not the people to be listening to for game ballance.

That's interesting. It seems that your experience may not be total then. I'm not a powergamer in anything. I play for fun, not to be the best and have the best.

And since I am an Artisan (which means I craft things, not shoot things), it's hard to be a powergamer anyway.

And as a final thought, I certainly hope you listen to those that say they've been cut down (aka Nerfed). They would know, better than someone who hasn't been nerfed, the price of game balance. ;)

Ardent
12 July 2003, 07:49 PM
I don't really respect the word 'nerf.'

Not so much because I think the connotation is bad. But because the people who use it fail to use any other words.

It's probably why I don't respect the vast majority of MMOGs. They're populated by people who want/don't want a nerf. With little to no other words.

I prefer role-playing over the xp wheel experience. The XP wheel should be a means to a goal: improvement of the character...not THE goal.

S'all I'm saying. I'm back playing NWN and somehow I don't see myself quitting anytime soon. I've come across more role-players in the last week than I had in months and months of MMO*s. I'm back doing what I love most: barding. :) Star Wars just doesn't have an equivalent.

ALFRED_THE_EWOK
12 July 2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Reverend Strone
Wow. I must admit that aside from the SW reference, I have never heard the word 'nerf' used at all. Must be a US thing.:?

This thread is the first I've ever heard it used. Don't know what kind of thing it would be.

Fred Getce
18 July 2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
They Nerfed my character on Galaxies. And that's just a fact.


Be thankful that is all they did to us Artisans. I hear they are going to take a Louisville Slugger to the Creature Handlers in 2 months and a Whiffle Ball bat to a couple of the others (Artisans may be in there line up at bat too...AGAIN).

STAR WARS GALAXIES RULES!

Ardent
18 July 2003, 07:28 PM
I find myself to be much more wise when I hear about this stuff. I think the best SWG story so far has been the registration server crashing for nine hours on the first day up. :p

As I said, I might play when the Space Expansion comes along. Depending on how much better JK3 is. So you can assume no. ;)

Nova Spice
19 July 2003, 09:48 AM
Be thankful that is all they did to us Artisans. I hear they are going to take a Louisville Slugger to the Creature Handlers in 2 months and a Whiffle Ball bat to a couple of the others (Artisans may be in there line up at bat too...AGAIN).

Wow, I'll have to tell Glit-Biter! He's working toward Creature Handler right now. Or should I? After all, he made fun of me for three days after us Artisans were nerfed. Maybe he should get a taste for what it feels like? :D

Anyway, I love Galaxies. I just wish they'd leave us poor Artisans alone. :(


I find myself to be much more wise when I hear about this stuff. I think the best SWG story so far has been the registration server crashing for nine hours on the first day up.

Ah, but Ardent my friend, that didn't deter Galaxies from becoming the Most Successfully Launched Game ever! As a matter of fact, despite the bugs (which are always to be expected with MMOs), the game is highly addictive and fun.

And I wouldn't rush to judgment about JK3 being better Galaxies. It'll be hard for even that game to trump graphics and gameplay over "An Empire Divided."

Most of the major bugs are gone anyway; now's a good time to join in. ;)

Ardent
20 July 2003, 11:38 AM
I refuse to accept bugs to be "something to expect." Frankly, what I expect is a polished product that, stand-alone, requires little to no re-work of the infrastructure after release. Which is exactly what happened to Galaxies.

JK2 was the epitome of the ideal I espouse. There was ONE problem with single player mode that got fixed. The rest of the 1.01 and 1.02, 1.03 and 1.04 were all updates to multiplayer based on player feedback. That's the kind of performance I hold a company to. SOE has proven time and again that the only thing you can expect from it is dispersonal customer service, terrible hardware reliability, third-party responsibility shouldering, incompetant and incohesive development teams and a general inability to get anything done thanks to some ridiculous desire to test everything for 2 years before releasing it to the public despite the fact that all their testing doesn't result in there not being any bugs, since they failed to account for compatibility in the first place.

While it's hard to say whether SOE's staff is pre-eminantly qualified as individuals (I just don't know enough about any of them, frankly), it's easy to see they're not up-to-snuff as a cohesive unit and, frankly, I doubt they ever will be.

No company, with the possible exception of Square and Blizzard (and prior to the debacle that was UO, Origin), that has released an MMO has struck me as a terribly *good* company to be looking to for a product.

The top-name developers aren't in the MMO game. That should probably say something to us, as consumers, about the quality of MMOs. In fact, a lot of the MMO developers are no-names and recent entries into the market, looking to pack a lot of disparate features and an incomplete vision into a game that will, almost without a doubt, sell insanely well and monstrously balloon their tiny wallets. People don't buy single player games unless they come well-recommended. This is a pretty accepted truth. However, everyone buys MMOs despite recommendations, because supposedly you have to "try it for yourself." IMHO this is a crock of bull. I can personally assure that if I were to drive over to my friend's house and bogart one of his character slots, make myself a character and play for a few hours I would find the game no more, likely much less, rewarding than I did in Beta, and in general would remain unimpressed beyond the visual and audial splendor. Which, frankly, I can get anywhere and probably can avoid a lot of the griefers, too.

Now that I've ranted, I should return to my studies of things arcane...

Nova Spice
21 July 2003, 04:22 PM
Well MMO's are a different animal. Galaxies has over twenty servers with thousands upon thousands of people on each server. You and I both know, that from our experiences with PlanetSide, MMO's require constant maintenance and upkeep. They've changed and reworked tons of stuff on PlanetSide; same as what they're doing with Galaxies. MMORPG's tend to have bugs (there's yet to be one released that has been bug free). So, it's not something singular to just Galaxies.

The entire concept of a massive game with incredible, real graphics, a real economy, and a real storyline, with hundreds of thousands of players, is mind-boggling when you put it into perspective. I knew from the start that Galaxies would have glitches and bugs.

My complaint was the stinkin' nerf on my Artisan! Though I do agree, that in hindsight, it may have balanced out the profession. Nevertheless, I don't see where Galaxies is any different than other MMO's as far as bugs are concerned.

Ardent
21 July 2003, 05:34 PM
It's not, which was my point. It's similar to producing flawed products in order to confuse the consumer into thinking they need to 'update' to remain 'in the game.' Which, by the way, is something WotC is guilty of. I don't, however, believe this to be the fault of the writers and developers in any way. I have little doubt they feel rushed a good deal of the time.

The fact is, Galaxies was rushed. *ALL* MMOs are rushed, from what I can see. With the possible exception of WoW...but it's being rushed by Blizzard standards. Maybe I'm just being silly, but I remember epic games like Ultima and Wizards & Warriors. Quality games in a time when game developers took their time and made the game right. Of late, thought, the trend is "more, quicker, expendible, sequel." Basically, we're being handed a perishable product and told that in order to enjoy it, we have to pay them money on a monthly basis. Which is ridiculous. I *still* play Magic: the Wizard War (486 game), all the Ultimas, all the Wizards & Warriors, a pile of the classic SSI games, the old school LucasArts adventure games.... They're still fun, despite being over 10 years old. I don't think it's purely a sense of nostalgia either. I think they really were carefully-crafted products.

Maybe I'm just annoyed with SOE in specific, or MMO developers in general, but the fact that the term 'nerf' grew solely out of the MMO says something to how they're warping the modern vocabulary. The more I poke around the internet, the more the educational decay of America is evident and it's *most* prevalent in MMOs. That's not just MHO either. It's an empirically demonstrable fact. Ironically enough, I doubt the same persons I'm ranting about could understand that last sentance. :/ So I'll stop.

Jedi_Staailis
21 July 2003, 08:00 PM
I think I fall on Ardent's side in this debate. MMOs are very tough, technically, but that means they should be put through even more strenuous testing and development. Galaxies launched with a bug that made player houses disappear for hours at a time. MMO or not, that's a completely unacceptable bug to launch with.


JK2 was the epitome of the ideal I espouse
Actually, if i recall, JK original was patched only once in total, correcting a joystick problem that occured in isolated cases. The multiplayer gameplay held up without any patching whatsoever and kept gamers (like me) playing JK multiplayer until the release of JKII.

Ardent
22 July 2003, 01:15 AM
To be honest with you, Staailis I don't remember much about playing the original JK. It's possible it only got patched once. I think the point is LucasArts had a reputation for quality game publishing. Galaxies is the first bad release I've seen from them.

The mountain of bugs that required serious re-writes and re-wiring of the game's infrastructure, both software and hardware, proved to me that the game simply wasn't ready. The launch wasn't quite as bad as AO, but I think you'd almost literally have to try to have a launch that bad. It still, however, casts a lot of doubt into my mind.

As I said, I may play when the Space Expansion is released. Until then, I see no reason to play SWG over any other game, since it offers me nothing truly unique to Star Wars (and don't give me locale, any of the "locales" could be transplanted into another sci-fi game and you wouldn't know the difference) and is devoid of one of the defining features of Star Wars: space travel. Yay zoneload terminals. Which, frankly, I doubt they'll be able to get rid of now. Who's going to spend a lot of time flying a ship from place to place when you can just pay a small fee and teleport from place to place with a zoneload terminal?

Too many mistakes, too fast.

Fred Getce
22 July 2003, 05:58 AM
Ardent; Jedi_staailis.

You guys are talking about two ENTIRELY different breeds of video games.

I am a computer programmer. I can write video game code. Every LAST one of those games you mentioned Ardent, Wizards and Warriors, Ultima, those gold boxed SSI game like Pool of Radiance, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM is a specifically set limit to the code and man hours of play. As a result they have a beginning and an "ENDING". That is the huge difference between those and a Massive Multi-player Online Role-playing Game. If I set Pool of Radiance to be about 80 hours of play than I will have 80 hours worth of game code to write. As a result I can "box" off the code with a beginning and ending and than test what is in the box BEFORE I release it, which is a thousand times easier. Plus these games are for ONE person and ONE computer. It makes it easier to test. Baldur's Gate for example is well done. It only had one major game crashing bug with its Global Variable, which was fixed in a patch when it was discovered. Since than it has been, for the most part, perfect.

HOWEVER, with MMORGs you have a "beginning", but no end to the code. It keeps growing plus it must accomodate thousands of players keeping track of what they are doing. As a result this code can become monstorous. Galaxies is well over 1 million lines of code. So if they have a bug with the variable playerWeaponDamageBonus in the function playerRangedWeaponDamage() They may never find it until someone plays the game and finds it and than reports it. Plus this will take them time. They are not going to say "Oh that is on line 2,345,619; column 621 I will fix it in a jiffy." And as far as "perfect-polished-end-product-video-games", I mean no offense but that is naive consumer dribble. I have found game crashing bugs in these so called perfect polished games before. Prime example is Darklands for the 486. In the battle with the witch and dragon if you throw a potion at her it causes the game to crash as a variable is undefined. It even crashes to DOS window and shows the error message and what caused it and it is a unhandled variable that is not defined. I have found bugs in some NES games as well. A friend of mine found an exploit in Double Dribble which allows him to score 3-point baskets without missing. Basically he jumps out of bounds, passed the backboard, with the ball to shoot it and at just the right time releases the ball. The ball disappears of the screen than comes crashing down, nothing but net! 3 POINTS. This will happen every time, but requires perfect timing to release the ball.

Anyway don't take offense, but being a computer programmer I get ticked when I hear the words "perfect polished product" in regards to software. NO SOFTWARE IS PERFECT AT RELEASE, remember this. They ALL have something in them that will require a patch or update later when it is discovered.

Jedi_Staailis
22 July 2003, 06:25 AM
I never said there were perfect releases. I just said that there were some that were close. The Jedi Knight comment was a mere trivia detail. As I noted, it too was patched. It was a bit more applicable to the original topic, since it was an example of a solid, balanced, MP release.

But I still stand by my point that there are some bugs that are just too obvious and that a game should not release with. I'm not sure how the house disappearing bug was not found in beta, to be honest. I don't know that much about the game's latest patches, since I don't have the time or money to play it myself. However, the bug was in a lot of reports on Galaxies, so it seems that it was fairly widespread.

As for debugging, I've done enough computer programming to know that it's not easy to find the mistake in code, and the longer the code, the worse it gets. But that's why you test as extensively as you can (in Galaxies' case, the beta) and work until the critical bugs are ironed out before you release. Obviously, I don't know the specifics of the code, but if houses are disappearing and you didn't find it in beta, there was something wrong with the beta test.

Nova Spice
22 July 2003, 08:03 AM
Well I can confirm that there are no major bugs left in my gameplay. There are some minor quirks and such. But that's the beauty of typing in /bug and reporting what's wrong. They usually fix the problem reported within a day.

I have to agree with Fred ; a MMORPG like Galaxies is an ever-evolving and ever-growing game. When they add something or fix a bug, many times it tweaks another line of code which causes another minor bug.

Since Galaxies debuted on June 26th, I've noticed that they've added three or four different creatures on Corellia. That's not a huge patch or update, but it is part of expanding the game. It is to be expected in a game with hundreds of thousands of players, a high level of graphics (the best I've seen in any computer game), and literally millions upon millions of NPCs and items and events, that there will be bugs.

However, it has been stated that the game was released too early. To be honest, LucasArts pushed Sony to release it on the 26th. Already, I can tell you that the servers are very stable, the major bugs are all but gone, and the content is being expanded. In a year, all the bugs will be gone, the Space Expansion will be well on it's way, and Galaxies will be dominating the MMO community. ;)

Ardent
22 July 2003, 08:39 AM
You guys have missed my point. Entirely. FYI Fred I understand the difference between an MMO and a non-MMO in theory. In reality, though, MMOs are perishable products as well. Most don't provide a significantly greater amount of hours of play than some of the more in-depth RPGs of today (for instance, I'm 60 hours into .hack and I doubt I'm even halfway through).

The fact is, most games that aren't considered MMOs are released and function as specified they would per packaging. Obviously, you have to expect some bugs, but most of the bugs you see are really obscure ones that you, as a casual player, aren't really going to encounter more than once or twice through the life of the game. They're usually addressed really quickly as well.

Galaxies did not. For one, it required a monstrous hardware upgrade the first day out of the box. Something that should have been handled prior to public launch. Secondly, it required a monstrous amount of balance tweaking despite over a year of beta testing. THAT is desplorable.

Sony has pointed the finger at LucasArts, LucasArts has pointed the finger at Sony. Most of the public would, given no outside information, probably find Sony at fault, if only because Sony has a history of flawed releases. I don't think I've ever bought first generation Sony products (with the exception of PlanetSide).

Therein is the crux of the issue. It's not the "inhereintly different nature of an MMO" which, btw, is also a crock of bull. MMOs are inhereintly different only in their portal code. Otherwise, they handle pretty much the way a linear game does, just with no tangible ending with a "Game Over" screen and a bunch of confetti and cheesy music or whatever. There is, however, always an end. It occurs right about when an expansion or a new edition is released. And don't kid yourselves, An Empire Divided is just one edition. They're already working on the second. And I don't mean an expansion. I mean a Star Wars Galaxies II. As per SOE mantra: more products, more players, more money.

Fred Getce
22 July 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Staailis
But I still stand by my point that there are some bugs that are just too obvious and that a game should not release with. I'm not sure how the house disappearing bug was not found in beta, to be honest. I don't know that much about the game's latest patches, since I don't have the time or money to play it myself. However, the bug was in a lot of reports on Galaxies, so it seems that it was fairly widespread.


I wasn't in BETA, so I never saw the house bug that a lot of players say, plus I have yet to encounter any kind of bug in the game since the launch. But it doesn't change the fact that bugs are always going to be apart of MMORGs no matter how you slice it and it is VERY possible for even a game crashing bug to make it into a retail release. I found one in Darklands a few years after the game was released and this was a an updated version to the newest addition of the game (mind you the company no longer supported the game when I bought it anyway, plus it was a few years old).

So with any MMORPG expect there to be a few snafus along the way.

Retraction: I shouldn't even be using the word BUG as that is a laymen term to describe a problem with software. There are Syntax Errors, Illogical Errors and Oversight Errors. I agree that there shouldn't be any Syntax Errors in a released product, but there will always be some Illogical Errors and Oversight Errors in any software you buy (and in MMORGS there will always be a continuous stream of illogical ones which require fixing). I have never encountered any Syntax Errors in Star Wars Galaxies, so until I do I believe it has none. But I have seen alot of Illogical ones and Oversight ones. :D

Fred Getce
22 July 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
You guys have missed my point. Entirely. FYI Fred I understand the difference between an MMO and a non-MMO in theory. In reality, though, MMOs are perishable products as well. Most don't provide a significantly greater amount of hours of play than some of the more in-depth RPGs of today (for instance, I'm 60 hours into .hack and I doubt I'm even halfway through).



Still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people I talk to about games and MMORGS always reach up to the store shelf and grab software (like Neverwinter Nights or GTA3) to compare them to MMORGS which by their nature (the mmorgs) cannot be compared to them. One being of course all you buy is client software. The actual game software is on a server and you are connecting to it. Since you are not buying the game software, right there is a major difference between the two types of games.



Originally posted by Ardent
The fact is, most games that aren't considered MMOs are released and function as specified they would per packaging. Obviously, you have to expect some bugs, but most of the bugs you see are really obscure ones that you, as a casual player, aren't really going to encounter more than once or twice through the life of the game. They're usually addressed really quickly as well.



This is what I am talking about right here. The above quote is true and I stand with you on this 110%. Baldur's Gate was like that in that the Global Variable was set to low because the DEVs did not think that the players would try to complete EVERYTHING in the game. But it was an easy fix with a 1.2 MB patch (I think) but it was well after release of Tales of the Sword Coast when the oversight error was found, and it wasn't found in the beta test either so again right there is an example of a so called polished perfect game with a bug that should not have been there but was. This happens all the time, doesn't mean a thing.



Originally posted by Ardent
Galaxies did not.


But now your comparing a MMORG to something like Baldurs Gate again. Baldur's Gate had one major flaw and that had to do with the Global Variable. They never thought that the players would literally do EVERYTHING in the game they programmed into it, so they set the Global Variable to a specific number they needed for the game and the quests and specific events. Some players found out that while in Durlag's Tower they could not go any further after entering Room X in the basement because the Global Variable had been met and could not be increased dynamically. It wasn't a huge syntax error, it was an oversight error on part to the devs and they fixed it with one update.

Star Wars Galaxies has far to much to do and cannot not be done in 80 hours of game play because it will continue to grow in size and performance, it is not set at a limit. Games like Baldur's Gate can spare 500 people to beta test since they can accomplish EVERYTHING in about 80 hours as they said ti would take to complete it, which will test the crap out of it by the way (if there is something broken they will find it but yet Tales of the Sword Coast went out the door with a bug...Hmmmm). They cannot do this with MMORGs that is another reason why they are different from one another. Show me a MMORG that can be released with out a single bug and I will show you a 10 year+ beta test run. No one is going to beta test for 10 years. No suit is going to pay me $33,000 a year to play a game I helped write for 10 years trying to locate where I goofed the code. And contrary to popular belief you cannot stare at source code and locate an error. You have to run the code to diagnosis the problem (this means play it and the devs do play the game).

Plus in some cases it is not a C++ code error but other things that cause stuff to screw up like the database they are using, not being able to respond to the code fast enough because it is getting to many requests and it lags and causes something to get lost with the command (happens to me all the time with coding databases for businesses, heres proof that I do this http://wo.myepath.com/wireless123/administrator/login.asp ). We will have to see after we have thousands of highly skilled characters running around if all the bugs for high-end skills are gone.

All MMORGS and, the type of games you described in the first quote, are completely different in nature to one another, I don't know how can you compare the two. Its like comparing a 2 story house to a skyscrapper. Both are structures. Both have walls, floors, ceilings, electrical outlets, glass, piping, restrooms but that is where their similarities begin to end. One is a home for a family of 4 no more, with everything they need to use it and live in it. The other is a place of business for possibly thousands with the capacity to expand some without requiring another building to accomodate the new people or activities or businesses.



Originally posted by Ardent
For one, it required a monstrous hardware upgrade the first day out of the box. Something that should have been handled prior to public launch.



Well, all I can say is get used to that. I predict you will need a 256 MB graphics card by the year 2008 for the vast majority of games than, with a minimum of 128 MB. Plus minimum of 1 GB of RAM and probably a 5.5+ GHtz processor. That's just the way the market is headed. I mean it was only 1995 when I got Eye of the Beholder I which was 8 years ago. Look at what games have done since, or require. 8o I only needed 4 MB of ram to play X-Wing Star Fighter on a 486 processor in order to hear real human voices. I now have 1 GB of RAM with a 2.53 Ghtz processor, GeForce IV and get voices, music, sound effects and high end graphics.



Originally posted by Ardent
Therein is the crux of the issue. It's not the "inhereintly different nature of an MMO" which, btw, is also a crock of bull. MMOs are inhereintly different only in their portal code. [/B]

No that statement is a crock.

Two Architects will use the same process, the same thought processes and the same math to build structures but one builds a 2 story house and the other builds a forty story office building. Are these two structures equally the same? No there not. They have similarities but the similarities stop at a certain point just as they do with MMORGs and a single player GTA3 (or final fantasy X). There natures are different.

Same thing with programmers. They both use C++ to make their functions, variables, and statements to graphics, sounds and other declared or included files, but that is about as far as teh comparison goes. One develops a game that stays on your PC and never has to connect to an external database to save game data ot retrieve game data. The other has to be on a server that can be hundreds of miles away from your PC where EVERYTHING is stored and you have to make calls to the system every 15 seconds to get updated information for your location, equipment, current health, yadda-yadda.

So while both Star Wars Galaxies and games like Never Winter Nights, Hexen, Diablo 2 use C++ for code (they could have easily used VB or JAVA if they really wanted to or a slew of other langauges), that is as far as the comparison can go with them. Star Wars galaxies uses a Oracle Database to store character records, equipment records, pet records, faction pet records, etc. Which means it is using SQL or a database language like CGI or PERL (or what have you) embedded in the C++ (This makes the coding and error locating work even harder, just ask a MMORG programmer), plus it requires responses from the database when an action is called before you can go further in the game. You want to know how long I had to wait to reclaim an item I bought from the bazaar...about a minute. They used JAVA for the portal language that is all, and that is a small difference and really isn't the issue here anyway. One is using a windows environment and the other is using a server environment. I will grant you the difference is subtle but there is a difference and any programmer will tell you this.

So unless someone can show me a game like Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Hexen, Final Fantasy X, GTA3 using Perl, CGI, SQL, PostgreSQL, etc. with a external DB for storing your characters and equipment with the base C++ code language to play the game, and is single player game with a beginning and ending with confetti and cheers and a cool ending sequence, than fine, MMORGs and those games are exactly the same in shape and form.

Until than, that is why their natures are completely different (think of games like Baldur's Gate as a closed environment and MMORGs as an open environment).

You really want a perfect bug free MMORG than you better put in about 10 years of beta testing. SW Galaxies had about 3 years in beta and that is considered average for a MMORG testing to get it off the ground. But nothing beats having 30,000 beta testers trying all points of the game at once. (Welcome to Beta IV where you pay to test).

Ardent
22 July 2003, 05:29 PM
The hardware update was not client-side, Fred. It was on Sony's side. Their login server was down the entire first day of release. Overloaded, as it were. There were a lot of speculations as to why, but the fact is: the server was not equipped to handle the traffic and required a new, more powerful server replacement.

My computer can handle Galaxies even with everything turned up full, although I get some slowdown in cities because of all the local pings, not because of machine quality. You're never going to avoid lag in densely populated areas unless you can improve broadband significantly (and give it to everyone).

As far as the two architects example, your argument is heading directly for my camp. The two buildings use the same math, the same engineering and differ in only one area: intended capacity. This does not change the math, it does not change the engineering, it does not change the aesthetic. Unless you allow it to. Sorry man, I know how tricky handling SQL/Java is. My friend is actually majoring in DB work and I sometimes get tapped to do some debugging on his homework.

I know I couldn't write that, but then again, I'm not a programmer. Nobody pays me for my expertise. I do it partly as a hobby and partly out of necessity, but not for any sort of material reward. People that do should, as far as I'm concerned, be held to a higher standard. Period.

Fred Getce
23 July 2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Ardent
As far as the two architects example, your argument is heading directly for my camp. The two buildings use the same math, the same engineering and differ in only one area: intended capacity. This does not change the math, it does not change the engineering, it does not change the aesthetic. Unless you allow it to.

So you telling me that because they both used C++ in writing the code they are exactly the same thing?

Your basically saying to me that a 10 year olds painting is no different then Pablo Picaso's [sp?] because they both used the same type of paint and canvas (I would probably have to agree with you; since Picaso paintings, to me, anyway, LOOK like they were painted by a 10 year old). But I can find about a million art critiques that would disagree with that observation, just as well as my dissagreeing that a Star Wars Galaxies and Grand Theft Auto 3 being the same thing because they both used C++ in writing the code. While both paintings are on white canvas with oil paint on it, the ten year old's is worthless but Picaso's is worth several 100,000 dollars, now that is a big difference in seperating the two paintings. Likewise Star Wars Galaxies and Grand Theft Auto 3 or Dungeon Master or Final Fantasy X or Neverwinter Nights or even Knights of the Old Republic may use C++ in the writing of the source code, but that is where the similarities end, Star Wars Galaxies requires outside influences for the game to even work which is beyond their control i.e. ISPs, modems, routers, 3rd party software to run the servers, External Database to store the data, etc. any one of these could take a major-cannot-prevent-unreversable-dump and end the game as we know it. That is why they are different. Games like KOTOR do not have to rely on such things to work or to supply fun, and these games will more than likely have bugs when they are realesed anyway, but will have a patch to fix it, which incedently many of these games are released with the knowledge that the bug exists and they know it that is why the patch is up either the same day or the next day to fix it, yet it also wasn't found during their beta test either. Games like Star Wars Galaxies is going to have some as well, more so than KOTOR, simply because it is more complex (this also helps to seperate the two type of games a little bit more). You will not catch all the bugs, it is as simple as that.

Besides, ANYTHING could be compared at its BASIC level with something else and be simliar if not a darn near carbon copy of it, but this doesn't make it the same thing. It just doesn't mean a thing.

Try this with a car manufacturer. Tell him this car and that car are the same exact thing because they both used the same basic elements in their design and construction and see if they agree or disagree. How about telling a zoologist that a Duck and a Platypus are the same thing because they both have webbed feet, a bill, lay eggs and swim in water. But I know that Zoologists would disagree with that observation too. So back to the 2 story home and a skyscrapper analogy, tell an architect that they are the same thing because they both used the same math, engineering and construction materials and I will guaruntee you that he will stare at you like your from Mars. I know that if we tried that same logic with the military guys on these forums about the .45 Automatic Pistol and the .45 Ingram 10 are the same thing because they use the same math, materials to create the barrel, frame and body and shoot the same size caliber bullet, I know they will immediately deny such logic. While they may both use a reactive gas to propell a lead slug over great distances with the capacity to injure if not outright kill does not mean they are the same thing.

Now I am not trying to be condenscending or sarcastic, but that is how I see your arguement meaning that two things with some similarities or with the same basic elements or with the same begining are the EXACT same thing in the end when they are not. Just because two things have similarities or the same basic elements whether in the begining, in the middle or at the end does not mean they are the same thing.

Grimace
23 July 2003, 12:27 PM
Okay, I'm going to jump in here before things get too crazy with this really far, off-topic arguement. What the two of you are debating has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Add the fact that you two could probably argue your points ad naseum, I'd like to request that if you wish to continue this discussion, please take it to Private Messages.

Fred Getce
23 July 2003, 01:38 PM
Actually Grimace that was all I was going to say on the matter after that post.

But yes to get back on topic the nerf whinners are in full force at the official star wars galaxies website about the creature handler being "nerfed".

I guess the vast majority of them have never played a SW RPG like D6 or D20. I know that if I had a pet beast and I sent it in to fight something that was well beyond its skills and it died it was gone forever. I don't think any GM would allow me to pick it up; put it in my pocket to revive and instant heal it. If it dies than it is dead for good.

But that was what was happening in the galaxies game. CHs would send their three beasts to fight a creature they could never hope to fight just so they could get easy XP, I have seen it first hand. Guy sends in three beasts to fight a creature that quickly kills them one..two..three mean while they are spamming head shot like it was that Morphin button and low and behold the toon killed it, gains the XP. Than puts the dead pets back into the datapad for a quick revive, full heal and summons there out again and there off.

Nova Spice
23 July 2003, 04:16 PM
Well, I totally agree with the CH nerf. I think they should also prevent "large and high-level" pets from being in a city or settlement. No offense, but I really hate seeing a Giant Variated Womp Rat, who's as big as the Marshmallow Man in Ghostbusters, bounding down the streets of Tyrena. Especially when it's named "Splinter."

Fred Getce
24 July 2003, 05:53 AM
I saw splinter. All I could think of was oh please.

Last night in Anchorhead I saw three Rancors running around. In Bestine I saw 2. In Mos Eisley I saw one. There are more Rancors on Tatooine than you can jack-up a blaster too.

Here are my 3 biggest beefs with the game, all my others are more a programmer/role player preferences I would have done.

#1: This is supposed to take place a year after the destruction of the death star as depicted in ANH, yet we know of Dathomir and Endor and can travel to these worlds. Wasn't Dathomir unknown until after the book Courtship of Princess Leia? Plus when was Endor discovered by the Empire and than known by the rebel alliance? These two things are very glaring and if they had eliminated them we wouldn't be having this problem with continuity (Rancors, Nightsisters and what not else).

#2: NPC missions are still borken, that's right; not broken but borken. You can take the mission, interact with the people involved in it and everything else but cannot complete it even when you are at the end of the mission. Twice I have had my scout try to perform the take these "toys to the kids mission" and in both cases I cannot complete it because the game is not giving me the toy to take to them. By the way Nova I think I have figured out the mystery of unlocking the FS slot. You have to perform the NPC missions and I think you must perform them ALL! Or you must perform specific ones for your character (the others will not help in unlocking your FS slot). Plus the missions of the main characters (Leia, Tallon Karrde, Han, Luke, etc.).

#3: The vast majority of the game was developed for high end characters, with very little content for the beginning characters or low level ones, other than blasting womprats, rills, worrts and performing FDEX missions. Any and all destroy missions include at least one red con and in some cases more than 1 (like 4) even for modetaly developed characters. Until they fix this it feels like I am a player in a prick GMs campaign. I feel like I'm a first level scout and my opponent is 15th level soldier (D'oh).

Other then those 3 things the game rocks. I have yet to see a bug (other than the NPC missions not working and that is due to some illogical and over sight errors that they have yet to get too) that kills the game or prevents my enjoyment of simply playing the game and seeing the sights.

I plan on putting screen shots up with text like a news report on stuff I see at YOU52 (http://www.you52.com). Hope to see you there Nova Spice.

Nova Spice
24 July 2003, 12:23 PM
Aye, you as well Fred. I agree, the game is very enjoyable. More so, than I actually anticipated. My main beefs with the game are:

-Lack of story for the different groups. An example is the Beldonna's League on Corellia. Who are they? What do they do? Why do they just stand out in the open for anyone to stumble upon?

-Fixated NPCs. I know this probably stems from me playing D20, but I cannot stand running through the grasslands of Corellia and finding Ragtag Kooks just standing there, doing nothing. I'd love to see them patrolling together, talking, or actually fighting another group.

-Battlefields. I think the Galactic Civil War should be more visible. I would love to see a Corellian city (like Kor Vella) come under siege by Imperials due to a large collection of Rebels. And I wish they'd do away with the wierd looking boundaries that mark a battlefield.

-More Equipment. As of now, there are only seven different types of armor in the game. That's simply not good enough for me. Granted, you can always loot Tusken Raider armor and Stormtrooper armor, but IMO that doesn't count. This is Star Wars, there's lot of crap. I mean, all the Devs had to do was crack open the Arms and Equipment Guide to find Shadowsuits, Tuff1 Armor, Barabel shock armor, etc. I just want more content!

Fortunately I've heard that with the "Cries of Alderaan" story, the plot may well develop within the game. That's good to hear. On top of that, it's been promised that more content is going to be added (including equipment, weapons, and armor). So, that pleases me.


By the way Nova I think I have figured out the mystery of unlocking the FS slot. You have to perform the NPC missions and I think you must perform them ALL! Or you must perform specific ones for your character (the others will not help in unlocking your FS slot). Plus the missions of the main characters (Leia, Tallon Karrde, Han, Luke, etc.).

Really? That's interesting. I've already run a mission for Garm Bel Iblis. That's a pretty interesting theory and by the sound of it, I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. Cool. Never thought about that.

Anyway, hope to meet you in the game, Fred. What's your character name?

-Tai Kren'ley, Bothan Weaponsmith-Corbantis Server
-Jowltharr, Wookiee Brawler-Naritus Server

Fred Getce
25 July 2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
-Fixated NPCs. I know this probably stems from me playing D20, but I cannot stand running through the grasslands of Corellia and finding Ragtag Kooks just standing there, doing nothing. I'd love to see them patrolling together, talking, or actually fighting another group.


This is a staple from the years gone by of ALL video rpgs. What I really HATE is when you must defeat a boss monster to get to an NPC and I am left thinking "How does this guy go to market with this creature outside his house?".



Originally posted by Nova Spice
-More Equipment. As of now, there are only seven different types of armor in the game. That's simply not good enough for me. Granted, you can always loot Tusken Raider armor and Stormtrooper armor, but IMO that doesn't count. This is Star Wars, there's lot of crap. I mean, all the Devs had to do was crack open the Arms and Equipment Guide to find Shadowsuits, Tuff1 Armor, Barabel shock armor, etc. I just want more content!

Fortunately I've heard that with the "Cries of Alderaan" story, the plot may well develop within the game. That's good to hear. On top of that, it's been promised that more content is going to be added (including equipment, weapons, and armor). So, that pleases me.



Really? That's interesting. I've already run a mission for Garm Bel Iblis. That's a pretty interesting theory and by the sound of it, I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. Cool. Never thought about that.

Anyway, hope to meet you in the game, Fred. What's your character name?

-Tai Kren'ley, Bothan Weaponsmith-Corbantis Server
-Jowltharr, Wookiee Brawler-Naritus Server



I play a Mon Calamari, Ousock, on the Kauri server who is an artisan who is Pro-Imperial.

I also have a Corellian, Crais Otheo, a Marksman/Scout on the Bloodfin server (the most bugged server they have), he is currently leaning towards teh rebels side.

I also have Rowarr on the Lowca server. A wookie brawler/marksmen who always talks in Shrywook, meaning I type into the chat box stuff like "Wrrrroaarr wrrurraor arourroroooo". People will have to guess but I will have one person to translate for me in the group (I send tells). Thankfully being a programmer means I can type pretty efficiently so as not to cause a drag on the RP element in the game.

As far as the FS slot issue is concerned, it stems from the fact that Binna, the barmaid at Bestine on the Bloodfin server offered me a mission "Take the toys to the children". It put me in the mindset of Qui-Gonn Jinn doing a simple yet noble deed, and being a programmer I believe that to make it simple on the coding side and still make it challenging for the player they may have set it up so that NPC driven missions generate a random serial number when ever you take a mission. When completed this serial number which can include numbers, letters both upper case and lowercase, is compared to your characters serial number (or account key) and if it matches BAM FS slot is now open for that server you were on. This does mean that it could take a good length of time for it to happen but if you grind performing NPC missions you coul get it in a few months. Anyway I could be so wrong as to be drowning in assumption lagoon, but the theorys sound.

The Ghost
25 July 2003, 07:44 AM
and everyone just completely looks away from my complaint.

sithspit.

shut this down.

Nova Spice
25 July 2003, 09:09 AM
You complained that you hated the word: "nerf." Several of us explained why we used the word "nerf." Then we started talking about where we use the word: "nerf." And then the topic became about Star Wars Galaxies because that's where a lot of "nerfing" is going on these days.

Complaint noted. :)


I also have Rowarr on the Lowca server. A wookie brawler/marksmen who always talks in Shrywook, meaning I type into the chat box stuff like "Wrrrroaarr wrrurraor arourroroooo". People will have to guess but I will have one person to translate for me in the group (I send tells). Thankfully being a programmer means I can type pretty efficiently so as not to cause a drag on the RP element in the game.

Awesome! I do the same thing with Jowltharr on the Naritus server. He's currently on Rori and everyone he's met has received: "Rarrrrr orrarar haarhaoaha." Immediately, I have some newbs trying to teach me "Speak Basic." That's mildly amusing. :D

Faraer
25 July 2003, 10:27 AM
I don't like the term because I dislike voguish insular jargon in general. (Or when people use MMRPG jargon and drivelling abbreviations like 'char' in the context of other RPGs. Or when they write LOL and you know they're doing no such thing. Or when they write something offensive or unfunny and add a smiley.) Plus it's one of those words that's usually an exaggeration, like 'broken' (to refer to a rule you don't like).

Vash Knives
23 November 2003, 11:15 AM
the only things that should be nerfed are the walls. That way if someone is throw into a wall they won't be to badly injured.:janson: