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Nova Spice
29 September 2003, 05:45 PM
I just picked up The Final Prophecy by Greg Keyes. I'm about a hundred pages into it and finding it hard to put down. While I will not divulge too much information before completing the novel, I will say that the loose ends are starting to become attached. Characters from the previous novels are all coming around full circle into what looks like one hell of a finale.

And if anyone is interested, a certain CorSec officer-turned Rogue Squadron pilot-turned Jedi Knight is back in the main character's seat. It seems to me, that this novel may well be an unofficial Edge of Victory III. ;)

Rouge8
29 September 2003, 05:55 PM
One more still, right?

Dr_Worm
29 September 2003, 10:21 PM
And if anyone is interested, a certain CorSec officer-turned Rogue Squadron pilot-turned Jedi Knight is back in the main character's seat. It seems to me, that this novel may well be an unofficial Edge of Victory III

Well I may have to pick up a NJO book agian then. Though I may be lost and I am not sure it would be worth reading others so I could understand this one. However "that certain character" makes me tempted, and that is nice to hear. Thanks Nova

wolverine
30 September 2003, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the heads up Nova. I am eagerly awaiting my copy....!

One of the things i was thinking about that might be why it is called the final prophecy, was cause Yien nib finally get's the fourth courtex filled..

Nova Spice
30 September 2003, 08:09 PM
Warning! Spoilers Below! As if the thread itself hasn't warned you! :P



After finishing The Final Prophecy, I'm left with a profond sense of: "More! Please give me more!"

The Highlights:
-Some of the loose ends are brought together. References of Anakin's vision of Tahiri, way back in Edge of Victory I: Conquest, are addressed in the opening sequence of the novel. Characters such as Lensi, the Duro pilot in Rogue Squadron in Edge of Victory II: Rebirth, make a reappearance. We also experience the return of Corran Horn and Wedge Antilles to the main character slots.
-Nen Yim has discovered the secret of Zonama Sekot and of the Yuuzhan Vong. Unfortunately, she was unable to relay that information before being......eliminated.
-The Galactic Alliance seems to be making progress, as it recaptures Yag'Dhul, Thyferra, and Fondor. The final battles have been set up, thanks to strategies devised by Wedge, Traest Kre'fey, and Garm Bel Iblis.
-I really liked seeing Harrar return. He has been one of the more intriguing Yuuzhan Vong personalities. While he has only served as a main character in a few of the novels, I was glad to see him receive attention in this penultimate novel. Too bad Nom Anor killed him.
-Nom Anor. Will he ever die? Not bloody likely! I was intrigued to see him in the role as Yu'Shaa, the Prophet. However, his role as the Prophet appears to be over. His final prophecy made.
-I'm thrilled to see Corran in a position of teacher. Taking Tahiri as his apprentice seems oddly fitting.
-The subterfuge and character interaction between Corran, Tahiri, Nen Yim, Harrar, and Nom Anor (as the Prophet) was well done. While I'm even more curious about Zonama Sekot, I found myself greatly entranced by some of Nen Yim's knowledge. It seems that the Yuuzhan Vong have quite a legacy. The murmurings of the previous Supreme Overlord, as well as the Vong task force that originally discovered Zonama Sekot were enthralling.
-Tahiri's revelation. I think everyone will mark this book as the novel that explained the origin of the Yuuzhan Vong. Zonama Sekot is the long, lost homeworld of the Yuuzhan Vong. Who would have guessed? And it was right under our noses!
-I was glad to see the return of Pash Cracken to the Expanded Universe. Albeit a brief one. Another casualty of the Yuuzhan Vong.

The action in this novel was great. While Wedge and his task force ultimately failed at Bilbringi thanks to a new Vong bio-weapon, I found that the novel progressed the story enough for the final book. Corran and Tahiri's mission to Zonama Sekot ended with a cliff-hanger, particularly with Nen Yim's knowledge left unrevealed, but the pacing and intrigue grew page by page. I was really hoping for a showdown between Tahiri and Nom Anor. But the bastard escaped..........again.

So, now that we know the Yuuzhan Vong are from Zonama Sekot, new questions arise:

-Why does Zonama Sekot fear the Vong?
-How are the Vong "outside the Force" when the planet itself is an entity of the Force?
-Why does Shimrra fear Zonama Sekot's existence?
-Why do I have this strange feeling that the meaning of the words, Yuuzhan Vong, will answer all our questions?

Jedi Master Talon
1 October 2003, 06:44 AM
I can't wait to read this book. Escpecially with the Vong being from Zonama Sekot. Why didn't we guess that earlier?Though I do wonder what the new Vong Bio weapon is. It must very powerful. Though I love the fact Corran is a main character again because I missed his character.

BrianDavion
1 October 2003, 10:22 AM
I think there's gotta be more to it then the von g being from Zonama Sekot, there are a few things that... add up funny.

Solo666
1 October 2003, 12:15 PM
Sekot's final awakening was when the vong attacked right? So naturally it would be afraid. Yuuzhan is after Yun-Yuuzhan, so it must mean world... I wonder if Vong means "Searcher"?

Darth Fierce
2 October 2003, 03:47 AM
Interesting theory, Solo666. I'm not surprised that the Yuuzhan Vong are really from Zonama Sekot. I've had that feeling ever since I saw that the biotech of both the Vong and Zonama Sekot were remarkably similar.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
2 October 2003, 09:41 AM
I think there's gotta be more to it then the von g being from Zonama Sekot, there are a few things that... add up funny

I agree. And there definitely is. Zonama Sekot is bigger than we can imagine. It is the key to more than just the Yuuzhan Vong. Call me crazy, but I think that when Nen Yim discovered the secret of the Living Planet in this novel, she also discovered the secret to something else, something she had no clue about. The Force.

But because Nom Anor killed her, it's going to be damn hard for Nen Yim's revelations to be understood by the Jedi. Tahiri is the only one with any chance of possibly being able to comprehend what Nen Yim learned.

I just realized something. Nen Yim and Harrar were the only two Vong to show any sense of a possible conscience. I actually was hoping those two would defect to the Galactic Alliance. Now Nom Anor killed them both. I have to give the authors credit; they've really done a great job making me love to hate Nom Anor.

At any rate, the final book is perfectly set up. This novel's title served two purposes: The Final Prophecy gave us Yu'Shaa's final great act of deceit (or is it?) when he pronounced Zonama Sekot as the Shamed Ones "redemption." It also gave us insight into both Anakin's prophecy concerning Tahiri and Vergere's prophecy concerning the importance of Zonama Sekot. It appears that Anakin may be both right and wrong concerning Tahiri. While she hasn't slipped to the dark side yet, she has given in to her anger over Nen Yim's death. With Vergere's prophecy about Zonama Sekot being the "key to all the answers," I would say that this has been fulfilled. With the identity of the Vong's homeworld solved, we now know that Sekot is of the utmost importance to the Galactic Alliance.

Another fantastic novel for the New Jedi Order.

Eighteen down. One to go.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
2 October 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Master Talon
Though I do wonder what the new Vong Bio weapon is.

I think that the HoloNet seekers (the name evades me right now) are the new weapon that.

Did anyone else thing that the Dagobah scene was kind of rushed?

All in all it was a good book (but not close to the quality of the Enemy Lines Duology or SbS).

I just hope that the 544 pages that The Unifying Force gets are enough to wrap up the whole storyline. More and more I wonder what the missing 3 NJO books were going to be about.

Nova Spice
2 October 2003, 07:13 PM
Did anyone else thing that the Dagobah scene was kind of rushed?

Somewhat, though I think that the very fact that the authors returned to this prophecy by Anakin concerning Tahiri, was remarkable. You never know, Tahiri may very well return to Dagobah in the last novel.

Though I will admit that I wanted to see her go into the cave (if only for reading about her own personal hallucination). That would have been a nice scene for this novel. Too bad the Shamed Ones had to screw that up! :D


I just hope that the 544 pages that The Unifying Force gets are enough to wrap up the whole storyline. More and more I wonder what the missing 3 NJO books were going to be about.

Only 544 pages? I was informed that the last novel was going to be somewhere in the ballpark of 700?

As far as the missing three NJO books, I feel that when TUF is released, the NJO team should reveal what the Knightfall series was going to be about. I do wish we the series was longer and cannot help but be curious either, Frobi.


All in all it was a good book (but not close to the quality of the Enemy Lines Duology or SbS).

As far as my personal favorites, I'd put them in this order:
-Star by Star
-Traitor
-Dark Tide Duology
-Destiny's Way
-Enemy Lines Duology
-The Final Prophecy

All the others were good reads and quality novels, but I think the above are the shining books in the series.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
2 October 2003, 08:11 PM
Yeah, the cave really would have been nice to see again.

544 is what Amazon is listing for The Unifying Force's page-count.

Solo666
4 October 2003, 09:31 AM
A good season finale should be about 1000 pages, give or take up to 300. Unless Nom Anor, Jacen, Jag, Jaina, Luke, Danni, and Leia all die in the first chapter, I see no way it would only be 544 pages
unless that's not counting a large prologue and/or epilogue

wolverine
4 October 2003, 02:12 PM
I finished reading it this morning. I could not put it down, it was so captivating. I loved the beginning where Tahri made the promise to that shammed one.

As to nom anor, i am wondering if Shimmur is going to absolve him, or wait until he returns to kill him. I am also intrigued by whether Yen nibs thoughts and findings of the Vong/Sekot connection were absorbed into taheri and/or sekot itself...

Tramp
4 October 2003, 02:13 PM
I loved Final Prophesy . It's one of the best NJO books yet, and a good se-up to the finale. It's great to finally find out the origins of Zonoma Sekot being from the Yuuzhan Vong's galaxy, and in fact being their long lost home-world. It's no wonder that Shimra fears it so much. I can't wait to see Nom Anor get what he has coming to him. He's one of the best villains ever created. I can't wait for the finale.

wolverine
6 October 2003, 10:25 AM
Anyone have any ideas, thoughts or possible brain storms, on what the weapons the vong had to deal with Zonma are?

Solo666
6 October 2003, 10:57 AM
I just finished reading it-
I wonder what Zonoma Sekot means in the Vong language, didn't a shaper say they were "disturbed" by the name? I wonder...

BrianDavion
6 October 2003, 12:03 PM
my guess is their weaponry are chemical weapons so to speak. basicly huge weed eater cannons etc.

now the real question is... what happens when the vong start hauling out weapons particularily effective against them.. I could see the vong destroying themselves..

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:14 PM
Does the cave work fo non-Force? Maybe the Academy can move to Dagobah, or if it works on non-Force, I wonder if it will be important later
...Nom Anor goes into the cave, searching for the Jeedai infidel he is chasing, and comes across a field of corpses. He looks at them. One is Nen Yim, another Harrar. As he looks around, they rise around him. They are all corpses of those he killed, and Tahiri lurks cleverly behind one, using he Vongsense to see what he sees. As he begins to fear for his life, Tahiri's lightsaber flashes down on him. He doesn't die. Instead, his corpse turns to her. "One-who-was-shaped", it says, "lead the powers of death. Slay Shimmra and become Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong!" She collapses at the sight. Weeks later she is found by Jaina, starving and Dark, angry at the world and practicing the arts of the Dark Jedi...
I just wrote that off the top of my head. What do you think?

Tramp
7 October 2003, 06:26 PM
The cave only works on Force sensitives, not non-Force sensitives. This is revealed in one of the later threeJunior Jedi Knights books. I can't remember exactly which at the moment. One of Anakin and Tahiri's friends, who wants to be a Jedi, but isn't Force Sensitive, enters the cave, after the other two have their turn, and has nothing occur; no visions, no nothing. To him it's just a cave.

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:31 PM
What do you think of my little fanfic paragraph? If this works on Vongsensitives, too, then it may be used later on

Tramp
7 October 2003, 06:35 PM
Nope, won't work. The cavwe is a Nexus in the Force, specifically a corrupt one. It won't work with the Yuuzhan Vong, or Vong Sense.

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:44 PM
Nope, won't work. The cavwe is a Nexus in the Force, specifically a corrupt one. It won't work with the Yuuzhan Vong, or Vong Sense.

I still say Vongsense is part of the Force, although maybe I read too much of Vergere's teachings, but the Vong are alive

Tramp
7 October 2003, 06:49 PM
Yes, they are a part of the force on some level, but they can't be sensed through it, nor be sensitive to it. "Vong Sense" is something that a few rare Jedi have, namely Tahiri, Jacen, and Anakin, because of unique circumstances, and doesn't work the other way around.. It is not the same as sensing through the Force. A Yuuzhan Vong isn't going to be affected by the Cave on Dagobah.

Remus Lightforce
7 October 2003, 07:38 PM
Picked it up and read it in a 5-hour stint. A very good novel.

My favorite part would have to be the revelation that Zonama Sekot is where the Yuuzhan Vong originate from. It makes me wish I would have thought of it before, so I could feel all omniscient and all ;p.

Hey Tramp, did you the part with Jaina in stun cuffs and a slave collar? LoL! You know I'm j/k =p.

Anyway, great book, everyone should go out and pick it up.

Tramp
7 October 2003, 07:43 PM
I prefer the scene where she's at the beach on Mon Calamari at the end of the book. I have to wonder what kind of bathing suit she was wearing:D I'm thinking bikini:D

Solo666
9 October 2003, 06:37 PM
My bad the cave was a dying Dark Jedi who didn't know about the vong. Of course it couldn't affect them. I should have realized this, I did this morning

Solo666
9 October 2003, 07:10 PM
Yo what did yoou guys think of the "Tahiri cave scene" I wrote?

Wedge in Red2
10 October 2003, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Solo666
My bad the cave was a dying Dark Jedi who didn't know about the vong. Of course it couldn't affect them.

Huh? I do not follow that logic at all. The Dark Jedi didn't know about the Vong, so it wouldn't affect them? That makes no sense.

The reason the Cave would not affect the Vong is because they are outside the Force, or as has been speculated upon "on a different frequency".

As for why no one has commented on your "Tahiri Cave scene", it's possibly because they're following the rule "if you haven't got anything good to say, don't say anything at all".

For my comments on it - nice sentence structure, they're short and not overly complex, which makes it easy to read. The plot seems very rushed, you've tried to incoroprate too much in a short piece of prose. Excellent use of punctuation and capitals, a rarity on these boards :). Not sure I agree with your plot though,

So, writing style I'd give it a 7 out of 10, but content 3 out of 10.

Jon

Solo666
10 October 2003, 07:33 AM
The Dark Jedi was not Vongsensitve, so onviously he could only affect the Force he uses. The cave is like a dead mind run by the DArk Side constantly using Affect Mind on anything it can see (those strong in the Force). This is why it wouldn't work, not because the cave is called "Force-Sensitive"

wolverine
10 October 2003, 01:15 PM
I would agree. Vong, just like non force sensitives would feel nothing from that cave.

As to the Tahiri cave scene, i actually liked it.

Jeskan
14 October 2003, 04:22 PM
I would have liked to know what Tahirir actualy saw in the cave, though

Solo666
14 October 2003, 06:21 PM
Really? Remember the cave is not necessarily ruth. I suppose you could argue that Luke did become Vader-like, w/ the fake hand and being Palpy's padawan and all, but it just shows the darkest possibility. Tahiri wold probably have turned dark from whatever she saw in there.

Jeskan
14 October 2003, 07:12 PM
She would have seem a posible outcome of what would happen if you follow down the dark path. It won't turn you dark, it is a test. You face a fear or something along that nature. Luke failed his test and he didn't turn to the dark side

Zanus
14 October 2003, 11:59 PM
Actually Luke did turn to the dark side at one point, but Leia was able to bring him out of it. Dark Empire if you want to check. Great series.

But the vision that luke had in the cave does not relate to that, it was a more immediate sort of outcome. Luke could have ended up just like Vader if he had decided to join his father at Bespin or Endor, it was not a prediction of the events of Dark Empire

Rogue Janson
15 October 2003, 07:00 AM
I read The Final Prophecy yesterday and I have to say I have slightly mixed feelings about it. For me it was a bit lacking in action and tension. The whole Bilbringi battle seemed rather dull, and secondary to the main plot. It's purpose seems to be a little thin - it gives other characters something to do and it gives an example of the general war effort - GA&Remnant counter-attacking, but new YV weapons being introduced. I don't know whether I'm over-interpreting it, but the fact that a battle commanded by Wedge was given such prominence, may be a further suggestion he may not survive the next book. The revelations, such as they were, about the YV and Zonama Sekot, were great to know, but they had to come out some time.

Anyway, all that's not saying I didn't really like the book. The strong point was the interaction between the strange party on ZS - Nom Anor/Yuu'Sha(sp?), Harrar, Nen Yim, Tahiri and Corran. All different and, with the possible exception of Corran, all twisted/messed up in their own way. The fact both Nen Yim and Harrar, two of the most developed, understandable and understanding Yuuzhan Vong were killed is a great shame. It'll make the task of reconciliation much harder, both in terms of the story and the actual writing.

Even if it can seem a little contrived from time to time, I like the way Nom Anor's 'prophecies' and teachings unwittingly edge towards the truth and tend towards self-fulfillment. It strengthens my opinion that he doesn't really understand what he's set in motion. In fact, you could say that ever since Traitor, Nom Anor has unwittingly worked for the Force. Proving you don't have to believe in destiny and fate to be affected by them. I half expected Zonama Sekot to come out of hyperspace at the end (or the start of the next book) in the sky of Yuuzhan'tar.

In all, I think this book's main purpose was to deliver some revelations, and clues towards revelations, that had to come out and that required a bit of a change of pace. As such, I'd say it partly represents the quiet before the storm that will be The Unifying Force.


originally posted by Nova Spice
I agree. And there definitely is. Zonama Sekot is bigger than we can imagine. It is the key to more than just the Yuuzhan Vong. Call me crazy, but I think that when Nen Yim discovered the secret of the Living Planet in this novel, she also discovered the secret to something else, something she had no clue about. The Force.

But because Nom Anor killed her, it's going to be damn hard for Nen Yim's revelations to be understood by the Jedi. Tahiri is the only one with any chance of possibly being able to comprehend what Nen Yim learned.
The part about Tahiri is definitely true, though I don't think Nen Yim discovered the 'ultimate solution (of course we may never know). I think Tahiri's comprehension will go beyond Nen Yim's. Nen Yim was able to understand the implications of Zonama Sekot for the Yuuzhan Vong. Tahiri will be able to understand them for both sides. I can see Jacen having a part in this though, since he has to have some great philosophical breakthrough at some point, and of the Jedi he's the second closest to the YV.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong and Zonama Sekot itself, I think we can probably piece together some fact, but it'll be tough. One of the most intriguing questions is about the memory of Sekot. We can see good reasons why the Yuuzhan Vong don't remember it, but why doesn't Zonama Sekot remember them?

Another note - if the issue of alpha red returns in UF, we can guess that the agent will almost certainly affect Zonama Sekot as well as the Yuuzhan Vong.

All in all, I was a bit surprised at how short it was. The Unifying Force is either going to have to be absolutely jam-packed to bring things to a conclusion and tie up loose ends adequately (we're no closer to knowing what the hell that bit with Shimmra at the end of DW was about) or things could end up rather messy.

Jeskan
15 October 2003, 10:46 AM
Zanus, what I meant was that he didn't turn to the darkside because of what he saw in the cave.
I don't know about any of you, but when I found out that the Riina was actualy created from the memories if Nen Yim I was caught off guard. I was not expecting that. I think If Tahiri disovers the mystery of vong it will have to do with the memories of Riina/Nen Yim

Remus Lightforce
16 October 2003, 10:17 AM
I was rereading from Edge of Victory to The Final Prophecy again, and I was thinking about Shimrra, and how there hasn't been any big revelations about him, yet. Anyway, after reading through the end of Destiny's Way again, an idea popped in my head.

What if Omini is Shimrra's twin? I know it's a far shot, but it really does seem to make sense to me, now that I think about it. It would explain why Shimrra keeps Omini has his familiar, and why Omini says "You used the Gods". Shimrra might not have actually killed Omini, like he was supposed to.

Anyway, just an idea ;p.

Zanus
16 October 2003, 11:45 AM
That's an interesting perspective with possible implications. Could have maimed his twin, then had a shaper turn him into a shamed one, as almost no one fully pays attention to those outcasts. or his twin was born a shamed one for some reason, and hidden from public view so no one would know better.

I just thought it meant he used the word of the gods to get the vong to do what he wanted them to do, even it if wasn't really the will of the gods to do what he was doing. You know, he gives lip service to them, but doesn't actually believe in them himself sorta thing. should be interesting when he is revealed either way.

Another thing I noticed at the end of DW was how Shimraa was just sitting there while onimi was chatting away. you think it possible Onimi is the actually brains and controler of the two?

Jeskan
16 October 2003, 04:16 PM
what if Onimi is Quoreal, the predacessor of Shimra and he is controlling Shimraa like Zanus said? Wouldn't it be weird if Jacen goes to face Shimraa ala Luke vs palpy and right before they fight, Onimi says "Stand down, I will take care of this." and Shimraa says something like "Yes, oh Great Dread One." That would have been the last thing I would have expected

Solo666
16 October 2003, 05:34 PM
I hope a Vong-English dictionary comes out. Is Basic English or has it just never been published? Learning the Yuuzhan ?Vong language could answer 75% (give or take 25) of the TFP questions people have

Zanus
16 October 2003, 06:48 PM
Jesken I don't think it would be the last thing, since you just thought of it ;) But it would be interesting to see something like that happen.

Solo As far as I understand, the spoken part of Basic is english, but the written language is different. I know there have been several reproductions of the written language all over. I have it in the back of the Alien Anthology book for D6, possibly in another source book as well. I am sure there other D20 and none WotC books that have it too.

Rogue Janson
17 October 2003, 02:15 AM
The idea that Onimi is Quoreal is certainly interesting, but I don't think it makes sense from Shimmra's pov, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, keeping the previous Supreme Overlord around is a very dangerous thing to do when people are still loyal to him. It doesn't matter, you say, because he's a shamed one, people won't listen to him because he's been cursed by the gods. Well if he's been cursed by the gods, why not let everybody know and cut the feet out from the Quorealists.

Also I don't think Onimi is controlling Shimmra. Certainly there's a more equal relationship between them than anyone knows, as Onimi knows what a bad position Shimmra is really in, but I haven't seen any evidence Onimi is actually the dominant one - and the thought had crossed my mind before.

In this case, before we know any more about the history of Shimmra and Quoreal and (I repeat) that crazy bit at the end of Destiny's Way, I don't think we can speculate too much on this.

Solo666
17 October 2003, 12:55 PM
Shimmra seems more likely to kill him than have him be the one in charge. I doubt he has that much of a need for a superior officer- he seems to know more about many things than Tsavong Lah. Speaking of Tsavong, he died when? I know when his father died, but...

Darth Fierce
17 October 2003, 01:51 PM
If I remember correctly, Tsavong Lah died at the Battle of Ebaq 9 (which took place in Destiny's Way, right?).

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
17 October 2003, 10:17 PM
If I remember correctly, Tsavong Lah died at the Battle of Ebaq 9 (which took place in Destiny's Way, right?).

Correct. Tsavong Lah took the wrong end of Jaina's lightsaber through his throat. It's a good thing too; he damn near killed Lowbacca.

As far as Onimi being Shimrra's twin, I find that an interesting proposition. I have a fairly vague explanation that Onimi did something important for Shimrra in his past. Perhaps Onimi is the reason why Shimrra overthrew Quoreal? That might be why he holds such a "high position" despite his rank.

Jeskan
18 October 2003, 05:30 AM
Zanus, thats why I said it would have been the last thing I would have thought of:D

wolverine
18 October 2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice

Perhaps Onimi is the reason why Shimrra overthrew Quoreal? That might be why he holds such a "high position" despite his rank.

Ohh, that brings up some new thoughts there nova....

Jim Williams
18 October 2003, 04:19 PM
Poor Harrar...Poor Nem Yin

So much for my idea that two Jedi may have to cross sabers to allow Nom Anor to negotiate a peace between the GA and Vong.

Now he'll probably be selling quarter shots with a sledgehammer on Nom's tied up corpse...that guy is a b......rd!

Nova Spice
18 October 2003, 06:57 PM
Poor Harrar...Poor Nem Yin

I'm not totally sold that Harrar is dead. Tahiri and Corran never mentioned seeing a corpse, nor did the narrative describe Nom confirming his death.

Harrar is the only logical Vong seen in the NJO. And by logical I mean, he knows not to accept everything he is told and has a general willingness to understand.

Harrar may yet be alive. And if he is alive, he may well be the instrument of Nom Anor's final downfall. I still have hope that the priest survived. Fortunately, we've only two weeks to wait before everything comes to its conclusion! :D

Darth Fierce
18 October 2003, 07:32 PM
Nova Spice, I too think it would be a cool scenario to see Harrar and Nom Anor battle it out to the death in The Unifying Force. I personally can't wait for Nom to finally meet his maker.

However, from what I read in The Final Prophecy, I feel it was pretty much implied that Harrar was killed when Nom Anor activated Tahiri's lightsaber on the cliffside at Zonama Sekot. From what I read, it was obvious Harrar was trying to strike Nom Anor, but slipped on the wet rocks before being able to do so. In my mind, Nom took advantage of this situation, activated the lightsaber, and cut Harrar in two just before Harrar's body tumbled into the abyss beyond the cliff. Did anyone else get this impression from the book?

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
18 October 2003, 08:22 PM
From what I read, it was obvious Harrar was trying to strike Nom Anor, but slipped on the wet rocks before being able to do so. In my mind, Nom took advantage of this situation, activated the lightsaber, and cut Harrar in two just before Harrar's body tumbled into the abyss beyond the cliff. Did anyone else get this impression from the book?

Re-reading the passage, Fierce, I am convinced. Harrar cannot be confirmed as dead. And no, Nom did not strike Harrar with Tahiri's lightsaber. He missed completely. Check out pg. 264.

At the appearance of the blade, however, Harrar tried to stop his forward motion and jerked his leg away from the attack; he slipped on the wet rocks and stumbled, falling past Nom Anor and over the cliff.
His howl of rage and frustration was quickly cut short.
Panting, Nom Anor rose, extinguished the lightsaber, and continued on his way. The gods were with him again, it seemed. Certainly they were no longer with Harrar.
-pg. 264, The Final Prophecy

Notice that it says Harrar's howl of rage was cut short. This implies that his fall may not have been as far down as believed. Nom Anor did not slice Harrar with the saber, nor did he look to see where Harrar landed. If no body was seen or confirmed, then Harrar cannot be considered dead. Believe it or not, I believe Greg Keyes intentionally "forgot" to describe Harrar's body after the fall.

I think Nom Anor just made a big mistake. Always make sure your enemies are dead. We'll see how this theory pans out in TUF.

Rogue Janson
19 October 2003, 07:29 AM
That's a very good point. When I first read that passage I wasn't sure Harrar was dead, but then assumed that he was from what followed (doesn't Tahiri say he's dead at one point?). But maybe he's 'pulled a Nom Anor', to coin a phrase, and will reappear in the next book. (Stranger things have happened - I thought Nom Anor was done for after Traitor, but he was back in DW and the author didn't seem to feel any need to explain.) I did find it hard to believe they'd killed off the only two Yuuzhan Vong that could plausibly negotiate meaningfully with the Galactic Alliance and GA aligned characters.

BrianDavion
19 October 2003, 09:38 AM
the only two? I dunno, keep in mind these are fairly average Vong in some respects. I suspect we'll find many Vong much more reasonable on Zoma Selkot.

which may be the reason Shimarra fears it. I imean, Imagine if there's a world where just setting foot on it will turn all your warriors from cold ruthless killers... imnto peaceful hippies :)

Solo666
19 October 2003, 09:56 AM
Nom Anor would not be above lying if he couldn't get to Harrar and thought the planet would be destroyrd anyway. I think Harrar will meet up with Tahiri later and come up with a plot against Shimmra. Because this is a story, which sometimes does stupid things for the plot, there is a chance he will be Vongsensitive and Tahiri made his master. However if this happens then I have sadly underestimated the quality of NJO

Jeskan
19 October 2003, 03:47 PM
Solo666...no. For one thing, Tahiri is still just an aprentice herself. Do you remember the part where Corran Horn accepted her as an aprentice? You should because its one of the important parts of the book. Luke's Academy is disorganized, but it's not that disorganized. From what I have read, the NJO has done nothing "stupid" for the plot, and I don't think they are gonna start on the last book of the series.

Nova Spice
19 October 2003, 04:24 PM
Nom Anor would not be above lying if he couldn't get to Harrar and thought the planet would be destroyrd anyway. I think Harrar will meet up with Tahiri later and come up with a plot against Shimmra. Because this is a story, which sometimes does stupid things for the plot, there is a chance he will be Vongsensitive and Tahiri made his master. However if this happens then I have sadly underestimated the quality of NJO

Excuse my language, but there is no way in hell that Harrar is Force-sensitive and will become Tahiri's apprentice. In fact, there is a far greater chance that the sun will explode tomorrow than for this to occur. :P

There's not a single logical explanation for any of the above to even be considered for plot purposes. So you don't have to worry about this happening. ;)

BrianDavion
19 October 2003, 05:05 PM
Tahiri is still just an aprentice herself.

actually she's technicly a full knight, her apprenticeship to corren is more a reckognization of "I really need some extra help due to my whole split personality thing"

Rogue Janson
20 October 2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
the only two? I dunno, keep in mind these are fairly average Vong in some respects. I suspect we'll find many Vong much more reasonable on Zoma Selkot.

which may be the reason Shimarra fears it. I imean, Imagine if there's a world where just setting foot on it will turn all your warriors from cold ruthless killers... imnto peaceful hippies :)
Well, I don't literally mean the only two out of the whole race who could negotiate with the GA, though the personal relations they developed were unique. I mean it more in story terms. There are no other characters that are at the correct stage in their development who could do it. They would have to introduce/develop a character solely in one book to do the job, which wouldn't really work very well.

BrianDavion
20 October 2003, 11:12 AM
also it seem obvious to me that those who truely are EVIL for Vong, are unaffected by the feel good vibes of the world

genehow67
27 October 2003, 04:53 PM
I thought it was a great book. I liked seeing Corran back in a more active role.


Though I was quite irritated to see Nom Anor escape again. That guy has got to be the luckiest man alive. And he's been the worst bad guy in the series. Constantly failing to meet any objective - constantly getting his A** handed to him by the heroes...
Seems like everytime he gets close to death, he gets tlucky and slips away.

I really, reallly, really hope he gets killed in the UF.

Nova Spice
27 October 2003, 05:11 PM
And he's been the worst bad guy in the series. Constantly failing to meet any objective - constantly getting his A** handed to him by the heroes...

Gotta disagree here. Nom Anor is by far the best antagonist in the NJO. While he has failed plenty of times, many people miss something important. Nom Anor possesses one of the most admirable character traits--he never gives up. Usually, that quality is something that a "good guy" has, but not in the case of "The Prophet."

Nom's Major Successes:
-Slaughters the Imperial Ruling Council, paving the way for the Empire's final downfall.
-Instigates the Rhommamool-Osarian war, distracting the New Republic from the advance of the Praetorite Vong in the Outer Rim.
-Poisons Mara Jade with a life-threatening disease.
-Creates the Peace Brigade.
-Brings about the fall of Duro, almost single-handedly.
-Succeeds in instilling corruption in the upper echelons of the Senate; including the Advisory Council (i.e Viqi Shesh).
-Inadvertently complicates matters on the Jedi strike team to Myrkr, leading to the death of Anakin Solo.
-Lays the foundation for the Shamed One's heresy/revolt against Shimrra.
-Succeeds in killing Nen Yim, the sole bearer of Sekot's knowledge.

That's a pretty stout list of accomplishments. While he did fail to capture Jacen Solo in the Well of the World Brain, along with the under-estimation of Ganner Rhysode, and the Ebaq fiasco, Nom Anor has always bounced back. He's the bad guy we all "love to hate."

That's the mark of a great villain. ;)

Solo666
27 October 2003, 06:18 PM
Nom is among the most skilled of the vong, the failures work to reinforce his hatreds and other motivations.
About Nom- in FHI, he seemed a different person when he was thinking. He seemed to believe in the gods, when he had always (in his mind) utterly disbelieved them. Why?

genehow67
27 October 2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice


Gotta disagree here. Nom Anor is by far the best antagonist in the NJO. While he has failed plenty of times, many people miss something important. Nom Anor possesses one of the most admirable character traits--he never gives up. Usually, that quality is something that a "good guy" has, but not in the case of "The Prophet."

Nom's Major Successes:
-Slaughters the Imperial Ruling Council, paving the way for the Empire's final downfall.
Ok....


-Instigates the Rhommamool-Osarian war, distracting the New Republic from the advance of the Praetorite Vong in the Outer Rim.
ok again - tho these events occur when he's working on his own...


-Poisons Mara Jade with a life-threatening disease.
Cured - no success there. Tho it distracted the Skywalkers for a bit - they came out stronger.


-Creates the Peace Brigade.
Not a great success. Anyone could have gathered the scum of the galaxy into that hodgepodge of ineffectual buffons. Then hand the whole thing over to Thrackan Sal-Solo....Cool. They were worst than stormtroopers. Just cannon fodder.


-Brings about the fall of Duro, almost single-handedly.
The Duros Fiasco? An expensive 'victory'. And for a planet that was so polluted, the natives preferred to live in orbit.


-Succeeds in instilling corruption in the upper echelons of the Senate; including the Advisory Council (i.e Viqi Shesh).
;) Nothing difficult there. She woulda sold out the NR for anything or anyone. She was just looking for more power.


-Inadvertently complicates matters on the Jedi strike team to Myrkr, leading to the death of Anakin Solo.
AS much as I hated to see Anikin die, the trade off was fair. He sacraficed himself to destroy the Voxcyn, a major threat to the jedi Knights. Nom lost a major weapon of the Vong.



-Lays the foundation for the Shamed One's heresy/revolt against Shimrra.
Okay, now he's working against his own. He's attempting to undo everything he's fought for so far. He's failed his own people so utterly, that now he is attempting to destroy his own people.


-Succeeds in killing Nen Yim, the sole bearer of Sekot's knowledge.
But he missed Tahri - she'll pick up what Nen discovered. There's also the possibilty that Harrar survived. Maybe Sekot saved him...



That's a pretty stout list of accomplishments. While he did fail to capture Jacen Solo in the Well of the World Brain, along with the under-estimation of Ganner Rhysode, and the Ebaq fiasco, Nom Anor has always bounced back. He's the bad guy we all "love to hate."

That's the mark of a great villain. ;) [/B]:raised:

Nah, I don't love to hate him. I just don't think he's been that effective of a Villian.His name or presence didn't inspire fear or dread. Just a feeling of, "Jeeze, won't he just die already?"
In fact there is no one vong that really stands out as a great villian. The race as a whole, yeah. But no one Vong that I liked as a villian.
No one to rank up there with Vader, Thrawn.....which I would have expected from a story line of this magnitude.

BrianDavion
28 October 2003, 12:47 AM
I tend to agree. Nom Anor is mostly a case of "for crying out loud can't they just kill him off"

Rogue Janson
28 October 2003, 05:07 AM
I dunno. Much as I find Nom Anor's incredible survival annoying, I tihnk he's fairly well written as a villain. Look at it this way:
The heroes in the NJO series need a long-running antagonist. That character can't be all that successful though, otherwise the heroes all start dying and don't have any successes of their own. So he has to have limited successes, but be foiled in most of his major plots.

I think the authors have done a fairly decent job of this. You can be pretty sure whenever Nom Anor pops up he's not going to be entirely successful, but he's going to cause tremendous trouble and quite probably do something deviously evil (like killing Nen Yim, and possibly Harrar).

Darth Fierce
28 October 2003, 05:28 AM
I have to agree with Nova Spice that Nom Anor has become the greatest antagonist in the NJO series. Look at how many supposedly great Yuuzhan Vong he has out-lived: Tsavong Lah and his father, Shedao Shai, and I'm sure a long list of more Vong leaders that I've missed. The trait that Nom has that these military leaders didn't is that he knows when he's lost a battle, and gets himself out of harm's way to live another day. Plus, like Nova indicates, Nom always finds a way to pick himself up after a "loss" and rebuild himself.

By the way, genehow67, the Battle of Duro was a major loss for the GFFA (or New Republic at that time) due to the fact that all but one of the orbital cities of Duro were either drawn into the murky atmosphere of Duro to crash onto the surface, or were destroyed in space. Also, the failure by the New Republic to secure the safety of Duro has led many Duros to be very angry with the GFFA. Thus, Nom stirred the pot of dissention again among the member races of the GFFA with the Battle of Duro.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Solo666
28 October 2003, 02:09 PM
If anyone survives this war to become a major plague to the GFFA, it will b Nom Anor. He's too good at staying alive to die in TUF

BrianDavion
28 October 2003, 02:17 PM
nah he'll die. he needs to die so we can all say "FINALLY" and so that TUF has some conclusion.

obviously the vong aren't going to be expelled from the galaxy so we gotta have something to well.. make the series seem conclusive

CaamasiJedi49
28 October 2003, 02:50 PM
I must agree wole heartedly that Nom Anor is teh the person we love to hate. He has done a lot of for himself, but has also suffered huge setbacks. Ebaq 9 was a major military blunder, no thanks to his information, and this will hang over him in Vong society for teh rest of his life, making it difficult for him to really gain teh power base necessary to rule the vong. Anywhos, I got off track, but oh well.

CaamasiJedi49:plokoon:

Nova Spice
28 October 2003, 06:56 PM
Not a great success. Anyone could have gathered the scum of the galaxy into that hodgepodge of ineffectual buffons. Then hand the whole thing over to Thrackan Sal-Solo....Cool. They were worst than stormtroopers. Just cannon fodder.

The Peace Brigade? Not a great success? You sure you and I have been reading the same novels?

Peace Brigade accomplishments:
-Responsible for the rampant anti-Jedi sentiment in the galaxy.
-Reponsible for instilling fear of the Vong into countless worlds (some of the more famous being Atzerri, Obroa-skai, Duro, Ando, Falleen, Kudindi, Tynna, Cujicor, Gyndine, and most of Hutt Space). This fear led to the conquering of all these worlds and many more.
-Responsible for eliminating many Jedi (including Dorsk 82, Swilja Fenn, and Seyyerin Itoklo).
-Responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Academy
-Responsible for causing hundreds of Senators to betray the New Republic (a particularly effective tactic at the Battle of Coruscant).
-Responsible for bringing about much of the communications black-out throughout the rest of the galaxy.
-Responsible for causing many high-profile worlds in the comm blackout to fall (including Barab I, Belderone, Generis, N'Zoth, Gallantos, and Firrerro).

Not too shabby for a "hodgepodge of ineffectual buffoons." ;)

And I might point out that gathering the "scum" of the galaxy into a single fighting force is far more difficult than you think. These are people that are generally selfish, arrogant, and have no sense of loyalty. Quite an accomplishment on Nom's part.


The Duros Fiasco? An expensive 'victory'. And for a planet that was so polluted, the natives preferred to live in orbit.

You forget that the fall of Duro set up a two-pronged assault that destroyed Coruscant. The significance of this world's fall should not be trivialized, regardless of its polluted state.


Nothing difficult there. She woulda sold out the NR for anything or anyone. She was just looking for more power.

Nothing difficult about getting Senators to betray their government? I'll call you on this one. What Nom Anor did, by causing hundreds of Senators to betray the New Republic, would be equivalent to a foreign force invading the United States and the Senators from say New York, Virginia, and Ohio helping that enemy win.

That's by and large, a very amazing accomplishment.


AS much as I hated to see Anikin die, the trade off was fair. He sacraficed himself to destroy the Voxcyn, a major threat to the jedi Knights. Nom lost a major weapon of the Vong.

Despite the loss of the voxyn project, Anakin Solo still died. And that can be credited partially to Nom Anor.


Okay, now he's working against his own. He's attempting to undo everything he's fought for so far. He's failed his own people so utterly, that now he is attempting to destroy his own people.

He was cast out by Shimrra, yes. He failed at Ebaq, yes. But to rally nearly the entire Shamed One population under one ideology is also an amazing accomplishment, regardless of his intentions.


But he missed Tahri - she'll pick up what Nen discovered. There's also the possibilty that Harrar survived. Maybe Sekot saved him...

I also believe Harrar is alive. And while he didn't kill Tahiri, he did kill the most important Master Shaper to the Yuuzhan Vong leadership. That would also go under his accomplishment list.

I think the case has been made that his accomplishments far outweigh his failures in the NJO. ;)

Zanus
28 October 2003, 09:04 PM
The only reason I see that there is so much attention paid to his failures is because when he failed, he failed BIG, and the vong are not exactly into looking at the suttler nuances of scheming, unless they worship the trickster goddess, like Nom Anor. And I don't think they realize the effectiveness of some of Nom Anor's schemes outside of what he was supposed to accomplish.
The Peace Brigade are foiled by the main characters so often because all the smart fringers work for Karrde and his kind, or have holed themselves up somewhere. Or they put a high charge on their services, which the PB has bought as shown in some of the books (the pilot that didn't care about the PB goals, but just wanted to be paid comes to mind, I think he was on Yavin when it fell, or in a book before that. Can't really count that one ship jacker from the thrawn trilogy, he was already established to be an idiot). The vong see the PB as a bunch of gullible infidels (which is true in my oppinion) that are occasionally useful for getting into places the vong can't get to yet (also true in my oppinion, as explained by Nova)

genehow67
28 October 2003, 10:29 PM
Okay Nova, I'll give you some of those. You defend Nom's Honor well...
:)

But I still don't see him as a 'great' villian. :thrawn: *ahem*

Maybe some more effort could have been put into giving him more 'presence'. I dunno. I've read all the post ROTJ EU novels, And all the NJO novels. But whenever Nom comes into play, he's just annoying. He's had so many lucky breaks that enable him to live another day. Maybe I would have liked him more if his escapes had been more due to cunning, planning and resolve(Which he seems to have a lot of)....


I'll probably go back and reread the series once the last book is published (And I've read it) I'll give him another chance.......

But he'd better die in the last one ;)

Nova Spice
29 October 2003, 07:25 PM
Maybe some more effort could have been put into giving him more 'presence'. I dunno. I've read all the post ROTJ EU novels, And all the NJO novels. But whenever Nom comes into play, he's just annoying.

That's completely understandable, gene. If Nom Anor annoys you, then consider yourself in the norm. He annoys lots of people. :)

That's one of the side-effects of his persona. It's one of the reasons he has been a great villain. Despite his uncanny knack for survival and his penchant for showing up at the most dire of times, Nom Anor is a great villain. These characteristics only enhance how dangerous a foe he truly is to the heroes in the New Jedi Order.


But he'd better die in the last one

He might just do that. :D

Solo666
30 October 2003, 02:43 PM
He is the most important character of NJO, in every book. So his death would make sense as the conclusion. However, the only thing I found annoying about him were his motives at some times. He is a genious worthy of Palpatine, his non-Force, Vong equal.