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CyborgJedi
1 August 2003, 07:20 AM
I've been looking at these boards for a few days and i gotta ask

Whats with all the jedi hating. "Jedi overpowered?" " Jedi bating." "Jedi Hunter."

Jedi are so cool so why do people hate em so much?

Grimace
1 August 2003, 07:36 AM
Moving to Rants and Raves forum.

wolverine
1 August 2003, 07:48 AM
I think a lot of it stems from when we GM, and have one or 2 jedi in the group, for what ever reasons, they tend to overshadow all the other players. If we have gaming sessions where the others are the focus, and the jedi or the force itself, takes a back burner, these 'jedi' ◊◊◊◊◊ and moan. I know i have had a few like this.

It might also be that compared to other characters at the same levels of improvement, jedi characters, with using a specific 'pool' of force powers become too over powering. To a point where you have to put npc's in there which would kill nearly every other character you have, just to challenge the jedi character(s).

other than that, i can't come up with anything.

dgswensen
1 August 2003, 09:42 AM
Well... personally, I think the Jedi ARE overpowered. The makers of the RPG are in quite a bind where this is concerned. Look at TPM and AotC... the Jedi can deflect blasters with ease, send people flying with the point of a finger, and hurl themselves out of moving airspeeders to land safely many stories below... on another moving aircar. Non-Jedi can't even come close to doing this kind of thing.

Most game systems have a very delicate balance among character classes. In old 1st edition D&D, the mages, who had spells, couldn't use armor or anything larger than a dagger -- period -- and the rules they came up with to justify this were fairly ridiculous in nature. But it was their attempt to make all the character classes roughly equal in terms of appeal.

In the Star Wars RPG, just by nature of the kind of universe you have, you have one class -- the Jedi -- who possess an entire library of abilities that non Force-users can't hope to touch. And thus it is very easy for them to overshadow other characters.

They are overpowered compared to normal people, and IMHO they need to be, because that's the way the story is. But that can upset some people because it defies the notion of game balance, which is very important to some players and GMs.

Dashdar
1 August 2003, 10:11 AM
Ö.Begin rant

My hate of Jedi started before I started playing the SW RPG. I have always preferred a scoundrel or soldier like character, like Han and WEDGE! I think the force is cheap.

Woo hoo Iím Luke Skywalker. I can fly loops around ppl b/c I use the force to help me.

Hi, Iím Wedge. I am just that darn good.

I even hate the force in books. I dislike the NJO books and also try as hard as I can to not use force powers in JK II.
The force just leaves me filling empty inside. I would rather make something happen b/c I was skilled/lucky enough to do it on my own. Not b/c I had the ability to call on some sort of magic to help me do it.

Thatís why I hate Jedi.

End rantÖ.

Dr_Worm
1 August 2003, 11:23 AM
Hate is a strong word, I do not hate Jedi. However two things make them less attractive to me:
1) They are a dime a dozen. Almost all new players want to play Jedi, and many veteran players still wiould prefer to play Jedi. This makes them so common as to be dull. I did an open enrolment for a PbP game and 90% (9 out of my 10 replies) wanted to play Jedi. After a adjusted the game saying that it would only have one Jedi in it, and said that there were no more open slots for jedi, I STILL got character submissions for Jedi.

2) They are more powerful, level for level, than any other class. Now this can be compensated by forcing players to stick to the Jedi code pretty strictly, but it is still present. Sure, as you pointed out in another thread, Jedi are presented in the movies as combat gods. However there is much to be said for game balance over following of canon. There in lies the reason some of us twak the Jedi classes a bit to make them fit in a mixed group.

If my game will logically support a Jedi PC or two I will not tell the players that they cannot play them. However I expect to see an interesting and unique Jedi concept that I have not seen a thousand times already. I also tell them right out that the Jedi code will be followed as I interpret it, and straying from it will get them kicked out of the order, there by not allowing anymore Jedi levels. Also DSPs will be given for what I deem a dark act, and I will take away a character if that character gets too many DSPs.

Darth Fury
1 August 2003, 01:25 PM
The foolish Jedis are blind to the power at their finger tips and put ridiculous restrictions on themselves to limit their own power they are weak and ignorant and deserve nothing more than a pianful death at the hands of a true master of the force Palatine.:D ;)

Nova Spice
1 August 2003, 01:54 PM
I even hate the force in books. I dislike the NJO books and also try as hard as I can to not use force powers in JK II.

This statement is almost a paradox in nature. If you hate the Force, then'd you'd love the New Jedi Order. One of the central themes is the Jedi not being able to use the Force against the Yuuzhan Vong.

As you may know by now, I happen to think the NJO is the best thing to happen to Star Wars; just a notch below the release of the prequels. It is the ultimate Star Wars tale and is far superior to every other novel, on par or even better in terms of story than even the highly touted Thrawn trilogy.

As far as Jedi go, it's hard to balance them out with the other characters. The only way of doing it properly is to allow the non-Force using PCs to have significant advantages over the Force-users in many situations. That comes from good role-playing and a dedicated GM.

Seghast
1 August 2003, 02:00 PM
I don't hate or dislike Jedi, but they can be very problematic in a campaign as their power grows...

We have several Jedi in our campaign, and most are weak beginners, struggling to stay alive against even stormtroopers. Then there are the two powerful Jedi, and the mid-level...

The mid-level Jedi (6d sense/control 5d/alter) is usually left behind at the base. Thanks to the character's personality, it's no problem excluding him from missions. He's meditating or working out while the rest of the characters are off fighting for their lives.

The two strong Jedi (one is at 7d+2 c/s/a, the other at 9+2 c/s/a) are more of an issue. They make the missions way too easy because of their strength. Worse still, their personality doesn't make it logical for them to refrain from going on missions like the other.

Trigger and I both GM, him more than me, and we can agree that they're too powerful. When I run a game, I try my best to give the Jedi reasons to not go on the mission. Trigger allows it, but makes difficulties for Jedi obscenely high. Example: a telekinesis roll of 30 and up will lift an X-wing, but my roll of 100+ (i think it was 107) was barely enough to lift an X-wing-sized stone statue and move it two feet.

We've finally seem to hit a compromise, though. His Jedi, the 7+2 one, is busy learning how to forge armor and weapons, and often has to stay behind on missions to continue his work. My Jedi, as befitting his personality of having fun, has cut way back on the use of the force in favor of making things more exciting for himself, and getting a good laugh (he's barely 18, what can you expect?).

All the players agree that the Jedi are killing the campaign in general. We've talked about choosing an era for the next campaign that has little or no Jedi, such as Rebellion Era.

I think it's situations like these that make so many people on the boards here dislike Jedi. Weaker-Jedi aren't much of a problem (for a while), but after a while... Well, after a while, it's just about time to consider starting a Rebellion/Rise of the Empire Era campaign, and *dare* a player to try and use a Jedi...

Sasche
1 August 2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Dr_Worm
... They are a dime a dozen. Almost all new players want to play Jedi...
I think this is one of the things I "rant" about.

Sure, Lucas's stories (the movies) focus on Jedi. And they are unique to the SW universe. But, what many players don't choose to notice is how even Lucas himself tries to indicate the ratio of Jedi to Non-Jedi in the population. Jedi are very rare in the galaxy. Even Force sensitive people are shouldn't be a dime-a-dozen. But, it seems that everyone wishes they were.

I'm not saying that every RPing group shouldn't be "allowed" to have a Jedi as a member. They are "heroes" after all. But, ignorance to the actual rarity within the population is what irks me.
Also, Jedi should be acting under the code. This means that there might not be "hard and fast" rules which limit the PCs. But, the limitation should exist which are controlled mainly by roleplaying.

Lucas and most of the other sources are pretty clear about the Jedi not letting their own run around wild. The Code even tries to discourage using the Force at all if possible! Even the NJO series addresses the rift between Luke's and Kyp's philosophies. But IMO Kyp doesn't even hold a candle to the antics which other "Jedi" on these boards claim to do.

Also, dgswensen put it well:

Most game systems have a very delicate balance among character classes. In old 1st edition D&D, the mages, who had spells, couldn't use armor or anything larger than a dagger -- period -- and the rules they came up with to justify this were fairly ridiculous in nature. But it was their attempt to make all the character classes roughly equal in terms of appeal.
In the Star Wars RPG, just by nature of the kind of universe you have, you have one class -- the Jedi -- who possess an entire library of abilities that non Force-users can't hope to touch. And thus it is very easy for them to overshadow other characters.
I agree that the original source material (movies) Jedi are very powerful. Maybe more powerful than the average man.

But, the other hero classes should NOT be average. They are also hero classes.
So, the imbalance of Jedi (versus other PC classes) is my beef. Not that Jedi are overpowered against the common man.

And finally, I have ranted previously because I was tired of the posts which consist of Power Gamers (or min-maxers/munchkins - take your pick) who figure out the new race, Feat, or PrC combination which creates a Jedi who wields 8d8 damage with a critcal range of 8-20.
Yes, that's right 65% of the time, the Jedi will ignore VP and go directly to WP and deal an average of 36 pts of damage.

Faraer
1 August 2003, 03:14 PM
During the Old Republic and Rise of the Empire eras, Jedi almost never travel with non-Jedi over a long period. In the Rebellion era, if you're keeping to the intent and meaning of the movies, there aren't any spare Jedi to be PCs. I don't see why you'd often have Jedi and non-Jedi in the same group anyway, unless for some reason you specifically want a mixed group, which is just a convention of D&D.

Dashdar
1 August 2003, 05:41 PM
This statement is almost a paradox in nature. If you hate the Force, then'd you'd love the New Jedi Order.

I actually hate the NJO books not so much b/c of the Force but because of the Vong. I just find them too Borg like and un Star Wars. Other wise I dislike the fact that there are more Jedi and that the Jedi and the Force are key parts to the series.

My favorite books have been the Han Solo trilogy and the X-wing books.

Sirch Akoras
1 August 2003, 05:58 PM
I don't hate Jedi or anything (I want to have a Jedi character sooner or later, but I'd rather not have it as a main character or anything.)

Just, to me, you can't be as creative with a Jedi- everyone knows they can do darn next to anything.

Once I did a single adventure just getting used to RPing, and there was a big chase scene. My character was a soldier with the highest dexterity you'll ever see (although I think my mentor wasn't the smartest, as I think it was TOO high). Anyway, I was chasing a Jedi on some rooftops, then he jumped down- 20 stories, he landed and ran off.

I looked around, assessed the situation, took out my grapple spike launcher and rolled a high score on my dexterity check. I grappled an airspeeder, jumped down and swung for a little bit, then did a little flip just for fun and landed beautifully. I actually did so well that the onlooking people in the crowd showered me with credits (again, uneducated, I don't think credits can be showered on someone... maybe, though).

A little later I had lost the Jedi. This time I rolled a perfect score and got dragged about 5 meters off the ground. Such a great score that I jumped off and landed right on the guy I was chasing.

Now, as a Jedi, if you're THAT good with a grapple spike launcher then you might as well take over the galaxy on your own. At least in my opinion (Jedi aren't supposed to be good with blasters or blaster-like weapons).

wolverine
2 August 2003, 12:40 AM
TO give it into a perspective.

The Ongoing Sparks force 7 campaign of D6 starwars, is set in the rise of the empire. Sparks module #1 is set 10 years exactly before Starwars A New Hope. Every new module made, advances the time line 1 month. There are jedi hunters out there.

When a player first makes a Jedi character, he (or she) IS warned that there are jedi hunters out there. We have several ratings. The first time in a module a Jedi character rolls above 40 on any force skill, or when using any normal skill enhanced by the force (concentration!!!), he or she is now known to the Jedi hunters of the Empire.
Once he or she is known, the next time he or she rolls above a set target number (which drops by 5 every year, currently at 30), they have triggered Force vision #1. The second time in THAT module they hit said target number, they get Force encounter #1. The third time in that module, (or the first time in a module After they have had encounter #1), they trigger force vision #2. Then the second time in that same module they hit the trigger number they get force encounter #2. And so on and so on.
Force encounter 1 has one FULL 12 man storm trooper squad and 1 dark jedi. Force encounter 2 has 2 full squads, + extra troopers for the heavy weapons, a more powerful jedi and a royal guardsman/dark side apprentice. Force encounter 3 is harder, and the final one is against Vader himself. If you get that far, you have 2 options... TURN or DIE!

Because of how hard these can be on the other players, the GM has to give a warning to the other players on whether they wish to participate in the encounter, or whether they wish to leave the activating jedi to his own demise. THose who DO choose to stay and help get more CP. And yes, we have had a number of deaths / capturings due to these.

But even with the above, the predominance of players wishing to be jedi is great.

One of the modules, in which i was the lowest sheet numbered NON force user, all of us non force users literaly took a back seat to the 2 force users, even though they were 2 full sheets lower than even ME!. Just because of their force powers.....


For note; sheet break down:
Starting character to module #7played = sheet 1
Modules 8-14 played = sheet 2
Modules 15-21 played = sheet 3
Modules 22-28 played = sheet 4
Modules 29-35 played = sheet 5
Modules 36-42 played = sheet 6
and so on and so on.
Each module played is worth an average of 7-8 CP (most modules are a base 6 or 7 CP + 1 from good rping) so each full sheet is roughly 50cp.

The Ghost
2 August 2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Dashdar
I actually hate the NJO books not so much b/c of the Force but because of the Vong. I just find them too Borg like and un Star Wars. Other wise I dislike the fact that there are more Jedi and that the Jedi and the Force are key parts to the series.


YES! gods forbid a Star Wars book has Jedi or the Force in it! What were they thinking?


Originally posted by Sasche
I'm not saying that every RPing group shouldn't be "allowed" to have a Jedi as a member. They are "heroes" after all. But, ignorance to the actual rarity within the population is what irks me.
Also, Jedi should be acting under the code. This means that there might not be "hard and fast" rules which limit the PCs. But, the limitation should exist which are controlled mainly by roleplaying.

Lucas and most of the other sources are pretty clear about the Jedi not letting their own run around wild. The Code even tries to discourage using the Force at all if possible! Even the NJO series addresses the rift between Luke's and Kyp's philosophies. But IMO Kyp doesn't even hold a candle to the antics which other "Jedi" on these boards claim to do.

I have ranted previously because I was tired of the posts which consist of Power Gamers (or min-maxers/munchkins - take your pick) who figure out the new race, Feat, or PrC combination which creates a Jedi who wields 8d8 damage with a critcal range of 8-20.
Yes, that's right 65% of the time, the Jedi will ignore VP and go directly to WP and deal an average of 36 pts of damage.

Our game has a few Jedi, i play one of them. This is actually dual-use for me. for one it allows me to flesh out the character i've created even more and find out more about him. and secondly it allows me to pressure the other Jedi PCs into behaving by the rules. Thankfully, i don't have to excercise number 2 that often.

The people who would have trouble following the rules of being Jedi, NEVER PLAY THEM. that's right. i'm gifted with a group that realizes when they don't want to play by the rules, they don't pretend to be Jedi. a pity others can't do this. i suggest anyone just learning to play never plays Jedi, by the by. and for all you GMs with "problem Jedi" disallow those players to play Jedi. simple. easy. keeps things proper.

as for min/maxers, powergamers, and munchkins: Rocks fall, all die.

Dashdar
2 August 2003, 07:40 AM
YES! gods forbid a Star Wars book has Jedi or the Force in it! What were they thinking?

:) lol. I guess it's just not my thing.

Rogue Janson
2 August 2003, 08:36 AM
I dunno, liking Star Wars and not liking the Force is definitely a bit weird. It's like liking Lord of the Rings, but just not being very keen on the whole "one ring to rule them all" concept.
Even for non-Force sensitive characters, the Force brings together the 'heroic' aspects of Star Wars, heroic destiny, dramatic coincidence and stuff, even down to just 'having a bad feeling about this'.

As I see it, the problems with Jedi only occur in mixed groups, where Jedi can come out more powerful than other characters. I'm not talking about overpowered 1-20 crit type 'characters' - these are bad whether they're Jedi or not. The Force simply opens up lots more abilities for characters. Sure, they have to split between more skills, so they're rarely as good as normal characters at any one, but even being able to use Force techniques and Force skills untrained makes a big difference.

I can see how the Force can be seen as 'cheap' - no comlink? use TP. Dark? use Sense Surroundings. etc. But the Force can also be used very creatively.
(One of my favourite examples - in a refugee camp, a Jedi character played by one of my friends was challenged to a fight by a Neimoidian Tzar we'd deposed. Knowing he could win easily and not wanting to lose face, but not wanting a fight, he instead used Move Object to pull of the Neimoidian's clothes, to general hilarity.)

I don't see any reason a properly played Jedi, who adheres to the code, or even some variant rules of behaviour, should be annoying.

The Paths of the Force game I run is aimed at Jedi characters, but surprisingly, few people wanted to play them. In that game, I've actually made Force users more powerful, and Jedi even more powerful, with no apology to the players left out

Sasche
2 August 2003, 09:12 AM
I really like some of the examples of "good" Jedi PCs people have given. I wish to clarify that I don't hate Jedi. Or the Jedi class.
My problem comes from the specific examples of individuals who take advantage of the rules and such.

In my own campaign, we have 2 Jedis and 4 Non-Jedis. While there is potential for an imbalance due to a "mixed party", I haven't experienced any major problems.
I think most of the credit goes to the GM and the players playing the Jedi. With a few slip-ups here and there, they Jedi are staying with the code. They aren't taking advantage of their powers.
(If I had any beef with my friends, it was that they were becoming scaredy cats. Instead of standing up to fight the bad guy, and protect their unconscious comrade, the one Jedi instead runs into a simulator cockpit hoping to be able to "surprise" the bad guy. Meanwhile the bad guy takes out his aggressions on the poor comrade's body. Ugh...cowardice isn't one of the Jedi Tenets last time I checked...)

Anyway, I love Jedi in movies and books. But, I also love the entire galaxy that has been created for the SW stories. When I started playing the SW-RPG, I have gone the Non-Jedi route, this time. Next character could be a Jedi. Who knows.
But, I'll go into it knowing the WOTC "faults" behind the rules and do what I can to make the class as even with other classes as I can.

Dashdar
2 August 2003, 04:28 PM
Yeah Janson, my friends tell me that I must be the only Star Wars Fan that does not like the Force.

Actually, I donít think the character class is overpowered too much. The only problem in a game is to find someone that plays a Jedi correctly, which I must say that I have never seen. But I enjoy creating a background for my characters that makes them not like Jedi, or at least we wary of them.

Remus Lightforce
3 August 2003, 02:02 PM
Wow, all three of the topics mentioned were started by me. I feel so special.

In the rebellion era campaign I'm going to run, I'm going to make it interesting...

Each player creates their character. They choose everything. They can't create a Jedi Guardian/Consular/Adept.

Then, each player rolls a 1d6. If it lands on 6, they get the 'Force-sensitive' feat free, and can then multiclass into Adept, Consular, or Guardian. There will be no picking up the feat later, unless they find someone to train them in the force.

The reason for the 1/6 chance (way higher than it should be), is because Force-sensitive characters seem to be naturally drawn to the way of the hero.

------------------

On another subject, the Jedi in the NJO era don't even have many restrictions. Take Kyp Durron, he's still gaining Jedi levels, and look how well he follows the Jedi tradition. Luke's not going to banish someone for going a little gung-ho with the Force.

Any comments?

Poiuyt
9 August 2003, 12:37 AM
I understand that everyone wants to be a jedi, so I have them roll a % die....If the die is >95% then they have the potential to be one...like a way of guaging one's strenght in the force...that way they may real wanna be one....but they just can't....Like Bug in the Jedi vs. Sith comics by Dark Horse....it keeps them down.......:plokoon:


PS ok not everyone, but 9:10...

wolverine
9 August 2003, 05:49 AM
I don't have my players roll. I just decide how many 'jedi/force user slots i wish to have available, and let the players decide amongst themselves who wil get it.
5 or less players only 1 jedi slot.
6 or more, 1 (if rise of the empire/rebellion) or 2 (if After endor time) slots available.

Worked so far...

Rogue Janson
9 August 2003, 09:15 AM
I've never liked the idea of randomising or otherwise restricting Force sensitivity. If you do it for Force sensitivity, why not for rare alien species, or other rare traits. I wouldn't like to force my players to create a particular type of character.

Then again, I trust my palyers not to abuse the privilege. If they all kept creating Rebellion era Jedi Camaasi or something maybe I'd have to take measures.

Corran Horn
9 August 2003, 04:09 PM
I think that any character can be just as good as a jedi. There are plenty of ways to defeat one. Think about the empire, sure they had Darth vader but usually they would send in storm trooper squads.

Dr_Worm
9 August 2003, 04:43 PM
I guess for me it is not so much that there are ways ot beat a Jedi, it's that those ways involve masses of enemies most of the time, or vastly greater levels. Level for level, person for person there is no class that even comes close to a Jedi's prowess in nearly all areas, if the code is not empasized. If it is there is a closer measure of balance.

Remus Lightforce
9 August 2003, 07:13 PM
And as I've said, the Jedi Code is nigh irrelevant in the NJO era.

I know I'll get a number of responses about the dangers of the dark side, but that's not what I'm talking about. They're simply more free to be a bit less compassionate and more calculating than the Jedi of the Old Republic were allowed. Just read the NJO novels. I made a point of awarding DSPs to people in the books for my own amusement.

SPOILERS if the number of DSPs the characters have here inadvertently causes some sort of revelation. These are as of the beginning of 'Rebel Dream' (Where I'm currently at).

Luke Skywalker - 1 DSP
Mara Jade Skywalker - 2 DSPs
Corran Horn - 2 DSPs
Jacen Solo - 0 DSPs
Kyp Durron - 7 DSPs
Jaina Solo - 8 DSPs

Are Kyp or Jaina expelled from the Order by Luke? Nope. Do they stop gaining Jedi levels? Nope. Lean....

Jedi_Staailis
9 August 2003, 08:43 PM
Out of curiosity, where are Luke and Mara's DSPs coming from? I can see Kyp, Corran, and Jaina, but by NJO Luke doesn't seem like the type to slip up and earn a DSP.

Nova Spice
11 August 2003, 06:00 PM
Remus may be referring to when Luke smashed the holoprojector prior to the Jedi attack against the Vong fleet at Reecee. It was just after he felt Anakin die.

If that's the case, that's a poor cause for a DSP. Other than that, I cannot think of anything either.

As far as Mara, about the only thing I remember is when she and Corran jokingly talked about using Force Grip on Kyp in the Dark Tide series. Also a minor transgression IMO.

I'm interested in Remus verifying how and why they received their DSPs.

Jim Williams
11 August 2003, 08:10 PM
Then there was the time in one of the Dark Tide books Anakin squished a YV warrior with a "500 kg rock". Not sure if that's DSP material either considering he was protecting himself and Mara.

Vergere would definitely say not since his mind and emotions were clear when he did it...

Ardent
14 August 2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson
The Paths of the Force game I run is aimed at Jedi characters, but surprisingly, few people wanted to play them. In that game, I've actually made Force users more powerful, and Jedi even more powerful, with no apology to the players left out

Ironically, we seem to lean just as heavily on non-Force skills as we do on Force skills. I don't think Empathy or Telepathy has tipped any hands to us that we didn't already know thanks to Gather Info and Sense Motive.

In the NJO you're dealing with an infantile Jedi Order. There simply aren't enough Jedi Masters, Jedi Knights, Jedi students or Jedi candidates for ANY of them to be given up on. Luke has enough confidence in his tainted Knights to let them work things out on their own. As far as gaining levels goes: we don't know that. They may have been stagnant while dealing with their Dark Side tendencies. Luke is probably painfully aware that something caused the old Jedi Order to be blinded to their own demise, and is trying to avoid a similar situation...at least within his lifetime.

It's been made clear that both Jaina Solo and Kyp Durron are eminently redeemable characters. MOST of the NJO's Jedi Masters carry some taint of the Dark Side with them. Kam Solusar was a Dark Jedi Knight for a while before Luke encountered him. The NJO is an era of redemption, and that's a theme a lot of people completely miss. If a GM in the NJO era doesn't somehow stage an intervention for a Dark Side character, they've failed their role as GM. There are more than enough Jedi in that era who have literally "been there" for a redemption to occur. If the player or character is simply irredeemable, take the character away. Turn it into an NPC for the group to come into conflict with in the future. If the character was at fault, the player probably won't mind creating a new character. If the player was at fault, it's something you need to discuss with the player.

As Janson mentioned, saying you like Star Wars but not the Force is pretty silly. There's plenty of straight-up Sci Fi out there if that's the case. Go check it out. If I said I like Bladerunner but I'm not so fond of the idea of replicants people would look at me like I'm nutty. This is more or less the same reaction Star Wars fans will have for your attitude towards the Force.

Remus Lightforce
16 August 2003, 03:50 PM
I just dug up that piece of paper a bit ago, I can't remember where Luke's or Mara's came from. I'm about to start <I>Traitor</I> now, so that was a while ago.

Darn people keep hinting that Vergere is really important somehow...

Nazgul
28 August 2003, 10:30 AM
I don't hate the Jedi nor do I like them. What I do not like about them is their view on the Force, althought I do like Vergere's view on the Force.

Mara and Luke's are probably a remnant of their character's past. Both them did things to earn them in the past, and maybe they keep them as a reminder of past events.

Major T. Phennir
31 August 2003, 12:34 PM
I don't know if this has already been said but Jedi in the game can seem rather powerful but they aren't as powerful as they are in the movies and books. For example when Obi-Wan and Qui-gon are in the Trade Federation Battleship and fighting the destroyer droids, if that had been a role-playing game they would have ended up as a pile of chared flesh.