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JPValentine
6 August 2003, 11:11 PM
I just finished the first of the NJO books, Vector Prime, and was wondering if anyone else was put off by the ending. I am specifically referring to the use of shield ships to reflect the energy back onto the yammosk, causing the water to evaporate, and the planet to freeze into a giant ball of ice.

This all sounds nice, and I am not an expert on planetary climate, but to me it just sounds like an author/publisher's last ditch effor to put a happy ending on an otherwise very down first book. I mean... what they did was "Reflect the energy back onto the planet" to get it to freeze. Last time I checked, if you put an icecube under a heat lamp, it melted. Same goes for the Greenhouse effect we are feeling now. The planet is holding in more energy, increasing its temp; not evaporating more water, supercooling the oceans.

Just wanted to know if anyone else had similar thoughts.

JP

Darthspectre84
7 August 2003, 09:26 AM
If you want an explanation on how a planet was destroyed it was basiaclly the planet had no core and was essentially a ball of ice. NO core, no tectonic chnages, as seen with the fact that everywhere was water under the ice.

Nova Spice
7 August 2003, 09:44 AM
No need for the Spoilers tag, JP. Vector Prime is over four years old. We know Chewbacca dies. And fans of the NJO, such as myself, know just about everything that occurs in the book. It's hard not to; I failed to put it down.

As far as the energy being reflected back on the planet, I generally have ignored explanations. Star Wars is not science fiction; it's space fantasy. Can any of us explain why there's sound in space? Or why TIE Fighters explode in space? Nope. And we don't have to. This isn't Star Trek.

As far as I'm concerned, I thought it was a good strategy by Leia and Lando. I care nothing about the technicalities of it. And most people I think will agree with me. ;)

Wedge in Red2
7 August 2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84
Well the planet was basically a ball of ice nothing more. So.....and you just red it now :) i red it ages ago...still have it upstairs :D

Ummm, is there a point in there :raised: ? It sounds a lot like you're saying:
* The planet is a ball of ice (we know this, having read the book)
* JPValentine has just finished the book (we know his, as he just said it in his post)
* You read the book ages ago and have it upstairs (which, while we didn't know, isn't something I would have lost sleep over).

I could recite the old yada-yada about "if you don't have anything constructive to say...", but then I'd be damning myself to a certain extent. Please, just try to post if you have something meaningful to say on a subject. Posts that are essentially a few lines of drivel will get vaped quicker than a pair of skips.

J

Rogue Janson
7 August 2003, 02:26 PM
I don't know about the physics of it, but the fact it seems so strange probably means that it is scientifically plausible. While SW doesn't care a great deal about science, the likelihood of an author going "I know, we'll heat up this ice loads and then it'll get even colder" seems low to me.

I think some weird things can happen when liquid evaporates, along the lines of how refrigerators work, but I can't quite remember any details.

fury
7 August 2003, 06:43 PM
My initial thought on this from the first time I read it was something along the lines of Stupid Things People Do in the Winter.

Basically, to me, it was akin to that concept of throwing hot water onto a frozen windshield in the hopes of avoiding all that scraping. The best case scenario is that you trade a heavy layer of quickly thawed ice into less ice and a lot of steaming slush. The worst case scenario is probably a mist that would feel like dry ice to any biologicals in there, plus the prospect of a windshield cracking mightily; which may be an analogy you could pass on to anything in the field of the effect of the quick melting ice.

Then again, someone out there may just have a real live scientific explanation for this. I'd like to see it.

Dashdar
8 August 2003, 01:21 PM
If you must know, I was put off by this book. I think that the Vong are a horrible addition to the Star Wars. I find them to be entirely too much like the Borg for my tastes. I gave the NJO series one more chance and got half way through the second book and I have had enough. I just hate it all. Though, I guess it does not help that I don’t like the force of Jedi either.

Give me a goof X-wing or Han Solo book any day.

Just my thoughts.

Master Bob
8 August 2003, 02:49 PM
I haven't read it. I just skipped it and moved onto the 2nd one.

Nova Spice
8 August 2003, 03:28 PM
If you must know, I was put off by this book. I think that the Vong are a horrible addition to the Star Wars. I find them to be entirely too much like the Borg for my tastes. I gave the NJO series one more chance and got half way through the second book and I have had enough. I just hate it all. Though, I guess it does not help that I don’t like the force of Jedi either.

It's a shame , man. You honestly do not know how powerful this series is. I recently started a new thread in this forum titled: The Themes of the New Jedi Order.

The Vong are nothing like the Borg. The reason you have this impression is because they were so mysterious in Vector Prime. Nothing was known except for preliminary first reports. In fact, the first three books are all about trying to figure out who these invaders are.

I like Thrawn and X-wings and that too. But, I promise you (and I'd never lie to ya), that those books cannot carry a candle to the NJO. I've read every Star Wars book to date and the New Jedi Order is without a doubt, the pinnacle of what Star Wars EU should be.

And if you despise the force of Jedi, you should be even more pleased with the series. The Jedi have about as much an advantage over the enemy as a worrt has over a womp rat.

None of the other EU books explore the themes that captured us in the films. The NJO is refreshing in that it takes those themes and drives them further.

Like I said, if you only made it halfway through Onslaught, you never gave it a chance man. The end of Onslaught was a taste of how the series would develop. And believe me, it's far more powerful than Thrawn ever wanted to be. ;)

Dashdar
8 August 2003, 03:43 PM
The Vong are nothing like the Borg.

Maybe they are not a lot like the Borg. I just got that impression b/c of the hive like structure they seemed to have and the apparent ability to 'adapt' their gravity shields to lasers. Maybe more like the Borg and Species 8472 (though I don't know much about ST stuff) plus the entire immune to the force thing did not go over well with me.


pinnacle of what Star Wars EU should be.

What should Star Wars EU be?


despise the force of Jedi

You'd think that. But I don't b/c I just hate the Vong too. I prefer seeing a character doing something because of his skill/luck. The force just seem cheap to me. I have never cared for it, but I do have my own understanding of it and how it fits into SW which is why the Vong being immune to the force does not go over well with me.


None of the other EU books explore the themes that captured us in the films. The NJO is refreshing in that it takes those themes and drives them further.

Please explain further, this interests me.


Like I said, if you only made it halfway through Onslaught, you never gave it a chance man.

Recently, I have been thinking about finishing the book. But maybe you and I just differ in what we look for in a SW book.

Dashdar
8 August 2003, 07:13 PM
Dang it Nova, I just read your post on the Fav EU characters thread, and now I am going to have to read some more of them. :mad:
If you only hadn't brought up how great Wedge was.... :wedge:

Sigh

Nova Spice
8 August 2003, 07:24 PM
Dang it Nova, I just read your post on the Fav EU characters thread, and now I am going to have to read some more of them.

Haha! Well, I promise you that the NJO is definitely very powerful and very Star Wars. Wedge features prominently in Edge of Victory II: Rebirth, Star by Star, Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream, and Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand. He is also to be the main character in the upcoming novel, The Final Prophecy (the next to last NJO novel).


If you only hadn't brought up how great Wedge was....

I would apologize, but I'm not sorry! :D


Maybe more like the Borg and Species 8472 (though I don't know much about ST stuff) plus the entire immune to the force thing did not go over well with me.

This is a key to the series and it is soon to be explained in the final two novels. This is one of the NJO's many themes. Taking the Force and exploring it deeper.


What should Star Wars EU be?

Check out my thread: "The Themes of the New Jedi Order." I discuss this in great detail. Star Wars EU should be a saga, much like the films. Until the NJO showed up, this was not the case.


Please explain further, this interests me.

My other thread explains this further. Though I do want to warn you that spoilers are in it. Once you begin to delve into the NJO, you realize how everything has almost led up to this series and that the emotions and spirit from the films, that is lacking in other novels, is very much real in the NJO. That, and it takes Star Wars to a new level as far as symbolism, the Force, and the emotional themes in the galaxy far, far away.

I honestly do hope you finish the novels. I started with Vector Prime and haven't stopped. I plan on reading the entire series, from start to finish, after The Unifying Force comes out.

"Everthing I tell you is the truth."-Vergere, Traitor

fury
11 August 2003, 10:46 AM
As usual, Nova saves the day.

However, I do have to say this as I see it happen time and time again. If you see a thread about a topic you don't like, why go into it and then go further to post about how you don't like it...or in this case "hate" it?

Seriously, it's like knowing you won't like a movie so you go watch it and talk about how you hate it and ruin the experience for everyone else.

I'm glad you are finally willing to perhaps give the series a chance Dashdar, and I sincerely hope you will. However, if you don't like something, in this case the NJO, please don't run ragged over the few areas we fans have where people of contrary views do not espouse their venom at us.

The thread was disputing a technical detail, not to shred the entire series. There are plenty of other places for that I'm sure.

Just one guy's opinion, mind.

Dashdar
11 August 2003, 12:56 PM
Well fury, when I read the first post I did not make the assumption that only posts from people who liked the book or the series were the only replies wanted. The question was asking for the opinion of people who have read the book. My opinion happened to be negative.

Though, I will say that I did not address the specific example given in the question about the shield ships. I talked about how I was not only “put off by the ending” but the entire book, then said why.

I may not have replied to the initial question in full with my post, but I did respond to a portion of it, and I think that that makes my post relevant.

Perhaps I also decided to post on such a thread in the subconscious hope that someone, like Nova, would be able to give me reason to abandon my dislike. BTW I am about 1/3 of the way through the 3rd NJO book (Ruin) now and have bought the 4th one.

Wrote this kinda quick, hope it makes sense. :D
Thanks for the constructive criticism though.

Rogue Janson
11 August 2003, 02:16 PM
Since we've wandered off topic a bit I'm gonna post something I thought of at the start, but didn't put down.

Whether or not it's physically plausiuble, the ending of VP does demonstrate one of the problems of the NJO. That is that up until a certain point, the Yuuzhan Vong are on the ascendant, winning regular major victories against the good guys. To balance this out, the authors are forced to create smaller or temporary victories for the good guys. With a bit of tweaking Vector Prime could almost be a standalone books - some new aliens show up, they get kicked in, end of story. It is only when you read the next books you realise the victory at Belkadan is impressive but ultimately has few noticeable lasting effects.

Once the series gets past this, and the YV start getting seriously beaten ie. in the Rebel Lines booksit really starts to pick up. Or at least that's what I felt.

Darthspectre84
13 August 2003, 01:57 PM
I noticed that as well. When i first red Vector Prime i thought it might end up like the Black Fleet Crisis or Truce at Bakura where a powerful evil race comes but then disappears from the universe. I was happy to see that i was wrong :) and boy the galaxy got a huge whooping later and later. As Nova said, the usual theme of the other books is like "Use force, fight, win the day no one famous dies". But then you read Vector Prime and you see Chewbacca die! now that is impact. The Yuuzhan Vong managed to take out one of the biggest heroes of the Republic in their first attack.
And again as Nova Spice stated is that in the first 3 books you learn who these sinister invaders are. hehe.

Rogue Janson
13 August 2003, 02:10 PM
When i first red Vector Prime i thought it might end up like the Black Fleet Crisis or Truce at Bakura where a powerful evil race comes but then disappears from the universe.
lol, you wait 'till Force Heretic.
Have I said to much?

Darthspectre84
13 August 2003, 02:16 PM
I dont need to wait :) i got every NJO book upstairs so no waiting for me :D hehe. Stilll though the current Vong situation is not liek the beginning, they are still quite problem. Though they did make many mistakes....give me command of the Yuuzhan Vong fleets and i would have won the war ;)