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Corwin
8 February 2004, 08:33 PM
Maybe we’ll get an answer to just this question when the TMP Infinities series comes out, but what do you all think would have happened if Obi-Wan had died fighting Darth Maul, instead of Qui-Gon?

It seems to me this one event would have had a profound impact on the entire Star Wars saga. Would Anikan still have gone to the Dark Side, would there still be a Darth Vader, would Qui-Gon been able to beat Dukoo, his former master, in a dual ending the Clone Wars before they had even fully started?

In my mind I see several of the following things happening as a result of this scenario. First of all, under Qui-Gon’s guidance, Anikan would have been a far cry from the reckless, impulsive, and arrogant, spoiled child we know. To Anikan, Qui-Gon represent a surrogate father. Obi-Wan was more of an older brother figure, and no one likes having to take orders from your older brother (just ask my younger one).

Further, Obi-Wan was not all that much older or even more mature, then Anikan when Obi-Wan took him as his Padawan. With the great wisdom and experience of his age, Qui-Gon would have stood a much better chance of teaching Anikan to resist the Dark Side.

From that point, the effects on the Star Wars story are anyone’s guess. Your thoughts? :)

Darth_Cassed
8 February 2004, 08:40 PM
I don't think Obi-Wan's death and Qui-Gon's training of Anakin would have changed Anakin that much. The whole point of the saga wasthat he was destined for it, I'm not sure Qui-Gon could have changed that. While he may have slowed it down, it would have happened eventually.

Palpatine would still have found a puppet for his war besides Dooku, and he also played a part in Anakin's life. Remember, Palpatine helped corrupt and turn Anakin.

Spicemonger3
8 February 2004, 11:03 PM
How about if Qui Gon had died during his first fight with Maul on Tatooine? What event's would that have set into motion?

JediJester
14 February 2004, 09:29 AM
I think that Qui Gon would have been able to temper Anakin's wrecklesness better than Obi-Wan could ever have (since he'd already delt with very similar traits in Obi-Wan to judge from what was being said about Anakin and Obi-Wan). I still think that Padme and Palpatine, being the briliant manipulator that he is, would still have bee Anikin's downfall.

If Qui-Gon had died in the first fight with Darth Maul on Tatooine, I think the story would have had a completely different outcome. After all, Qui-Gon was the one who was insistant that Anakin be trained in the ways of the Force and actually had the will to defy the Jedi Council. If he had died, Anakin wouldn't have been allowed to train as a Jedi. Remember, Qui-Gon wasn't allowed to take Anakin as an apprentice, but he did go against the Council's wishes and have Anakin tag along and then had Obi-Wan promise to train him.

Errin Orwain
15 February 2004, 06:26 AM
Lets not forget Qui Gon's abilities with the force, "don't center on your anxieties, young Padawan, concentrate on the Living Force". I think that Qui-Gon would have been better able to notice the changes in Anakin, and might have been able to figure out who was behind it. Even if he didn't root out Palpy Anakin would have had more respect for Qui-gon then he had for Obi-wan due to Qui-gon's higher mastery of the force and combat techniques, so I think Anakin would have done what he was told by Qui-gon on Genosis and held back to let Qui-gon take the lead in the fight with Dooku, which would have ended in Dooku's death; the discovery of the Death Star plans and major changes in the years to come: no Darth Vader, no Luke or Leia, the discovery of Palpy as Darth Sideous, the death of Palpy at the hands of Qui-gon; Anakin; and Yoda. Long live the Republic!

xyle_rune
15 February 2004, 01:19 PM
???
A Phantom Menace Infinities

Here's is something I WANNA KNOW
cuz i cant find em in Canada, at least Empire and Jedi Infinities, what happens at the end of those?
and what are the changes?
Empire is luke died in the snow storm
what happens in both??

BrianDavion
15 February 2004, 05:12 PM
cuz i cant find em in Canada, at least Empire and Jedi Infinities

you should be able to, we have them here in victoria

Errin Orwain
15 February 2004, 05:47 PM
xyle_rune,
I sent you an e-mail with a cool Empire Infinite that I got from the Online Journel.

Darth_Cassed
15 February 2004, 06:39 PM
All off-topic posts can be said in a Private Message guys ;) Let's please stay on Corwin's original topic concerning his specific Inifnities case.

I think there are many, many different directions this can go in. And the truth is, it's up to the GM. ANYTHING can result from this as long as there is a reasonable explanation. There's the key to Infinities: If you can't give a reasonable explanation, it's out the window. The plot has to remain plausable, as any normal campaign would.

Now I think here Darth Vader may have been averted. Simply because when Anakin fights Obi-Wan and falls into the volcano, Qui-Gon may have prevented the falling or possibly the whole battle.

Qui-Gon may have even figured out Palpatine's other side. Who knows? As long as you have an explanation for why and how, it doesn't matter.

BrianDavion
16 February 2004, 01:47 PM
why would qui-gon have figured palpy out, no one else did.

Errin Orwain
16 February 2004, 06:48 PM
because he is better at feeling the living force than Obi-wan, and therefore could have sensed the growing darkness in Anakin and timed when it would get worse to coincide with his talks with Palpy

Corwin
16 February 2004, 09:30 PM
Since even Yoda’s sight in the Force was clouded, I don’t think Qui-Gon would have been able to sense Palpantine through the Force with any greater success then his master’s master.

However, I do think he would have stood a much better chance of figuring things out through more conventional means. Since, as Errin Orwain pointed out, Anakin would have more likely held back when fighting Dooku (both because of greater respect for Qui-Gon, and due to the increased maturity and discretion he would have gained under him) Dooku would have died on Genosis. It’s been commonly accepted here that Obi-Wan and Anakin could have beaten Dooku had they coordinated their attacks. It’s therefore resonable to assume that Anakin and Qui-Gon, who would have been a high-level master by that time , would have very handily defeated Dooku, most likely killing him (though the possibilities of Dooku being taking prisoner are intriguing, assuming Dooku would have let himself be taken -my money says if the Jedi don’t kill him, he eats his lightsaber).

With Dooku defeated it is highly likely the Jedi would have found clues as to the identity of Darth Tyranus’s master. Also, with Obi-Wan dying on Naboo, as in the scenario I envisioned, there’s zero chance of Anakin fighting Obi-Wan and falling into a volcano. The chances are very real that with Qui-Gon alive the Sith would have been wiped out before Palpantine could created his new Sith Empire.

wolverine
17 February 2004, 03:21 AM
If Quigon was alive and Obiwan was not, i would say most of the stuff from ATOC would not have happened. IMO, he would have kept anakin away from Padme (imo), and so that budding relationship would not have arose. AS to what would have happened if he was captured as obiwan was, IMO he would not have...

johnnyputrid
17 February 2004, 05:40 AM
Most of what everyone has said here makes sense. But having read most of the Jedi Apprentice series (yes, they're meant for young kids, but they're actually pretty good), I would say not a whole lot would change.

The Jedi Apprentice series shows Qui-Gon to be a very strict, detached, and somewhat confusing Jedi Master. He constantly had young Obi-Wan on edge, never knowing whether or not he was doing things right, or just angering his master. I think that with Anakin as an apprentice, who is already very emotional and somewhat rebellious, the two would seriously get on each other's nerves, despite Qui-Gon's belief in Anakin. Qui-Gon would most certainly have suspected Anakin's feelings for Padme and his growing frustation and anger, and wouldn't have agreed to send Anakin to Naboo with her. This would of course drive a serious wedge between the two, ensuring that Anakin's eventual downfall would happen anyway.

Now just imagine if Yoda would have trained Anakin....

BrianDavion
17 February 2004, 07:43 AM
well each master is diffrent i n his own way but aye, it seems the whole Dooku--->qui-gon ----> obi-wan, line has troubles.. relating with their padawan.

Corwin
17 February 2004, 08:49 AM
Some good points johnny, but in the end I don’t think it quite all adds up. For one thing, if you’ve read the Jedi Aprentice books, then you know Qui-Gon accepted Obi-Wan as a Padawan reclutantly. In those books (especially early on) Qui-Gon is still adjusting to training a Jedi apprentice again. By the time of TMP I would imainge that after training one Jedi to Knighthood, he would be far more comfortable in that role.

Also, you have to take in to account the personality diffrences between Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Anakin. While Obi-Wan frequently chaffed under Qui-Gon, we should remember that Obi-Wan is a very deliberate, careful person. On the other hand, his master had a history of routinely defying the Jedi Council (something which Obi-Wan seemed somewhat consternated by), and was generally as much of a renegade as he could get away with being.

With these traits in mind, we find that Qui-Gon is much closer in temeperment to Anakin then Obi-Wan. The very things that sometimes strained the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan relationship would only strengthen the Qui-Gon/Anakin one. Not only would the central personality clash which lead Anakin to the Dark Side be removed, but he would have a master who would better be able to understand, and deal with, his rebellious nature.

JediJester
17 February 2004, 09:05 AM
I think Qui-Gon would have had a huge bonus over Obi-Wan if he'd trained Anakin in the department of respect. When Anakin first met the two, Qui-Gon was the master and Obi-Wan was the padawan. The first impression you have of someone tends to stick to them for quite a while. Though Obi-Wan was Anakin's master, Anakin would still see him as the padawan while all he'd known Qui-Gon as was the "all-knowning Master Jedi". The more a person respects someone tends to cause things that person says to carry more weight. Plus, Qui-Gon had that added bonus that he'd arranged for Anakin's freedom. Yes, Qui-Gon wasn't able to get free Shmi, but because he'd freed Anakin, he'd be in a better position to explain it.

As for Anakin being rebellious, I got the feeling from TPM that Obi-Wan had been that way as well (and still was at moments). And in AotC, I thought Anakin's rashness was compared to Obi-Wan in his early days. If I am right in these facts, I would say that Qui-Gon already had some experience already in dealing with rebelious and rashness. At the time Obi-Wan took Anakin on as an padawan, he was still used to being the reciever of lessons and not the giver. I also got the impression that he was using the same methods that Qui-Gon had used to train him, but wasn't successful at getting the message of those

As for Anakin going to Naboo with Padme, that was the Council's decision and Obi-Wan was actually against it. In fact, I thought that Obi-Wan's exact arguement was that he didn't think that Anakin was ready for an assignment on his own. I also think that Qui-Gon was known for not doing exactly as the Council wanted, but I don't think he ever directly defied them so Anakin would still be taking Padme to Naboo alone.

In summation, I don't doubt that Qui-Gon would have had a much greater chance of keeping Anakin from going to the dark side. Whether or not he would have been successful is all a matter of chance. Would Anakin still have ended up alone with Padme? Would he still have gone to Tattooine and slaughtered the sand people? Would Qui-Gon have been able to sense Palpatine putting his hooks into Anakin (I'd guess no on this once since Palpy was just such a slick operator)?

Anyways, just a few thoughts of mine. I could be way off base, I have been before and I probably will be again.

Darth L33T
18 February 2004, 04:35 AM
What if Qui-Gon had just let Jar Jar get squished by that transport during the landing sequence?

Imagine the real world consequences; Episode I would have gotten rave reviews!:D

johnnyputrid
18 February 2004, 05:20 AM
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, Corwin. Its been my experience that two people with similar temperaments rarely get along, especially with two rebellious personalities like Qui-Gon and Anakin. I think that Qui-Gon's training methods, despite having matured with Obi-Wan under his wing, would still have made Anakin feel as if he was being "held back". Qui-Gon might have been able to better aid Anakin in dealing with his tendency towards anger and recklessness, but the result would have been the same. Probably. Maybe. I don't know.

But let's remember also that Anakin had a second mentor, Palpatine himself. Even the brief scene between Palpatine and Anakin in AOTC makes it pretty clear that the future Emperor has been planting some interesting notions in Anakin's head. I doubt even Qui-Gon's influence could have done anything about that. Palpatine was a long range planner, and any changes that this Infinities version of TPM would have brought about could be easily blended into his current plans.

Its too bad Qui-Gon failed his Farseeing check with Anakin. Darth Maul's speeder crushing the little kid would have saved the galaxy a whole a lot of misery.

Darth_Cassed
18 February 2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by johnnyputrid

Its too bad Qui-Gon failed his Farseeing check with Anakin. Darth Maul's speeder crushing the little kid would have saved the galaxy a whole a lot of misery.

However, like you said: Palpatine is a long-range planner. He replaced Maul so easily, he can replace whoever he needs. Maybe the successor would not have been as evil as Vader, but it would have served its purpose.

Also, if Anakin had been killed and the Empire not come to be, there'd also be no Luke Skywalker in the Jedi Order ;). A definite bonus for me!

JediJester
18 February 2004, 10:52 AM
Jar Jar getting killed at the begining... now there's a thought. That would have solved everything.

With the root of all evil out of the way, Palpatine would have quit trying to sieze ultimate power. Anakin would have forgiven the sand people. Dooku would have destroyed the Death Star plans. Wow, they were after the wrong guy all along.

Darth_Cassed
18 February 2004, 04:37 PM
Shall we keep going Corwin? Or do you get the idea? :)

Seriously, I think I've spouted all that I can think of.

Maybe Qui-Gon overhears one of the little speeches he gives Anakin about how powerful he is and puts an end to it once and for all ;). Just conveniently throw some evidence lying on his desk, and it's good! Then Dooku rallies the seperatists and becomes the Emperor of the Sepertatists, and the galactic war takes a turn.

Treefrog
10 March 2004, 09:51 PM
Here's my idea:

Everything in TPM goes as is depicted in the film, except that QG is still fighting Maul when OW manages to get back into the fray. In the ensuing battle OW is killed by Maul. Maul is killed by QG. Upon returning to the Jedi Temple, the Council relents and allows QG to train Anakin, in light of what happened on Naboo.

Fast forward a few years. Anakin is maturing in the Force rapidly. Dooku resigns (?) from the Jedi Order and invites QG with him. After some seriouse contemplation, QG decides to decline the invitation.

Fast forward to AotC... Padme is still the target of assassination. QG and Anakin are assigned as protectors. After protecting Padme from Zam Wessel, QG is assigned to track down Jango Fett; while Anakin is assigned to protect Padme on Naboo.

Anakin still has the nightmares (Except that QG encourages Anakin to help his mother, which stops Anakin from going "Ginsu" on the Sand People). Anakin and Padme fall in love.




What does everyone think so far.............?

Errin Orwain
12 March 2004, 05:59 AM
Not bad. I would be inclined to think that being able to help his mother and not killing the sand people after taking Qui-gon's advise could help keep him on track as a Jedi. Also have you decided what will happen in the duel at the end of EP II, Qui-gon is older and more experienced the Obi-wan and might be able to take down Dooku with or without Anakins help.

wolverine
12 March 2004, 11:35 AM
Good point Errin. if he found his mother ok, would that have stopepd him switching?? Hard to tell.

AS for the Douku Quigon fight. While yes, Qui was a better swordsman, IMO he still would have needed anikins help.

Errin Orwain
12 March 2004, 02:19 PM
true. however while in EPII Anakins rushed in and got his butt handed to him, I think Anakin would have been more likely to listen to Qui-gon's instructions to hang back & follow his lead, especially if previous advice from Qui-gon had helped him save his mother.

Treefrog
14 March 2004, 07:13 PM
I think that the duel between QG, Anakin and Dooku would also have turned out differently. First of all, Anakin would'nt have rushed in if QG had asked him to, unlike in the film.

But on a different note, what if during this battle, Dooku had killed QG and then Anakin would have really lost it, considering Anakin felt that QG was the closest thing to a father (and I hate sounding like him when I said that....lol).