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Darth Fierce
13 February 2004, 04:38 AM
Last night I was sitting at home considering the different Infinities questions that have come up on the forums over the span of their existence, and a question crossed my mind...

What if Thrawn had not been assassinated at the end of The Last Command? What sort of changes would this have meant to the SW timeline?

--Would the Chiss society have been more involved with galactic polictics earlier than they were?

--Would any of our "heroes" be dead due to Thrawn's continued rule of the Empire?

--Would the New Republic have been able to withstand the pressures that Thrawn placed upon it?

and finally...

--How would a confrontation between Thrawn's Empire and the Yuuzhan Vong forces have turned out?

Just a few questions to "rev" your creative brains. Let me know how you think such an Infinities campaign might play out...

Darth Fierce :vader:

Darthspectre84
21 March 2004, 05:36 AM
Thought i would answer since no one else has ;)

I would think the Chiss would still not be as involved in Galactic Politics cause Thrawn no matter what he did was considered a 'rebel' among his kind due to his reason to attack first. Even though the Chiss do serve him i think it would kind of been a split society. And though Thrawn wishes the Chiss to be more open i think he does not want to his people divided or break into a civil war.

Would the heroes be alive? well i think that perhaps one or two might be dead while the others are on an endless run from the Thrawns Empire. And id ont think the New Republic could withstand the attacks of Thrawn....they wouldnt have won if the Noghri had not killed him. But thats my own opinion.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong....i think Thrawn would have brought a faster reply than the New Republic but not sure if he could have defeated them. Cause no matter what you cannot exactly prepare for the Unknown which the Yuuzhan Vong were. Plus they can be considered an extremely ruthless species and quite unpredictable in situations.

And even if Thrawn was winning the Yuuzhan Vong are also quite well known for their very effective suicidal tactics....ramming, using Dovin basals to swallow ships whole.

Ronin
21 March 2004, 05:59 AM
Not sure how Thrawn'd get his hands on Vong art to study....but I'm sure once he'd had a bit of time to study their culture, he'd tear them a new as-
ahem;)

BrianDavion
21 March 2004, 12:08 PM
I think Thrawn would be shocked and amazed to discover, the Vong HAVE no art.

Darth Fierce
21 March 2004, 01:33 PM
I wouldn't say that the Vong have no art. In fact, there's every indication that some of their bioengineered creations fill exactly that function. Take, for instance, Shimrra's throne. Granted, it was at least partially a dovin basal, but it was artwork nonetheless.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Solo666
22 March 2004, 05:17 AM
Thrawn would capture a master shaper after expending dozens of Noghri teams. Until that point it would be a galactic tug of war. After capturing the shaper and learning some Vong art, Alpha Red would have been implemented, assuming he had not yet won.

Talonne Hauk
22 March 2004, 08:51 AM
I agree that Thrawn would have had no qualms about using Alpha Red, but I don't think he would have gotten to the point where he'd be able to use it. For one thing, outside of Joruus C'Baoth, Thrawn had no Force user in his employ. The Jedi did do a good job in defending in the early days against the Vong. So Thrawn may have ended up MORE ragtag than the New Republic had been.
I think the Solo children would all have been more like Luke; living weapons, because they would have been living during constant wartime, and probably wouldn't have access to other teachers besides Luke. This probably would drive Jacen to the dark side, as his philosophical view of the Force never would have emerged.
I think Mara Jade would have been assassinated by Thrawn, as a matter of pique. I'm not sure any of the other main characters would be dead, though. They are fairly adept at keeping low profiles.

Darthspectre84
22 March 2004, 09:06 AM
Actually it is a two way thing if Thrawn was there or not.

In the current timeline the New Republic ignored the Yuuzhan Vong threat and the Yuuzhan Vong were only defeated a number of times becaue of the Jedi.

While if it was Thrawn he would not have ignored the threat and would have defended the Outer Rim better but would suffer because his troops would not as much skill as a Yuuzhan Vong.

So its just two things; one has a delayed counter attack by the galaxy while the other a quick defense.

Kanner Ra'an
28 March 2004, 12:36 PM
Were Thrawn running the galaxy when the Yuuzhan Vong invaded things would have been differant. I highly doubt he would have defended the Outer Rim much, as it isn't that tactically valuable. However their would not be the buericratic delay we saw in the NR senate. The forces would have been mobilized very quickly and probably the advance would have been stopped near the mid rim where both sides would become entrenched. Then it would devolve into a standard war and probably rage on for a very long time as both sides would be highly established and numerous in number.

And i dont think the existance or lack their of of Yuuzhan Vong art would really impact Thrawn. People make it sound as if Thrawns got the magical power that if he sees art he automatically knows how to win. What Thrawn did was understand culture and managed to uderstand how other races would think and react. For example the logical tendancies of the Elom. He could determine this through art, as that was an obvious interest of his, but that does not mean he would be helpless without it.

Jame
29 March 2004, 08:06 AM
Can anyone tell me what Alpha Red is, and where in the European Union* it is? Thanks!

*: Yes, I know it's really the Expanded Universe. But both have the same initials (EU), so I'm making a dumb pun.

wolverine
29 March 2004, 12:01 PM
Just after the 2 novels rebel stand, and rebel dream, we learn that alliance agents under code blue have been working on a project to defeat the vong. this they code named Agent red, and is a biological agent that targets vong tech, and life forms..... There was great uproar from the jedi, against it's use, and cause of that, it got put on hold...

Vergree 'destroyed' the alliance stockpiles, but they managed to make a little more, which DID get used as a test run in Unifying force.

Darth Fierce
29 March 2004, 03:10 PM
As wolverine stated, Alpha Red did get a test run in The Unifying Force, which started killing Vong and their devices. Near the end of the book, the Vong planned to use an Alpha Red-infected ship against Zonama Sekot (for reasons that those of us who have read the story know)...and, well you'll have to read the story to find out what happened.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Nova Spice
30 March 2004, 11:26 AM
In the current timeline the New Republic ignored the Yuuzhan Vong threat and the Yuuzhan Vong were only defeated a number of times becaue of the Jedi.

As Tenel Ka would say, "Fact." Spectre is completely correct in this assertion. If Thrawn had defeated the New Republic, then I think it goes without question that the Yuuzhan Vong would have won.

The Jedi played too important a role in their defeat. And under Thrawn, the Jedi Order would never had made its resurgence.

While Thrawn would have countered the threat sooner and would have probably had some earlier victories due to his superior tactical and strategical knowledge, the ultimate fate of the galaxy would have been defeat and conquest. Many of the tactics developed against the Vong in the novels were directly implemented by the Jedi Knights: shadow bombs and shield trio overlapping being two of the most prominent.

The Jedi, combined with the culminating blow to the Yuuzhan Vong hierarchy in the form of Zonama Sekot, were enough to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat. Thrawn would not have had access to either, and thus would have been forced to counter the Yuuzhan Vong death machine (pardon the pun) via Imperial war machine. The result would have been conventional tactics against an unconventional enemy, leading to a vastly overwhelmed Imperial military.

wolverine
31 March 2004, 10:59 AM
One of the 'infinities' i have thought about, is what would have happened if leia was captured by the Nogori and handed over to Cyboth....
Another would be from the get go, what if cyboth did not go with thrawns plans?

Darth_kel
17 April 2004, 05:25 AM
what you all forget is that after thrawn trilogy there is the return of the emperor... What would have happened if we got Thrawn and the Emperor against the Vong????

linkstarwars
17 April 2004, 09:06 AM
:stormtpr:
Just because the Jedi wouldn't be around doesn't mean Thrawn couldn't devise new technology. For one thing Thrawn could use his cloaking technology as well as the clones. Remember they had a clone of Joruus C'baoth too. Also with the reborn Emperor Thrawn would have other Force Users, Sith maybe. I think the Vong would have no chance at defeating Grand Admiral Thrawn.

wolverine
17 April 2004, 09:26 AM
Ohh. Interesting one.

here's anpother. Say thrawn and cyboth didn't fall out, and thrawn was not killed. What would the resurected emperor have done with cyboth???

linkstarwars
17 April 2004, 09:40 AM
:stormtpr:
I don't know. Probably try and twist his mind like he did to so many other Force Users in his Empire. Also near the end of Last Command Thrawn said C'baoth was "rapidly losing his usefulness." He said that a clone that had more time to develop would be better. Between the end of Last Command "Infinities" and the NJO era the clone would have ample time to develop into a powerful Sith.

Ardent
15 May 2004, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Darth Fierce
I'll just answer them point-for-point.

[quote]What if Thrawn had not been assassinated at the end of The Last Command? What sort of changes would this have meant to the SW timeline?

Probably nothing significant right up until the NJO. Thrawn would probably have continued to harangue the New Republic right up to the invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong. At which time he'd probably disappear for a while, only to lead his own private Empire to join the NR in its defense.


--Would the Chiss society have been more involved with galactic polictics earlier than they were?

No.


--Would any of our "heroes" be dead due to Thrawn's continued rule of the Empire?

Possible, but not terribly likely. Thrawn was not waging a war of attrition with the New Republic. Better to think of it as a big training drill. He always sought a way to minimize casualties (as his Chiss training would demand).


--Would the New Republic have been able to withstand the pressures that Thrawn placed upon it?

Questionable, but like most things with money involved, likely.


--How would a confrontation between Thrawn's Empire and the Yuuzhan Vong forces have turned out?

Probably the same way it did in the canon storyline: they, with the assistance of the Chiss and other Unkown Region species, held the Yuuzhan Vong out of their territory for easily fifty years. Probably more.

Darien_Shadowfyre
15 May 2004, 04:58 PM
Just Thrawn alone would have been terrifying. He doesn't need art to be a military genius, he just IS. Art helps him work more quickly thats all.

Also, the NR lost as much as it did initially because of the lack of a unified response. Under the Empire, the Vong would have been meeting much stiffer resistance during their beachhead.

Also, Nom Anor would not have been allowed to continue with his Agent Provocateur scheme for as long as he did either.

Throw the Reborn Emperor into the mix and I laugh the Yuuzhan Vong out of the Galaxy. All Palpy has to do is introduce them to his SuperWeapon of the Month Club Subscription, and thats all she wrote. Remember, in Dark Empire, he commissioned TWO classes (the Eclipse and the Sovereign) of ships that woudl have axial Superlasers. Um, What worldshps?! In the two decades between his return and the Yuuzhan Vong, I see a fair number of such ships and other fun toys ready to show the Vong the true meaning of terror.

wolverine
16 May 2004, 08:50 AM
Actually, i disagree. WEll, about the Nom Anor part. I doubt thrawn would have found out about him.

Ayden Storm
20 May 2004, 11:37 PM
It is kind of humorous to think that the Empire was probably better suited to fighting the Vong, a massive military which was better equipped to fight an open war.

I am a huge Thrawn fan, he is my #1 villian in SW. He would have beaten the Vong, I wouldn't be suprised if that was one of the great threats alluded to in either Hand of Thrawn or Spectre of the Past.

In one of the last books (survivors quest?) Zahn had the conversation between Luke and Mara about a mastermind behind the plots and the "it coulnd't be". Then the end of the book. I loved that, keeps my hopes up.

In one of my campaigns where the players play the main characters they weren't there to cause the death of Thrawn's clone, and I had a fun time with "Thrawn" running around to mix things up. The players lived in constant fear.

Ayden Storm
20 May 2004, 11:37 PM
It is kind of humorous to think that the Empire was probably better suited to fighting the Vong, a massive military which was better equipped to fight an open war.

I am a huge Thrawn fan, he is my #1 villian in SW. He would have beaten the Vong, I wouldn't be suprised if that was one of the great threats alluded to in either Hand of Thrawn or Spectre of the Past.

In one of the last books (survivors quest?) Zahn had the conversation between Luke and Mara about a mastermind behind the plots and the "it coulnd't be". Then the end of the book. I loved that, keeps my hopes up.

In one of my campaigns where the players play the main characters they weren't there to cause the death of Thrawn's clone, and I had a fun time with "Thrawn" running around to mix things up. The players lived in constant fear.

Ayden Storm
20 May 2004, 11:37 PM
It is kind of humorous to think that the Empire was probably better suited to fighting the Vong, a massive military which was better equipped to fight an open war.

I am a huge Thrawn fan, he is my #1 villian in SW. He would have beaten the Vong, I wouldn't be suprised if that was one of the great threats alluded to in either Hand of Thrawn or Spectre of the Past.

In one of the last books (survivors quest?) Zahn had the conversation between Luke and Mara about a mastermind behind the plots and the "it coulnd't be". Then the end of the book. I loved that, keeps my hopes up.

In one of my campaigns where the players play the main characters they weren't there to cause the death of Thrawn's clone, and I had a fun time with "Thrawn" running around to mix things up. The players lived in constant fear.

Nova Spice
21 May 2004, 08:00 AM
Just Thrawn alone would have been terrifying. He doesn't need art to be a military genius, he just IS. Art helps him work more quickly thats all.

No, but he does rely on art in order to gain insight into the eccentricities of a specific species. Art was the medium by which he developed specific tactics to counter his opponents. Needless to say, the Yuuzhan Vong had no such "art" by which he could have used.


Also, the NR lost as much as it did initially because of the lack of a unified response. Under the Empire, the Vong would have been meeting much stiffer resistance during their beachhead.

Agreed. As I pointed out in my previous post in this thread, there is no doubt that the Empire would have responded much quicker to the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong. However, the integral equation that the Empire would have lacked was the Jedi Knights.

The Jedi beat the Vong. Plain and simple.


Also, Nom Anor would not have been allowed to continue with his Agent Provocateur scheme for as long as he did either.

How do you figure? Nom Anor was the one who annihilated the Imperial Ruling Council right underneath their own noses. Whether Thrawn had lived or not, Nom Anor would still have been as elusive and troublesome as he was in the NJO series. He was a master deceiver and a clever enemy. Thrawn wouldn't have made any difference when it comes to Nom Anor's antics.


Throw the Reborn Emperor into the mix and I laugh the Yuuzhan Vong out of the Galaxy. All Palpy has to do is introduce them to his SuperWeapon of the Month Club Subscription, and thats all she wrote. Remember, in Dark Empire, he commissioned TWO classes (the Eclipse and the Sovereign) of ships that woudl have axial Superlasers. Um, What worldshps?! In the two decades between his return and the Yuuzhan Vong, I see a fair number of such ships and other fun toys ready to show the Vong the true meaning of terror.

The Reborn Emperor would have made a fine counter to Shimrra. However, what real difference would he have made? Sure, he would have inspired the Imperial war machine and would have been accomodated by Dark Side force users. However, as is well known, the Force was of little use to beating the Yuuzhan Vong before Jacen Solo received his lesson from Vergere and was enlightened by the Unifying Force theory.

Palpatine's dark side minions would never have been indoctrinated on the Unifying Force. Thus, they would have fought with their anger and traditional dark side methods. And as depicted in the NJO via Lomi Plo and Welk, that didn't work.

As far as the "technological terrors" go, yea, those would have helped. But do you really think the Yuuzhan Vong would not have destroyed them? As demonstrated by their fanaticism at the Battle of Fondor and the Battle of Coruscant, they were willing to sacrifice anything to obliterate their opponents.

Just because a ship is big, doesn't mean it's invincible. All we have to do is look at the Executor and the Death Stars as prime examples of that principle.

The Yuuzhan Vong were beaten because of the Jedi. It was their devotion, specifically Jacen Solo's, to understanding their enemies relationship with the Force that eventually turned the tide. With Vergere and Zonama Sekot's help, the Jedi were able to completely alter the Yuuzhan Vong culture from the inside out. Conventional warfare would not have defeated the Vong. That was proven time and time again.

Again, this is just my analysis of the series. And fortunately, this is all speculation on our part when it comes to Thrawn. ;)

Frije
16 June 2004, 05:54 AM
in the x-wing book isard's revenge they talk about a pulsar station which is a death star with many focal points for the powered down superlaser... pretty much what they used the Death Star at Endor for to target capital ships, if the empire had built one of those i believe that the world ships would have soon become so much more space junk

QWERTY
16 June 2004, 09:35 AM
a few years after thrawn was jobbed by the little nogy good old palpy took control of his clone and run round dominating the galaxy, so in my opion thrawn would of handed power over to palpy and contiued his carrer as a grand admiral.

Qwerty