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View Full Version : "Spoilers"Final Thoghts on the Force & the Vong



powalsh
11 November 2003, 07:21 AM
With the conclusion of TUF I think it appropriate to raise the question once again. What affect does the force have on the vong? Now that we know that they were stripped of the force it seems to me that we should be able to come up with some conclusive statements about this relationship.
Knowing that they were once touched by the force is it acceptable to compare their loss to Ulic Kel Drama, who to my understanding is the only other force stripped individual in the SW universe? Ulic later found redemption in death, whereas Onimi found redemption through Bioscience. Could there be other ways to reunite people with the force once it has been stripped from them, such as Sith alchemy?
In adition, we know that there exists the power of sever force. Could this power be reversed to reunite the Vong with the force or could the study of force severd species,such as the vong, lead to more Jedi, in the NJO, gaining the Sever Force ability?
Since we know that the Vong exist within the force, but lack the ability to comprehend or manipulate it do to their seperation from it, can we assume that it is possible to see them and move them within the force if said individual can bridge the force gap both physiclly and Mentally? That is to say that if a Jedi truly believes that the Vong are alive and therefore still conected to the force on some level, can he or she bridge the physical barrier, of the Force severing, that exists?
Finally, from a Roleplaying standpoint what kind of numerical modifier should we attribute to bridging the gap of a Force sever?
I understand that this is a lot of material to cover so feel free to respond to any or all questions that interest you.

Nova Spice
11 November 2003, 10:51 AM
Since we know that the Vong exist within the force, but lack the ability to comprehend or manipulate it do to their seperation from it, can we assume that it is possible to see them and move them within the force if said individual can bridge the force gap both physiclly and Mentally?

I would think so. Though, after finishing TUF, I've come to the conclusion that bridging this gap is still all but impossible. Perhaps once the Vong settle on Zonama Sekot, they will be reunited with the Force through Sekot or some other form of symbiosis.

Until then, however, the Vong are effectively stripped, and the Jedi's powers are all but useless on them (save for Jacen and Tahiri).

Iceberg
11 November 2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice


I would think so. Though, after finishing TUF, I've come to the conclusion that bridging this gap is still all but impossible. Perhaps once the Vong settle on Zonama Sekot, they will be reunited with the Force through Sekot or some other form of symbiosis.

Until then, however, the Vong are effectively stripped, and the Jedi's powers are all but useless on them (save for Jacen and Tahiri).

Given that Jacen went through no shaping other than the slave implants that I recall, he was, with the help of vergrere, able to sense the vong. I imagine it was due to contact with them for that period of time that allowed his senses to tune themselves into the vong "frequency". I see it as something very plausible in the future for force users. If nothing else then to look for the spots where something isn't.

Rogue Janson
11 November 2003, 12:01 PM
I'm still not entirely clear on this whole issue, and I don't know whether it's intentional or not on the authors' part.

The effects of Sever Force, as used by Nomi Sunrider are a little different to what happened to the Yuuzhan Vong, since it only blocks the individual from touching the Force, but not from anyone seeing them through it.

Whatever happened to the Yuuzhan Vong prevented the entire species, as well as all their servant organisms, from using or being sensed through the Force. It may have purged the Force so completely from them, they cannot even be affected by the Force at a physical level - though the books are inconsistent on this point. We now know, of course, that this was done by Zonama Sekot's parent, their home planet.

However, we now have three anomolies - 1) Telepathic biots; 2) 'Vongsense'; 3) Onimi.

1) I've talked about this before. Quite a few YV biots, from yammosks to lambents are telepathic. Though Force users are 'attuned' to this (see Vector Prime), it doesn't seem to come from the Force - a number of species in the SW galaxy have TP which may be similar.

2) Vongsense is initially described as a 'meta-linkage' between the Jedi and the Yuuzhan Vong. The lambent in Anakin's lightsabre sensed the Yuuzhan Vong, and being telepathically attuned to it, he could sense them through it. Jacen gained a metalinkage through his slave seed, Tahiri through her mental implants; I think even Luke gets a sense from his poisoning. Tuning into this sense, however, requires shutting off the Force, and it doesn't give the same range of powers as the Force, which supports the conclusion that it is simply a form of 'regular' telepathy.

3) By splicing yammosk cells with his own, Onimi is said to have reconnected with the Force. Quite why this might be is unclear, since yammosks don't seem to have anything to do with the Force - unless I'm wrong on point #1.

So I'm not sure about the 'different spectrum of the Force' view, since the Jedi who can sense them do seem to only have a 'metalinkage'. Also, if this is the case, why can no Yuuzhan Vong see in this 'spectrum'?

As for whether the Yuuzhan Vong will regain the ability to touch the Force, I think this will definitely happen, though I couldn't speculate on how long it'll take. If the Yuuzhan Vong can return to their homeworld and to peace, they can return to the Force.

Jedi Master Talon
11 November 2003, 05:09 PM
I'd say that the Vong will eventually be able to use the Force, when Sekot thinks they are ready. Think about it if Sekot's Parent can strip the Force why can't Sekot give it back to them later in time. I just can't wait for the new series to come out to see what the Vongs role in that ones going to be.

fury
11 November 2003, 05:44 PM
Perhaps it is also biological. And here's where you can argue metaphysics all day long.

New Yuuzhan Vong, born on Zonama Sekot, are surrounded by the Force. Combine that with whatever cultural changes that culminate from losing the warrior caste, and Sekot may grant these newborns the ability to belong once again to the Force.

As for any living member of the species "regaining" the Force, that may not be possible.

Concerning Onimi leading his way to the Force via yammosk, remember that yammosks are basically control freaks, they sought out any tool to control other beings. Having noticed the Force and being very sensitive to it (as a mental projection technique?) it made them aware of resources not in their repetoire. Or at least, that's how I imagined it being. Onimi had more intellect and knowledge of the Jedi to infer what all this meant to the big picture and was able to use it for his own purposes.

CaamasiJedi49
12 November 2003, 06:28 AM
Its not entirely true that the vong can't be affected by teh force. in teh UAA, its says some abilities like move object get a -10 on rolls, but work none the less. But in general, the fore can't affect them. Anywhos, I feel the Vong as a whole will be given their ability to use the force, but not after much time of thinking and reconciliation with Zonama Sekot. The children could also be given the force sooner then the parents since a child can learn new ideas and accept them more easily then an adult.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

Darth Fierce
12 November 2003, 10:18 AM
I agree that the Vong will likely one day return to being a able to using the Force. To some extent, you could see Zonama Sekot as the Vong version of Eden, and that Sekot removed their Force powers when it was obvious that they were going to use them for the wrong purposes. Once the Vong have proven themselves worthy of the Force, I'm sure it will return to them.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Otonashi
13 November 2003, 07:08 AM
The game in which I play a Jedi, I have proposed the following theory.
If sever force can be used to strip the force from a being, then could something similar return the force to a being?

Vongsence (cha)[/B]
]Requires the Force-Sensitive, Alter, and Battle Meditation feats
You can affect the Yuuzhan Vong in the Living Force. All Force skills applied to the Yuuzhan Vong are made at a -10 penalty.
Check: A Vongsence check grants a Force bonus on attack and defense rolls
Up to 4 +1
5-14 +2
15-24 +3
25-34 +4
35+ +5

Special: You can take 10 when making a Vongsence check, but you canít take 20. You cannot use the skills Battlemind and Vongsence at the same time without the High Force Mastery feat.
Time Activating Vongsence is a move action. The Force bonus lasts 10 rounds (1minute).
Vitality Point Cost: 2 plus vitality points equal to the bonus achieved. So, if the result provides a +2 Force Bonus, the vitality point cost is 4.

powalsh
14 November 2003, 07:54 AM
That is an interesting write up, but I see a few problems. The novels have made it very clear that force Sense and Vong sense are completly different so that only one type can be used at any given time. This would prevent even high force mastery. Additionally , there need to be prerequisites in place that call for sometype of Vong surgery, implant or shaping that would make the PC familiar with the Vong.
I might even go so far as to alter this whole concept to a feat instead. Make it similar to the Sense feat in the RCRB.

Rogue Janson
19 November 2003, 02:39 PM
I'd probably make basic Vongsense (like anakin had) a technique, requiring some kind of exposure to YV implants or similar and an advanced version (like Jacen) a feat.

Swordwraith
30 November 2003, 10:25 PM
I am going to throw my two cents into the hat here and agree with the sever force theory.

While yes, Nomi Sunrider, and Vergere stripped Ulic and Jacen of the force, they were, regardless of how powerful, still only individuals utilizing sever force.

Now, IMHO When an entire PLANET can use the force, I think sever force might apply to the species living on the planet at the time, in this case, the Yuuzhan Vong.

As a result, only the planet can return the force to them. Although the biological idea makes sense to me as well.

I have also changed my opinion

Kanner Ra'an
4 December 2003, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure the Yuuzhan Vong may ever be restored to the force, even if they want to be. Its a lot easier to destroy then it is to restore, and it was the origional homeworld, not Zonma Sekot, that caused whatever happened.

On the subject of bridging the gap and stats. My advice is not to even bring it into play. It seem to take someone very special to gain Vongsense. Even Luke Skywalker himself never did. I would preserve the uniqness and keep it strictly to those whom the novel named. However if you really want stats for vongsense, this is what i would use.


Force Feat: Vongsense.

Desciption: You have the ability to attune you force sensitivity to a much lower level that allows you to detect the yuuzhan vong.
Benifit: You can use the following force skills and feats on yuuzhan vong without a penalty.
See force, Telepathy, Empathy, heal another, Move Object, force strike, beast speech, battle meditation, and whatever else im forgeting.
Requirements: Force sensitive. See Force +8.
Must have had some form of extended telepathic contact with a yuuzhan vong creature while unable to use the force.
Special: It takes a full round action to switch between force sensitivity and Vong sensitivity. When in the vongsense the individual cannot use any other force skills, feats, or force dependant abilities other then the above mentioned and they may only be used on Yuuzhan Vong and their servents and technology.

Rogue Janson
5 December 2003, 03:21 AM
I'm not sure the Yuuzhan Vong may ever be restored to the force, even if they want to be. Its a lot easier to destroy then it is to restore, and it was the origional homeworld, not Zonma Sekot, that caused whatever happened.
I disagree. Well, I agree that destroying is easier than restoring, but just because something's difficult doesn't mean it's not going to happen. In my mind, the superiority of the light side means just that - persevering and succeeding in restoring/protecting/rebuilding despite the difficulties.

Darthspectre84
6 December 2003, 01:24 PM
Well this might be abit of topic but certain things were said:
-firstly that Zonama Sekot parent was a sentient world destroyed by its 'symbiotes'. But it did mention 'countless other sentient planets'.
-also Nos Choka said that fi the Vong were to fail the 'gods' would pick pick succesors like they did 3 times before.

As to if the vong can be restored to what they used to be..i would imagine so..but not after a long time.. And even then it will not wash away what other races will think of them so it was wise for Zonama Sekot to move to the Unknown regions. I would find it strange though for one day a Vong jedi to come :rolleyes:

Nova Spice
7 December 2003, 07:04 PM
-also Nos Choka said that fi the Vong were to fail the 'gods' would pick pick succesors like they did 3 times before.

You're right. This actually evokes an idea that never occurred to me before. Nas Choka did mention that.

Though it also occurs to me that the gods are not real. They're basically just imaginary incarnations of certain emotions--or in a more Star Wars sense, pieces of the all-encompassing Unifying Force. Now, supposing that there actually were three previous groups of people who were "Bearers of the True Way" prior to the Vong, it begs an important question.

Were these groups of people (alien species) stripped of the Force as well? I would think so, considering that the whole point of being followers of the "True Way" is choosing death and pain over life.

It's entirely possible that another species, one native to the galaxy far, far away, will follow the teachings of the Vong in the future, thus being stripped of the Force. It's an interesting point...might make a cool campaign setting. ;)

Darthspectre84
9 December 2003, 10:50 AM
It does :) but even though the Yuuzhan Vong Gods are not real they stem from something that is true. Like Harrar said the Priest caste knew many secrets about their fall from grace and stuff so one cannot dismiss some of the things the Vong say. And perhaps the other races were not stripped of the force..perhaps they remained symbionts of Yuuzhan'tar but were killed by other races.

Also they mention that they turned to war due to an invasion by another race....perhaps that race were the Chazrach? interesting thoughts...

Nova Spice if you make a campaign set in Yuuzhan Vong galaxy let me know....im interested in the storyline :D

Rogue Janson
9 December 2003, 01:24 PM
I would expect that the previous 'chosen' races were either wiped out, most likely by the Yuuzhan Vong, or enslaved by them. Perhaps the Chazrach are one of them...

Nova Spice
9 December 2003, 01:46 PM
Nova Spice if you make a campaign set in Yuuzhan Vong galaxy let me know....im interested in the storyline

Well, I'm currently running an NJO campaign that's been ongoing for about sixteen months now. Once we finish mine up in 2005, one of my PCs is taking over the reigns of GMing. We plan to play a political thriller campaign set prior to The Phantom Menace.

Perhaps one day, I might explore a campaign idea in the Yuuzhan Vong's old galaxy. Though by the looks of things, that opportunity won't arise for another few years. :D

Darthspectre84
10 December 2003, 06:39 AM
Any nice Vong creations you made then? :)

Ardent
11 December 2003, 07:19 AM
I'll just add my thoughts. Considering the entity that stripped the Yuuzhan Vong of the Force was the parent of Zonama Sekot, consider how many billions of years that entity had been developing an ego for. Zonama Sekot is infantile in its awareness and understanding of the Force. If the power to restore the Force to the entire Yuuzhan Vong species were in its grasp, it probably wouldn't be aware of it for quite some time.

All things considered, the plot unfolded more or less the way I thought it would, and I was more than a little amused at how quickly certain discombobulated plot points were tossed out (the Bothan ar'krai, for instance).

The Yuuzhan Vong have a long road to recovery, but with leaders like Harrar I have little doubt they'll make the journey successfully. Perhaps the most disturbing thought, at least to me, is the idea that the Yuuzhan Vong were all Force-sensitive. When the Force is restored to them, they'll be a huge contribution to the Force's energies, and if they should relapse into evil...well...