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Solo666
25 October 2003, 12:42 PM
I've been rereading Destiny's Way, and it seems to me like Shimmra pulled a Vader: Force-gripping (or whatever u call it 4 Vong) Nom Anor so he would answer faster. Since Shimmra is widely believed to be Vongsensitive, is it fair to consider him as being based on Vader?

Darth Fierce
25 October 2003, 01:03 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this question. Sure, both are impressive specimens regarding their strength and connections with the Force (although this has not been verified for Shimrra yet). But if this is the only example your basing your argument on that Shimrra is inspired by Vader, then I think you're stretching things a bit. I personally would think that a better character to compare Shimrra to would be the Emperor. Shimrra is confident in most cases, basically to the point of arrogance, and has personal desires to conquer/keep control of the galaxy. Hmmm...I wonder who this reminds us of...

Darth Fierce :vader:

Zanus
25 October 2003, 01:31 PM
I don't think you can count that as a force grip either. He was merly making his presence be strongly felt in Anor's head to the point of driving him into a panic. Basically a means of making sure the truth is put out, as there would be to much stress on the individuals mind to try and come up with a lie. I personally still believe this ability is the result of his eye implants and not any innate natural abilities of shimraa himself. But that has already been discussed on another thread.

Darthspectre84
25 October 2003, 01:41 PM
Same thing i said, i think Shimrra is using an implant (whether the eye or something else) cause remember that certain implants no one else is supposed to have. Like the Shapers have the different hands. We have never really seen warriors with Maa'it implants. Warriors always get cloaks. And again Shapers get Vaa tumours. So perhaps with the rank of Supreme Overlord he gets an implant that gives him some telepathic powers. To influence the mind. Cause we already see this with yammosks so there might be something more....compact.

Rogue Janson
25 October 2003, 02:51 PM
Yeah, but who makes the implants? They're certainly not in any shaper database. Like I've said before, it's always seemed to me Shimmra has something more than just basic telepathy. People just don't go "oh well, a Yammosk can do it, I don't see why it's all that special."

Anyway to the topic; Shimmra does have some superficial similarities with Vader, like he's big, inspires fear and controls his subordinates, but really these are generic qualities. If you wanted to make a powerful villain with the Force, or Force-like powers, those are the sort of characteristics they'll inevitably end up with.

Zanus
25 October 2003, 07:55 PM
Where does it actually say his eye implants are not in any shaper database? Who says it isn't something in the database but restricted to him, as mentioned before by Darthspectre84.

Of coarse, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially since there is a lack of information in this case. Have to go off of personal impression on what is given. At least untilt he last book. To me, what has been shown leads me to believe it is the implants that allow him to put pressure on other vong's minds. It would seem rather rushed to show that he is actually vongsensitive or force sensitive with one book left, and far to cheesy.

BrianDavion
25 October 2003, 08:14 PM
unless of course shimirra's force sensititity had something to do with the zemona selkot plot.

Rogue Janson
26 October 2003, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by Zanus
Where does it actually say his eye implants are not in any shaper database? Who says it isn't something in the database but restricted to him, as mentioned before by Darthspectre84.
I suppose I should have made the distinction "any database used by the shapers" (shaper database). We can be pretty sure of this because Nen Yim has access to them all.


Of coarse, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially since there is a lack of information in this case. Have to go off of personal impression on what is given. At least untilt he last book. To me, what has been shown leads me to believe it is the implants that allow him to put pressure on other vong's minds. It would seem rather rushed to show that he is actually vongsensitive or force sensitive with one book left, and far to cheesy.
I think they've left rather a lot to be explained in the last book. I have the opposite idea - I think it would be a big letdown to find out that his powers simply come from implants. As BrianDavion just said, I think the explanation will be linked to Zonama Sekot, rolling everyone into one parsimonious revelation, though I can't say I have much idea what that explanation will be.

One other thing suggests to me that Shimmra may have the Force is that he's meant to have visions. We don't know this for sure - he may just have better sources and knowledge - but if it is true, it's pretty clear evidence of the Force.

Solo666
26 October 2003, 10:26 AM
he said he was seeing spots. As far as i can tell he has ranks in See Force (or Vongsense, obviously), Force Grip, Fear. Anybody fin any other evidence he is force-using? Anything unexpected has a future in swrpg, u know

Jedi Master Talon
27 October 2003, 08:02 AM
Personally I think that Shimmira is a force sensitive Vong. We know from the books that the Vong are "outside the Force" but if they were truly outside the Force then how could Anakin, Jacen and Tahari sense them throught the Force. They had a connection to the Vong because of the implants that were put on them. Okay now back to Shimira he could be Force sensitive but the Jedi not knowing it because I believe that Shimira is on a different spectrum of the Force that the Jedi can't sense.

Iceberg
27 October 2003, 11:06 AM
I forget his name exactly, but shimmra's pet shamed one. Onimi or something like that. There seems to be more going on with him than is being let on. It's almost as if he's the one really in control manipulating the body that is Shimmra. There have been several moments in the later novels that say something to the effect of shimmra sitting alone resting in pain wishing that pain would end when someone calls out to him to force him to act again as if he were a puppet on display for the masses.

CaamasiJedi49
27 October 2003, 11:53 AM
NIce theory Iceberg, It sounds highly possible. Anywhos, the Shimmra vision theory is incorrect. It has been mentioned at least once, I think in the NJOSB, that Shimmra's visions are just something made up to inspire religios zeal and instill loyalty in the Supreme overlord. Now, for the issue of being force sensitive in general, its a possibility, but it doesn't seem right, in my opinion. How could he, and he alone have the force sensitive gene, yet none of teh other vong do? Genetics aren't so picky and selective, in either the real world or the star wars universe. I do agree that it is just intimidate checks, witha unbelieveably high skill points in intimidate. But I could be wrong in the end, will have to wait for next week to find out.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

Solo666
27 October 2003, 01:39 PM
That theory has definitely been voiced before. I wonder if Onimi is Vongsensitive and that's y he has so much influence

Rogue Janson
27 October 2003, 01:40 PM
originally posted by Iceberg
Iceberg I forget his name exactly, but shimmra's pet shamed one. Onimi or something like that. There seems to be more going on with him than is being let on. It's almost as if he's the one really in control manipulating the body that is Shimmra. There have been several moments in the later novels that say something to the effect of shimmra sitting alone resting in pain wishing that pain would end when someone calls out to him to force him to act again as if he were a puppet on display for the masses.
See here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12510&perpage=15&pagenumber=6) for speculation about what that bit might mean (as well as lots more speculation about Shimmra). Incidentally, this is only mentioned once, at the end of Destiny's Way and not in any other book.


originally posted by Camaasi Jedi
Now, for the issue of being force sensitive in general, its a possibility, but it doesn't seem right, in my opinion. How could he, and he alone have the force sensitive gene, yet none of teh other vong do? Genetics aren't so picky and selective, in either the real world or the star wars universe. I do agree that it is just intimidate checks, witha unbelieveably high skill points in intimidate. But I could be wrong in the end, will have to wait for next week to find out.
The Force doesn't exactly work strictly by genetics though, it's a little more mysterious in its way. Whether or not you think Shimmra has the Force, or some other power, it's clearly not simply intimidation. You can't make high level agents see spots just by glaring and shouting at them, no matter how scary you are. He also does some other stuff, like inciting the caste leaders into something of a frenzy that can't be explained away like that.

Zanus
27 October 2003, 02:04 PM
You can't make high level agents see spots just by glaring and shouting at them, no matter how scary you are

I can vouch for that, having been through Army and Air Force training. I have seen people nearly soil themselves to a drill sgt who didnt' even raise his voice, he was simply that good at intimidating others, and the normal people getting their pants scarred off by a TI yelling. I have also seen these same TI's and Drill Sgts get scared of other TI's and DS's who where even better at their jobs. The first DS I mentioned is the best I have ever seen though. Still remember the time he got me from total euphoria for passing a test to nearly breaking down crying in public with just a couple words.

Solo666
27 October 2003, 03:33 PM
Nom Anor is not that easy to scare. All he cares about is his own life, and when threatened like that he replies like a politician. It would take something supernatural- aka the Force- to do that to him

Zanus
27 October 2003, 07:57 PM
Ok, let me ask you this, do you think that Yammosks and villips are force sensitive? They display telepathy, and mind links, in a similar fashion to how Shimmra impressed his presence on the minds of the ones he was trying to intimidate. If what you believe is true, then those other vong forms must be force sensitive. And yet, The jedi have been around them alot, and never once do they mention that they actually feel these creatures in the force. they can feel yammosks in there mind, but not in the way the force would enter someones mind, they would have said as much. It is mentioned that shimmra has been enhanced and shapped. Why would a vong, of any skill or loyalty to the gods, use anything other then some manner of vong form to give him the powers he has? Anything else would cause to many questions amongst the vong.

I will not argue with you about Nom Anor being scared of anything less then supernatural, although I disagree. Their is more then one form of supernatural power in the SW universe besides the Force.

Rogue Janson
28 October 2003, 04:58 AM
Well that's a tricky question. Yammosks, lambents etc. seem to have a 'regular' kind of telepathy, that has nothing to do with the Force. No-one seems particularly bothered or surprised by this. Some species in the SW galaxy (eg. Draethos, Celegians) also have telepathic powers that may or may not have anything to do with the Force.

I still don't see, if Shimmra simply has this sort of power, that the Yuuzhan Vong see it as so amazing. They don't just put two and two together and go "well Yammosks can do it, so it can't be all that special, it's probably just some implants." To be honest, I'm not totally certain that this isn't what will happen, but if it is, I think it's stupid.

All this is one reason I'm so interested to know whether Shimmra does get visions or not - since that's strong evidence he actually has the Force.

I should point out, if anyone's confused, I don't mean Shimmra has the Force in the way the Jedi do, he has what they call 'vongsense' - the Force on a different spectrum, or whatever it is. So he can almost certainly only affect Yuuzhan Vong with his powers.

Solo666
28 October 2003, 02:11 PM
. Why would a vong, of any skill or loyalty to the gods, use anything other then some manner of vong form to give him the powers he has? Shimmra has been known to use "unorthodox" measuers from time to time. Read the first half of Force Heretic I to see what i mean

Zanus
28 October 2003, 06:20 PM
I have, I dont see what you mean. What I have seen is that, yes he will use unorthidox methods, but it is in a way that the rest of the vong will understand and not question, ala vong forms.

As far as the vong forms used for his telepathy, they may be accessible in the shaper databases, they are simply restricted from being used by anyone other then the warlord

scottyboy
29 October 2003, 06:52 AM
I believe that the Vong do exist in the Force, just on a different LEVEL of the force. A level that the Jedi of the galaxy have never been trained to see. I think that's where Zonoma Sekot is going to play a big part. Even though I haven't read <b>The Final Prophecy</b>, I couldn't keep myself from reading the associated spoiler thread.

<b>***** SPOILERS *****</b>

Knowing that Zonoma Sekot is the long lost homeworld of the Yuuzhan Vong even goes to further this theory.

<b>***** SPOILERS OVER *****</b>

It's a given that Zonoma Sekot is a huge power when it comes to the Force, correct? Is it not possible that Zonoma Sekot is at such a high level in the Force that she is able to see both? That could possibly be why Shimmra is afraid of the planet. If Zonoma Sekot teaches the Jedi of the galaxy to open themselves fully to the Force, which in turn would possibly lead them to being able to sense the Yuuzhan Vong, would that not be an extreme advantage for the Galactic Alliance? That could mean doom for the whole Yuuzhan Vong race.

However, I don't think it'll go like that. I think that Zonoma Sekot will be the key to understanding between the races of the galaxy and the Yuuzhan Vong. Or at least lead to understanding between the Jedi and the Yuuzhan Vong. What it boils down to, IMHO, is finding out the origins of Zonoma Sekot, by both sides. Once that knowledge is out and both sides are aware of it, Zonoma Sekot will be a common link between this galaxy and the Yuuzhan Vong. Shimmra is simply afraid of losing his power. That's all he's EVER been afraid of. Once the truth comes out, he will go down. Think about it, if what I think is right, Zonoma Sekot could cast light on all of the lies he has been filling the minds of the Yuuzhan Vong with for the whole time he's been in power. They would kill him themselves.

Just my take on it.