PDA

View Full Version : More Yuuzhan Vong Gods?



Rogue Janson
16 August 2003, 09:40 AM
Ok, here are the Yuuzhan Vong gods we know of:
Yun Yuuzhan, The Creator
Yun Ne'shel, The Modeller
The Twin gods Yun Yammka, The Slayer and Yun Harla, The Trickster
The lovers Yun Txiin and Yun Q'aah
Yuu Shuna, The Pardoner

Some sources seem to imply there may be other Yuuzhan Vong gods, though these are never mentioned.

Basically there are only four serious YV gods. Yun Yuuzhan is on top of everything of course, but so much so that he isn't really worshipped individually, so Yun Ne'shel, Yun Harla and Yun Yammka are the main ones. Of the other three, only shamed ones care about Yuu Shuna. The lovers seem even less important, since they only seem to apply to YV carrying out forbidden affairs - something that rarely ever happens (unless there's a whole series of romantic NJO novels on the way). And presumably they don't have any priest sects devoted to them. Can you imagine meetings with the Supreme Overlord if the High Priest was a High Priest of love? There's also the issue of whether (mythically speaking of course) the two did anything before they became lovers. It really seems if you're only going to have 7 gods to waste 2 of them like this is a bit pointless.

I suppose between them Yun Yuuzhan, Yun Yammka and Yun Ne'shel cover creation, death and the shaping of life, which is a pretty broad range (roughly analogous to the 'big three' hindu gods). So what really sticks with me is how they then appear to have a few other silly gods who don't really do anything much. Even Yun Harla and deception is a bit of an odd and narrow choice for a major god.

Anyone else had similar thoughts or think there may be more gods that simply aren't mentioned?

BrianDavion
16 August 2003, 10:02 AM
there may well be other gods, but if so these gods are so minor they ain't worth talking about. the romans had a protective god for each house hold IIRC

Nova Spice
16 August 2003, 11:25 AM
Anyone else had similar thoughts or think there may be more gods that simply aren't mentioned?

Most definitely. I've often wondered if there is a Yuuzhan Vong god of law?

I would think that the Worker caste has a god as well. It seems that the Intendent caste is lacking a specific god as well.

We know that the Warrior caste has Yun-Yammka. The Priest caste has Yun-Harla. The Shamed Ones have Yun-Shuno. The Shaper caste has Yun Ne'Shel.

So, yes, I'm of the opinion that there are more gods that are not mentioned. ;)

Darthspectre84
16 August 2003, 12:34 PM
Actually Yun Txiin and Yun Q'aah are still quite prominent cause why name a fleet after them (Battle of Ebaq). And in Star by Star (i think) there was a Priest of Yun Txiin and Yun Q'aah, half his body was one male the other female.

Also i agree that the Intendants do seem that they dont have a god to worship but one must remember that out of all the castes the Intendants are fewer in number....and they dont have a warcry like the other three major castes. Personally i always thought the Shapers would be low numbers cause of the whole "cannot have a child" rule of theirs.

As for Yun Harla, she is quite highly regarded cause she is the exact opposite of Yun Yammka. Yun Yammka was pure brute strength which is why he is favoured by warriors. Yn Harla is cunning, there is a big difference. An example i can give to Greek Myths, there were two war gods there Ares and Athena. Ares was basically war, while Athena represented War and Wisdom.

As for other Gods :) well i dont think we might see some for a while cause with only 2 books left and of course what Nom Anor is organising in the lower levels of Yuuzhan'tar. The Jedi Gaint and that stuff ;)

Rogue Janson
16 August 2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84
Actually Yun Txiin and Yun Q'aah are still quite prominent cause why name a fleet after them (Battle of Ebaq). And in Star by Star (i think) there was a Priest of Yun Txiin and Yun Q'aah, half his body was one male the other female.
I'd say rather that the fleet groups were named after the lovers simply because there weren't any more gods' names to use. I don't remember that priest though, I'll keep an eye out for 'it' when I go back through SxS.


Also i agree that the Intendants do seem that they dont have a god to worship but one must remember that out of all the castes the Intendants are fewer in number....and they dont have a warcry like the other three major castes. Personally i always thought the Shapers would be low numbers cause of the whole "cannot have a child" rule of theirs.
I don't reckon the intendants should have their own god. For a start it would be the god of bureaucracy and administration, which sounds like something out of a Dilbert cartoon. It also fits their rather impious image.


As for Yun Harla, she is quite highly regarded cause she is the exact opposite of Yun Yammka. Yun Yammka was pure brute strength which is why he is favoured by warriors. Yn Harla is cunning, there is a big difference. An example i can give to Greek Myths, there were two war gods there Ares and Athena. Ares was basically war, while Athena represented War and Wisdom.
Hmm, it's an interesting comparison. Certainly Athena (particularly in her association with Odysseus) has similarities with Yun Harla. But Athena has a much broader remit than Yun Harla, covering not simply deceit and cunning but all wisdom, plus assorted other stuff.


As for other Gods :) well i dont think we might see some for a while cause with only 2 books left and of course what Nom Anor is organising in the lower levels of Yuuzhan'tar. The Jedi Gaint and that stuff ;)
I'd be very surprised if they suddenly mentioned any new gods at this point, which leaves us to speculate ourselves.

So, since we seem to have a bit of a consensus (well, four people at least), how about some speculation about what other gods there may be?

I'm not sure about a god of law - YV law seems to me to be covered under duty and honour, for which the Yuuzhan Vong are directly answerable to Yun Yuuzhan. The idea of a god for the workers seems sensible though, and since no-one really cares about the caste, it would be plausible that such a god hasn't been mentioned.

Marcus1020
16 August 2003, 07:43 PM
In the Battle of Ebaq, the Lover's respective battle groups were tasked with working in unison to flank the Republic forces. It's possible that the Vong commander who named them thought he was being clever by picking two gods that worked in unison as well...

I'd bet there are more Yuuzhan Vong gods, but we just havent seen them. Indeed Twiin and Qaah are fairly specific and not very important, I got the idea that they were alledged to have had some other duty and then got freaky with one another and that became their recognizable attribute. I could be wrong though.

I get the impression that all of the Vong gods, save Yuuzhan, were really more like what Christianity thinks of as angels. Yun Yuuzhan, according to Vong lore and all of that, used part of himself to create all of the other "gods", just like he created the cosmos and the mortals and all of that. If the Vong gods were created by Yuuzhan, well then I dont think that puts them on quite equal footing with the big-guy himself. So we have Yammka, who mirrors the Angel of Death...Gabriel, Raphael, various Voices of God, Seraphims, etc, each with various purposes and some get fairly specific. So I suppose it wouldnt really matter if you "wasted" a pair of gods on lovers...because they arent really gods like Yuuzhan is the almighty to the Vong, just sort of his underlings in the big worldship in the sky.

I'd agree with Jansen about any Vong god of law...

Nova Spice
16 August 2003, 08:30 PM
I get the impression that all of the Vong gods, save Yuuzhan, were really more like what Christianity thinks of as angels. Yun Yuuzhan, according to Vong lore and all of that, used part of himself to create all of the other "gods", just like he created the cosmos and the mortals and all of that. If the Vong gods were created by Yuuzhan, well then I dont think that puts them on quite equal footing with the big-guy himself. So we have Yammka, who mirrors the Angel of Death...Gabriel, Raphael, various Voices of God, Seraphims, etc, each with various purposes and some get fairly specific. So I suppose it wouldnt really matter if you "wasted" a pair of gods on lovers...because they arent really gods like Yuuzhan is the almighty to the Vong, just sort of his underlings in the big worldship in the sky.

Bad comparison IMO. In Christianity, we don't worship angels. The Vong worship each god in a different manner. In Christianity, there is the belief in one God.

IMO, I think there are stronger correlations between Islam and Hinduism. There is the word: "infidels" that the Vong love to use. That can be compared to Islamic phrasing. And the multiplicity of gods is most definitely associated with Hinduism. Though some will counter that it might closer resemble Shintoism, as well.

But Christianity is not one of the religions that is comparable with the Vong's. ;)

Darth_Cassed
16 August 2003, 08:45 PM
People, People, lend your ideas to me. This is your chance.

Admiral Atredies and I are writing the Net.Guide to Religion. I have already covered my Yuuzhan Vong article, and no, I will not disclose any information ;). However, if you guys have any suggestions, I am willing to listen and modify. Certainly I have already tinkered with the Vong hierarchy.....but while we're at it, more tinkering!

Suggestions?

Rogue Janson
17 August 2003, 05:43 AM
It's a bit surprising how little we really know about the Yuuzhan Vong gods, considering their importance to the society.

My knowledge of Hinduism is a little shaky (so forgive any errors) but I think the comparison with the YV religion is quite a good one.

Hinduism believes in one overarching god, but with many aspects and lesser gods. It features a 'big three' - brahma, vishnu and shiva - partly analogous to Yun Yuuzhan, Yun Ne'shel and Yun Yammka and a pantheon of lesser gods, with some (eg. maybe Ganesh) being more prominent than others.

I can't comment on Shintoism, since I know absolutely nothing about it; and I'd reject any comparisons with monotheistic religions - Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. - out of hand. It may be useful to relate the YV religion to ancient Greek religion, since that has some of the best known mythology. Another comparison that springs to mind is the Aztec religion, which I'm certain must have been prominent in the minds of the series' authors because of its bloodthirsty nature.

I think the pantheon of YV gods is probably still pretty limited, since we don't see characters referring to them when carrying out specific tasks. We can probably rule out some gods as well - a separate god of knowledge, for example (the supreme overlord asks "the gods" for knowledge).

Oh, another thing to think about is heresy. There may be some gods worship of whom is regarded as heretical, either simply because they are not supposed to exist, or maybe because of some terrible deed they have perpetrated. We know the YV believe in the concept of Evil, but they don't seem to have a god for it - it'd be interesting to speculate where they think it comes from (maybe a challenge sent by Yun Yuuzhan or something).

Darthspectre84
17 August 2003, 05:47 AM
Rogue Janson i think it was Star by Star, the book invovled the time when Tasvong Lah was a very dangerous presence. When they first think of the Twin Sacrifice. "it" (the Priest) was in that book.

Yun Yammka is the second god most worshippped after Yun Yuuzhan cause the Warrior Caste has got the largest population. And also you must remember that of all the gods only Yun Yammka has got an avatar in the Yuuzhan Vong bestiary....the Yammosk, which they revere cause its a physical manifestation of that god of theirs. And also they got a similar appearance ;) . Oh and you can say the Intendant Caste worships (to a small extent) Yun Harla cause you see the Intendants do alot of covert operations.

As for other gods, i think they would be overshadowed with the heresy that is building up. But that does not mean we cannot speculate :)
Well speculations i would say that these might come (basing them on Greek Myths)
There would be a god of the dead
god of the Hunt
Those are the only 2 i can really see cause you cant have one of the sea or thunder :rolleyes:

just saw Rogue Jansons post :) i would say that Yuuzhan religion is as he said a mixture of Aztec, Greek and Hinduism. I would not say Egyptian cause they believe in reincarnation which the Yuuzhan Vong dont believe in. Aztec i say cause the ancient Aztecs did human sacrifices in their ceremonies.

Rogue Janson
17 August 2003, 06:11 AM
I hadn't thought about avatars.
Shimmra himself suggests that Vergere is the incarnation of Yun Harla, indicating that the gods can incarnate themselves in physical/mortal form.

I don't know whether it's just me, but I can't really think of what the Yuuzhan Vong's beliefs about death and afterlife are. It may even be a religion without an afterlife - I had the idea a little while ago that the YV's insistence on pain might make death seem a pleasant release, even if it is simply an end.

I quite like the idea of a god of the hunt (in the sense of hunting people, not just animals) who'd probably be a subordinate of Yun Yammka.

Comparing too closely with Greek gods could be a little misleading because the Greeks had a load of other 'powers' - fate, furies, titans, muses, etc - who performed similar functions, and were sometimes even more powerful (fate in particular).


just saw Rogue Jansons post i would say that Yuuzhan religion is as he said a mixture of Aztec, Greek and Hinduism. I would not say Egyptian cause they believe in reincarnation which the Yuuzhan Vong dont believe in. Aztec i say cause the ancient Aztecs did human sacrifices in their ceremonies.

ooh, I'd forgotten about the Egyptians. I don't think they believed in reincarnation, at least not in the common sense and anyway Hindus believe in it as well, so it doesn't disqualify comparisons (and we're looking to combine religions anyway, rather than find the one most closely resembling the YV religion). I might go off and look up a bit of info about the Aztecs later, to see if it's useful.

Darthspectre84
17 August 2003, 06:25 AM
The Titans were before the Greek gods, and the Greek gods imprisoned them. :) so i would not say thet Titans are willing servants ;) and in case you are wondering yes i do have an interest in myths.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong belief in an afterlife....that is a difficult subject. Cause the once alive Commander of Domain Shai said that "Life is a preparation for death". Also it is seen that the Yuuzhan Vong hold great reverence for Yun Yuuzhan, that through his sacrifice the Yuuzhan Vong are born. But this does not explaion if the Vong have a Hell. Perhaps they see living as Hell. Cause Shedo Shai said that when you die you leave the shackles of life or something on that line.

oh and just remembered another incarnation of the Yuuzhan Vong gods is that they said that a Vua'sa beast was said to be the first Warmaster. Interesing isnt it? :)

ah and just found some stuff, the concept of Yun Yuuzhan sacrificing parrts of his body to make the universe is seen in Greek and Babylonian Myths. Except it was not a willing sacrifice heh. IN Babylonian it was the god Tiamat who was killed by the god Marduk and Tiamats death brought the waters, and the whole unverse. Something along those lines anyway ;)

Rogue Janson
18 August 2003, 03:02 AM
Interesting point from Conquest. I'd always assumed Yun Ne'shel was one of the major gods, since the Shaper caste is the highest caste, but it turns out she was a "handmaiden" of Yun Harla. Yun Harla tricked Yun Yuuzhan into giving her some of his secrets, then she passed them on to Yun Ne'shel. Or at least that's what Shimmra says; it might not be the standard version of the story.

Rogue Janson
25 August 2003, 12:09 PM
Rereading Star by Star today I found the priest Darthspectre was talking about. I'll quote it because it's interesting:

"Then you are saying the Solo children are twins?" The reader who asked this was Kol Yabu of the Undying Flame, a "half-and-half" whose burn melded body had been carefully shaped to appear male from one profile and female from the other. As an apostle of the Undying Flame, Kol Yabu worshipped the twins Yun-Txiin and Yun-Q'aah, brother and sister gods of love and hate and all things opposite."

He/she also says that the pair are interested in balance, and mentions the "Great Dance grow[ing] unstable."

So that explains why their love was forbidden quite neatly :rolleyes: but opens a load of new questions, like what exactly are the Undying Flame and the Great Dance.

The fact that they are gods of opposites and duality and of hate (which the YV seem to do a lot more than love) explains why they seem to have an undeserved prominence.