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Arkadin
21 July 2003, 08:32 AM
Hey guys and gals, got another wacky theory for you...and let me know if someone came up with this one already.

I don't think that Padme really loves Anakin. Okay, I gotta admit, watching their hasty "romance" was painful enough due to the horrible dialogue, but I hope Lucas was trying to showcase something else instead.

See, I think Anakin used the Force to influence her. (Let the flaming begin.) :)

First problem I have with the romance thing is that there was nothing leading up to it. Padme hadn't seen Anakin in ten years. Funny when you think about it. A cute little kid saves your planet and you can't take time out of your schedule to go visit him and see how he's doing?

Second, Anakin spends most of the movie acting like a brat. He's disrespectful both to Obi-wan and Padme. Now aside from the fact that Hayden Christensen is really cute (and I'm secure enough in my manhood to say that) there's no reason why Padme should fall for him. He doesn't, IMHO, show any virtues that would attract an intellegent, career-minded older woman. The only sympathetic moment he has in the whole movie is after his mom dies and he wastes that moment telling Padme how he butchered an entire village full of people, including women and children. (Oh yeah, admitting to mass murder always attracts the babes.) :)

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not even saying that Anakin did it on purpose. Desire is a powerful thing. It's possible he's doing it without being aware of it at all. As powerful as he's supposed to be and considering how much trouble he has controlling his own impulses, it woudn't surprise me at all to learn that he'd been subtly influencing Padme.

Imagine if you will the above scenario. And imagine what would happen when Obi-wan found out what he did, accidental though it might have been. Imagine the horror of a pregnant Padme when she discovers what's happened to her. She leaves Anakin (woudn't you?) and the Jedi Order turns against him, leaving him no choice but to turn to his only remaining "friend", Palpatine. And so his descent to the Dark Side is completed.

So....whaddya think?

Korpil
21 July 2003, 08:52 AM
8o Oh my God! That could make sense!!!!

Stratus Tel'narus
21 July 2003, 09:08 AM
I really think you're on to something here. This romance never really made sense as Padme should have more sense then to get herself into this kind of a situation with Annie.

Since the chosen one does seem to have powers none of the other jedi have, it only makes sense that he could do something like this without meaning to.

Brilliant theory. :)

Rouge8
21 July 2003, 09:31 AM
That does make sense. Saving her life shouldn't be that efectuful, so I think you may be right!

Arkadin
21 July 2003, 10:00 AM
Glad you liked my little theory...The only downside I can think of as to why this not not be the case is that the idea of emotional rape might be too mature a theme for Ep. 3.

Jedi_Staailis
21 July 2003, 10:19 AM
Wow, that's incredible. As a plot twist, it's on par with "Luke, I am your father." Not to mention that it makes perfect sense.


The only downside I can think of as to why this not not be the case is that the idea of emotional rape might be too mature a theme for Ep. 3.
Agreed. As much as I like your theory, I don't think it will in Episode III, simply because it's a bit much for a movie children will watch.

Arkadin
21 July 2003, 10:38 AM
...then you're gonna love my theory that Yoda knew everything that was going to happen and let it because he knew things had to happen that way...
:)

Jim Williams
21 July 2003, 10:38 AM
Exactly, so we may just have to settle for the old "You can't help who you fall in love with."

On a related note, I'm always wondering why Padme has this stricken look around Anakin, like when he's talking to Watto about where to find his mother. It just doesn't feel like concern to me. it's like she's horribly afraid of something...a secret?

Nova Spice
21 July 2003, 03:15 PM
On a related note, I'm always wondering why Padme has this stricken look around Anakin, like when he's talking to Watto about where to find his mother. It just doesn't feel like concern to me. it's like she's horribly afraid of something...a secret?

I've noticed this as well, Jim. This all points back to Leia's quote in Return of the Jedi: "She was very beautiful. Kind, but sad."

I am one of those that thinks Episode III will have an ESB-esque twist. Perhaps it relates to Padme?

Jedivisionary
21 July 2003, 05:17 PM
:) I think Uncle George is just hokey enough for the "You can't help who you fall in love with" theory. Not that that's a bad thing. I love Star Wars in all its hokiness. No subtle theory lke that is needed, although it is a nice plot twist.

starkiller210
22 July 2003, 03:04 PM
How do you explain Anikan becoming Half man/half machine? (had to ask it)

Other than that I think your theory is a good one!

mojo1701
22 July 2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by starkiller210

How do you explain Anikan becoming Half man/half machine? (had to ask it)

Umm... Suffering really harsh, brutal even, wounds (internal and external), and the only way he can survive is by machine, since he has suffered so much internal scarring and burning... my theory anyway....

Corwin
23 July 2003, 01:48 AM
Wow!

This is really, really creepy, in that it makes perfect sense. I have to admit that I kind of got this weird feeling watching the Padme/Anakian scenes, and it always seemed strange how Padme went from “Don’t look at me that way” to (ostensibly?) falling in love.

I also remarked when I first saw AotC, and later, that Anakian reminded me of Telly from the movie Kids. Make of that one what you will.:raised:

Admiral_Atredies
23 July 2003, 07:57 AM
Thats a nice little theory you've got there. But, on a side note, there is also Leia's reflection on Padme in RotJ. "She was very beautiful, but sad..." (or something along those lines). This could suggest that both Anakin and Padme are very emotionally unstable people, and are just latching on to each other to try and cover up the quite disturbing and troubling matters in their own lives. Anakin is training to be a Jedi, something that is very taxing on a person, both mentally and physically(especially emotionally), and is haunted by his mother's unknown fate. Padme, on the other hand leads a stressful and dangerous life as a politician fighting tooth and nail to save a corrupting government from going under, while at the same time is dodging assassination attempts that are completely out of her control. Just look at the weapons inspector in the UK who just killed himself because of a great deal of political stress. Pretty scary situations for both, especially taking into account that both are still very young people. Just my two creds, but I think were really on to something here...

mojo1701
23 July 2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Admiral_Atredies

Thats a nice little theory you've got there. But, on a side note, there is also Leia's reflection on Padme in RotJ. "She was very beautiful, but sad..." (or something along those lines). This could suggest that both Anakin and Padme are very emotionally unstable people, and are just latching on to each other to try and cover up the quite disturbing and troubling matters in their own lives. Anakin is training to be a Jedi, something that is very taxing on a person, both mentally and physically(especially emotionally), and is haunted by his mother's unknown fate. Padme, on the other hand leads a stressful and dangerous life as a politician fighting tooth and nail to save a corrupting government from going under, while at the same time is dodging assassination attempts that are completely out of her control. Just look at the weapons inspector in the UK who just killed himself because of a great deal of political stress. Pretty scary situations for both, especially taking into account that both are still very young people. Just my two creds, but I think were really on to something here...

Or, the reflection in RotJ might be because of Padmé in Ep. III. Maybe because of what happens to Anakin in Ep. III, she hits a deep rut.

Arkadin
24 July 2003, 07:03 AM
Danger and adversity can sometimes bring people together who ordinarily wouldn't think about it. Still, I think Padme should have known better. Although Natalie Portman hasn't aged much between movies, remember that Padme has aged 10 years and should be in what her mid-to late 20s. Her sudden attraction to a kid who's barely out of high school still seems kinda weird and even downright icky at times. Can you imagine falling for someone you knew who was in second grade when you were in high school? I dunno...still seems kinda weird to me...

Seriously, if I were her friend, I'd be asking her, "what the Hell were you thinking?" And again, Anakin never seemed to show any kind of virtue that might make up for his lack of physical maturity. Padme herself said that she'd always think of him as a little boy. And he damned sure acted like it through the whole movie... :D

Darthspectre84
25 July 2003, 12:04 PM
Thats why he fell to the Darkside :P

Darien_Shadowfyre
1 August 2003, 02:12 PM
Okay, here's my opinion.

Anakin is emotionally about 16. I don't care what age he is biologically, everything about him screamed "hormonal teenager"

Padme is someone who took on emotional responsibilit and maturity at a very young age at the expense of the "growing up" that most of us do at that age, and at the expense of normal human experiences.

She was his first crush. And given that the Jedi Order doesn't foster a normal growing enviroment either, she became his ONLY crush and thus a kind of fixation.

Now here's a young woman, who suddenly finds herself with a young, handsome, passionate, if somewhat immature suitor. At first she brushes him off. Then as they spend time together she feels a fondness for him. As time progresses he clumsily makes his feelings obvious. For the first time since she was 10 or 11, she gets a crush herself.

As they go on, she watches him go through a serious emotional trauma. Kick in the "care-giver" effect, and she gets closer to him. Now note, the slaughter of the Tusken village doesn't illict the same response from her that it would a woman of this place and time. They live in a world where such things are much more common, and vigilante justice is in fact permitted, especially on a harsh world like Tatooine. His actions, in the SW universe, while disturbing, are not horrifying the way it woud be to us. In fact, its only his slaughter of the women and children that make this event so regrettable.

Add a quick note: in the deleted scenes on the DVD, it shows Padme already showing crush signs to her parents, as she gazes out the window at him, only to blush when she's caught by her mother and sister. This takes place before the kiss scene. So obviously she is feeling attracted to him earlier in the full version of the film than in the theatrical release. (Minor complaint: every scene that expanded on Padme and her own character were ripped from the theatrical release, and is one reason why the romance suffers. These scenes add depth that it really needed.)

Finally they are thrown in together in a life or death situation,where they are on the verge of being executed. Here she allows herself to shed the role of Queen/Senaor and to regress to her long suppressed youth and proclaim her love for Anakin.

This is the important thing to be learned from the romance. They do not have True Love. They essentially have First Love, which IS overly-dramatic, prosey, and often doomed to a tragic end. They are two teenagers giving love and romance a go for the first time, and are stumbling through it as best they can, thinking, as we all did when we were that age, that this first time is the REAL THING and so they rush headlong into it, unaware of all the things ahead of them.

This was what I took from the romance the first time I saw Episode II and thus is probably why I'm one of the only people who really enjoyed the movie. :) Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

(Please don't sue me, Dennis Miller!!!!)

Arkadin
1 August 2003, 05:36 PM
Expands on the romance in the deleted scenes, eh? That's cool.

I'm still not too convinced on the whole "mass murder" thing. Yeah, I can understand that vigilante justice might be common on Tatooine, but this is a noblewoman from Naboo. I'm sure she was shocked. Who wouldn't be? I'm sorry, dude...but I'm not dating anyone who just killed a whole village full of people and I don't think most people would consider that too rational.

Of course, love isn't rational at all. Which still reminds me of my other point. IF Padme and Anakin had, let's say been closer in age in Ep. 1 and they had kept in touch, (Something very believable considering what they'd been through in the first movie) then the romance that ensued makes more sense. Otherwise, to me, anyway, it's not really romance. It's teenage lust and that kinda cheapens the whole thing, IMHO.

I just don't see how you run into someone who haven't seen ot thought about in 10 years (Someone who was like seven at the time.) and all of a sudden consider him a dating prospect. Especially when he spends half the movie being immature and the other half being a horse's rear end. Hope there's some scenes of Anakin acting like he's got some common sense in that "deleted scenes section. :)

But glad you brought the subject up...will have to view them and see if my views change any...Thanks, chief!

Darien_Shadowfyre
1 August 2003, 11:31 PM
It isn't so much as teenage lust as long-repressed sides finding expression. For her, she's been very serious. Her family does tease her about finding time to have a family of her own, which eventually leads up to her looking out wistfully at Anakin. As I was saying, its not that they love each so much, as both suddenly have a need to love and be loved, and much like electricity, it goes for the path of least resistance. For him, she's a childhood obsession. For her, its a young man who's expressed a desire for her, not her position or her prestige. Plus, he's willing to throw away all he has worked for, just for her. When we're talking First Love, all of these reactions are quite common.

Personally I think George went a little too high-brow with the romance. It had a very Courtly Love (the overly dramatic pledging of feelings; the willingness of the Knight to sacrifice all for the Lady) feel as well, which just doesn't go well with the modern movie audience. I'm a bit... odd in my tastes, so I watched EpII, saw it, got it, and hell I enjoyed it!!! But honestly, I wouldn't have done it like this either, and gone for something more traditional and obvious. But its Uncle George's series, not mine. Anyway, at least in my opinion, its nice to not see the standard storybook romance.

Oh and on a side note, the slaughter of the Tusken Raiders, remember he just killed the people who kidnapped his mother, tortured her, and whom was probably told all the horror stories of Tusken attacks and raids and depredations against human settlements by the Lars. Also, Anakin is not proudly boasting of this. He's horrified by what he did. The novellization and graphic novel adaptation of EpII extends the confession scene a few moments longer than even the DVD, where it has her continuing to comfort him and that last new scene goes:

P: To be angry is to be human.

A: I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this.

P: *hugs him close* you're only human....

I really wish that last line had been included, because that really shows alot of the emotion going on here. Natalie Portman says in an interview that Padme is ultimately responsible for Anakin's fall. That last line really shows that. She's not a Jedi. She doesnt' see a moment of weakness as a perilious slide to the Dark Side. She only sees a boy who lost his mother and lashed out at those responsible. It shows that she understands what he did, that she forgave him.

I mean honestly, if I had been in that situation, I would have burned that camp down. I would hope to God I would be able to keep from indiscriminant slaughter, but every last warrior in that village I would have spit and roasted on my blade, if I had found my mother in that condition, and I have my emotions pretty well controlled. I'm not the emotional wreck Anakin is.

Again, the novelization describes the slaughter in more detail. He didn't mean to kill the women and children. Basically the women ran into the huts with their children to hide, and while in his rage, Anakin was ripping boulders off the cliff side and flattening the entire village, not conscious of who was in them. He was only actually cutting down the attacking warriors who approache him. It wasn't until he calmed down that he realized the ramifications of what he had done. This is not an excuse or saying he did the right thing. I'm just saying that what he did was understandable from the mindset of a Star Wars resident.

Arkadin
2 August 2003, 10:52 AM
...then the true explanation for the lunacy that is the "romance" between Anakin and Padme is really just the result of poor editing?

well, well.....

Darien_Shadowfyre
2 August 2003, 01:48 PM
Essentially yes.

Hey it destroyed Highlander: Endgame. Get the DVD. Watch the original version, the previous edit, and then the deleted scenes. Take one scene from each, but them in the order in which they should have been shown if it was all one edit, and suddenly the confused miasma of Highlander Endgame makes sense!!!!!!!!!!!

1) Duncan kills Connor (orig edit)

2) Duncan tracks down Bob (Kell's henchman)
3) Duncan impales Bob on the front of a van with Connor's katana and lets it run through Kell's base with a note.
(both of these from deleted scenes)

4) Kell realizing Connor is dead and Duncan is coming from him, decides its time to kill his henchmen because he needs their strength to take on Duncan (filled in the blanks)

5) Kell goes to kill his henchman. Jin Kei realizes what is happening, goes for his sword, realizes he can't beat Kell, so he kills himself out of spite. Kell finishes off the rest of his mininons with a blinding double cut before they can move from the table (previous edit)

Suddenly that absolutely horrid theatrical release clarified as you realize WTF is actually going on. Endgame would have been a better movie had it had a better editor. :)

Arkadin
2 August 2003, 05:45 PM
Thank the Fates for you, dude! I was thinking of going to a Highlander website to ask that very same question... :D

Still not totally convinced of the romance between Padme and Anakin, but maybe it's just 'cause I like my version better...*LOL*

In the meantime, I think I'm gonna stop going to see movies in the theater. Seems like they're nothing but Cliff notes for the whole story...
Yes...let's boycott movie theaters until they agree to show the whole movie.
Who's with me? :D

BrianDavion
2 August 2003, 07:12 PM
I'll agree to that. they have no problem showing the entire length of some movies like titanic, LOTR etc, (I got no problem with that if those movies can get 3 hours in good for them!) but why can't a movie like SW get a bit of an extension?

Darien_Shadowfyre
2 August 2003, 10:24 PM
Actually they have gotten extensions. :) Now this is a rumor, but I read somewhere that Episode II unedited was close to 4 hours long. Also that George is planning to restore ALL material to ALL the movies, when they release the massive 6 movie collector's edition on DVD, basically making it the end-all, be-all for Star Wars fans. Again, that is rumor. I pray its a true one though. :)

The reason I didn't get miffed so much in the theatrical release is because I succumbed to temptation and after avoided all spoilers on EpII for 2.5 years, I read the graphic novel first, then got the novelization. So what many were confused or annoyed about in the film, I had read the origical uncut scenes and had a grasp of the emotions and mindsets behind each scene.

Episode II's problem isn't so much bad editing (though it didn't help) as that Uncle George went for a VERY atypical approach for his romance, and as far as the general audience is concerned, it flopped. First Love spiced with Courtly Love just isn't going to fly with modern audiences, and for good reason. I'm not trying to make myself sound more cultured or high-minded here, I just happen to have very odd tastes. Partly because I was cringing for most of the movie, as Anakin reminded me of myself at age 16 sans force powers and the traumatic murder of my mother.

Unlike alot of people I identified Anakin and Padme, because quite frankly my first real love interest kept alternating between putting me off and being drawn to me until finally, when it looked like she was going to have to leave, she all but declared her undying love for me, then managed to stay, and our "relationship" shortly thereafter spiralled into a rather messy obliviion.

Trust me, the Anakin/Padme romance isn't as corny and unbelievable as it looked....

I don't believe I just explained a portion of my early love life to a message board of Star Wars fans.... *sighs*

Shadowdeep
3 August 2003, 05:22 AM
First off, I'll say that I like the psychonalysis approach, and find the theory of Anakin manipulating Padme w/ the Force to be really interesting. However, in the end, I think the romance *is* an attempt to capture the First Love/Courtly Love theme as was described. My reason is that Star Wars is a modern kind of fairy tale, and love has been handled this way (to a degree) in fairy tales. It's very idealistic, and naiive, and probably un-natural to a modern audience (unless they can remember Snow White, Cinderella, and so forth ;) Personally I think that, despite GL's intention (if indeed it was this) he didn't succeed in bringing this theme to the viewers. It is difficult to swallow, not so much because of what it is (fairy tale romance), but because it was written/directed/acted/edited/etc so ineptly (IMHO) as to kill the idea.

The reason I liked Ep2, despite cringing in obvious places, was that I tried to watch this *knowing* that it is a fairy tale. It is a fundamentally different movie when you see it like this rather than looking for a deep and mature exploration of realistic people. GL works with archetypes, not characters (IMO) so his tendancy to paint with a very large brush tends to muddle up details and nuances when he wants to go there.

VixenofVenus
6 August 2003, 09:20 AM
My opinion ...
- Anakin influencing Padme with the Force, interesting ... yet unlikely. GL tends to stick to the traditional when it comes to things like "Love". He is a huge subscriber to the shakespearian ideals, and as such, the Star Wars Saga is truly shakespearian when it comes to the story in a broad view.

Anakin and Padme are GL's "Romeo and Juliet" ... but with a space opera twist. They are in a sort of "FIRST LOVE" that is the kind of "crush-like" love that teens feel when they first fall in love. It isn't the deeper love that people in their 20s and beyond fall into. They really couldn't care less about the other person's thoughts, aspirations, etc. They are lusting for one another, and they THINK they love each other, but neither of them really know the other ... so how can they really love one another. That's my take on the situation.

- Personally, I think Anakin's fall is inevitable (even if I hadn't seen the original trilogy or knew it existed). He is so uncontrolled and emotional that it puts his whiny son to shame. Luke was 1000 times more controlled than Anakin when you compare either ESB or RotJ with AotC.

I can tell you this ... Anakin will fall and it will suprise us all when the circumstances of his fall are revealed. We may have suspected them, but they will still suprise us.

MINI-RANT: One thing I really hate is that I have a cousin who knows tons about Star Wars, but he thinks that the reason Anakin finally falls is because Dooku kills Padme, then Anakin falls while killing Dooku, and then Obi-Wan tries to calm Anakin down, but he is so enraged that he fights with Obi-Wan, and then is injured and forced into the suit, which Sideous puts on him.

Well, my problem with that little explaination is: LEIA KNEW HER MOTHER!! HOW CAN PADME DIE?!!

Valoy_Muniz
6 August 2003, 12:02 PM
Well, my problem with that little explaination is: LEIA KNEW HER MOTHER!! HOW CAN PADME DIE?!!

THe only thing about that is how old where they when that happend. If they are keeping there marrage a secret then it could be mounths maby even years between times they can see eachother (rember he wanted to see her and his mom for 9 years before seeing them again). I do not know how it will happen and I do not think it will be the way your cousan said but it is at least possible.