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Solo666
6 October 2003, 11:56 AM
No less than 2
So who is the Sith now?
Is Brakiss dead?
hmmm how any Sith levels did Kyp gain in The Academy Trilogy anyway?

Darth Fierce
6 October 2003, 02:54 PM
From what I understood, Kyp was one of the Dark Lords of the Sith before being redeemed, Solo666. If I remember right, the soul of Exar Kun bestowed the title upon him.

For an interesting view on if the Sith will return following the NJO series, take a look at the "Post-Vong Enemies" thread.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
6 October 2003, 04:51 PM
So who is the Sith now?

There are no more Sith. That threat ended with the death of Vader and Palpatine in Return of the Jedi.


Is Brakiss dead?

Yes. He died in the Young Jedi Knights series.


hmmm how any Sith levels did Kyp gain in The Academy Trilogy anyway?

Probably just one level, if that. I don't technically count Kyp as having been "Sith." He was possessed by Kun's spirit and turned to the dark side, but this wasn't some return of the Sith.

George Lucas has made it very clear: The Sith are dead. For good.

Paul Klein
6 October 2003, 06:46 PM
Darth Fierce,

Could you please place a link to the post-Vong enemies thread you refer to? Thanks :)

Reverend Strone
6 October 2003, 06:56 PM
Post Vong Enemies thread... (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14106&highlight=post+vong)

Wedge in Red2
7 October 2003, 01:14 AM
Thanks Strone.

For my 2c on the subject, if you want to have some Sith in your game after Vader/Palpy, go for it. However, I believe the official word was no more. Please note, though, the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi. There are definitely some Dark Jedi running about...

Jon

Solo666
7 October 2003, 05:12 PM
Didn't Yoda and Darth Bane say no less then two Sith @ all times?

Skreem
7 October 2003, 05:19 PM
Actually Solo666, Yoda said, "Always, there are two." This statement must not be taken out of context - this was said in response to QuiGonn speaking with the council about the Sith he encountered on Tatooine. Yoda was merely pointing out that there was another Sith, somewhere - either apprentice or master. He was not stating that as long as the Force exists, there will be 2 Sith.

Paul Klein
7 October 2003, 05:34 PM
Despite what George Lucas says, as long as there are materials left on the Sith (holocrons, etc...) and Dark Jedi willing to plunge themselves into the depths of evil, the Sith will always be a threat to the Galaxy.

Nobody ever said, after the Jedi Extermination, the Jedi were gone for good. As long as there is dark, there is light, and vice versa.

Nova Spice
7 October 2003, 06:19 PM
Nobody ever said, after the Jedi Extermination, the Jedi were gone for good. As long as there is dark, there is light, and vice versa.

Correct. But just because there is dark, Paul, doesn't mean there are Sith. The Sith are a specific sect devoted to the dark side of the Force. They have been the mortal enemies of the Jedi for thousands of years. Their threat finally ended in Return of the Jedi.

That doesn't mean that other elements of the dark side don't exist. As seen plenty of times in the EU with Brakiss, Kyp, Desann, and others, Jedi have turned to the dark side.

While the Jedi embody the lightside, they are not the only symbols of the light. The Fallanassi, Baran Do, and various other traditions also hold on to tenets of the light side.

There will always be light and dark. That doesn't mean there will always be Sith and Jedi. ;)

Solo666
7 October 2003, 06:26 PM
As long as there is dark, there is light, and vice versa.
Actually, I was going to do this for a campaign:
A follower of Darth Tyrannus's beliefs about balance, Sith Lord Darth Exar (named for Exar Kun) believes one in every two Jedi will turn dark and that this will be best if he commands them for the good of the galaxy. He therefore trains them at a Sith Academy much likeLuke's : began with a holocron and a little knowledge.

Paul Klein
7 October 2003, 08:08 PM
But, Sith are more powerful than generic Dark Jedi. As I said, so long as the manuals of the Sith remain, some ambitious Dark Jedi **will** attempt to revive the Sith.

To think otherwise is downright na´ve, despite what Lucas said about the ending of Return of the Jedi.

Wade Trenor
8 October 2003, 03:58 AM
I remember in the Tales of the Jedi comics series, when Ulic-Qel Droma and Exar Kun become Sith, the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords come to them and tell them that because of their actions, there will always be Sith.

Wedge in Red2
8 October 2003, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Solo666
Didn't Yoda and Darth Bane say no less then two Sith @ all times?

Darth Bane's edict, I believe, was that there should always only be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. That way, they could work in secrecy without being detected. That was after the Sith war, in which there were hundreds (if not more) Sith. With the death of Palpatine and Vader, the last two Sith who were following the edict of Bane, the edict is over. If a new Sith emerges (learning from Holocrons or other historical methods), they are not limited to the "rule of two". IMO, that is :).

Jon

cheshire
9 October 2003, 06:17 AM
Just remember that history repeats itself. If you decide to have a "Sith Academy" just remember what happened to the last group of Sith. It was relatively easy for the Jedi to round the last of them up, after they all had their own struggle for power. The Dark Side corrupts and fules the individuals will to power. Getting a large group of these people together makes it dangerous for anyone in the room. Another "Sith Academy" cannot remain a stable place for too long.

Solo666
9 October 2003, 06:07 PM
Fear is of the Dark Side
Would a mad strong Lord be able to hold power over them? It would basically be a Dark Jedi army with only the most loyal (fanatic, even) being trained as Sith

Kanner Ra'an
10 October 2003, 11:44 AM
Would a mad strong Lord be able to hold power over them? It would basically be a Dark Jedi army with only the most loyal (fanatic, even) being trained as Sith

Nope. As much as Fanatisism is getting a bad rap because of terroristism, its more of a good quality. Undying loyalty and such will not be found among the Sith. If the strongest are being trained then they will attempt to overthrow their ruler. Look at Palpatine, about the greatest, most powerful Sith Lord to have exist. Every one of his force trainee's, excluding Vader, was pathetic in comparison.

Loyalty is a quality of the light side. To truely embrace the dark side things like that are purgded. The Dark side is for the benefit of ones self, not of the whole.

BrianDavion
10 October 2003, 11:48 AM
I remember in the Tales of the Jedi comics series, when Ulic-Qel Droma and Exar Kun become Sith, the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords come to them and tell them that because of their actions, there will always be Sith.


yes, and the tales of the jedi comic series should be taken with more then just a few grains of salt. the entire series was complete and utter BS

Wade Trenor
10 October 2003, 09:02 PM
Yeah, there's one concept you should always remember regarding the Jedi and the Sith.

The Jedi are taught to love, so they are altruistic and loyal.

Sith are taught to hate, and so these concepts are foreign to them.

Darthspectre84
11 October 2003, 04:03 AM
Practially every member of the darkside are ambitious and power hungry. A single Sith or Dark Jedi is a huge problem. Not in groups cause they would kill eachother. Thats why there should always be two....they learnt that in the Sith War.

Solo666
11 October 2003, 02:23 PM
Notice Vader and Palpatine weren't completely loyal to one another, but a powerful lord with a lot of credits, a stormtrooper army, and a seemingly loyal assistant would deter mutiny, at least until most characters in the campaign are ready for a cataclismic war to end the campaign

Ardent
11 October 2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84
Practially every member of the darkside are ambitious and power hungry. A single Sith or Dark Jedi is a huge problem. Not in groups cause they would kill eachother. Thats why there should always be two....they learnt that in the Sith War.

It depends on both the individual and the opposition they face. As well, dark siders are not above helping (and being hellped) by each other if it improves their chances of survival.

I don't feel any need to revive the Sith in the NJO or post-NJO era. There are more than enough threats for would-be Jedi Knights.

Kanner Ra'an
12 October 2003, 09:16 AM
Notice Vader and Palpatine weren't completely loyal to one another, but a powerful lord with a lot of credits, a stormtrooper army, and a seemingly loyal assistant would deter mutiny, at least until most characters in the campaign are ready for a cataclismic war to end the campaign

The more powerful the person, the more men that are going to be trying to take over. What we've said about the Sith is for the most part absolute. Anyone powerful enough(ie every sith and powerful DSer) is going to either stage a coup or break away with as large of a force as you can get. If your looking for a realistic way to have a large group of Sith, their just isn't one. Thats why they kept the sith at a low number. Even then Vader still was trying to destroy the emperor and rule himself, and the emperor ruled the GALAXY. You dont get much more powerful then that. Sith are Sith. Its the way they are, and the way they will always be. They are the steriotype of evil, concerned for only personal power and fortune. They do not co-exist, they conquer and rule.

Solo666
12 October 2003, 12:21 PM
Would a Sith Lord be against Mind Control or alchemy to ensure that all followers taught to be Sith were mindless tools obeying only his will? Palpatine sort of did that with the stormtroopers-by accident I think. And as long as he is leading them at war against the Jedi and many (1/4) still think they are working for the good of the galaxy, I don't think rebeling will be much of a problem. It could be, if someone could think of a decent character to rebel against him and take his Empire.
NOTE:Jeskan if you read after this, You will remember none of it...

Kanner Ra'an
12 October 2003, 01:39 PM
Would a Sith Lord be against Mind Control or alchemy to ensure that all followers taught to be Sith were mindless tools obeying only his will?

Yes, they would be against wasting resources like that. Force Users arn't vunerable to those things as your normal "weak minded" person would be.


And as long as he is leading them at war against the Jedi and many (1/4) still think they are working for the good of the galaxy, I don't think rebeling will be much of a problem.

Nope.

The dark side, just as the light guides a jedi to good, will guide them to evil. They might see their leader as incompitent, not doing enough to rid the galaxy of the evil Jedi. Maybe they just beleive they would be a better leader for the job. Any doubts at all that are lingering in the back of their minds will be influenced by the dark side. In the end they will do whats right, for them. The fact that they're beleiving that their doing whats right makes it even more likly that they'll disagree with the Lord and betray him. Some might just do it to smite him or others so the rebellion wont succeed.

Solo666
13 October 2003, 07:56 AM
Many Sith lords are, like Nom Anor or Palpatine, geniouses at manipulation. Considering that this Sith Lord will believe himself to be doing what's right, a small amount (1/4) will follow him for that purpose, usually the weakest, considering what the DArk Side does to your mind.
And the answer to disloyalty always can come in th form of droids, which is why the last Sith War (The Clone War) involved massive armies with easily replicated numbers and unswerving obediance.

Nova Spice
13 October 2003, 10:28 AM
Many Sith lords are, like Nom Anor or Palpatine, geniouses at manipulation.

Nom Anor is not a Sith Lord. We've got to shake that theory out of your head, Solo666. :)


And the answer to disloyalty always can come in th form of droids, which is why the last Sith War (The Clone War) involved massive armies with easily replicated numbers and unswerving obediance.

Good point. I haven't thought about the droid and clone armies in this light before. Thanks for the insight. ;)

Kanner Ra'an
13 October 2003, 12:18 PM
Many Sith lords are, like Nom Anor or Palpatine, geniouses at manipulation.

Nova Spice said it. Nom Anor is not and never will be a Sith Lord (Though he is good at manipulation).

Now look at what you said again. Palpatine was a genous at manipulation. Yet under him their was 1 sith, and one alone. The greatest sith in the galaxy trained only one, for the exact reasons i've stated before. The sith tried the numbers game. Because their were so many out for themselves, and every sith is like that, they ripped themselves apart from the inside. Loyalties, consequences, reasoning, the dark side clouds all. The sith cant be controlled in the way you wish, darksiders yes, but not the sith.

Zanus
13 October 2003, 12:46 PM
Im still wondering where this 1/4 figure of loyal followers is coming from, but no matter.

Bare in mind Palpy did have lesser darkside followers and "dark jedi" in the core, and they did have their own ambitions. yes there was at least one of them that was totally loyal, like a puppy dog practically, but their where those that jumped at the opportunity to take things over for themselves when palpy died the second time. the other seemed to simply bided their time until their more powerful or more authoritive kin made a major mistake.

As far as the original subject, sith durring or after NJO, realistically I could see it as an issue, but not something rising from the main jedi order. Because of Kyp and Luke, the order would be well educated to watch out for this temptation. plus with Yavin's ruins crushed, Byss destroyed, and most of the Emperors materials confiscated and destroyed by Luke and others, there is that much left material left for a dark jedi or other force sensitive to find and use to go to the dark side.

The thing that gets me is the Jenesarii (i know I spelled that wrong) from I, Jedi. First I am surprised they haven't made an appearance in the NUO, they could easily augment the jedi's numbers if willing, and the fact that they use some of the Sith's teachings, supposedly. From prior material I read about the siths material, it was meant to entice someone into thinking they could use it to defeat the dark side, or possibly use it for good, but warp their minds in such a way that they end up in the dark side of the force, pulling them further into the materials. If the Jenessari have even a fraction of the materials possible and use it, why aren't they hunting for the rest of the material teachings and going all evil? I think the best possibility for Sith rising after NJO would be a member from this order that may have fallen for the tricks in the teaching, or if a force sensitive of any level finds that one Sith world where previous Sith Masters are burried (it was shown in one of the Dark Hoarse comics, a series right after Dark Empire 2, where palpy is looking for a means of extending the life of his last clone body). This is assuming that world wasn't destroyed at the end of the series or in a subsequent series, I never did get to read it all.

BrianDavion
13 October 2003, 12:52 PM
the Jennisari didn't progress far eenugh in the sith teachings to go dark side. I suspect they learnt very little that wasn't the base of jedi stuff. I've got a SWRPG char that's similer right now. he was trained as a dark jedi but his training got intturpted by endor and he wasn't exactly consumed by the dark side at the point.

Solo666
13 October 2003, 06:01 PM
Nom Anor is not a Sith Lord. We've got to shake that theory out of your head, Solo666.
I know that, I meant as an example. Even if he is Force-Sensitive, he doesn't know it yet (and that debate is as old as the transparent saber blade)

Bare in mind Palpy did have lesser darkside followers and "dark jedi" in the core
I didn't say that most of his followers would be Sith. The most loyal, dedicated and fanatic would be made into Sith, and not until they have become an Ace- killing 5 Jedi

Zanus
13 October 2003, 06:20 PM
see, you haven't been paying attention. There are only 2, master and apprentice. Palpy was master, Vader was his apprentice durring the empire, after Vaders death, Luke became the apprentice for a time, mostly to take down the emperor from the inside, then Palpy was simply to busy surviving to take on another apprentice, especially since most of his lesser retainers and dark jedi where dead. He would not have trained any of the other lesser adepts as a sith as long as he had an apprentice. And there would be no possibility of making "aces" since there where only a couple Jedi around as it was, and the two Sith of the time had the ability to take them on.

Wedge in Red2
14 October 2003, 04:50 AM
From memory, there wera a couple of planets with info available to potential Sith. Korriban was one, the other began with an O (Ordocron?) and I think is the one Zanus was referring to, where all the old Sith Lords are buried.

Personally, I'd recommend having a read of the Dark Side Sourcebook for those who haven't, it gives agood insight into the Sith, their structure, etc.

Cheers,

Jon

Darthspectre84
14 October 2003, 08:33 AM
No, i think it was Korriban where the Sith tombs were located and where Palpatine went to...
And you forget is that we have seen Dark jedi in NJO.....remember the book Anakin dies in....

Darth Fierce
14 October 2003, 09:07 AM
Although from what I've read in this thread seems to indicate we will not see a return of the Sith following the NJO era, another potential planet where a Sith Holocron could be still hidden is Ziost. If I remember right, it was the Sith homeworld, or at least a major world in the time of the Sith Empire.

Much like what has been said before, I believe that if you want the Sith to return in your post NJO SWRPG campaign, you should do it. Part of the fun of being a GM is being able to fudge the rules occasionally. In other words, not everything you do in your campaign has to be "just so" just because George Lucas said that's the way it should be. Be free...you have the right to use your imagination.

Darth Fierce :vader:

BrianDavion
14 October 2003, 10:22 AM
And you forget is that we have seen Dark jedi in NJO.....remember the book Anakin dies in....

I was dissapointed with the cameoesque nature of that it was almost like a "well I'll give the whole shadow academy a nod now" dealie.

but dark jedi aren't exactly sith.

Nova Spice
14 October 2003, 03:43 PM
From memory, there wera a couple of planets with info available to potential Sith. Korriban was one, the other began with an O (Ordocron?) and I think is the one Zanus was referring to, where all the old Sith Lords are buried.

Onderon is the name I think you're looking for, Jon. Assuming we're thinking of the same planet. :)


And you forget is that we have seen Dark jedi in NJO.....remember the book Anakin dies in....

I'm well aware of Lomi Plo and Welk. Then there's Lord Nyax from Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand.


was dissapointed with the cameoesque nature of that it was almost like a "well I'll give the whole shadow academy a nod now" dealie.

I wasn't. Personally I thought it was an excellent touch by Denning to add those two characters. A simple nod to the Shadow Academy is all that that series deserved anyway. The New Jedi Order deals specifically with the new generation and old generation overcoming previous antagonisms and rising to meet challenges far greater than any in history.

Lomi and Welk were both well-written and well placed in Star by Star. They also played a siginificant part that directly affected Raynar Thul and indirectly led to the death of Anakin and the capture of Jacen. Had they not stolen the shuttle, Anakin may never of died and Jacen may never of been captured.

Wedge in Red2
15 October 2003, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84
And you forget is that we have seen Dark jedi in NJO.....remember the book Anakin dies in....

No, Dark Jedi does not equal Sith. We're talking about Sith here, not the Dark Jedi. Sith is like a smaller sub set of Dark Jedi. Although I'm sure there have been Sith that never received Jedi training (and would therefore not really be Dark Jedi). So perhaps sub set is the wrong description, more like intersecting sets. But I digress.

Thanks Nova, I think Onderon was the name I was trying to think of. It's difficult when your rulebooks are on the other side of the world...

Jon

Darthspectre84
15 October 2003, 09:00 AM
I know we are talking about Sith, i am just mentioning that darkside users are still present but not sith.

Also i know this is kind of off topic, but how do you suppose the Lomi Plo and Welk story will go? or was it just in as a filler. Cause that was cool :) i mean trusting darksiders (nig mistake :P)

Darth Fierce
15 October 2003, 09:14 AM
If I remember right, Lomi Plo, Welk, and Raynar Thul were all killed attemping to escape Myrkr's (sp. ?) star system. Some type of Vong starship destroyed the shuttle they were in, if I'm right. I think I remember reading this in the NJO sourcebook.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
15 October 2003, 10:24 AM
If I remember right, Lomi Plo, Welk, and Raynar Thul were all killed attemping to escape Myrkr's (sp. ?) star system. Some type of Vong starship destroyed the shuttle they were in, if I'm right. I think I remember reading this in the NJO sourcebook.

The Jedi strike team, particularly Jaina and Anakin Solo, felt at least one of the three Force-users die. Whether Raynar made it, remains to be seen. :(

Zanus
15 October 2003, 05:27 PM
I have a feeling that because he was part of the force meld, his death would be far more noticable to the rest of the strike team then the two darksiders, especially since the team was more familiar with him anyway. Just my thought on that matter.

More then likely, if he had servived, it would have been mentioned by now. The jedi are getting too few in number to let something like that pass by, especially since it would prove to be a good moral boost amongst the jedi. Even more so if they could stop a coven of dark jedi from mucking things up against the vong or for after the vong

Darth_Xanthor
2 June 2005, 10:25 PM
Sidious himself sent out great amounts of holodrons. What they did was give teachings, so that a person believed they were learning the way fo jedi, when in reality, they were learning sith

Lord Marius
8 June 2005, 05:21 PM
Well in Jedi knights of the old republic video game there was a Sith academy which had been there for hundreds of years. I am assuming that the possiblity of a new Sith order is not impossible even most likly probable. The caverns in that place were imense and held thousands of relics. Not to mention the sith occupation in Yavin 4. The moon that Exar occupied has never been fully explored. Im assuming that there are still multiple sith temples out there with loads of artifacs.

Darthvegeta800
13 June 2005, 05:27 AM
Sith being dead is relative IF you take in account EU. Just look at Kotor, the novels etc. Where it's relative as hell.
But if you stick with George Lucas's view and thus ONLY the movies, the Sith are gone. Forever.

guaeko
13 June 2005, 10:14 AM
While I don't believe that the video games should be considered canon at all (since most are just made so you can be a KILLER Jedi), I would semi-agree with the last couple of statements.

It's logical that people would find the Sith Holocrons and try to teach themselves the way of the Sith. So, while there would be only 2 REAL Sith at a time, with the amount of planets that were once ruled by the Sith empire, I'd put money on a lot of Sith wannabes around.