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TuskenJedi
27 August 2003, 10:36 AM
Just a quick wonderance: at one point later in the series (i can't remember which book specifically) Shimrra orders all of the senior members of the government to produce another generation. He says this in reaction to the fact that nearly three-quarters of the YV total fleet had been destroyed by attriton and the battle for Coruscant. So everyone, including Nom Anor, Tsavong Lah, and all the other bigwigs all find mates. Was this, in anyone's opinion, just a throwaway in the story or will it have a higher significance? Tsavong Lah's son Kahlee killed himself in Dark Journey, so maybe a new Lah as Warmaster will have significance later on.....hmmm....

Remus Lightforce
27 August 2003, 11:22 AM
Unless the book series goes on for another 16 years, it's unlikely to have an effect on the story...

He just ordered all the warriors to find mates by the time they were 16. He's running out of warriors, and needs to breed more. It's not like they grow up much faster than humans, though.

Darthspectre84
27 August 2003, 12:00 PM
When i red the title i thought you meant what will the YV be like after the war. But in some way you can include that, with the heresy and all.

It was in Destiny's Way, Shimrra oredered that all warrirors find a mate (or one would be chosen) by the age of 16. One might think why dont they clone the warriors since they are masters of biotech but i think there are laws against that.

Rogue Janson
27 August 2003, 02:16 PM
Yeah, I would guess cloning sentient beings, even infidels, is probably one of the worst blasphemies (though for no other reason than that it's not done).

Kanner Ra'an
27 August 2003, 04:47 PM
Uggh, i dont think thats the reason at all. These guys breed, shape, and generally kill and mutalate every form of life. I think the reason they dont clone is because that cant generate the metal abilities. Look at all their other slaves and creatures. The ones created from scratch are non or semi sentient. More intellegant ones are usually slave races.

Rogue Janson
28 August 2003, 04:27 AM
Hmm. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to generate the mental abilities in clones.
The most creature we know the YV have cloned are the voxyn and they're not lacking in intelligence.

TuskenJedi
28 August 2003, 06:44 AM
Yeah, but they had to do the voxyn thing to A.) Kill Anakin and B.) tie in with Tahiri's whole "part-of-their-galaxy-part-of-ours" shaping. And arent the chazrack warriors basically good enough? they just implant everything they see and there you have it, insta-army. clones weren't really so far in the war, they just used captured refugees.

Kanner Ra'an
28 August 2003, 07:12 AM
Hmm. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to generate the mental abilities in clones.
The most creature we know the YV have cloned are the voxyn and they're not lacking in intelligence

The voxyn wern't cloned though, they were bred. The voxyn queen was the kind of merge of a feral xyn and a vornskr. The rest were just her offspring. No cloning neccessary.

Darthspectre84
28 August 2003, 08:05 AM
BUt i remember something written in that same book about Nom Anor carrying a cloning pod or something :?

Besides warriros would be outraged that something trying to imitate them. Its all about the pride basically. Not because of mental abilities. They have no problem with using other races for the goal. But to imitate a Yuuzhan Vong is blasphemy i would imagine. Look how wound up they are when they see YVH Droids. What makes them hate it more is that it is based on them.

Rogue Janson
28 August 2003, 11:56 AM
originally posted by Kanner Ra'an
The voxyn wern't cloned though, they were bred. The voxyn queen was the kind of merge of a feral xyn and a vornskr. The rest were just her offspring. No cloning neccessary.
No, the Voxyn are clones. I just reread Star by Star at the weekend - I can find references if you want.

But I can see where your confusion comes from - for some reason they needed the queen to clone the creatures (and only at the last minute did they think of taking some tissue samples, which is what DarthS is talking about).


originally posted by TuskenJedi
Yeah, but they had to do the voxyn thing to A.) Kill Anakin and B.) tie in with Tahiri's whole "part-of-their-galaxy-part-of-ours" shaping. And arent the chazrack warriors basically good enough? they just implant everything they see and there you have it, insta-army. clones weren't really so far in the war, they just used captured refugees.
I think you've missed the reason for the Voxyn. The point of the voxyn is as a means of hunting down and killing Jedi, not creating an army. I think their creation is fair enough when you think about a few things: 1) the YV want to hunt Force users; 2) the YV are blind to the Force so can't tell who is a Force user; 3) there are creatures that hunt Force users. The creation of the voxyn is a logical step from there.

Now what is a bit suspect as a plot device, as I mentioned above, is the whole 'kill the queen' thing.

Wedge in Red2
29 August 2003, 12:15 AM
Janson's right. I too have just finished Star by Star, although for the first time, and it specifically says the Voxyn are clones. That's how the Jedi work out there's a queen, because Cilghal realises the DNA in different voxyn are identical, that they are clones.

My take on the whole issue is this: Star Wars is Space Opera, not Science Fiction. Science does not have to work logically in SW. Take the entire sound in space argument. I think it's a case of there being no internal consistency, largely because you have a huge series of books being written by a large number of writers. While they can work consistency into the main plots, they can't ensure every little detail is correct.

Jon

Kanner Ra'an
29 August 2003, 05:22 AM
Sorry, my bad. I coulda sworn they were bred, otherwise why have a nest? Oh well.

Darthspectre84
29 August 2003, 05:51 AM
They were in nests cause they Voxyn thought they could breed. So they made nests. Something on a genetic level....the need for survival of the species.

TuskenJedi
29 August 2003, 07:12 AM
I thing that Rouge Janson is right about the queen as the plot device. If they were, as is decided, clones, then why does it matter if you kill the queen? Cant you just take tissue from an existing voxyn and clone it that way? That way, Anakin wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself (still sore about Del Rey killing off Anakin, argh.)

Wedge in Red2
29 August 2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by TuskenJedi
(still sore about Del Rey killing off Anakin, argh.)

Ditto. And yeah, agree with that logic - if the DNA is identical, you should be able to clone off any of the voxyn. I seem to remember some nonsense about degeneration of the quality of the DNA or some such, but I'm pretty sure that was from some other movie (maybe that 6th day one with Arnie). I'd tend to agree, it's a plot device, and a fairly crappy one at that.

Jon

Rogue Janson
29 August 2003, 09:23 AM
originally posted by TuskenJedi
Cant you just take tissue from an existing voxyn and clone it that way? That way, Anakin wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself (still sore about Del Rey killing off Anakin, argh.)
Yeah, but on the downside you'd have increasing numbers of voxyn running round killing Jedi. So there is a downside. ;)

Jaggard
29 August 2003, 12:07 PM
I haven't read it so pardon any errors but has it occured to you that because they won't use tech they have to find another way of cloneing. So maybe just maybe the queen is an organic cloneing vat. no tech just a predator that has been altered to duplicate lesser versions (unable to clone themselves) that are jedi hunters.

Talonne Hauk
29 August 2003, 03:34 PM
The voxyn aren't really clones. The queen hatches them from herself. Since there was no sire, there is no genetic drift, and the DNA is identical. That's why it was necessary to kill the queen, so she couldn't breed any more duplicates of herself.

CaamasiJedi49
30 August 2003, 03:24 AM
Another point everyone missed, is that cloning a clone of a clone of a clone, ect, will lead to a genetic breakdown. That is why you would new the queen, because the dna would basicly destroy its self after being cloned so many times. Thats also why they need jango for more dna smaple's in the AOTC, so that they could keep getting fresher, and more reliable, dna that wouldn't fall apart on them within a few generations. But I may be wrong, but im pretty sure this is a major reason why they don't just clone voxyn from voxyn. Enjoy.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

BrianDavion
30 August 2003, 07:56 AM
you can clone from a clone but the original IS perfered. but yeah I imagine cloneing is a bit like photocopying, and an original is always the best thing to photocopy from

Wedge in Red2
1 September 2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Wedge in Red2
I seem to remember some nonsense about degeneration of the quality of the DNA or some such, but I'm pretty sure that was from some other movie (maybe that 6th day one with Arnie).



Originally posted by CaamasiJedi49
Another point everyone missed, is that cloning a clone of a clone of a clone, ect, will lead to a genetic breakdown.

Um, no, I don't think everyone missed it. As you can see from my quote, I did mention the degeneration of the DNA :).

Jon

CaamasiJedi49
1 September 2003, 02:05 PM
Sorry Wedge, I guess I made a mistake there.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

Talonne Hauk
1 September 2003, 06:11 PM
Except we're not talking about cloning, we're talking about homeogenesis, self-replication. The Voxyn queen was making exact duplicates of herself (itself?), but they weren't viable. There was no genetic drift. They simply couldn't reproduce. Cloning them would be fruitless, since they weren't able to duplicate themselves. As far as my knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong is concerned, I don't think they do employ cloning as we know it. They grow their bio-tech through selective breeding, not through replication. This makes the incidence of twins all the more special to them, I believe.

Darthspectre84
2 September 2003, 04:22 AM
Ah now that is an interesting point....that would explain why Shimrra said that ships can be grown but warriors need to be bred (in Destinys Way). But now after the victories they had they will have to rely heavily on slave species to fight in huge groups.

Wedge in Red2
2 September 2003, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Talonne Hauk
Except we're not talking about cloning, we're talking about homeogenesis, self-replication. The Voxyn queen was making exact duplicates of herself (itself?), but they weren't viable. There was no genetic drift. They simply couldn't reproduce.

Talonne,

You raise an interesting point. I'm not sure Star by Star ever touched on how the Voxyn queen was cloned/reproduced. The Jedi certainly came to the conclusion it was cloning, but they're not experts on YV tech. You'd have to think that even if it was self replication (as you claim), then the offspring would be able to self replicate if they were exact duplicates.

So, I think you're saying they're not exact duplicates, but that the Queen could create similar duplicates (which, I know, is a contradiction in terms) which all were genetically identical.

If this is the case, why did Nom Anor rush to get the cart full of genetic samples from the Queen (just before Anakin... um, you know)? Surely getting the genetic samples is evidence they (the Vong) could clone from those samples.



Cloning them would be fruitless, since they weren't able to duplicate themselves. As far as my knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong is concerned, I don't think they do employ cloning as we know it. They grow their bio-tech through selective breeding, not through replication.

I'd agree, it's not cloning as we know it (Sparti cloning cylinders). It's odd, because in most other instances the YV grow their "creatures" (like skips), and there is some genetic variation - I remember some skips being described as looking different, and there were those instances in the Dark Tide duology where Luke and Jacen found some "deformed" skips that had grown without viewports or something. So I agree.

However, as I think may have already been raised, the Shapers are able to do stuff that sounds an awful lot like cloning. Warmaster Tsavong Lah (sp?) had an extinct animal cloned, so that he might fight it, kill it, and have it's leg grafted onto his own to replace the one damaged in his fight with Jacen.

I think, as has already been concluded, it was a plot device. I don't think it is internally consistant.

If any of that makes sense ;).

Jon

Darthspectre84
3 September 2003, 05:02 AM
Perhaps its a hyrbid form of technology. Like maybe the Vong dont believe in cloning cause only the strong live. And they only use cloning to bring back long dead creatures....like the Vua'sa.
While everything else they modify to make them breed faster. Like you saw in Traitor how the Amphistaffs were grown. They like did not lay eggs of anything. Yammosks spawn.
So it is more likely is is more likely they make creatures with an increased ability to reproduce, the YV themselves would not want to alter themselves in sucfh a way. But remember when Noma Anor and Nos Choka met the hutts, the Hutt was pregnant and Nos Choka said "it is both male and female, like our lowest caste women"

Rogue Janson
3 September 2003, 09:19 AM
I think you're misremembering that quote DarthS. IIRC, Nas Choka actually comments on the fact that the Hutts bear live young, "like our lowest caste women." (actually, come to think of it, saying "it is both male and female, like our lowest caste women" is a contradiction :D)

Remus Lightforce
3 September 2003, 02:18 PM
Uhm, I don't think they said 'both male and female'. Ever. I think they were just referring to that only the lowest caste women have live births in the YV.

Darthspectre84
6 September 2003, 10:55 AM
Ah sorry then :o not red the book for sometime..*cough cough*...