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Artie Deco
30 August 2004, 11:26 AM
I’m having trouble justifying buying into this game. The SRP for the boosters is going to be $13. That’s a very, very high price point. That’s as much as a starter set for other games.

For $13 you get 7 figures per booster, just under $2 per figure, which is comparable to other games, but in each booster you’re only going to get one rare?!? For $13 I would have expected more than that. At least better uncommons. Both Heroclix and LOTR TMG (both of which this new game will be competing against) have better ratios. Heroclix and LOTR TMG both have decent “uncommon” figures in their sets, but SW:MINIS does not. Even WOTC’s own SW:TCG has main character “uncommon” cards … I would have thought they would have used the same philosophy with this game.

There are 27 R/VR figures in this game (if I counted right). That means at minimum you would have to buy 27 booster boxes to complete a set. At $13 each, that’s $351. (Most likely it would require even more than that, because of the “very rare” figure distribution.) And with those 27 boxes, you would have 108 common figures, or 6-7 copies of each figure. Do you really need 18 Stormtroopers to play this game? Do you really want 18 Stormtroopers?

The selection of “rares” is okay for rebel and imperial factions, but the “fringe” faction? Dengar, 4-Lom, IG-88, Greedo, Bossk … who cares? Am I really going to have a team led by Greedo?!? All 5 of those guys should have been uncommons.

So am I missing something? Why is the price point so high? Why such a bad ratio for rares (and an even worse ratio for “mains”) compared to other games? Why does it seem like this is going to be a very frustrating game to collect?

blivengo
30 August 2004, 12:29 PM
Well...hmm...I don't deal with any of the other miniature games, and, even though it's Star Wars, I don't get into the card games (I played a little Magic way back in High School, but I never really got into the card games in general; I collected some of the SWCCG cards for a short while, but never actually played a game.)...so, all that said, I like the fact that the characters are the R/VRs...as a big fan of continuity (or at least, believability) I like the idea of it being unlikely for someone to make an entire army of Luke Skywalkers (now, I haven't read through the rules, so this may be impossible regardless of VR status, but speaking blindly out my ass I like the format)...it's an army building game, so it stands to reason that the army equivilents would be the commons and uncommons...and, as far as the bounty hunters, mercs, etc. go, I think this set is geared more toward the Galactic Civil War...later sets should have more Fringe-faction figures...

Now, if you're worried about the price, check Game Outfitter (http://www.gameoutfitter.com/). They seem to have very good prices from what I've been able to ascertain...that's where I've ordered my first case and a half from anyway...

ij thompson
30 August 2004, 02:34 PM
Precisely. You can get much better prices online, as blivengo suggested.

Also, you may want to think carefully about what you want the miniatures for. If they're for RPG purposes, then maybe you won't feel the need to pay top dollar for that Slave Leia or Emperor Palpatine (and if you happen to get one, you could do well in trades, through Maxminis.com, or somesuch). If you're a skirmisher/wargamer type, check out the figure stats on the WotC boards, create your army without spending a dime, and then go buy your chosen figures on the aftermarket (eBay, FLGS, etc).

But if you're a 'gotta have it all' collector type, then yes, you've got trouble. I'd recommend buying a case or two, making friends on the trading sites, and working with those fine folks to complete your collection (and theirs - what a coincidence! ;) ). Failing that, you can always hunt down every last man on the aftermarket.

I guess my advice is; buy a starter, play the game, and if it doesn't set that fire in yer belly, don't spend another dime! :D

Ghengis Ska
31 August 2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Artie Deco
I’m having trouble justifying buying into this game. The SRP for the boosters is going to be $13. That’s a very, very high price point. That’s as much as a starter set for other games.

For $13 you get 7 figures per booster, just under $2 per figure, which is comparable to other games, but in each booster you’re only going to get one rare?!? For $13 I would have expected more than that. At least better uncommons. Both Heroclix and LOTR TMG (both of which this new game will be competing against) have better ratios. Heroclix and LOTR TMG both have decent “uncommon” figures in their sets, but SW:MINIS does not. Even WOTC’s own SW:TCG has main character “uncommon” cards … I would have thought they would have used the same philosophy with this game.
But from my understanding Heroclixs also has no gaurantees that you will get a Rare in a pack. i have heard that is true for Mage Knight, and Mechwarrior. And honestly i don't see a direct competition bettween these games, i don't play either, Mage Knight, Heroclixs, or Mechwarrior and i only got into D&D minis to see what the SW game would be like. I have looked at HC, and MW in the past seen people play it tried it and to be honest the really did nothing for me. I admit when i first saw the games i kind of thought no stat cards were cool and things on the figs were nifty, but after picking the same figure up 6 times to look see what new thing it had and then having to refernce a stat card anyway i realised it was no better and you were always moving the figures somethign very annoying to me.


There are 27 R/VR figures in this game (if I counted right). That means at minimum you would have to buy 27 booster boxes to complete a set. At $13 each, that’s $351. (Most likely it would require even more than that, because of the “very rare” figure distribution.) And with those 27 boxes, you would have 108 common figures, or 6-7 copies of each figure. Do you really need 18 Stormtroopers to play this game? Do you really want 18 Stormtroopers?
No i don't want 18 stomrtrooper i want about 40. I also plan on using this for the RPG so yeah i want as many stormtroopers as possibly, and after reading the mass comabt rules in the D&D game i want about 200 stormtroopers to wage massive battles like Hoth, or Endor, so yeah i don't want 18 stormtroopers i want more. Do you you want 18 stomtrooeprs to play the game, well since there is no limit on # of figures in squad, and the combined fire rules, 18 stormtroopers would be very usefull for combined fire... don't know if the point cost works out but heck you might not need them but they would be handy.

I think it is 26 not 27...



The selection of “rares” is okay for rebel and imperial factions, but the “fringe” faction? Dengar, 4-Lom, IG-88, Greedo, Bossk … who cares? Am I really going to have a team led by Greedo?!? All 5 of those guys should have been uncommons.

So am I missing something? Why is the price point so high? Why such a bad ratio for rares (and an even worse ratio for “mains”) compared to other games? Why does it seem like this is going to be a very frustrating game to collect?

There was some talk that Greedo and some of these guys were going to be Uncommon, but at that point Greedo was a Rodian Bounty Hunter. There is a design mindset that all "named" figures are yes Rare or VR. Part of this comes into the fact that since these figures are unique, if they were uncommon as in D&D minis (most all iconics or unique named figures are uncommon), you would quickly end up with to many, i have multiples of ALL of the Unique uncommon D&D minis, and becuase they are uncommon it becomes very apperent that you can't get rid of them. I still have 6 of one unique D&D mini, useless for the Skirmish, fine for D&D RPG but well i can only feild one. If you had a Uncommon Unique Dengar, or Greedo you would get a bunch and not be able to use them in the game or even trade them.

Makeing them Rare keeps the trade value, and makes that if you get multiples of a unique figure which you can't use more than one of in the game you can trade it to some one who might have a double Tarkin while you have none.

dgswensen
31 August 2004, 11:19 AM
Seriously, you want a complete set or certain types of figures, wait a few weeks and buy lots or singles cheap on eBay.

I got into Mechwarrior: Dark Ages a few weeks ago and you can easily find whatever you want on eBay if you look. I personally never get into collectible anything looking to get a "complete set" (that's what they WANT you to do), but people are selling hundreds of figures dirt cheap on eBay. I'm sure the Star Wars mini game will be the same way.

Swoop the Jedi
1 September 2004, 06:59 AM
I am not as worried as before. When I went to the preview seminar at GenCon they left me feeling that the VR would be 1 every 3 cases. Now that would be expensive! But, the VRs will be 1 every 3 boosters and will replace the Rare in the booster. So I think your calculations are a little off Artie Deco, I found boosters for $8.25, and Starters at $13.00. So you don't have to spend as much to get them all. Besides this is a game of Armys. You are not allowed to have multiple copies of uniques out at once. So armies of Luke, you cannot have.

Jedi Cahlwyn
1 September 2004, 12:17 PM
These guys rock and usually have the best prices!

USA Comic Books (http://www.usacomicbooks.com/starwarscmg.html)

blivengo
1 September 2004, 12:35 PM
Those are really good prices, and they say that they'll start shipping today...I really hope I get my case before the weekend, or I may end up buying an over-priced one from my local comic book store...we shall see...

Fingon
2 September 2004, 05:01 PM
I plan to use these only for visual aids when playing SWRPG. I don't want to get into the premade minature game. I already have LoTR. With 16 inch elephants :D :D :D !

SpaceShot
7 September 2004, 12:05 PM
The fact that I can get minis for Star Wars play for a pretty cheap "per figure" price is very appealing to me.

The miniatures game rules will be tossed aside as soon as they are opened.

I played the D&D miniatures game. After two starter packs and two expansion packs, I could only make one possible combination of a standard army for standard skirmish rules. My friend bought over $300 worth of minis, and by the standard rules of the game he really only has about 5 options. The division of pieces into factions really hurts combinations.

Is this a flaw in the game? No. The game is well designed and reasonably fun to play. It often takes much longer than a normal RPG battle. No matter how you slice it, it just takes longer to control the 8-15 pieces on a board than the party and its immediate adversaries in an RPG.

So, based on this, we use the minis in our D&D RPG play and have a blast. The miniatures game is no longer considered for any gaming purposes with us.

Now comes Star Wars. I was excited at first, but with the introduction of Very Rare minis, I'm very disappointed. It will be nice to have a hoard of stormtroopers and generic rebel soldiers that I can use in my Star Wars games, but after just a few packs I should have plenty of those. I probably won't be able to own a very rare mini, and its too bad since some of th icons of the genre just look great. Still, I am far better server by getting another copy of Epic Duels. It's cheaper, and I get the major stars of the movies as well.

Mapmaker
7 September 2004, 02:22 PM
There are only three factions in Star Wars Miniatures: Rebel, Imperial, and Fringe...and Fringe characters can work in either of the other two groups.

At Gen Con, we had no trouble making serviceable 80 or 85-point squads (can't recall which) out of the miniatures from one Starter and one Booster.

As for the Very Rares...they're in one out of every three boosters, so "after a few packs" you are likely to have at least one. They're not as rare as the phrase "very rare" might suggest.

If you buy a case of boosters (a great way to get them at a better price), you should get every Common and Uncommon miniature as well as 12 Rare/Very Rare minis.

Ghengis Ska
7 September 2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Mapmaker

As for the Very Rares...they're in one out of every three boosters, so "after a few packs" you are likely to have at least one. They're not as rare as the phrase "very rare" might suggest.

The exact reason i don't consider them Chase figures. i have as of now just 11 boosters, so far i have 4, they aren't chase, it's not that bad actually, and i only have one double in the Rare catergory.

blivengo
7 September 2004, 03:33 PM
I actually wish there were 65 miniatures per set with the extra five being in an "ultra rare" category that are one per case tops...when I was younger I collected baseballs cards, and I remember when Tops came out with the Gold foil cards, then introduced the super-rare "Blackgold" cards...they were so cool...if you got one in a pack it was an instant school-yard status symbol...so, to go completely against the grain, I wish there were even more rare miniatures...plus, I can easily think of five more characters that should be included...say, Yoda for example...and I'd almost kill for a Rancor...

Reverend Strone
7 September 2004, 05:51 PM
I think the problem would be that you probably would have to almost kill to get them. I'm happy with the rarity the way it is. They're just rare enough not to bankrupt you if you need to resort to e-bay (at least i'm hoping so).

I'm sure there will be special promotional figures and exclusives in future that will satiate the hard core figure hunters in future who enjoy the thrill of a good chase. Me- I just want to be able to pick up what I need at a fair price and with minimal hassle.

Hightower
24 September 2004, 08:33 AM
I am not thrilled with the rarity. I am not necessarily a completist, but for those of us on a limited budget,the cost for getting even the 16 Rares is close to prohibitive.

I would prefer WotC do one of the following:

1. Decrease the number of figures in a booster, and decrease the price.
2. Increase the amount of R/VR in a booster to 2.

Just my $.02.

-Brad

Hightower
24 September 2004, 08:35 AM
I am not thrilled with the rarity. I am not necessarily a completist, but for those of us on a limited budget,the cost for getting even the 16 Rares is close to prohibitive.

I would prefer WotC do one of the following:

1. Decrease the number of figures in a booster, and decrease the price.
2. Increase the amount of R/VR in a booster to 2.

Just my $.02.

-Brad

Ghengis Ska
24 September 2004, 12:47 PM
I hate to sound like a jerk, but the Rarity is one of the reasons we have these.

It has been done to death at other sites etc, but it may bear repeating that the reason they can make a 60 figure set and do it every 4 months is the fact that there are rarity levels.

For Years we have had minis companies, raning from the Grendel/grenadier (can't remember which) WEG figures to Reaper to TSR to so many other companies. And what is one of the big problems with these lines...
the selection of figures.

The WEG line had about 200 figures over a 11 year run, they were spotty in avilabilty (i have never heard of anyone getting as many Stormtroopers as they wnated etc becuase everyone was looking for them too and these thigns were produced in a a way where the manufacture had to guess how many of X mini to produce. In just 4 sets which will be about a year there will 240 minis from the WotC more than the other company put out in 11 years, partly becuase of the rarity level. So you can get Peg/Shelf warmers and over or short stocks of figures if you guess wrong, and it happens happened all the time, Stormtroopers and Jedi sell out all the time Gungans and jawa sit around taking up space. And if you do this with 60 figures you can go bankrupt quick. The WEG and many other single shot, none rare minis producers make about 15-20 at a time and keep them in production for a limited time then make another, they can't afford to guess wrong on 60 figures. So they have small runs and a small selection becuase they make all the same number. and hope everyone is happy.

This causes several headaches to retaliers, dealing with ordering and inventory.

The way the new WotC minis are packed you get a "random" product wich is shelf neutral. You order one thing, it sits there and since every box is the same random product the only peg/shelf warmers are from a crappy game or expansion. Not the individual box. you also only have to track 1 to two items, not the 60 in the line.

And for these minis companies we have seen products that are simple selling for a lower price and complext and larger ones selling for a higher price. We also tend to not see many odd figures that may not want to be bought be everyone, or in large numbers there are a few ways to deal with that guess again at the number to produce and hope you are right and dont piss off the customer or the retailer, either way is a good way to kill your product. No one buys it or sells it, no profit no product. or don't do it, or spend a ton of money on research to get the amount right. If you go with the first one and guess and guess low on purpose to make fewer of the tricky minis then you might be able to save some money and not take a bath, or you could find out excatly how many you need and spend alot, which is transfered to the cost of the figure. What ever way it comes down to these odd but still wanted figures tend to be higher priced.

Now we add in the rarity level of Common/Uncommon/Rare and you can start to put in figures that would be harder to produce are the odd balls the things everyone may not want but are still cool peices, make them uncommon or rare, or even Very rare. The Oddness or extra cost to produce can me made up for by putting it into a less produced figure. You make some, and produce less to get the cost so you can make them at all. It also makes them rare in the fact that they will be produced less, but that may not be a bad thing, espically if you tell everyone they

So there is a point for rarity.

We have also seen that in many cases RPG alone is not Going to sell minis. What was the demand on the WEG for just minis, unknown, but alot of people also bought them to use with Miniature Battles. So there was another game to support it. WotC tried the minis by them self and has tried a game by themself neither was a big hit. the SW minis had all of the stocking problems etc of ordering guessed production and sellouts and peg warmers. It also only had the RPG to support so was never a big draw. Chainmail was a game that was desigened non-rare and had many of the same problems with shelf warmers and figures everyone wanted and no one wanted and was canceled. It tried to have the RPG support but never pulled it off.

They started over and made a product for both a Game in it's own right and designed to go with the RPG. It was called D&D minis. Now looking at the problems of all of the other lines and looking at games and products that DO SELL. The realised hey collectable things suddenly add in a new dimension, you make some figure rare, and you sell more product it worked in magic, Heroclicks and countless of other games.
It allso allowed them to make som figures that would not have been made be made becuse you can make some odd stuff, make it a rare, uncommon and save costs and make it.

The rarity scheme while not the greatest thing in the world, and worse than D&D with another level, is one of the reasons we have the product at all.

Increasing the number to two will not happen, becuse then they wont be "rare" it's the whole point they are produced in a smaller number. the price will also GO UP if they do it, has been said on the WotC page the reason all of the Large figures are VR was cost of production, you want more of them in a booster, means more cost.

Decrease the number of figures, to what? it is already lower than D&D minis, which has 8. and averages to about 1.85 per figue (most of that being UG cut, and the higher cost in the materials used (Clear plastic, better paint jobs etc, full color book and cards, the D&D minis started out $3 less with none of those things the higher price is partly due to the highr quality. D&D minis now has the full color, better paint etc and is the same price.

You want it like Whiz kids, 5 (or now 4 and a piece of paper) minis but no guarnteee of a rare, it is how they keep their costs down. The purposly short pack Rares, to keep prices lower. they can seel more by not even putting a rare in. some times i have heard not even an uncommon. I wouldn't buy just 4 figures for $7 it is the same price, pretty much per figure, more actually than the D&D.

Hightower
25 September 2004, 10:14 AM
Ghengis,

You make some very good points. Another alternative would be to change the amount of Commons, Uncommons, Rares and Very Rares per set. For a 60-piece set, something along the lines of:

22 Commons
18 Uncommons
12 Rares
8 Very Rares

There are a few factors that affect what we see in the SW line as opposed to other "Collectible Miniatures Games" like HeroClix or LOTR TMG. First, Star Wars is meant to do double (or triple) duty, with the figures available to be used for the RPG, the Miniatures rules or even the old WEG miniature battles rules, as well as being a collectible. Not so with Heroclix or LOTR.

I like the fact that there are 60 different figures in a 60 figure set with Star Wars, where as the initial Marvel Heroclix release had 12 Uniques and 3 different versions of 36 miniatures, for a total of 48.

From a purely collectible point of view, the cost out of pocket goes up, but it is definitely "cooler".

Ghengis Ska
27 September 2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Hightower
Ghengis,

You make some very good points. Another alternative would be to change the amount of Commons, Uncommons, Rares and Very Rares per set. For a 60-piece set, something along the lines of:

22 Commons
18 Uncommons
12 Rares
8 Very Rares

There are a few factors that affect what we see in the SW line as opposed to other "Collectible Miniatures Games" like HeroClix or LOTR TMG. First, Star Wars is meant to do double (or triple) duty, with the figures available to be used for the RPG, the Miniatures rules or even the old WEG miniature battles rules, as well as being a collectible. Not so with Heroclix or LOTR.

I like the fact that there are 60 different figures in a 60 figure set with Star Wars, where as the initial Marvel Heroclix release had 12 Uniques and 3 different versions of 36 miniatures, for a total of 48.

From a purely collectible point of view, the cost out of pocket goes up, but it is definitely "cooler".

Those numbers are pretty close to what i had initally guessed/hoped the set would contain
· 8 Very Rare
· 16 Rare figures.
· 22 Uncommon figures.
· 14 Common figures.

And was bassed off of D&D miniatures style distrubution, taking a VR pretty evenly from each line, i think it was a little more heavily from the Uncommon than other, don't remember now, that was months ago.

Yes there are more factors that effect the SW minis and the Double/Triple duty of the sW minis also makes VR more Sense from Wotc Point of view.

This line is designed, and yes they planed on a secondary market, they were very open about it with D&D minis and it is the same desgin managment in many respects. But back to the point the games is designed to serve three groups of people and tries to cross those three groups over each other. the are aimied at the
RPG player
Skirmish player
Hardcore SW collector.

Now the Skirmish player depending on what he comes from as a background CCG/TCG etc is going to know and expect C/U/R carda and certainly knows about "VR"concept in the form of foils and what not, the Whiz kid player also will know about Rookie, Experinced, Vetern (what ever they are) unique (don't play it to know the real levels), and it really should not be a shock to them, it is par for the course in these types of games. Rareity level is a "given", and WotC has gone to great levels to try to be freindly they guarntee a Rare or VR, something not every company does, and a question asked more than you would expect on the WotC boards becuase of people used to ither companies that don't give R as a guarntee. But they also know it sells product so aren't trying to give the game away.

Also for the Skirmish player since all VR and R characters are the Uniques, Luke, Vader, Obi, Leia, Han, Chewie etc if they were Anything other than Rare or VR you would hear Complaints left right and center becuase comming from the D&D skirmish where Unique Iconic Characters Are uncommon people begin to Hate them, there are alot of people who have sadi make all Uniques in D&D rare. Every Unique Iconic character from the D&D game i have at least three of, some upwards of 8. For Skirmish they are useless, becuase they can only field one at a time, and for trade they are usless becuase every other person has them too, becuase they are uncommon. You can't trade them away that much, becuase no one wants them. So if they were anything other than rare they would be crapp for the Skirmish for many reasons. Also by making them rare you can amke the skirmish people happy by making them stronger figures.

The RPG player How many Obi wan's Princess Leias, Luke Jedi do you need? 1 at the most, and for an RPG stand pont you don't really need any, unless your players enter act with the all of the time, and if they do, there are ample oppertunites to get other versions of the figures, so these for RPG aren't really that great, if you ae going to customize them for your RPG then there are eaiser things to customize. For an RPG player the Common, and Uncommon figures are rhe figures tou want in droves, and get so the 1 rare you get can be fun and usefull for the RPG or provide you with trade fodder...

Now here is the last person this game is designed for the HC SW collector. He wants the figures, raning from the guy who just wants 1 of each and 60 figures, to the guy who is like the action figure collector and wants 100 Stormtrooper to set up the emporers arrival at the DS...
Now for the Collector these being rare VR can be a pain in the butt, becuase they will end und up with so many C and U... but here is where WotC actually Planed on the secondary market. they know about E-bay, and RPG/Comic shops that will sell packs of Stormtroopers for the RPG player, or skirmish player, and single VR R for the skrimsih to pick up the missing, or the Collector to get one guy. The Collector who buys a bunch of packs, can then also go and sell his extra stromies to the RPG or Skirmsh, or trade them what ever. it was done on purpose and considering both the brisk sales of D&D and SW minis on auction sites as well as trade boards, it worked.

Do i like the number ov VR no, do i think they are bad per say no, i htink the serve a purose in the scheme of things, but just think they need to change the number a bit, I will agree with you on that.

As to the multple versions of figures, like in HeroClicks i hated it, i looked at it, i think it was over done, a few versions are nice but how many spiderman figures are there now? it is just silly...

I would not mind a few versions of SW figures, and i would actually like resculpts, the same game stats with a new scuplt to allow new players to get the same power level figure, but not put power creep into the game, or have 12 versions to try to rememeber. A few variations are cool but not 12. That i lke and have seen a bit with the D&D lines.

Bloodcat
30 September 2004, 10:04 PM
Multiple posted and it wouldnt let me delete.

Bloodcat
30 September 2004, 10:05 PM
Multiple posted and it wouldnt let me delete.

Bloodcat
30 September 2004, 10:06 PM
Or they could just do what their parent company (Hasbro) is doing with Heroscape.

Release a mindblowingly cool boxed set that's 1/2 hero figures and 1/2 legendary squads, and bring out booster packs later on that are based around certain squads. (In fact the designers of said game, Heroscape, blast blind buy miniatures, something many of us minis gamers do.)

I mean, figure they used the basic Heroscape sell setup for this game.
Probably 50 for the core set instead of Heroscape's 40, but the Flanneled One needs his cut after all! :P

It has 30 figures, 2 of which are BIG. Let's assume they want to break these down to more manageable figures for Star Wars, giving us 32 figures. 28 Humanoid size, and 4 small vehicles, probably 2 speeder bikes, and 2 Landspeeder sized craft.

Lets say 14 heroes. They could go with:
Luke (Episode 4)
Han
Leia (Episode 4)
Chewbacca
Darth Vader
Darth Maul
Emperor Palpatine
Jedi Anakin
Boba Fett
Prequel Obi Wan
Yoda
Jango Fett
Mace Windu
Lando

Ok, we now have all the major heroes and villains everyone would want. We still have 14 soldier slots left. Heroscape makes all units in the main box unique so 1 player can never use more than 1 of them. Which means if we want massive hordes of the grunt units we need to make special elite squads for this box set. But players are gonna want Stormtroopers, so we kinda have to go EU or make new units.

Thats fine. We will make 5 squads, 1 for each main faction in the box!

Rebel: Elite Unit from Planet X
Imperial: Royal Guards, Dark Troopers, or Zero G Stormtroopers.
Old Republic: Another planetary exclusive elite squad.
CIS: Maybe Droidekas?
Fringe: Probably a cool generic bounty hunter team or some of Jabba's Goons with generic statlines.

Of course each faction other than Fringers gets 1 of the vehicle models. Probably an AT PT command unit for the Imperials, A Naboo Flash Speeder piloted by Panaka for the Old Republic, maybe Wedge's Snowspeeder for the Rebels, and that small Battle Droid transport they made for the Lego figures or an elite STAP.

Not to mention they can rerelease the vehicles in the packs I am about to describe with different paint apps and statlines.

Now, we need our grunts and continued sales, right?

That's where the visible booster packs come in. 1 light vehicle or 2 secondary characters plus a 5 man squad for 10-15 dollars depending on the size of the vehicles in the pack. To sell some of the less popular ones, just throw a fan favorite character in the pack as one of the characters. It also sells the characters as a MINOR part of the pack for those army builders. Hell, you could put different characters in the character slots giving army builders incentive to buy more than one squad!

I mean, an Imperial set could have a Speeder Bike, a secondary character slot with options for Mara Jade, Tarkin, Piett, and so on, with a 5 man squad of Stormtroopers easy. Larger sets could be just a character and a close to scale vehicle kit like the AT ST and such.

Im mostly bringing this up as a counter to the "Blind buy is the BEST way to do a minis game!" arguement, and the fact that WOTC's parent company has a miniatures game out there right now that does this!

Not to mention my group will use the modular 3d Heroscape scenery for our games and never worry about diagonal movement since it uses hexes. Or if we find the minis game lacking, people have already converted the entire Rebel Storm set over to be used in that game.

I generally sigh about the collectible bits of most minis games, buy a small amount of boosters then buy cheap singles of the common/uncommon figures to build up a proper force. It works pretty well. I rarely get to trade, either because my group doesn't have much to trade, or in SW Minis case, 2 of the 4 players we have are buying a case of it which means there won't be much I can trade for when they have it all, outside of common grunt for common grunt.

(I plan on making the Jawa Liberation Front as one of my armies in the game, backed up by Gamorrean Guards. One of the case buyers wants an Ewok army, so we can trade a little to help each other out.)

Ghengis Ska
1 October 2004, 07:30 AM
But then you fall into the big trap of the above mentioned stuff. While Heroscape has 30 figures, it is half the number as what they did in the first set, and for $40. They are keeping costs down by having a smaller line. half of what is there in the first release, with 60 more due in a few months. Yes Heroscape has an expansion due out in Jan, but it is what maybe another 30 figures i think it is more like 20, done in none blind which means if everbody loves the robots, they would sell out and you coudl never get any and you would have tons of the Marine grunts sitting around on the pegs taking up space.

(happens all the time with action figures, hasbro made Army builder packs, Droids, Droidekas, Jedi Clone troopers, there are/were ALWAYS drodiekas peg warming and NEVER any Jedi, maybe you can get some Battle droids and rarer still you can find Clone troops but it took me months to find the one Jedi pack i got)

You want them to drop it down to 32 figures, and guess what there is a game that already did just that, 30 figures called Epic Duels. Had everyone you list except Chewbacca and Lando. The game sold okay, but A LOT of people were buying it for RPG use, becuase it came with Stormtroopers, Clone Troopers and Battle droids, plus a few more.

You want the elite squads, but to get the 50 or so stromtroopers i have now, i couldn't becuase you don't even have any. becuase of the unique factor, that will kill the game for me, I would never buy that becuase it just doesn't do anyhting for me the new line, the expansions will have the problems of being open you will never find the factions people want to play the Imperials would always sell out as people try to grab up more and more of the Strormies. While the rules say they are unique, noone will listen and run the game the way they want, it happens in everygame like this, they will nerf the elite aspects of the stormies and run them like the movies, or how they want and just use hordes of them and they will never be around.

You have already modified the Minis rules tou suit your needs, people will too with this but the problems is at $40 a pop, you can get enough of the stormtroopers etc.

Then there are the OTHER people like RPGerw who want and are buying these minis and would get TOTALY shafted by that set up. I want need more than 4 stromtroopers to run an RPG, doesn't happen in your set up.

While the way may not be perfect it seems alot better than your proposed method.

and the bigthings you talka about have been done in D&D, where they made a line of them, learning from the mistakes, an ATST would be the common, some of the other things like ATPTS could to, and the odd ball more complex things like the Acklay the rares.

The Heroscape method really doesn't give you any of the VR style figures. The luke, vader etc would not have the cool translucent sabers, the very complex Probe droid etc. thee HGeroscape figures while decent are just that decent to flash or style...

Bloodcat
2 October 2004, 01:14 AM
Umm.. Heroscape can't have nice figures because of why?

A model is a model, and the Heroscape minis pretty much match SW Minis in sculpts and paint apps. I would say many Heroclix minis outsculpt them both, though with generally lesser paint apps.

I wouldn't diss Heroscape though. Its getting HUGELY popular. Everyone I show the game to goes out to buy their own box within a week or so, and they are all trying to save up money for a SECOND box just for the terrain. Hell, its almost worth 40 bucks at the evil Wally Mart just for the terrain alone!

I don't think you understood what I meant about the regular troopers. They get to be in the booster boxes so folks can have hordes of dudes while the starter set is mostly hero and unique squad types.

And so what if certain sets sell more than others? You just put more of them to a case than the less popular squads.

Its CONSUMER friendly. Blind buy collectibles are NOT consumer friendly, they are CORPORATE friendly, because they are forcing you to buy blind in the hope you get what you want, or oops! Buy MORE boosters. If you don't have people to trade with, or your group are full of Mr Suitcase types, you aint gonna get rid of all those stupid Bespin guards you simply do not want!

Then again, WOTC has a history of selling product that isn't consumer friendly. Type 2 Magic blocks, D&D 3.5, SWRPG line then SWRPG Revised within a year's time, Magic Online... These things aren't customer friendly, they are nearly Games Workshopsian in sheer customer abuse!

And you know why Chainmail failed? The Minis were unpainted, rarely iconic, and were for a game that was just ANOTHER SKIRMISH GAME in a market PACKED with skirmish games. (I would say the old WEG SW Minis game failed because it was awful though. I mean, it was BAD.) It was competing against GW's Mordheim and Mage Knight. The hardcore minis gamers already had Mordheim and the casuals had Mage Knight. And those are only the tip of the iceberg. I remember trying to explain how Chainmail was doomed from the start back on Usenet and nobody listened. D&D minis does well because D&D players are a HUGE base of people, and the current D&D ruleset is built with miniatures in mind. People are buying it for prepainted easy to use pieces for D&D games, just like I did with Mage Knight. Not too many are using D&D minis to actually play the D&D minis game. A fair percentage of the Chainmail stuff wasn't useful for general D&D games.

Star Wars minis has the benefit of being aimed at a crowd who LOVES buying toys and collecting stuff without WOTC's CCG monkey on its back. (Basically Decipher players who are so passionate about their game the new game is basically what killed their beloved game.) Nobody who RPs in my area will go NEAR a Star Wars RPG. I know. I killed a D&D group when myself and the host decided to switch to Star Wars. 4 people just up and left. (The fact that we KNEW they would leave is a tale for another day..) The sales of the SW RPG aren't hot at all. Not too many people will be using these minis for that. The game needs to stand on its own, and the blind buy will hurt its chances with gamers, many of whom ignore the collectible genre for being a huge money sink. (And rightly so.) The toy collectors would probably eat this game up if they could choose what to buy.

But its only sold to the hobby crowd, and is being given the usual barely existant treatment that is the hallmark of WOTC's Star Wars product lines. Where are the exclusives in Toyfare, Scrye, & Inquest? Why didn't the SW Trilogy DVD or Star Wars Battlefront come with an exclusive mini and some promotional materials?

Mechwarrior Dark Age has been promoted with the Battletech videogames, and it doesn't have 1 tenth of the potential sales of Battlefront or the Trilogy DVD.

I would go into more depth, but its late, long day at work, and I am kinda rambling on now..