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View Full Version : The Empire is Bail Organa's fault



Snib Snub
18 February 2004, 12:19 PM
The facts: Amidala was opposed to a creation of a standing military along with Bail Organa. After Obi-Wan reported back of increased seperatist activities, Palpatine and his aide manipulated Jar-Jar into believing the absent Amidala would present the senate with the proposal to give Palpatine emergency powers. We all know Jar-Jar would be easily manipulated by anyone, let alone someone of Palpatine's caliber...but what about Bail Organa?

My supposition: Organa is standing right there when they pull their little stunt to manipulate Jar-Jar! Don't you think Bail could have said something? But no, he just stands idly by while they manipulate him, and it wasn't even subtle! He looks forlorn, pounding his fists on the railing as they take in the grand army of the Republic at the end of the movie. Bail Organa could have swayed Jar-Jar just as easily as Palpatine could, but chose to remain silent, thinking perhaps they did need an army at that point? The biggest mistake of his life.

Admiral_Atredies
18 February 2004, 01:52 PM
Uh...I don't believe that Bail Organa really could have done anything to stop Jar Jar's decision, after all, Palpatine seems much more persuasive than Organa to accomplish something like this. And if he didn't convince Jar Jar, he would have found someone else, because many off the most important Senate members (by now) would have supported going to war anyways. Jar Jar wasn't the only vote that mattered, because someone else would have just proposed emergency powers regardless, he was just an easier target for Palpatine.

Master Dao Rin
18 February 2004, 01:55 PM
I think you're reading too much into the scene.

George made Jar-Jar's duplicite involvement in the affair obvious for our benefit, not the characters. I'm quite positive Bail argued long and hard about going to war off-camera, and I'm sure everyone involved knew his stance quite well.

Adding again his view just for our benefit would have made the scene unnecessarily long.

Tinsel
18 February 2004, 08:44 PM
read the new republic comic to see some of what old bail did during these dark times

Regis
19 February 2004, 11:34 AM
Jimmy Smits may be a smooth talker, but he's got nothing on Palp's Force-enhanced persuasion.

Affect Mind, anybody?

Though it would have been nice to see some token argument from Bail.

Darth_Cassed
19 February 2004, 01:06 PM
Regis is on the right track. Palpatine has the ability to sway and control many people at a given time. At the Battle of Endor, his presence gave all the Empire a bonus on fighting, it was his Force willing them to do so.

In this situation, (at least it is my belief) that Palpatine used Affect Mind. Slowly he got Jar-Jar to be his slave to what he wanted, and he ever so slightly swayed everyone else. He made Bail think that while he disagrees with an army, all are entitled to their opinion.

The Empire: Palpatine's fault.

Sides, it wouldn't even have started without him.

Errin Orwain
19 February 2004, 03:54 PM
I agree with the fact that Palpy could easily use affect mind to sway Jar Jar and keep Bail silent on the matter.

Skreem
19 February 2004, 05:19 PM
I think that as a politician, Bail would probably not have spoken out. Think about it - he knew that there would be strong support for such a suggestion (as witnessed by it passing immediately). Vocalizing your opinions in matters of politics is not always wise - he was in a position of somewhat high regard and authority - he risked his position and respect by speaking out at that moment.
Eventhough he may completely disagree, he probably realizes that diplomatically, his best bet was to hold his tongue and see just where things ended up. At which point, he would probably be making many alliances and planning in the background - a mini-rebellion so to speak.

Snib Snub
19 February 2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Skreem
I think that as a politician, Bail would probably not have spoken out. Think about it - he knew that there would be strong support for such a suggestion (as witnessed by it passing immediately). Vocalizing your opinions in matters of politics is not always wise - he was in a position of somewhat high regard and authority - he risked his position and respect by speaking out at that moment.
Eventhough he may completely disagree, he probably realizes that diplomatically, his best bet was to hold his tongue and see just where things ended up. At which point, he would probably be making many alliances and planning in the background - a mini-rebellion so to speak.

I agree with this far more than Palpatine using Affect Mind on Jar-Jar...think about it, who has to waste energy to affect that mind? As for the title of this thread, do I really think it's Bail's fault? Heck no, just an eye-catcher to start this discussion. (of COURSE it's Palpatine's fault, the title is tongue-in-cheek considering the topic of the scene :D )

Darth_Cassed
19 February 2004, 08:04 PM
I don't think Jar-Jar would go against Amidala's wishes. While he is a very simple creature, very simple creatures also think very simply. If Amidala wanted him to disagree with an army, he would have done so. For him to actually comprehend the pros and cons of building an army is not of his nature. Therefore, someone must make that decision for him.

This is why I think Palpatine had to play a role in that, and a role that would give Jar-Jar the ability of complex thought.

I think he used the combined effect of persuasion and subtle swaying.

Rogue Janson
20 February 2004, 04:26 AM
originally posted by Skreem
I think that as a politician, Bail would probably not have spoken out. Think about it - he knew that there would be strong support for such a suggestion (as witnessed by it passing immediately). Vocalizing your opinions in matters of politics is not always wise - he was in a position of somewhat high regard and authority - he risked his position and respect by speaking out at that moment.
Eventhough he may completely disagree, he probably realizes that diplomatically, his best bet was to hold his tongue and see just where things ended up. At which point, he would probably be making many alliances and planning in the background - a mini-rebellion so to speak.
I don't think that would be the case - Bail Organa was a prominent member of the faction opposed to militarisation. Suddenly holding his tongue at the moment when he could make a critical difference isn't a sensible strategy. Even if he might not have spoken out in that scene he could have had a word with Jar Jar after. Perhaps he intended to, but Palpatine conspired to keep him away, busy with some other matter.

Another idea I just thought of is that perhaps Bail underestimated Jar Jar's stupidity (or alternately, Palpatine's Force influence). Though we know immediately what's going to happen from that scene, as Jar Jar is set up, it might not be so obvious for Bail. Really who would believe that Senator Binks would do something that's clearly so against Senator Amidala's principles in her name?

Errin Orwain
20 February 2004, 07:00 AM
and even if Bail did have a few words with Jar Jar it would not do much good if Palpy used the force to make sure Jar Jar saw things his way. Obi-Wan said in EP IV that the force can have a strong influence on the weak minded, then the force would be an absolute steamroller when used on Jar Jar, no amount of words or sence would dissuade him.

Snib Snub
20 February 2004, 11:29 AM
Let's also keep in mind, Palpatine wasn't working alone on this. His conversation with Mas Amedda in this scene was obviously "scripted". Palpatine's tone changed as he launched into his "script" which Amedda had a role in. Amedda needed to propose the idea as if Palpatine hadn't thought of it.

"But who can we find to propose such a radical movement?"

Maybe Amedda has a larger role behind the scenes? If Bail could have tried to sway Jar-Jar, or maybe Bail assumed Jar-Jar wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing, it's also quite possible Amedda had a follow-up discussion with Binks to assure his support and/or running interference with Organa. There's a possibility for an interesting political short story here...

JediJester
23 February 2004, 11:18 AM
Who's to say that Palpatine didn't have words with Organa somewhere offscreen first? It would stand to reason to work on the harder subjects of concern first. Once he was sure he would have no interference from Organa, he could then then move in on Jar Jar without even having to worry about intercepting people.

johnnyputrid
23 February 2004, 02:21 PM
Personally, I think Jar Jar is the mastermind of the whole thing. Qui-Gon should've killed him when he had the chance.

Regis
24 February 2004, 07:40 AM
Johnny, I've got this theory that none of my friends will even acknowledge saying Darth Sidious is really Jar Jar Binks. He just uses the Dark Side to disguise himself as a wrinkly old man and change his voice.

Nemoidian: But my lord, is that... leeegal?
Jar Jar (in a dark cloak with his eyes sticking out slits in the hood): Meesa makin' it legal, okey-day?

That would be way too obvious. Lucas has to have some big twist up his flanneled sleeve for the prequels, and it damn well better be on par with "No... I am your father!"

Ergo, Darth Sidious is really Jar Jar Binks in disguise, manipulating the old senator from his planet to reach a high position of power so that he can swipe it from him. But after seeing the OT, I'd guess that Palpatine turns out stronger than his Gungan master had anticipated and, after removing Darth Jar Jar from the picture, solidifies his power and becomes the Emperor we all know and love.

It's always the one you least suspect.

johnnyputrid
26 February 2004, 04:59 AM
I agree Regis. Jar Jar is an heir to the Sith legacy. He played Palpatine like a finely tuned instrument, and remained behind the scenes to carry out his plans of vengenace. I've no doubt that we'll see Darth Sidious reveal himself to be none other than Binks himself.

The real fall of Anakin Skywalker is caused when Palpatine, wanting a bit of power for himself, gets himself involved in Jar Jar's corruption of Anakin. Jar Jar has spent considerable time twisting Anakin and grooming him for his role as successor to the Sith. Now this crusty old senator steps in and decides that he wants a piece of the Sith pie. Palpatine's speaking ability, being much clearer and tending to actually make sense, easily sways Anakin to his side. Obi-Wan discovers that Palpatine is a fake, that Jar Jar is the true Sith Master, and Anakin feels betrayed. Jar Jar steps in with the intention of eliminating Palpatine and the meddling Obi-Wan, but trips over his own feet and falls to his death. Palpatine orders Anakin to exterminate the Jedi and take a place by his side as the new Lord of the Sith. Thus begins the uber-duel that will eventually cost Anakin his soul, along with several limbs. The Republic falls, the Empire takes over, and by the time of RotJ, we realize that if Jar Jar had remained in power, things might've turned out a lot worse.

Snib Snub
3 March 2004, 07:06 AM
So's be it, younga Skywalker. Meesa thinkin' ... yousa gonna die.

Rogue Janson
3 March 2004, 07:19 AM
Darth Bombad (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?postid=119476#post119476)
(and searching for that, I also found how Mace Windu will die (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?postid=112963#post112963))

johnnyputrid
3 March 2004, 07:23 AM
We may as well give Episode I the "'Special Edition" treatment while we're at it. Darth Sidious (or Darth Bombad has been suggested) would have some slight changes made to his hood, to account for the ears. And of course, his lines should change to reflect this:

"Dis aworks to oursa advantage. Crunch dem, all of dem."
"Viceroy, meesa no wanten disen slime ina meesa sight again."
"Disen bein' meesa apprentice, Darth Maul. He will finda yousa lost ship."

And in Episode II:

"Yousa doin well, Lord Tyranus. Everyting isa goin asa meesa planned it."

gordoss_Vaa
3 April 2004, 07:27 AM
"Mesa fellow represnetitives of desa holonet, mesan desan say bail organa did no sucha thing!" -Jar Jar Binks