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Jenesairre
18 April 2000, 05:21 PM
In the main book, it says that Droids can't be force sensitive, and yet they have force points. I say...HUH?!!!

One or the other, you can't have both. If a droid can use the force unknowingly (force point) then a droid could be potentially force sensitive.

Personally, I think that the idea of droids being force sensitive or having force points is ridiculous, but I'd like to know what the great canon says, and also what your takes on it are.

Thanks!

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Jenesairre
chaos@kconline.com

Kayle Skolaris
18 April 2000, 06:08 PM
Main book also says Character Points are lesser manifestations of the force. Should Droids also not be allowed to have them? Hutts can have Force Points but can't use the Force. So can the Ssi Ruuvi. One assumes Toydarians like Watto can have Force Points but cannot use the Force as well. So where's that leave us? They can have Force Points but can't use the Force. Looks like you can have one but not the other after all...

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BGKnight44
18 April 2000, 06:24 PM
Hmmm...I'm going to agree with kayle's reasoning, it makes sense with the given examples.

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Jenesairre
18 April 2000, 06:27 PM
Yes, but those examples you give are LIVING creatures. "The Force is an energy field created by all LIVING things"

I was using force points as an example, not an explanation. Yes, the book says character points are a lesser manifestation of the force, but to allow droids to use them, I would rather say that character points are a manifestation of growth and learning. Though a droid cannot grow, it can learn.

Droids are not a life form, they are a mechanical construction. Though they may give the illusion of sentience and self-awareness, they are not sentient beings. They are machines with artificial intelligence.

If you hold that droids can use the force, then how?

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Jenesairre
chaos@kconline.com

Kayle Skolaris
18 April 2000, 06:32 PM
It boils down to this. In your game, you do what makes you happy. I let droids have force points. You don't want to, that's your decision.

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Suspenders of Disbelief: For When the Harsh Weight of Reality Threatens to Drag the Trousers of Our Imagination Down to the Unforgiving Floor of Mundanity!

Fred Getce
18 April 2000, 07:37 PM
You should use the old rule of thumb in this case. What ever the NPCs can do, the PCs can do it to, and what ever the PCs do, the NPCs can also do.

The reference of the droids not being force sensitive does not mean they can not use force points or character points. Being force sensitive and having force points are two entirely different things.

If you start altering the base rules and say droids can't use force points you will be pissing off alot of good gamers who will be turned off from your games because Joe Blow smuggler gets to use force points and my protocol droid can't use them to save his butt or to accomplish the impossible feats when he really needs to.

This may be a little bit of a strong opinion and I apologize ahead of time for it, but I have seen this thing happen many times before in the years of GMing games galore. Game companies spend alot of play test hours determining which rules are needed and which ones are not needed. They also take in to consideration fairness for all PC types. In SW this would include making the decision that every one can use Force points and Character points. If you limit one PC type from all others, sooner or later you will eventually hear the cry of the word "FOUL".

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May the force be with you.

Peter Ferguson
18 April 2000, 07:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris:
Main book also says Character Points are lesser manifestations of the force. Should Droids also not be allowed to have them? Hutts can have Force Points but can't use the Force. So can the Ssi Ruuvi. One assumes Toydarians like Watto can have Force Points but cannot use the Force as well. So where's that leave us? They can have Force Points but can't use the Force. Looks like you can have one but not the other after all...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never noticed this inconcistancy before (droids with force points.)

I believe the alien races above can have force points, because they are a living being "The force is an energy field created by all living things" and why can't toydarians or hutts be force sensitive ? Just because mind tricks don't work on them ? to me, that means they have strong willed minds.

Droids on the other hand are machines, pure and simple. Can your toaster have a force point ? Maybe it has to rely in to force not to burn your toast ? =)
I think that Droids need cp's of course, because a player needs to advance his character, although these may need to be changed to a new wording (for droids) so that they cannot use Cp's in a game to up stats.

Also I agree, droids should not get force poitns. However, that leaves them at a pure disadvantage. What you could suggest in return is that droids can easily buy improvements to their systems, and get extra pips midway through adventures by simply downloading new info, or getting new body parts.

Just an idea.


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Peter Ferguson
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Peter Ferguson
18 April 2000, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred Getce:

The reference of the droids not being force sensitive does not mean they can not use force points or character points. Being force sensitive and having force points are two entirely different things.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This just reminded me, in one of the rule books, didn't they say that for those characters that don't believe in the force that a force point could represent 'good luck' (or is that still a manifestation of the force ? )

I suppose if a player could explain how or why his droid can use a force point (rename it luck point, or learning point, or advancment point, whatever.) then fine with me. If he tries to say 'my droid is intuned with the force' I'd say woa.. hold on now..

The only exception is if someone makes a new droid that has biological technology. Living cells mixed in with machine, to produce a machine that can heal...

HMmmmmmmmm brain storm coming on, going off topic.. alert alert..

What if someone developed such a droid, using human cells and nano technology for it to heal itself. Brain matter to interact with machine brain so that more human like qualities come out, and mimicing of emotions is more natural..

Eventually the droid starts to detect the force, and possibly it will drive itself crazy or learn to use it. What if the nano's and midichlroians (sp) start to interact and create a hybrid ? or what if the nano's start to feel the force and go into hyperdrive, using the force to read the dna in the cells and create more cells. Eventually the very mechanical droid starts developing skin, hair,

Freaky.. =) I may use this.. hehehe



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Peter Ferguson
Gm of the online Starwars RPG.
Visit my web site and don't forget to VOTE (under the Extra's Menu)

wolverine
19 April 2000, 05:31 AM
TO my knowledge they can have neither....PG18 starwars second ed says that they cannot be force sensitive or have force skills, but says nothing about force points... But on the droid template sheets, it leaves the option for being force sensitive or not open unlike let's say the jedi or bounty hunter???? I say, if they Can have force points, then they should be able to be sensitive and LEARN BUT NOT USE force skills. THis way, a jedi master can have an sub teacher in his trusty droid.....

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Templar
19 April 2000, 06:29 AM
Well, there are such droids that use living matter to make their systems. Take Guri, from Showdows of the Empire, for example.

The real question here is whether or not droids are sentient, or jsut a product of AI. Personaly, I think that droids, after a while and whith no memory wipes, can achive sentience. It depends of what they are and what they are doing, but I think it's possible.

To me, the best indication of self awareness and sentience would be creativity. By this note, most PC droids would be sentient.

As for the Force, I would say no. Try it this way: droids get no force points, and a reduced ammount of character points (even a machine can get lucky), and in exchange they can purchase new skills and inporove old ones instead of training. Training is still possible, but it takes twice as long.

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Oh Lord, grant that we may always be right, for Thou knowest we shall never change our minds.

John
19 April 2000, 10:36 AM
I didn't read all the posts so I think I'm going to repeat someone.

there are two ways of thinking:

1. A droid is programmed and does not live. So it just runs programm. That means a droid can't use both character- and force points.

2. The book allso tells us that when you are using a force- or character point you are doing your very, very best. Since the SW drois programms are FAR beyonde our technologie, the droids can have a dynamic programm what give's a droid the ability to learn during he's making an action. The more he uses this feature, the better he makes his action. With one disadvantage, over-heating his...RAM memorie.
(Just a suggestion)

Using force powers is a total differend thing in my eyes, it is a mental ability. That's why a droid can't USE the force but it can use force-points.

get my point?

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<FONT COLOR="#99CCFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana">[This message has been edited by John on 19 April 2000 at 02:39 PM.]</font>

Merc384
19 April 2000, 12:38 PM
Well first of all Character points can be the same as luck. For diods it is a manipulation of luck. Force points are just having greater luck although they are suppose to be how the character is intune with the force.

And oh yeah about that driod with biotech it's already been done. When the Emporer was incarnated he took the minds of his best TIE fighter pilots and got rid of the bodies placing them inside of a driod type ship. I thik they're called shadow driods. In the essential guide to driods it gives a full explanation of them if you wanted to know more.

I say let the PC use force points or let the PC get technology upgrades that can boost his skills. The second would probably be frowned upon by the others though so just use force aka luck points instead.

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Templar
19 April 2000, 05:36 PM
Merc, that's not a droid, that's a type of cyborg.

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Oh Lord, grant that we may always be right, for Thou knowest we shall never change our minds.

Kayle Skolaris
19 April 2000, 06:07 PM
Merc, Templar, you're both right. Shadow droids are indeed listed in the Essential Guide to Droids. They are also cybernetic organisms. There are actually several cybernetic entities listed in the Essential Guide to Droids such as the Bomarr Walkers, Gorm the Dissolver, and the aforementioned Shadow Droids.

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Suspenders of Disbelief: For When the Harsh Weight of Reality Threatens to Drag the Trousers of Our Imagination Down to the Unforgiving Floor of Mundanity!

Jenesairre
19 April 2000, 06:24 PM
I think what I may do is this:

Droids can NOT have force points. They are not "directly" a part of the force. The natural substances from which they were made (which WERE part of the force) have been so altered by construction that the life energy is not longer present.

Droids CAN have character points, but these can only be used to develop skills and attributes (if the appropriate programming is available, of course). Droids can NOT use character points to increase dice on actions.

Think about it: Droids are mechanical machines, not biological machines. If you ask your computer for the square root of pi, you'll get the same answer every time. Where, with a person, even a mathmatician can make a mistake. A droid could get "lucky", but it would be due to outside circumstances, not anything the droid did. Droids don't have intuition or gut feelings. They're machines.

For any players that complain about these restrictions (which they would know of before choosing the character of course) my answer is, you don't HAVE to play a droid. But honestly, for me it won't be an issue. I've NEVER had a playre want to play a droid!

Thanks for the input everyone! It's been enlightening.

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Jenesairre
chaos@kconline.com

Sithspawn
20 April 2000, 03:31 AM
The force is produced by all 'living' things. So what is life? Organic? Well that includes the plants, but how do you explain Shards? Not organic but strong in the force.

So is the answer sentient life? So when is a droid considered sentient? Has anyone seen the Star Trek episode 'Measure of a Man'?

Okay, this what I do. Droids can have force and charcater points, but may not be force-sensitive, so are therefore unable to learn force skills.

Now the subject of Cyber-Points springs to mind. A PC with Cyber-Points has difficulty trusting the force. I award cyberpoints for cybernetic bonus's and for life-saving cybernetics. If a PC starts off as a cyborg with no bonus's then they have no cyber-points. I use this rule with droids too. Attachments beyond factory standard cost the droid cyber-points. As do life-saving repairs. A droid can die. With a good the skill the body may be repaired but ALL memory and skills are lost. The shell could be used to create a new PC if desired.



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"As far as I know I'm already dead! Which means, I'll be waiting for your sorry ass in the after life!"

Kayle Skolaris
5 September 2004, 01:27 PM
Here's an old argument that deserves resolution, or a second look, at the very least. Therefore...

BUMP OF THREAD RESURRECTION