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View Full Version : The WEG - WotC conversion system is USELESS!!!



Tony J Case, Super Genius
26 November 2000, 03:05 AM
Well, I actually dont believe what I say in the subject line - but it got your attention, didnt it. :)

Dear lord - the WEG conversion makes the old characters so powerful, it's not even funny! My smuggler - who I retired because he was too powerful (hey - it' was 5 years of gameplay! Gimmie a break!) - so far outclasses Han Solo, it's not even funny. There has to be something I'm doing wrong, or the system is really broken.

Ok, here are the stats - lets check the numbers:

DEXTERITY: 3D+1
KNOWLEDGE: 1D+2
MECHANICAL: 4D+2
PERCEPTION: 3D
STRENGTH: 3D+1
TECHNICAL: 2D

Which means I've got:

STR: 15
DEX: 15
CON: 15
INTELL: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 13

So far, so good - but then we get to the meat, the skills:

Blaster: 5D+1
Brawling Parry: 5D
Dodge: 8D+1
Grenade: 4D
Melee Parry: 5D
Melee: 5D
(S) Whip: 9D
Grabbing: 4D
Running: 4D+2

Alien Races: 2D+2
Bureaucracy: 4D
Cultures 3D+1
Languages 4D
Planetary Systems: 3D+2
Streetwise: 4D
Survival: 3D

Astrogation: 7D
Beast Riding: 5D
Repulsorlift Op.: 7D
Starship Weapons: 7D
Space Transport Piloting: 12D
Starship Shields: 7D
Starfighter Piloting: 10D+2
Technology: 3D
Sensors Op.: 6D
Ground Vehicle Op.: 5D

Bargain: 5D
Command: 6D
Con: 7D
Hide: 5D
Sneak: 5D
Search: 4D

Brawling: 6D
Climbing/Jumping: 7D
Lifting: 5D
Stamina: 5D+2
(S) Hold Booze: 6D+2

Demolitions: 3D
Droid Program/Repair: 3D
First Aid: 6D+1
Security: 7D
Space Transport Repair: 7D
Starfighter Repair: 6D
Starship Weapons Repair: 6D+1

Which translates into:

Alien Species +3
Profession - Bureaucrat +7
Know - Cultures +5
Speak Languages +7
Know - Planatary Systems +6
Know - Streetwise +7
Survival +4
Know - Technology +4
Climb +6
Jump +6
Diplomacy +6
Bluff +12
Hide +6
Move Silently +6
Search +2
Spot +1
Astrogate +7
Ride +1
Pilot +31 (TAKE THAT, Han Solo - and that's without the +5 from the high mech)
Demolitions +3
Computer Use +6
Repair +27 (TAKE THAT, Macguyver!)
Treat Injury +13
Disable Device +15

And a whole bunch of feats - but those arent important now. So with cross class skills and whatnot, we've got a grand total of 234 skill points - and weighs in as roughly a 28-ish level Scoundrel. That is so far off the charts, it's not even funny.

Is there a problem with my math? Or is the conversion process THIS skewed.

Armage Bedar
26 November 2000, 03:21 AM
Yeah, it's pretty messed up.

Have you seen Landon's method? It works surprisingly well...

<div align="center"><hr noshade width=300></div>

Step 1: Average the number of D in all of a WEG character's skills,
singling it all down into one die code. Include Force skills for Jedi.

Step 2: Use that number before the D as your converted character's
level.

Step 3: Roll up or approximate attributes, and just make the character
again, keeping his general concept in mind when you do him/her over. :)

Alternate Step 1: Total up the number of pips a character has in skills
(not including attribute pips). Divide by 10.

Alternate Step 2: Use that number as your converted character's level.

Alternate Step 3: I'm not being sarcastic. This actually works for me,
because it allows me to gain a rough idea of level without having to
worry about the minutiae of conversion inconsistencies. Example:
following the guidelines listed in the rulebook, Adol Larynth turns out
to be an 18th Level Jedi Guardian with crazy amounts of skill points. In
fact, I had to fudge, to get him that low. His original projected level
was somewhere past 20. Now, at the end of his WEG career, he was not
quite ready to become a Jedi Master, and had stats slightly lower (on
average) than Obi-Wan's from the original Trilogy. Using the methods
detailed above, I was able to nab a result of approximately 12th-13th
level, which, if you check the class table for the Jedi Guardian, closer
fits what I've described.

I'm serious. Try this, and see what happens.

- Landon

<div align="center"><hr noshade width=300></div>

Tell me what you think, everyone. I'll make sure Landon hears about it...

Moridin
26 November 2000, 06:41 AM
Me? I was going to post and say that the subject line of this message was absolutely right. Conversion number-by-number has been pretty useless. I think the best way to convert is to sit down and capture the spirit and skills of the character relatively accurately between the GM and the pleyer.

Trevor Vanth
26 November 2000, 02:56 PM
I'm wondering how long it'll be before someone puts together some sort of freeware conversion software. Heck...if I were a little more programming-savvy, I'd do it. ;)

I don't think the conversion system's entirely flawed. The problem, for me, comes with the skills that the character's developed out of necessity (say, for example, piloting skills) that would be considered cross-class skills under the new system. Using the conversion guidelines, to accommodate the number of ranks that those skills might translate out to requires a character's level to be bumped up considerably so as to not exceed the cross-class maximums.

Or, one can bump those ranks down.

Example--under the WEG system, my character had 2D in Mechanical, and had improved his Starship Piloting to 3D+2. This translates to 5 Feats for Pilot. Under the WotC system, he best translates as a multiclassed Jedi Guardian/Noble. To allow for those 5 Feats in Pilot, the character has to be a minimum of a 7th level character. (Which, now that I think of it, isn't too terribly out of line for a character who - on and off, with some very extended dry spells - has been rattling around for about 5 years. :))

All in all, I'd say that conversion will best be served by using the published conversion rules as a guide with a bit of fudging and some give-and-take on the part of the players and GM's. Probably wouldn't hurt, either, to have another set of eyes handy during the process.

As long as the spirit of the character and what he/she can do translates through, all should run smoothly.

Superdog
26 November 2000, 06:34 PM
It says in there that the system isn't perfect, and they are quite right.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
26 November 2000, 06:40 PM
Oh - and it's terrably incomplete, too. Where at the ship/vehicle conversions? We've got 7 or so lines, mostly consisting of "see chapter 10: Ships for more details".

It looks like they ran out of room in the book - and if that's the case, why fill up the second half of the page with that drawing! Gimmie more info, damnit!

Generic Jedi
26 November 2000, 08:43 PM
I have not spent much time reading the rules, however,
I have come across one little gem on the
very first page of skills, 061, that states:

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your level +3.
Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is half of this
number (do not round up or down)

Which makes sense since there are half ranks for
cross-class skills.

Peter Ferguson
27 November 2000, 12:24 PM
Ok I have yet to get the WOTC rules....

and It's sad to hear the conversion system was done half assed.. but would it be just easier to recreate and 'fudge' the skill levels converte your characters from the WEG system ?

When I do pick up the new system, I will probably eventually convert to it, but That means converting all my pc's to it. I don't want things seriously screwing up with this...

Trevor Vanth
27 November 2000, 01:05 PM
I wouldn't say it's so much that the conversion guidelines were done "half-assed," but more that some things just aren't going to translate properly going from one system to another. It's an inherent aspect of converting between two different systems.

What I've found best so far is to use the conversion "rules" more as guidelines to help get a feel for how the character translates into the d20 system, and fudge here and there (up or down, as the case may be) to keep the character's spirit and flavor intact.

And, in the end, isn't that the most important aspect of an RPG character? :D

Zak'irek
27 November 2000, 03:29 PM
However, I would only use the rules as a guideline to my character. I plan on using the attribute conversion system to get my characters attributes then I will select an appropriate level and class and go from there. Fairly similar to the way I converted from D&D 2nd ed to 3rd ed. Just fill in what is appropriate from the character class tables and select skill points and feats staying as close to the character's previous stats.

Granted I don't know how good an Idea this actually is since I haven't got the core rule book yet, not sure if it is in Australia at all. Does anyone know if the release date was international? If not any of you fellow Aussies know when we will be graced with WOTC Star wars?

danck
27 November 2000, 06:13 PM
I have seen the core rulebook and character record sheets at the Daily Planet in Brisbane. I browsed the book but decided not to buy at this stage, seeing as it was A$75+. Personally, I'm sticking with the WEG system, but might consider picking up supplements, particularly the Dark Side book.

Generic Jedi
28 November 2000, 05:41 AM
I personally do not like the way they
have lumped all repair into one catagory.

I think I may keep those seperate.
Repairing a droid and a capital ship
are not the same skill. some concepts
may be similar in that sticking your tongue
to the bare red wire and licking your fingers
and grabbing the bare black wire is a bad
idea for all electronics, but similarities
will cease soon enough.

Ronin
28 November 2000, 07:11 AM
Yeah, I noticed 'Repair' too: my Jedi has meagre skill in Lightsabre repair and capship wpns repair, but this translates into 5 ranks of repair! (not bad!).

As for character conversion: OMG! What a screw-up, Habuth and Emp.Xan are at home now brainstorming a 'reasonable' method (which doesn't result in us being 20th level but crap in many skills, and great in ones we used to be average at!!!).
It doesn't help that the 'typical' characters (eg. typical starfighter pilot, etc) in the gamesmaster-section DO NOT abide by the skill-limits per level rule (or so Habuth and Emp.Xan tell me)......
It's a helluva mess at the mo'
(still, the rest of the system seems excellent in my first reading....)

Derriphan
28 November 2000, 09:09 AM
Yeah, I noticed that they seemed to do that too, and I'm not sure why. Maybe that rule should be thrown out anyway? I think that the fast-play characters in the front of the book do that too, because the first-level fringer (racer) guy has nine ranks of Pilot! Even with Skill Emphasis, he ought to only have seven, right?

Also, in regards to vitality points, I'm curious as to why a heavy blaster pistol bolt is any more tiring to dodge than, say, a hold-out blaster? I understand why they do different damage if they hit (Wound Points), but why if they "miss?"

But I do like the system overall. Very cool.

Emperor Xanderich II
28 November 2000, 01:44 PM
Yep, they do violate the skill limit caps, as well as having too many skills for their level, sometimes too much by 150%. A bit silly realy. Hardly 'generic' characters.

The conversion system itself is completely flawed, and we scrapped it.

What we did was to work out what level we would have been, and then started new characters and built them upto that level. So my character is 13th level, but ended up with 7 levels in soldier, 4 in scout and 2 in scoundrel. Seems to work quite well...

We also gave ourselves an extra 30% skill points, as our skill levels were still too low.

So far so good. We think...

Tony J Case, Super Genius
28 November 2000, 10:20 PM
The one thing of the system, now that I've looked things over again, is the attribute conversion system. Everything else about it sucks - but this bit aint too bad. At the very least, it gives a solid base to work from as you chuck the rest of the conversion.

Oh well. . .

Zethnar
29 November 2000, 06:00 AM
Brisbane eh? Looks like we wont be getting it for at least six months then zak. :)

Shoggoth
29 November 2000, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Xanderich II
Yep, they do violate the skill limit caps, as well as having too many skills for their level, sometimes too much by 150%. A bit silly realy. Hardly 'generic' characters.


Xanderich -

Just out of curiosity, can you elaborate as to which of the generic characters are illegal? Did you remember to count bonuses for attributes? I'd have re-examined the pre-made characters myself if I knew which ones you were referring to...

Shoggoth

Zak'irek
29 November 2000, 05:04 PM
Probably longer if it is $75+! It couldn't possibly have been that much. The dollar is pretty bad, but we didn't pay anything near that for d&d 3rd ed. What did you Yankees pay for it? Perhaps it was some kind of Brisbane thing where they over charge because of the amount of tourists they get down that way. Or maybe even an early copy from the Presidentless country. You guys still don't have one yet I take it? If you don't, forget about it, we haven't had one for 200 years :)

Man it sucks living in the sticks huh Zeth.
<small>[Edited by Zak'irek on 29 November 2000 at 09:07 PM]</small>

Trevor Vanth
29 November 2000, 05:31 PM
The dollar is pretty bad, but we didn't pay anything near that for d&d 3rd ed. What did you Yankees pay for it?

D&D 3e Player's Handbook is $19.95 US.

SWRPG 3e Core Rulebook is $34.95 US.

SWRPG Character Sheet pack is $9.95 US (not sure if danck was including this in that $75 total or not).

That'll at least give you a basis for comparison. :)


Or maybe even an early copy from the Presidentless country. You guys still don't have one yet I take it?

Sure we do. William Jefferson Clinton is President, and will be until January 20. ;)

Zak'irek
29 November 2000, 06:27 PM
Then who takes over?

danck
29 November 2000, 07:19 PM
No kidding.. the core rulebook alone was $75 in Brisbane. This makes sense, considering the dollar is around $0.52 at the moment. If you add in freight costs (I assume this was an air-shipped copy, since it was there only a day or two after the US release)then $75 is about right.

Curse these market forces!

I can't remember how much the character sheets were, since I won't be using them I didn't even look.

Remember Wizards are printing a lot more of the PHB/DMGs than they are of the SW rulebook, so production costs are a lot cheaper.

Where are you guys out in the sticks? Not a capital city, I presume.

Trevor Vanth
29 November 2000, 07:25 PM
Well, not only might they be printing more of D&D, but they don't have to pay a (probably hefty) licensing fee for it, either. :)

Emperor Xanderich II
30 November 2000, 04:02 AM
Shoggoth, I do believe most of them are. The specific ones we checked were (I think???), level 4 pilot, level 8 Dark Jedi, and level 12 dimplomat type.

We did include modifiers for attributes an' all.

Lokar
30 November 2000, 07:29 AM
I'm Bostan (thats how they say it) and haven't seen the book yet. If this is the sticks then there is no civilization.

DMaple
30 November 2000, 07:49 AM
Just done a quick check on the Pilot 4th level, as an illustration of Xanderich point. First the Total skill adds, then the ranks that must have been spent to get the add ie: Subtract ability mods, and feats, and x2 for cross class skills.

Skill Ranks Running total
Astrogate +9 +7
Computer Use +9 +7 14
Demolitions +6 +4 18
Knowledge +4 +2 20
Pilot +13 +7 27
Repair +9 +7 34

Bluff +3 +6 40
Spot +6 +10 50

Now Bluff and Spot are cross class for a Pilot (solider) so they cost double ranks, and at 4th level have a maximum rank of 3.5 which means the Pilot's Spot breaks the rules being at 5 ranks.

At 4th level he should only have 42 skill points to spend, or perhaps 49 if human.
or Human bonus
1st level (4+2)x4 = 24 or +4 = 28
2nd 6 = 30 or +1 = 35
3rd 6 = 36 or +1 = 42
4th 6 = 42 or +1 = 49

So it breaks the number of skill ranks by 8 points.

This is just low level so I imagine the margin of error is worse with higher level examples. Still is disappointing proof reading didn't pick up Spot which is cross class.

Shoggoth
30 November 2000, 09:35 AM
Emp. Xander - yeah I looked into the jedi and the pilot (a 12th level would hurt my brain). Pilot breaks down exactly as someone posted (which really isn't bad if they were using human bonus, but I think it's more likely that Spot should have just had 2 points spent on it, buying a single rank modified to +2 by Wis.

The 8th dark jedi is much worse - should have 44 skill points, adds up to 62. Coincidentally, though, if just spend points like ALL the skills are class skills, it adds up exactly. Huh.

Then... if you add up all the Pilot skills as if they were class skills, you get 41. I think someone got a little sloppy here.

---------

Ok, I did decide to look at the Diplomat after all. I don't even know where to start. First off, there is no Diplomat class. Assuming that Diplomat = Noble, then there are 75 skill points spent out of 105 available. HOWEVER, the skill points add up exactly if you assume that maybe Diplomat was a class that was dropped during production and had 4+INT skills per level. I'm guessing this is a holdover from an earlier version of the rules. However, as you said, no matter what the excuse, it is quite the typo.

Oh well. I guess the only point I'm trying to make is that in the future, Emp. Xan., I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you are talking out your ass (which is generally what I assume about everyone).

DMaple
1 December 2000, 03:46 AM
Diplomat is a NPC class in the GM's section.

Shoggoth
1 December 2000, 03:58 AM
You're right, I missed that. Well, since we don't have a list of class skills for Diplomats, Thugs, or Experts its hard to say if everything adds up or not. But under the assumption that all listed skills are class skills, the 12th Diplomat is fine.

DMaple
1 December 2000, 04:14 AM
They are in the discriptions, they are just not in the nice little tables at they are for the normal classes. Same with Prestige Classes.

But back to the topic I've been having a go at converting Darkstryder over to WotC and the main problem I'm having is with the command staff.

I would have thought the Officer prestige class, would reflect well the WEG Command skill that most of them have (often at 7D+). But in order to be an Officer you need Diplomacy 6+ ranks. And the only classes your going to get that many ranks in any sensible time is Noble or Jedi Consular. I can't see all the Command staff coming from Noble families and they are certainly not Jedi.

I'm starting to think I might get rid of the whole idea of cross class skills. But that weakens the abilities of some classes.

Hmmm Classes suck.

Ronin
1 December 2000, 04:16 AM
Myself, Emp.Xan and Habuth found this out last night:
are you including the generic character's Attribute modifiers, feats and Synergy bonuses? Originally we weren't and so the generic characters seemed to 'cheat', but WITH the extras included they're (almost) right (maybe a coupla points over in some cases, though we haven't checked ALL of 'em :D ).

Treefrog
13 December 2000, 12:21 AM
Yeah, tell me about it! I tried converting one of my long running Jedi's, and she's at least 30th level!

Zethnar
13 December 2000, 05:19 AM
Hey danck, pull out a map, find south australias page and look for whyalla. It on the spencer gulf, and wayyyyy out in the stix. I managed to con a friend of mine to get me a copy from adelaide tho.

Dallas
30 April 2004, 08:23 PM
i am bored :( my friends arent over so we can't play da game

Darth Bile
1 May 2004, 07:37 AM
yeah, the conversions are screwed up, started trying to convert one of my characters the other night, and gave up on it after five minutes cause of the screwy system, and i won't go to an old gm to help me with it, cause he likes to way underpower every character unless they are family, then he over powers them so there is no sense in anyone else being in the party. I'll just stick with either the D6 system (most likely since it's my favorite star wars system) or if forced, i'll play the D20 system.

Zethnar
1 May 2004, 07:50 AM
Wow, its been ages since i saw an e-mail from this place. And wierdly enough its from a thread i apparently subscribed to about 4 years ago.

Unfortunatly I cant remember how we converted our characters... I think we just picked a level that seemed appropriate and went from there (For us i think it was 7th). it seems to work, and you get a balanced character, well except for the stats, they're way overpowered simply cos of the converstion system (we used the WOTC conversion table to figure out our ablility scores).

It worked well. At seventh level you have enough skill points, levels and feats to get the general feel of your character without having to loose too much (but keep in mind you wont get a carbon copy, you're simply going to be better at some things and worse at others).

Wade Trenor
1 May 2004, 03:44 PM
Does the conversion tool at WotC's website still work? I had a go of it about a month back and it wouldn't compute the info I put in.

It might just be my firewall acting up though. Half the time it won't even let me access my e-mails!

Darth Bile
1 May 2004, 05:12 PM
what conversion too?? never heard anything about one on the site, can ya get me a link for it someone?? please??

Wade Trenor
1 May 2004, 08:02 PM
The conversion tool is here (http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article.asp?x=sw20010222c&c=rpg).

Let me know whether it works or not. :)

Zethnar
1 May 2004, 08:47 PM
it seems to work although the options only go up to 5d6+1

kinda sucks if you have more than that in some skills.