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Rogue Janson
19 August 2003, 02:37 PM
I've just been re-reading Vector Prime today and one thing struck me about the use of grutchins. There's no mention of how they work against shielded ships.

This actually came up in the NJO campaign I play in ages ago. We'd just beaten off some coralskippers and got attacked by a couple of grutchins. Ooh scary. The things caught up with us, attacked, and promptly crashed into our shields doing virtually nothing.

In VP, the falcon, despite being (presumably) fully shielded has a number of grutchins attack to its hull.

Now my guess is that the author was simply ignorant of the fact that starships have both ray and particle shields (hence grutchins don't really come up again). Has anyone else noticed this apparent problem?

Nova Spice
19 August 2003, 04:22 PM
I've just been re-reading Vector Prime today and one thing struck me about the use of grutchins. There's no mention of how they work against shielded ships.

Aren't XJ X-wings, A-wings, and B-wings considered shielded ships? That's what Kyp's Dozen was flying when they were first hit by Grutchins. And from what I read, they proceeded to ignore the shields and rip straight through the fighter squadron.

I would rule that if they are able to make a successful attack against a starship, they ignore shields and apply damage directly to the hull. That's my take on the matter.

mojo1701
19 August 2003, 07:14 PM
I think that that's what it says in the NJOSB: they ignore shields.

farr0095
20 August 2003, 02:30 AM
Actually, by the rules, shields do matter.


New Jedi Order Sourcebook pages 40-41:
If the grutchin and it's target are ever at point blank range to one another, the grutchin launches a touch attack against its target (bypassing the ship's armor bonus). A grutchin cannot launch this attack against a target with functioning shields.

I would say then, that either the Falcon did not have its shields up (ignoring ray-vs-particle debate) or the rules were so created simply for game balance. But, for in game, I think that provides an answer.

Rogue Janson
20 August 2003, 02:58 AM
originally posted by Nova Spice
Aren't XJ X-wings, A-wings, and B-wings considered shielded ships? That's what Kyp's Dozen was flying when they were first hit by Grutchins. And from what I read, they proceeded to ignore the shields and rip straight through the fighter squadron.
There were barely any of the dozen left by the time the grutchin were released (only two I think). I'm pretty certain their shields had been taken down by the time the grutchins were released, since the coralskippers had been pulling them away. Likewise in Force Heretic (the only other mention I can think of) they were used against an imperial fleet that had been beaten up a bit already and also, of course, used unshielded TIE fighters.

But there's still the Falcon and the refugee convoy to worry about.

So...
If grutchins do ignore shields: why isn't this mentioned in the NJOSB? how do they do it? and why don't other YV things do the same?

If they don't: why didn't the falcon have its shields up and why was the refugee convoy so scared of the critters?

I lean towards the latter option, and strongly suspect that it is a mistake in Vector Prime.

farr0095
20 August 2003, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson

So...
If grutchins do ignore shields: why isn't this mentioned in the NJOSB? how do they do it? and why don't other YV things do the same?

If they don't: why didn't the falcon have its shields up and why was the refugee convoy so scared of the critters?

I lean towards the latter option, and strongly suspect that it is a mistake in Vector Prime.

As I mentioned above, the New Jedi Order Sourcebook states that they do not ignore shields... in fact, they cannot target a ship that still has shields. Well, they can aim for it, but cannot attach to it until the shields are gone.

So, I'll go with a mistake as the likely culprit. Or, perhaps Han was having trouble with the Falcon again and the shields were offline. He could easily have been doing some maintenance check for one reason or another.

Wedge in Red2
20 August 2003, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Aren't XJ X-wings, A-wings, and B-wings considered shielded ships? That's what Kyp's Dozen was flying when they were first hit by Grutchins. And from what I read, they proceeded to ignore the shields and rip straight through the fighter squadron.


I'm not sure, Nova. From memory, the Dozen got hammered by plasma first, which took out a number of their members and probably vaped the shields of the rest. Not to mention the Dovin Basals (sp?), I think, ripped the shields off a bunch of them. Back before they learned to either a) expand the inertial compensators, or b) drop them then flick them back up again.

Jon

Vanger Chevane
20 August 2003, 01:51 PM
Grutchin can attack shielded ships, but until enough damage is done to the shields (via whatever mechanism the GM sees fit) to drop them, they cannot do damage to the hull.

If enough shield damage is done quickly enough, there's a "Fluctuation Gap" in the shields and a grutchin may be able to squeeze though it.


Same as any other attack, you have to penetrate the shields to get to the hull. However having a grutchin stuck inside your shields, yet outside your hull makes for very interesting choices.


Drop shields & throw the sucker off, hoping more don't get in.

Try to pound it to death by bouncing it between the hull & shields. (while incurring some damge to both)

Arm someone with a weapon & vacsuit, then put them out on the hull to deal with it.

Pray they're within one of the gun's field-of-fire & the gunner's quick enough to vape it.

Nova Spice
20 August 2003, 03:36 PM
Janson and Jon, now that I think about it, I believe you're both right. By the time the grutchins arrived, only Kyp and Miko were left. That being the case, I see the validity of this debate.

Also, as a side note, the grutchins released against the Imperial forces at Bastion probably did face shielded fighters. I'm sure that there were Skipray Blastboats, shielded TIEs (Advanced, Interceptors, and a few Defenders), and assault gunboats.

However, thanks for pointing out to me about the Dozen already being shredded by the time the grutchins arrived. I forgot about the preliminary skip battle.