PDA

View Full Version : The Art of Semantics--Did the Jedi Purge Exist?



Nova Spice
29 January 2004, 07:10 PM
First off, I'd like to point out quite obviously that until Episode III hits the big screen, we can't truly have a wholistic view of the topic. With that in mind, however, it should be noted that many Star Wars fans are wondering about the long-time lore of the supposed "Jedi Purge."

With the rise of the Republic war machine in Episode II, it seems that perhaps the Jedi Purge and the Clone Wars could possibly be considered the same event. As is known, thousands of Jedi have already been wounded or killed, and many more are in certain danger. Is it possible that the supposition of a "Jedi Purge," outside the events of the Clone Wars, never existed?

It seems to me, that the Clone Wars are doing a fine job of killing off the Jedi. Perhaps this is the way Lucas meant for the Jedi to go "extinct" as opposed to a singular event?

Naturally, we all know that Vader never single-handedly finished off the entire Jedi Order. But, many of those that buy into the Jedi Purge theory (I'm not sure if I do or not), believe there is exemplary evidence that the galaxy turned on the Jedi, as seen by the anti-Jedi rhetoric expressed during the Galactic Civil War. Could it be possible that the public never really turned on the Jedi, and perhaps it was only after the Clone Wars ended and Palpatine's imperialization that the Jedi were blamed for starting the whole mess? Is it likely that Palpatine used the Jedi, after their destruction in the Clone Wars, as a scapegoat for the conflict due only to the fact that their order had been wiped out?

So what are your thoughts? Did the Jedi Purge exist or was the Clone Wars the true eradicator of the guardians of justice and peace?

Vanger Chevane
29 January 2004, 07:46 PM
I'd say that the majoritiy of Jedi losses had to be due to the Cone Wars themselves, but at some point Vader and others had to be out & about taking care of the surviving Jedi who threated The New Order.

In X-Wing: Krytos Trap, the Jedi Museum Corran Horn discovers after escaping Lusankya, implies most, if not all, of the Masters depicted there died in the Clone Wars, not as a result of direct Imperial Action.

AzmoDanakar
29 January 2004, 08:39 PM
Vanger brings a good point, one from a favorite book in fact. Being that it is EU, Uncle George is free to rip off form it or disregard it or completely anull its content. As to whether or not it "did" happen, at least in a currently defined canonical sense, we can only look to the films as source material.

I have always held what Kenobi said in ANH to be the greatest telling tale. He says that Vader, quote: "...helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father..."
Now with all things said by Kenobi, he is not telling everything, but he is telling the truth, from a certain point of view. His pain is evident so he feels guilt and loss, perhaps one he is responsible for in some way, but most likely he blames himself far more than is fair.

I personally want Ep III to reveal Vader as a murderous monster. That is the point, after all. His redemption loses value if he isnt at the very least a mass murderer. I do hope that he is shown or at least implied to be responsible for hunting and wiping out the Jedi... and not just the men... but the women...and the children... Padawans beware.. little orphan ani is out for blood..

Skreem
29 January 2004, 10:53 PM
My only "issue" with the current interpretation of a Jedi Purge being led by Vader - is how in the heck did Obi-Wan survive?

Although there is always room for "something" off-the wall, the things that come to mind at the moment are A: Vader thinks Obi-Wan is dead... which if it were by his own hands there would be no question (I doubt he would leave that to "chance" and he would make certain the deed was done), B: Vader allowed Obi-Wan to flee, and knowingly did not hunt him. (showing the spark of compassion for his old master.)

Notice that in ANH, Vader doesn't say, "I sense... a presence of someone I killed many years ago..." Which leads me to believe that Vader did not go off half-cocked and start hunting down the last remnants of the Jedi. Instead, I am more inclined to believe that after his turn to the darkside, he joins the war and kills more Jedi through the normal process of war, and then he put out a challenge to all remaining Jedi that he was the best Jedi around, and it was their duty as "Jedi masters" to come prove him otherwise. Knowing that any that were left would come - as there were so few Jedi remaining to stand-up to Vader, and with no one to oppose him, the Republic didn't stand a chance. He would also know that they would all face him one-on-one in single combat.

Going under the assumption that Obi-Wan "caused" the situation that ultimately creates Vader, he is probably too wrought with anguish/pain/self-doubt to go back and fight his prior padawan... again. Yoda - being the uber-cool far-seeing master of all Jedi, knew that he was necessary years from then, and would not risk confronting Vader, even so early in his dark-side career.

{shrug}

da_gm
29 January 2004, 11:22 PM
Yoda - being the uber-cool far-seeing master of all Jedi, knew that he was necessary years from then, and would not risk confronting Vader, even so early in his dark-side career.

I read somewhere (and canīt remember where!), that Yoda was hiding on Dagobah, because of the darkside cave there. With such a strong source of darkside force right next to him, the Emperor and Vader wouldn't be able to sense him, only the ambient darkside aura of Dagobah.
This would suggest, that the empire were indeed hunting the jedi who remained after the clonewar.

On a side note, i also read somewhere (again i can't remember the source!) that Aura Sing participated in the hunt on the jedi

Darth Fierce
30 January 2004, 04:35 AM
Personally, I believe wholeheartedly that the Jedi Purges "did" exist, and I think you get a major hint of why the Clone Wars and the Jedi Purges are not the same thing if you read (or re-read) AzmoDanakar's post. It's in those three simple words, "helped the Empire...."

From all I've seen and heard, the birth of the Empire does not occur until the Clone Wars are over and done with. Therefore, while many Jedi did lose their lives in the Clone Wars, the worst for them does not occur until afterwards.

Also keep in mind, folks, that Lucas has said that Episode III is to be the "darkest" of all the movies. Something like the Jedi Purges would fit the bill IMHO to make this statement true.

Edit: As to why Obi-Wan survives and hides out on Tatooine...my theory is that, even though Vader was "strong" enough of a being to handle being in orbit around the planet, that he probably would not be able to face being on the surface of the planet again where his beloved mother died. In my opinion, he would be crippled by the haunting memories and open himself up for attack. Therefore, Obi-Wan "knew" he was safe on Tatooine because Vader would never walk on its surface again.


As for how Yoda was hiding on Dagobah, I believe it is mentioned in "Heir to the Empire."

Darth Fierce :vader:

johnnyputrid
30 January 2004, 12:46 PM
Yet another consideration: During Palpatine's tenure as a Sith Lord we can reason that he had several goals to achieve during his time.

Goal - Attain a position of power within the galactic government
Result - Became Senator to his home system of Naboo

Goal - Train an apprentice usable as a tool to eliminate the Jedi
Result - Trained Darth Maul as a living weapon to serve the dark side

Goal - Bring emphasis to the growing level of corruption within the Senate and take whatever adavantages are made available
Result - Engineered the politcal downfall of Chancellor Valorum

Goal - Achieve the highest level of politcal power available
Result - Engineered the events leading up to the Battle of Naboo, causing his election to the Chancellorship

Goal - Cement his position with a formidable military force
Result - Used his influence to commission a clone army

Goal - Split the Republic into seperate factions in order bring about a state of warfare and anarchy
Result - Utilized various assets, including the charisma and wealth of his new apprentice Dooku, to destablize the Republic, creating the Seperatist Movement

Goal - Begin a war between the two factions of the formerly whole Republic
Result - Masterminded the events that led up to the Clone Wars

Goal - Bring about the utter end of the Jedi Order
Result - Turned public opinion against the Jedi (speculation); death of the Jedi by combat attrition during the Clone Wars; utlized the skills of his apprentice Darth Vader to hunt down any remaining Jedi

Goal - Become the ruler of the Galaxy
Result - Brought about the Empire and the New Order

It seems to me that part of Palpatine's overall plan included a large-scale war, which would result in a large number of Jedi deaths, weakening what would be his biggest obstacle towards galactic domination. The Jedi Purge and the Clone Wars would be two seperate events, both achieving a portion of his overall goals. Most of the public would assume the two events were unrelated and thus tend to emphasize the Jedi Purge as a larger event than what it actually was, not considering that most of the Jedi losses ocurred during the Clone Wars.

My theory may not end up holding much water after we find out the real deal in Episode III, but it seems to fit, given Palpatine's devious nature.

Durian Keldrona
30 January 2004, 02:29 PM
that sounds like about my idea of how I envisioned things happening.
I am curious when they started calling it the empire.

Darth Fierce
30 January 2004, 06:33 PM
Although I suppose we'll have to wait until Episode III to see how things play out, everything I ever heard about the inception of the Empire indicates that it is very sudden. Palpatine supposedly calls upon the Republic Senate to give him absolute power so that he can bring upon a new "golden age" for the galaxy. Given the state that the galaxy is in as of, and following, the Clone Wars most people appear to willingly give up their freedom of democracy in favor of an absolute ruler in hopes that such an action will restore the galactic government to its former glory. Thus, the Empire is born.

Remember the conversation on the government between Padme and Anakin in Episode II?

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
30 January 2004, 08:53 PM
Some interesting thoughts, folks. I appreciate all the input from various sources, as well as the films, in your arguments. Anyone else have any ideas on this subject? B)

Regis
30 January 2004, 09:48 PM
I can't really say anything that hasn't already been said.

Nicely put, gang!

Tinsel
31 January 2004, 12:45 AM
I think they were all killed by a comet, just like the dinosaurs. Or maybe they took up smoking. All those tv comericals cant be wrong, its unhealthy. Look at Yoda, it stunted his growth.

Rogue Janson
31 January 2004, 04:28 AM
The Clone Wars certainly killed a large number of the Jedi (impossible to say exactly what proportion) and were probably used to help turn public opinion against them.

The Jedi purge, I imagine, will have a number of features. The Jedi will be disestablished - the Republic will cut official links with the order, remove their priviliges responsibilities and respect. You can see a similar process in the NJO when the Jedi's are attacked for doing stuff like apprehending criminals that would previously have been considered part of their role.

The actual physical hunting down of the Jedi... For a long time I used to think that Grand Moff Tarkin's "he must be dead by now" referred to the fact that Obi-Wan would just be really old, but that's fairly clearly not the case. It's clear that the rising Empire used various methods to eliminate the Jedi (hence Vader doesn't go. Hence Tarkin's statement - he knows Vader didn't kill Obi-Wan (because he's just said he thinks Obi-Wan's alive), but he still thinks he much have been hunted down by the Empire's other agents by now.

Darth Vader was the most notorious Jedi hunter and the symbol of the purge. I imagine he went after the really tough Jedi. I'd say fairly confidently that bounty hunters will also be part of the purge and this may be shown in epIII (even if we don't see this so much in the film) - we know Aurra Sing was going to have a larger role, and she's a specialist Jedi hunter. As opinion turns against the Jedi, Palpatine will be able to use the Republic/Empire's legal system against the Jedi, bringing them up on fabricated charges, or passing legislation against them. The Jedi can then either face imprisonment (or execution) or attempt to flee - either way, Palpatine can twist it to his favour. Then there'll be the developing Imperial intelligence, security and military apparatus which will hunt down the last once the Empire is properly in control. As a final addition, more Jedi would probably be killed by Imperial forces making stands for justice and freedom.

Ronin
31 January 2004, 04:31 AM
I think Tinsel`s got a point....:D

But seriously, I don`t think we can use the EU books to predict much about Ep3.....I think film evidence is all we can really rely on...
and OB1s "helped hunt down..." line seems to be the one real piece of evidence...

I`m not so sure about any "anti-Jedi" sentiment within the general populace.....I don`t remember any film evidence....only EU.

BrianDavion
31 January 2004, 11:08 AM
true but most of the EU evidance is pretty damning, the bulk of the EU evidance is on holonet news.. and that is widely belived to be working pretty closely with Lucasfilm...

I suspect that even if the republic doesn't turn against th e jedi.. they will have reached the point where they don't particuklarly CARE

Codym
31 January 2004, 02:05 PM
I think the Jedi purge exsisted, most due to Ben's line about Vader hunting them down, and since it is doubtful that all the Jedi directly participated in the war (many would have been more support than frontliners, dealing with refugees, intelligence etc.) Palpatine couldn't rely on just the war to thin their numbers. Direct action would be needed.

However, concidering the way the prequels have worked so far, I am fully expecting Palpatine to have the destruction of the Jedi "forced upon him," much like his rise to power and the formation of his army was.

Regis
1 February 2004, 05:58 PM
Yeah, Palpatine is pretty slick like that.

That's why he's so cool! (from a certain point of view, of course)

da_gm
1 February 2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Darth Fierce
Palpatine supposedly calls upon the Republic Senate to give him absolute power so that he can bring upon a new "golden age" for the galaxy. Given the state that the galaxy is in as of, and following, the Clone Wars most people appear to willingly give up their freedom of democracy in favor of an absolute ruler in hopes that such an action will restore the galactic government to its former glory. Thus, the Empire is born.



Remember that in ep2 Palpatine is givven emergency power, until this crisis is over.
Technically it isnīt over, even at the end of ep6, the rebellion that forms in response to imperial opression could replace the separatists as problem, thus giving palpatine an axcuse to keep his emergency powers.

Rogue Janson
2 February 2004, 03:18 AM
I think it's quite likely that the state of emergency, once declared, will never be ended, wheter or not there's a serious threat - there's always something around that looks a bit like an emergency. That sort of thing tends to happen in real life.
Either that or by the time the powers do lapse, Palpatine has used them to completely reshape the Republic government.

BrianDavion
2 February 2004, 10:43 AM
I think the emergancy powers issue cna be looked at in comparison to hitler, wh om used the same trick.

MikeLynch
5 February 2004, 09:41 AM
One possible way Obi-Wan escaped the Purge would be that he cloned himself.

Remember that Zahn wanted Joruus to be a clone of Obi-Wan and Lucas flat-out forbade it. Perhaps he did so because he didn't want his thunder stolen.


and then he put out a challenge to all remaining Jedi that he was the best Jedi around, and it was their duty as "Jedi masters" to come prove him otherwise. Knowing that any that were left would come - as there were so few Jedi remaining to stand-up to Vader, and with no one to oppose him, the Republic didn't stand a chance. He would also know that they would all face him one-on-one in single combat.This doesn't seem likely. Jedi don't respond to taunts, not even when they're embattled and disenfranchised. Tarkin did say "HUNT DOWN and destroy the Jedi" -- it is much more in keeping with the Jedi tradition that any who survived the Clone Wars would go into hiding, with the goal of either mounting their own resistance, or just waiting for the Emperor to die or make a mistake they could exploit.


Hence Tarkin's statement - he knows Vader didn't kill Obi-Wan (because he's just said he thinks Obi-Wan's alive), but he still thinks he much have been hunted down by the Empire's other agents by now.Yes. Makes perfect sense.


we know Aurra Sing was going to have a larger role, and she's a specialist Jedi hunter.Yes!! Maybe she's the one Obi-Wan dupes. Way to tie the threads together.


As a final addition, more Jedi would probably be killed by Imperial forces making stands for justice and freedom.Rockin'. You just gave me an adventure idea. It's the young, innocent days of the Empire, and a bunch of ideologically fresh Imps are gonna chase after a Jedi (withOUT the help of Vader or any other supernatural edge).

Nova Spice
6 February 2004, 12:47 PM
I think it's quite likely that the state of emergency, once declared, will never be ended, wheter or not there's a serious threat - there's always something around that looks a bit like an emergency. That sort of thing tends to happen in real life.

Excellent thinking Janson. I've recently been thinking that perhaps some of the many "incidents" that occurred after the Clone Wars were forged by Palpatine himself, just to ensure that the "emergency powers" remained active.

And here's a thought. What if Palpatine wanted the formation of the Rebel Alliance? Could he be that devious, as to wish for a resistance movement just so he could maintain his dictatorial ways?

BrianDavion
6 February 2004, 01:41 PM
anyone play battletech? one of the factions in it, (the FWL) managed to turn a democracy into a heriditary monarchy via an "emergency powers" act. sounds a wee bit like palpies plan alright

Ardent
7 February 2004, 04:41 AM
The Jedi Purges did happen, there's no question about that (a quick glance around the galaxy shows it to be true -- and a logical conclusion about the rate of casualty in a war of attrition also show that there were some Jedi left over). The question really is: just how involved in them was Lord Vader? I think the answer is "not nearly as involved as the Inquisitors." Lord Vader holds a position roughly equivalent to Palpatine's vizier. He's obviously an intelligent man whose advice is to be heeded, he goes around quashing minor rebellions, he works very hard to maintain Palpatine's security, and he is pretty clearly a second-in-command type of character.

That said, his duties as vizier would, by and large, include some hunting of Jedi, but not so much as to make him more important to the Purge than any individual Inquisitor. What Lord Vader could do, moreso than any of the Inquisitors, is train Dark Siders. Which is exactly what the Emperor needed...both to maintain his Empire and to cultivate danger to it (so as to maintain people's faith in it).

Ronin
7 February 2004, 11:09 PM
Ardent, I agree with your points if we`re including the EU...

not including the EU removes Inquisitors, and other darksiders serving Palpy and Vader...
:( Ep3`s next year right? It can`t come soon enough, ne?

Heirophant_X
18 February 2004, 05:30 PM
Remember that everything Obi-Wan says is only true "from a certain point of view." I suspect that the majority of Jedi bought it in the Clone War. Or at least the Jedi Order was seriously weakened ...anyway.
Was there a Jedi Purge? I think that the Clone War(S) killed most of them, the actual purge was more like this:
Jedi come back from the wars to find out that it's their fault!
Palpatine is "forced" to bow to public pressure to abolish the Order.
Anakin renounces the Order and joins Palpatine's faction (betraying and "murdering" Anakin's memory. This triggers the events that culminate with the epic duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan where Ani is left for cut meat.
Meanwhile the propaganda machine and Imperial agents are taking care of the "veteran" Jedi when Darth Vader emerges as the Emperor's right hand. What job was left to finish is supervised by a large black-clad cyborg from the bridge of a Star Destroyer.

Snib Snub
20 February 2004, 12:07 PM
As far as the "State of Emergency" goes (or the "Duration of the Crisis" as Palpatine puts it in Ep2), the WEG Imperial Sourcebook (I think) indicates that Palpatine was given his powers under these conditions and never ended the "State of Emergency", but by the time such emergencies no longer truly existed, the Empire was already too far reaching for anyone to effect change through normal means, hence a rebellion.

It is possible, and I'm sure Ep3 will tell, that the Jedi learn the truth and realize they're fighting for the wrong side. Dooku did tell Obi-Wan the truth although disguised it as he knew Obi-Wan wouldn't believe him. In fact, Dooku left the Jedi Order to lead the Seperatists, that's perfect for framing the Jedi, the public doesn't know he's a Sith lord. Does this mean the Jedi will join the seperatists? Possibly, but I don't think so. I think the factions will start to blur once Palpatine's schemes are revealed. But now, Palpatine can say they've gone over to the side of the Seperatists and the Jedi have betrayed the Republic. This would account for the public's view of the Jedi turning for the worse.

I think the Purge as an event, is more than a singular event, it's a complex scheme devised ever since Palpatine started training Darth Maul and vying for supreme power. I think the Purge started with the Clone Wars and continued for years afterwards....and the public never knew Palpatine was behind it. The fool Jedi betrayed the Republic and the Republic/Empire was forced to destroy them. Then propaganda started to erase their order from the public consciousness. The Jedi were gone and their ways were believed to be "Sorcerous" or "Hokey religions" and there was none left (or willing) to dispute that.

Rogue Janson
20 February 2004, 02:30 PM
Remember that everything Obi-Wan says is only true "from a certain point of view." I suspect that the majority of Jedi bought it in the Clone War. Or at least the Jedi Order was seriously weakened ...anyway.
Was there a Jedi Purge? I think that the Clone War(S) killed most of them
From a realistic point of view, thinking about the statistics and casualty rates, I think it's unlikely the majority of the Jedi were killed in the Clone Wars. It follows that if the Jedi start taking unacceptable casualties, they will be more cautious and casualty rates will decline. As long as the Republic has some other forces that can be used, Jedi casualties may be significant but will have a limit.
However it is clear that Jedi casualties were large and the Jedi Order was significantly weakened by the Clone Wars, and possibly a large number of the most experienced knights and masters were killed.

Ardent
20 February 2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson
However it is clear that Jedi casualties were large and the Jedi Order was significantly weakened by the Clone Wars, and possibly a large number of the most experienced knights and masters were killed.

Just a slight semantic disagreement. I think it eminently possible and respect the sentiment that perhaps a large number of the most combat-experienced knights and masters were killed.

I just find it wholly unlikely that every (or, indeed, a vast majority thereof) knight or master who could be considered a font of information on the Force (allowing Obi-Wan and Yoda, of course) was struck down. It seems unconditionally implausible.

That, of course, would necessitate some sort of Jedi Purge. In my estimation, the only remaining variable is X...or the size of that Purge.

Rogue Janson
21 February 2004, 02:26 AM
Yeah, I think you're right there. I was wondering actually, how many Jedi would even get involved in the fighting. AotC gives the impression that pretty much every Jedi is combat, but there must be a number who are too old and/or infirm, others who are pacifistic and others who are completely engaged in other tasks.

Darth Fierce
21 February 2004, 06:21 AM
If you follow the EU, as I know many of you do, the Jedi Purge has to exist in one form or another following the Clone Wars.

As an avid reader of the "Star Wars Tales" comic series, I know that the "Dark Woman" doesn't get offed until after Episode III. I mean, it's at the point where Mara Jade is old enough to be one of the Emperor's Hands. In fact there's a big argument between Mara and Vader on who will get the "honor" of eliminating the "Dark Woman" for the Emperor before Vader is eventually chosen to be the one to do it.

Yes, many Jedi will likely meet their ends during Episode III, but there's quite a mopping-up action to be done afterwards (which we know doesn't quite get finished).

Darth Fierce :vader:

Jan Tolbara
21 February 2004, 09:53 PM
A number of you are closer than you think!

While attending Rustycon in the Seattle area in January, a movie critic friend of mine that gives a report on movie gossip and news on upcoming movies in the sci-fi genre each year at the con, gave some spoilers on Episode III, which he received from a contact at Lucasfilm.

SPOILER! (highlight to read)

I forget the EXACT order of events, but this is what I recall.

After a LONG lightsaber battle (about 20 minutes of screen time) with Obi-Wan that leaves him severely injured and scarred, Anakin is rescued by Palpatine, fully converted to the Dark Side and transformed into Darth Vader. After that, travels to the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and wipes out just about every Jedi present there, including the children. Once that's done, Anakin activates an emergency beacon that calls out to every Jedi in the galaxy to return to the temple, where he waits for them to arrive and be slaughtered. Yoda and Obi-Wan arrive to stop Anakin around the same time Sidious arrives. Yoda and Sidious go at it, where Yoda gets his butt kicked and barely survives the fight. Obi-Wan is forced to retreat, but not before reversing the emergency beacon to tell any remaining Jedi to not return to the temple and to go into hiding instead.

Jake Sunspot
22 February 2004, 12:33 AM
That sounds really cool. If this info is correct EPIII could be something the prequels have yet to be... Actually good. :P

wolverine
22 February 2004, 02:38 AM
If that highlights spoiler is true.. all i can say is WOOOOOWOW

Nova Spice
23 February 2004, 01:17 PM
That's some juicy info Jan! What a wicked scene that would be! Although I do hope we don't see Vader taking out the Younglings--that might be a bit extreme.

johnnyputrid
23 February 2004, 02:19 PM
Nick Gilliard, who is the stunt coordinator for the prequels in case you didn't know, has stated that we will see the Younglings fighting. This came from one of his online chats, if I'm not mistaken. So far Nick has yet to disappoint us with info. Even Rick McCallum's daughter gets a cameo as one of them.

So with that said, I think it's highly likely that we'll get to see Anakin/Vader take out some of the Younglings. Remember that in AotC, Anakin remarked to Padme that he killed all of the Tuskens, including the children. It won't be anything new for him, just another day at the office.
I hope that doesn't sound too heartless, but Anakin DOES become an evil dude. They don't really need to show any of them getting killed, they could just imply it. A scene of Anakin slaughtering a bunch of kids would blow any chance for the film to get even a PG-13 rating. But it seems likely that the Jedi Temple will get taken over by Anakin, who will probably be leading a bunch of clone/stormtroopers.

Jan Tolbara
23 February 2004, 05:07 PM
You think the previous one was bad?!

SPOILER (highlight to read)

Another scene involves a nine-month-pregnant Padme running into someplace with Obi-Wan to try to stop Anakin. Anakin believes that she has betrayed him, picks her up using the Force and throws her harshly against the wall . . . several times!

johnnyputrid
23 February 2004, 05:36 PM
Good stuff, Jan. This sounds like the betrayal that McCallum referred to as "shocking". Perhaps the Obi-Wan/Anakin uber-duel results from this very event. Sounds like we can forget a "PG" rating.

Ardent
24 February 2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by johnnyputrid
Good stuff, Jan. This sounds like the betrayal that McCallum referred to as "shocking". Perhaps the Obi-Wan/Anakin uber-duel results from this very event. Sounds like we can forget a "PG" rating.

To be honest, I think the film may get trimmed to keep a PG rating. GL may be a fool, but he's not dense. A lift from PG to PG-13 kills probably a quarter of your potential audience. Maybe a third. Or would if American parents cared what their kids watched...

Avatar
16 March 2004, 12:48 PM
you are all forgetting her that palpatine is a sith.
Mortal enemy to the jedi. it is part of what he is he must hunt down and destroy them.

Nova Spice
16 March 2004, 05:17 PM
Mortal enemy to the jedi. it is part of what he is he must hunt down and destroy them.

That's certainly true, Avatar. However, my initial point was not meant to imply that I didn't believe Palpatine wanted to finish off the Jedi. My initial point was the method he used to go about it. Was there an actual Jedi Purge? Or did the Clone Wars take care of that all on its own?

I'm not saying I don't believe in the Jedi Purge. I'm simply putting forth an additional idea concerning the form that the Purge may have taken.

At any rate, there's been some very intriguing ideas in this thread. Nice discussion, everyone. ;)

johnnyputrid
16 March 2004, 07:09 PM
Let's consider just how many Jedi there are during the Clone Wars. The Jedi have involved themselves in a military operation, which basically turns the Jedi Temple into a tactical ops center. The Temple itself is huge, and would require a very large number of people to maintain, especially with a crisis as big as the Clone Wars going on. Jedi who can't, or won't fight would probably do what they could from there.

Most of the sources I've seen say that the Jedi number around 10,000 during this time, so let's do some simple math. These are all guestimated numbers, so of course it shouldn't be taken as fact.

Jedi Council - 11 (not counting Yoda)
Jedi killed at Geonosis - 200
Younglings - 200(?)
Jedi Instructors, Healers, and Temple Staff - 3,500(?)
Jedi on extended assignments - 2,000(?)

That leaves 4,099 Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars, to include the 11 members of the Council who don't make it, as combatants and pilots to die of combat attrition. If the temple gets invaded and overrun as most of think, that's another 3,700 dead Jedi, including the Younglings. That leaves us 2,000 Jedi assigned elsewhere in the galaxy. Now we know of several Jedi who do survive, like Yoda, Obi-Wan, Kam Solusar, and others. But if the Jedi kept detailed records of their missions, these last 2,000 or so Jedi shouldn't be too hard to track down, especially with a powerful figure like Vader at the helm of this operation.

So instead of 10,000 Jedi to take out, we're now left with only a few thousand, with only about half of them dying from actual combat. If 4,000 combatants seems like a large number, remeber that the Republic and the Jedi are engaging the Separatists on multiple fronts, and would likely field a large number of pilots as well as ground commanders. And with over a million clones fighting, 4,000 Jedi acting as commanders isn't a whole lot.

Just some more late night rambling from johhnyp.

Darth Fierce
17 March 2004, 03:35 AM
Again, from what I've read and seen on the web nowadays, it's an almost certainty that the "Jedi Purge" was a separate event from the Clone Wars.

One of the spoiler sites I've seen indicates that many noteworthy Jedi will be killed off in Episode III, but, without going into too much detail, due to the heroics and intelligence of one of the main characters in the movie, many of the Jedi will supposedly go into hiding during the time between Episode III and IV and beyond.

Just my two credits worth...

Darth Fierce :vader:

Vanger Chevane
17 March 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Darth Fierce
Again, from what I've read and seen on the web nowadays, it's an almost certainty that the "Jedi Purge" was a separate event from the Clone Wars.

One of the spoiler sites I've seen indicates that many noteworthy Jedi will be killed off in Episode III, but, without going into too much detail, due to the heroics and intelligence of one of the main characters in the movie, many of the Jedi will supposedly go into hiding during the time between Episode III and IV and beyond.

Just my two credits worth...

Darth Fierce :vader:

This makes a great deal of sense. Prior to EP3 the Jedi are simply to strong & numerous for there to be a Purge. With their numbers & effectiveness seriously weakened by the losses during the Clone Wars, along with Palpatine's rise in power toward Emperordom, then wiping out a significan't majority of the Jedi becomes reasonable.

Of course, there's bound to be the odd survivors. Has anyone tried to tally up just how many did survive, who they were, and for how long?

We know for certain about Kenobi, Yoda, Kam Solusar's <i>father</i>, Ikrit (who revives during NJO), but are there others mentioned across the EU we can verify survived the Purge at least for some time during the Imperial Era?

Darth Fierce
18 March 2004, 03:49 AM
The Dark Woman and Quinlan Vos are two Jedi who come to mind as far as those who survived the Purge at least for some point into the Rebellion Era...at least that's according to the Star Wars Tales comics.

The Dark Empire trilogy also mentions a few...a descendant of Nomi Sunrider, and Empatyjos Brand (sp.?), whose star system was located in a very isolated pocket of space.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Darthspectre84
18 March 2004, 10:35 AM
My personal view is that the Jedi were in comparitively large numbers in the Clone Wars and Palpatine used the Separitists to cull their number...to make it easier for his New Order to control the galaxy. I say by EP III we will be seeing fewer jedi...and i mean alot fewer.

Also the Dark Woman survived till Vader tracked her down...not sure what time period this is as in i dont know if it is before EP IV or after it

Vanger Chevane
18 March 2004, 01:53 PM
Vima-da-Boda was a prisoner on kessel, and taught Kyp Durron some basics about his Force Ability, but AFAIK is alo portrayed as a Fallen Jedi.