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Deck
20 September 2004, 02:01 PM
Hello dear fellows!

Now that the DVD version of the Classic Trilogy finally has been released, this topic has been opened to discuss it. Especially interesting are the new changes that have been made once again. It would be nice if we could find all changes that have been added. So when you watched it feel free to post your comments and thoughts here! :)

Happy watching!

~ HiAd Chris

Aldaron
20 September 2004, 06:50 PM
Okay...my opinon, and the changes I can think of.

First up, I loved it - seeing SW on a big screen with surround sound was just...well, you know what I mean. I think they did a terrific job.

Now...changes (that I can think of - I only got it last night and stayed up all night, so I've only watched it through once! :D )

All episodes: general cleaning up of the picture - excellently done. It was crisp, clear, with vibrant colours and beautiful contrast. Most matte lines have been removed, and the garbage boxes around elements in the space shots are almost all gone (there's a couple of notable exceptions, especially in the escape from the DS battle).

Episode IV
Luke's (well, Anakin's) lightsabre still looks a bit "aqua" coloured to me - not quite "blue" enough - it does look like they've changed it a bit, though, I think.

Obi-wan's lightsabre is finally fixed so that it doesn't look like a lighbulb on a stick when pointed at the camera. It's not perfect, but it's better than it was. I didn't think to check for the wire up his sleeve - I'll do that tonight when I watch them again! :D

I think (not sure, here) there might be an extra shot or two in the final battle over the DS - just quick "ship shots".

The infamous Greedo blaster shot is still there - I'll have to look at it again; Lucas said in an interview that they'd cleaned it up and made Han's movement more realistic, but to be honest, I didn't notice any difference the first time around.

Jabba looks better than in the original SE. More 3D, and Han actually casts shadows on him, this time. The tail-step is still there, though, and it still looks pretty fake.

Vader's lightsabre now stays red, too, which was a nice fix!

Episode V
Luke's lightsabre looks better here - more bluish than aqua-coloured.

The Hoth battle scenes seem a bit crisper - but this is probably just the general (fantastic) improvements to the overall film quality.

One thing they didn't do (which I'd heard they would) was smooth out the stop-motion taun-tauns and walkers. They haven't changed them at all - they still look great, it just would have been nice for them to update 'em a bit.

The wierd emperor from ESP has been replaced with Ian McDiarmid's emperor. The dialogue has also been altered somewhat - Palpy specifically refers to "the rebel who destroyed the Death Star" as being "the offspring of Anakin Skywalker". Nothing big - just a bit more specific, I guess.

Boba Fett now has Temuera Morrison's voice - which is actually really cool. I was a bit concerned about this, but Morrison gets it bang-on, and now with the added chill of sounding just like dear old dad! :D

Lightsabres have been cleaned up a bit - the glow now seems more suffused.

And Luke's girlie-scream has been removed!!!!! YAY!!!

Episode VI
I think there's a few extra characters floating around Jabba's palace (but I could be wrong here).

Luke's lightsabre is fixed - again, the glow is diffused, now, rather than looking painted on.

The unmasked Vader's eyebrows have been removed, and he now has Hayden's eyes - looks good; I couldn't pick that it was done artificially.

Hayden replaces Sebastian Shaw in the "ghost shot" at the end.

There is a celebration scene on Naboo been added in. Fortunately, Jar-Jar is nowhere to be seen (unless he's one of the tiny, barely visible Gungans on a rooftop).

One problem I had with RotJ was the lightsabres duing the final duel. There seems to be some kind of artifact within the blade itself - almost like the person editing each cell left the occasional line of "paint" along a blade.

Maybe it's just my DVD player - I'd be curious to see if anyone else has noticed the lightsabres in the end being a bit "odd" looking.

Oh...and once or twice Vader's sabre looks more pink than red, but I think that's a holdover from the original, if memory serves.

I've no doubt missed a gazillion other things...but this should get everyone started! :D

All in all, though - definitely worth my money! :D

*heading off to watch 'em again*

ij thompson
20 September 2004, 08:23 PM
Man, I wish I hadn't just phoned in sick on Thursday...

that blasted George Lucas is gonna get me fired! :P

p.s: Does Vader's saber blade still cast a shadow on the floor in RotJ?

Darth Fierce
21 September 2004, 03:25 AM
Visited http://cnn.com today, which has a wrap-up of the changes made by Lucas in the DVD version of the Original Trilogy...






Keep Going...













Almost There...















They listed five of the most major changes made in the release:

1. The "whatyamacallit" scream isn't used by Luke in ESB.
2. Redone CG Jabba in ANH.
3. Replacing Jeremy Bulloch's voice as Boba Fett with Temuera Morrison in ESB.
4. The addition of Naboo in RotJ.
5. The change to Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker's Force Spirit in RotJ--grr :mad:. Really I think since Lucas was going to make this change, he should have also included Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan.

What I want to know is if the stormtroopers all have the same voice now...

Darth Fierce :vader:

Aldaron
21 September 2004, 05:06 AM
I actually think the biggest change was in the colour and clarity - it was so much crisper and vibrant than my (admittedly much-played} VHS versions.

Lucas explains in the bonus materials why he went for a "young" Anakin and "old" Obi-Wan. It was to do with how they were when they died.

Anakin "died" when he was "betrayed and murdered" by Darth Vader - ie: in Episode III, as a young man. His brief "reappearance" at the end of Epsidoe VI, as a middle-aged man dying in Luke's arms, was really a holdover from that.

In other words, the Jedi appear as they did when their true selves died. Obi-Wan and Yoda had died within the last few years, old. Darth Vader had just died, but Anakin had died two-dozen years before.

Something like that.

Nope, they haven't changed the stormtrooper voices. Considering stormtroopers are of different heights, I think my assumption that they come from a variety of "templates" (not just Jango Fett) might well be true. This would explain the height variance, as well as the voices.

It would also still allow for unarmoured stormtrooper officers to be seen occasionally (I'm still convinced that the guy Vader orders to "send a detachment down to retrieve them, Commander. See to it personally..." in the start of Epi IV was stormtrooper officer.

VixenofVenus
21 September 2004, 07:44 AM
I got my copy last night at midnight ... but my roommate could only make it through ANH, and I only made it to the 'stones' scene with Yoda before my eyelids got too heavy ... but the changes I've seen so far are awesome.


The infamous Greedo blaster shot is still there - I'll have to look at it again; Lucas said in an interview that they'd cleaned it up and made Han's movement more realistic, but to be honest, I didn't notice any difference the first time around.

We put in the Special Edition videos on my 2nd tv so we could watch them side-by-side, and there is a definite difference between Han's jerky "blaster-dodge" he does in the SE compared to the jerk reaction to Greedo's shot. Also, the timing is different, instead of Greedo shooting about 1 to 1.5 seconds before Han does, now they shoot almost at the same time.

blivengo
21 September 2004, 08:09 AM
Well, my set was delivered to the office at about 10:00 am and, despite my better judgement, a collegue and I have scoped out most of the major changes...we agree that they are all top-notch...I'm so excited about getting home and watching these that I'm actually contemplating faking illness...I really like the improved Emperer scene in Empire, and, though this seems to be the biggest point of differing opinions, I liked the young Anakin "Force spirit"...I especially like the way he sort of fads in; however, he still seems a little evil...I guess he just couldn't get over playing Vader in Episode III and now his face is stuck like that...oh, and I liked (since he feels he has to keep it) the fix on the Jabba scene...the tail-stepping thing seems to make Jabba mad this time, instead of making him look like a surprised anime character...

Overall, this is a definite A+...the best thing about them has to be the quality...I'm watching them on a dinky LCD monitor and they look fantastic...I can't wait to get home and watch them on my TV...

Tony J Case, Super Genius
21 September 2004, 09:52 AM
I got mine last night, home by midnight - far too late to watch any of the movies (And even so, I was up until 3 watching documentary stuff).

The set looks fantastic. Really, really cleaned up. I couldnt crank the sound being 3 and all, but it sounded very solid. And DAMN, there's a lot of extras floating around. I wish they had done 2 discs per movie, but we gotta save something for the 6 disc Super Set coming in aught-6 right?

cheshire
21 September 2004, 10:17 AM
I wish they had done 2 discs per movie, but we gotta save something for the 6 disc Super Set coming in aught-6 right?

I'll bet that's when they release the deleted scenes for the OT on DVD.

Thinithil
21 September 2004, 10:57 AM
Half through New Hope and Got to go to work. #&^(&$@$. Love Obi-Wan's nuances as he tells Luke his background and explains the Force. There really isn't any problem so far connecting what Obi Wan says and the prequels.

Is it me? I think they changed Obi-Wan's Krayt Dragon call to scare off the Sandpeople!

Can't wait for tonight to finish it and Empire at least.

wolverine
21 September 2004, 11:59 AM
Looking at the below, myonly real beaf is the boba fett voice change. I actually liked J bullok.

Dr_Worm
21 September 2004, 01:11 PM
Question: Did they finnaly fix R2's black panels in ANH. The fixed them in the other films, but never in ANH. That is one thing that always bugged me.

johnnyputrid
21 September 2004, 02:17 PM
As far as A New Hope goes, a small but noticable change is that the lettering on the tractor beam controls that Obi-Wan disables is now in Aurebesh instead of English. Minor, but pretty cool.

Jabba looks much better also. He does seem to get mad when Han steps on his tail. And now Han fires only a few fractions of a second behind Greedo. It was obvious Han was gonna fry him anyway, but now it really looks like Han was gonna fry him.

The lightsabers look pretty good. Vader's saber is red instead of pink, though Luke's still looks whiteish, and even greenish at one point, when he's training with the remote. Obi-Wan's saber looks very blue, and doesn't look as fake as it used to.

And for those of who who've checked out the bonus disk, you've probably looked at the Episode III game mini-doc. Or did you? You should. The game looks pretty sweet, and they've hinted that you'll get to play as Obi-Wan or Anakin for the final duel. Gee, tough decision there.

Mostly I was floored by the cleaness of the film. They've removed all the dirt from the film, which makes looking at all the dirt on the vehicles, equipment, etc. even better. Cleanest looking dirt in any film I've ever seen.:D

Nova Spice
21 September 2004, 05:02 PM
Just finished watching Empire of Dreams, and I have to hand it to them. That was the be-all, end-all of the Star Wars saga as far as the story behind the films go.

I'm about to watch A New Hope tonight. And if it wasn't for that blasted Biology Lab tomorrow, I'd be watching the others too! :P

Aldaron
21 September 2004, 05:57 PM
Oh, yeah! How could I forget the Krayt Dragon call! :D

Definitely been spiced up.

Also, I think they've added even more stormtroopers to the scene where Han chases the stormtroopers around the corner on the DS and then comes to a sudden stop.

One of the "problems" I'm facing is that we got our wide-screen TV and home cinema system last Christmas, but have never connected a video player to it, so I've only ever watched the video of Star Wars on our old, normal sized TV set downstairs.

But now, watching it on widescreen, I'm picking up so many "little" things that I'm not sure if they were added or if they've always been there.

Case in point: something which has no doubt always been there, but which I never saw until the night before last - when Vader first walks in after the battle on the Tantive IV, he kicks a piece of charred door, which skitters across the floor in front of him.

Silly little thing, I know - but something I've seen in 27 years of watching Star Wars however many gazillion times! :D

Oh, and it's now obvious that Vader mustn't have used his lightsabre in a while (we know Obi-Wan used it on Tatooine). There are several impacts where a little cloud of dust flies off the blades! :D

Aldaron
21 September 2004, 06:12 PM
I'm just going thru the Epi IV duel frame by frame on my computer, and they've also left in the couple of odd frames where Obi-Wan has the red lightsabre and Vader the blue! :D

Nova Spice
21 September 2004, 07:48 PM
Some other things I just noticed, is that Luke has a green lightsaber during the first scene with the training remote and they've also greatly expanded the detention block corridor. Check out how long that thing is now! :D

Oh, and is anyone else experiencing a scrambling-like flash during certain scenes (i.e. when Han shoots Greedo, when Leia shoots the garbage chute, when the droids blast off in the escape pod).

I just returned one set of the DVDs tonight for another set because I thought my DVD's were screwed up. But the scrambling appears at the very same spots on the second set.

Rostek
21 September 2004, 08:04 PM
It's most likely you're DVD player then, Nova :rolleyes: that's no fun.
Getting the DVD set this Thursday... as a bribe to go to the dentist 8o
But you'll have that, hehe. At least there's no drilling involved.

Thinithil
21 September 2004, 09:16 PM
Remember that scene when the stormtroopers come into the Death Star room where 3PO and R2 are hiding and one of the troopers whacks his head on the door? Lucas had some fun with that one--now there's this 'toink sound when the helmet hits! It's great!!

Treefrog
21 September 2004, 09:42 PM
I just saw a few of the additions/changes in Ep IV and VI, and I thought that they justified me getting the trilogy!

1) Counting all of my sets, I now have: THX-version OT, SE OT (Widescreen) and (Full Screen), and now the SE OT DVD.

2) As much as I hated that Greedo shot first, at least this time, Han moves his head to the right a little, so that Greedo misses!

3) The addition of Haydn Christian as the Anakin Force Spirit - I'm torn between liking it and hating it; At least Lucas didn't put HC in Vader's helmet when Luke takes his helmet off.

4) The addition of Theed to the celebration, it doesn't bother me.... yet!

5) Haven't watched ESB yet....... Tomorrow, defenitely!

Master Dao Rin
21 September 2004, 10:59 PM
After watching "The Return of Darth Vader" featurette, I know I'm going to be peeing my pants this May when the Big Black Guy makes his appearance again.

:D

Aldaron
22 September 2004, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
After watching "The Return of Darth Vader" featurette, I know I'm going to be peeing my pants this May when the Big Black Guy makes his appearance again.

:D

That was just awesome, wasn't it? That final shot where he just turns and looks at Palpatine, with the Imperial March playing in the background...I think I peed my pants already! :D

johnnyputrid
22 September 2004, 03:34 AM
I actually kind of like Hayden showing up at the end. He is Anakin after all, so I guess it makes sense. But don't you think he still looks a little ticked off there? I'm guessing he had trouble getting rid of the PO'd expression he seems to wear throughout Episode III.

blivengo
22 September 2004, 09:16 AM
I know what you mean Johnny...he definitely doesn't look as happy to be there as he should...makes me wonder if they just took the least pissed off shots of him in Episode III and used them...my favorite part of that scene is that he fades in instead of just being there...it's an interesting touch...

And to add my two cents to the table, the Episode III featurette made me want the movie to come out the next day so badly I could have almost exploded...I think I'll watch it again tonight...

johnnyputrid
22 September 2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by blivengo
I
And to add my two cents to the table, the Episode III featurette made me want the movie to come out the next day so badly I could have almost exploded...I think I'll watch it again tonight...

I must have watched that thing 10 times already. The final fight is gonna rock. Seriously, Hayden looks incredibly pissed at everything and everyone. Watching the OT again, and knowing that he's supposed to be in the suit added a fresh new depth to all of Vader's scenes, at least IMO. To me he seems even more menacing, knowing that he used to a little snot-nosed kid who said "Wizard" and "Yippee" all the time.

Nova Spice
22 September 2004, 05:29 PM
I must have watched that thing 10 times already. The final fight is gonna rock. Seriously, Hayden looks incredibly pissed at everything and everyone. Watching the OT again, and knowing that he's supposed to be in the suit added a fresh new depth to all of Vader's scenes, at least IMO. To me he seems even more menacing, knowing that he used to a little snot-nosed kid who said "Wizard" and "Yippee" all the time.

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

As many of the more veteran HoloNet members know, I've long thought the Prequels to be outstanding films, despite some poor dialogue at points. I think the culmination of Anakin's transformation and the release of Episode III will give the Prequel Trilogy the credibility and Star Wars greatness they deserve.


It's most likely you're DVD player then, Nova that's no fun.

Well, I found out it was my television, Rostek. It's been fixed. The DVD's don't scramble any more and I'm finally able to enjoy them for what they are.

Nova Spice
22 September 2004, 05:32 PM
In all my years here at the HoloNet, this is my first double post. Apologies.

Is it just me or is the HoloNet a wee bit too slow on the server side, tonight?

Gyp Ryol
22 September 2004, 06:19 PM
Grumble, mutter, mumble, grumble. I really loathe all of you with all of your "advanced planning" and "forethought" and "money." Whenever I see the commercial for the DVD's I squeal like a little girl and clap excitedly. One of these times I'll drive myself crazy enough to get out to the store.

Treefrog
22 September 2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Gyp Ryol
Grumble, mutter, mumble, grumble. I really loathe all of you with all of your "advanced planning" and "forethought" and "money." Whenever I see the commercial for the DVD's I squeal like a little girl and clap excitedly. One of these times I'll drive myself crazy enough to get out to the store.

Don't let it get you down... I, myself, had to sell one of my prized 3" figures (I won't tell which one), so that I could afford the DVDs.

johnnyputrid
22 September 2004, 07:31 PM
The only reason I had the cash for the DVDs was I quit smoking. That $3-a-day habit really adds up after a while. I actually had money to set aside for a change. Otherwise, I'd be waiting until payday like everybody else.

And I'm with you Nova. Supporting the prequels has become unpopular recently, but I continue on doing it anyway. My love of Star Wars encompasses all the films, novels, games, etc. They're not perfect, but they're way better than most of the drivel that passes for entertainment out there. Not that I'm bashing anyone who dislikes the prequels, but the new films need some love too.

Kelcheck
22 September 2004, 11:39 PM
Ok i have a serious question
Has anyone else noticed in A new Hope, during the escape from the death star scene, when the falcon is being chased by the 4 ties and luke/ Han are trying to shoot them down, I noticed several shots of the Ties that had faded squares that moved with the Ties. Almost like they missed restoring the area surrounding the TIE. Has anyone else noticed this, or did I get a Bad copy? Also does Wal-mart do exchanges/ returns or are they going to tell me to take it up with the manufacturer like they do with other products?

Aldaron
23 September 2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
Ok i have a serious question
Has anyone else noticed in A new Hope, during the escape from the death star scene, when the falcon is being chased by the 4 ties and luke/ Han are trying to shoot them down, I noticed several shots of the Ties that had faded squares that moved with the Ties. Almost like they missed restoring the area surrounding the TIE. Has anyone else noticed this, or did I get a Bad copy? Also does Wal-mart do exchanges/ returns or are they going to tell me to take it up with the manufacturer like they do with other products?

No, it's not you. In most of the space shots, they've removed the garbage mattes from around the elements, but there's a noticeable few spots where they haven't:

The bit you mentioned.
The asteroid field has a few.
The final battle over Endor has a few as well, IIRC.

I guess the quality control was 99% effective - :-)

Those odd shots are the 1% that got missed. :D

Aldaron
23 September 2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
Ok i have a serious question
Has anyone else noticed in A new Hope, during the escape from the death star scene, when the falcon is being chased by the 4 ties and luke/ Han are trying to shoot them down, I noticed several shots of the Ties that had faded squares that moved with the Ties. Almost like they missed restoring the area surrounding the TIE. Has anyone else noticed this, or did I get a Bad copy? Also does Wal-mart do exchanges/ returns or are they going to tell me to take it up with the manufacturer like they do with other products?

No, it's not you. In most of the space shots, they've removed the garbage mattes from around the elements, but there's a noticeable few spots where they haven't:

The bit you mentioned.
The asteroid field has a few.
The final battle over Endor has a few as well, IIRC.

I guess the quality control was 99% effective -:)

Those odd shots are the 1% that got missed. :D

Donovan Morningfire
23 September 2004, 05:22 PM
All I can really say is thank the Force that the Holy Trinity is out on DVD. It's been a long wait, but man was it worth it.

Overall, I thought these were an improvement over the SE versions, which I kinda liked anyways. Certainly not sad to see monkey-face Palpy or screaming Luke disappear. I still think they could have done a much better job on Jabba, though it was loads better than the SE 'toon version. Sarlacc monster looked a bit better, but I still prefer the original "pit" version.

While I will always prefer the Greedo-shoots-first version of the scene, at least they made it so Han appeared to making more of an effort to not get blasted, and that the shots are almost simultaneous (Greedo fires a fraction of a second before Han).

Revoicing all 4 Boba Fett lines I have no beef with. Seems very fitting to retcon using Timura's voice given what we now know about Boba's history. Just wish they'd ditched more of the girly scream as he goes careening.

Using Ian McDarmiad was something they should have done the first time around, and I liked the dialogue change. It did give you the hint that something was up, but I think it was only a spoiler for those of us that have seen these movies hundreds of times.

And yes, the EpIII teaser bit had me all shades of worked up. I was leary at first when I heard about the "redesigned" Vader, but after seeing the work they did, and that last image as he turns to face the Emperor ... words just fail to describe the surge I felt at that scene. I almost felt like I was 5 again and watching Vader stalk into view on the Tantive IV all those years ago. As well as seeing Hayden and Ewan going at it ... that fight scene is going to just flat-out rock.

Speaking of Darth Hayden, I also thought the touch-ups to Vader unmasked were flawless (and I was looking for some sign that the eyes had been replaced). As for the ghostly fade-in, nicely done, but yeah, would have been nice to have Hayden actually smile instead of smirk. On the matter of him replacing Mr. Shaw, I have no beef with Lucas' decision. Metaphysically, it does make a kooky kind of sense. Now that Anakin is free from the Dark Side's clutches, he probably chose to appear as the "residual self image" from before his fall, when he truly knew some measure of happiness and peace.

Overall, like I said at the top, it's been a long wait, but for me this has been more than worth it. While the original versions will always hold a special place in my memory, I can almost agree with Lucas in that the DVD versions are the "definitive" versions of the film.

Grimace
23 September 2004, 06:48 PM
Okay, I've held my tongue for long enough. Though I've yet to see the movies, I have to comment on the thoughts surrounding replacing the "old" Anakin with the younger Anakin.

People keep saying that it makes sense to have the younger Anakin, as that's when he was good. How many times did Luke say during the show "There is still good in you, I can feel it." ? The good in Anakin never really died off completely, and it was this that Luke was able to work upon. When Darth Vader picked up the cackling Emperor and pitched him down the shaft, the good kicked the bad completely out of Vader. It was then and there that was the "last time" that Anakin was really good. He saved his son from certain death, and killed the dark "master". If that didn't bring Vader back on the side of the Light, nothing could.

Add in the fact that we KNOW is brought Anakin back to the Light Side (thus the apprearance of his ghost with Yoda and Obi Wan), and couple it with the fact that Anakin was alive enough to have a conversation (albiet somewhat short) with Luke, and had the strength to tell Luke to tell his sister "you were right...", I'd say the last time Anakin was of good heart and the Light Side was right before his death. Since it was at a point in time in his life when he would be an old man, it makes PERFECT sense to keep the original actor (Sebastian Shaw) as the aged Anakin, rather than putting in the younger and (supposedly...to the younger audience) more recognizable Hayden Anakin.

All of the ghosts that have appeared have done so at the age at the time of their death, not at the time of their most good. If they were good hearted and of the Light Side, then they got to be a "ghost" or Force Spirit. It doesn't matter whether he was "more nice" in his younger years (which you really have to consider why they put him in at the age of his Jedi Knighthood, as that was the time relatively close to when he fell, if not during his fall. Why not have the young, innocent kid version?) what matters is that Vader made a sacrifice to save not only his son, but in a weird sort of way, the galaxy. That is what made him good at the last, and deserving of being an elderly ghost (the way it ORIGINALLY was).

So try to keep that in mind when you watch changes that are made that didn't NEED to be made, and in fact belittled the last heroic sacrifice of Anakin Skywalker who was once Darth Vader.

Shadowdeep
24 September 2004, 03:11 AM
Personally, I think Lucas' explanation is *just* a rationale for him to put Hayden into RoTJ, and thereby tie the trilogies together again. The 'when he was good' explanation is a bit far fetched in my opinion, but I suppose I sort of accept it. It's pretty shaky, but not entirely unreasonable.

Frankly, I was *never* happy with Sebastian Shaw as Anakin. He just didn't embody what I imagined Anakin to look like in middle age. Not that I necessarily *want* Hayden as Anakin in death, but it feels slightly better than Shaw (to me).

Shadowdeep
24 September 2004, 03:12 AM
Personally, I think Lucas' explanation is *just* a rationale for him to put Hayden into RoTJ, and thereby tie the trilogies together again. The 'when he was good' explanation is a bit far fetched in my opinion, but I suppose I sort of accept it. It's pretty shaky, but not entirely unreasonable.

Frankly, I was *never* happy with Sebastian Shaw as Anakin. He just didn't embody what I imagined Anakin to look like in middle age. Not that I necessarily *want* Hayden as Anakin in death, but it feels slightly better than Shaw (to me).

Darth Fierce
24 September 2004, 04:03 AM
Grimace, I could not agree with you more...which is why the whole adding Hayden to RotJ (which I believe is a ploy to get teenage girls smitten with "Anakin" to buy the redone OT DVDs) makes me a bit angry.

You make a good case Grimace with your explanation of how Darth Vader return to being Anakin...but I believe the resurrection of Anakin had begun long before Vader tossed old Palpy down the reactor shaft. If you watch closely at the scene on Endor where Vader and Luke have their conversation in which Luke states, "Then my father is truly dead..." Vader takes great injury to that remark, and slouches down at the end of the scene, realizing that unless he becomes the type of man he once was, then Luke's comment is right.

Therefore, Vader eventually gives up the hate he once was dominated by, and turns back into the good Anakin Skywalker, leading to the most touching scene of RotJ when he and Luke have their final conversation.

Therefore, my opinion:

Hayden in RotJ--boo, hiss :mad:
Sebastian in RotJ--yay, perfect! :D

Darth Fierce :vader:

Master Dao Rin
27 September 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Grimace
Okay, I've held my tongue for long enough. Though I've yet to see the movies, I have to comment on the thoughts surrounding replacing the "old" Anakin with the younger Anakin.

But did one of this opinion truly listen to what Lucas said?

Anakin DIED in Ep. III.

Exactly, btw, like Obi-wan said. Man, why doesn't anyone give Obi-wan any respect? :rolleyes:

This story is about the death and rebirth of Anakin Skywalker - not his spirit, only his body. Hence, Anakin was reborn at that moment when he redeemed himself. Then his body finally gave up. But his spirit died 25 years previous.

So, the change is perfectly in tune with Lucas' vision.

You can say Anakin's spirit has been around for 25 years, but was held back from materializing due to Anakin's body's dark side taint not letting go ... this is a metaphoric rebirth, hence why Anakin's body is finally allowed to rest and his spirit allowed to depart.

johnnyputrid
27 September 2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin


This story is about the death and rebirth of Anakin Skywalker - not his spirit, only his body. Hence, Anakin was reborn at that moment when he redeemed himself. Then his body finally gave up. But his spirit died 25 years previous.

So, the change is perfectly in tune with Lucas' vision.


My feelings exactly. I wish I could've said it so well myself. The more I watch the new DVDs, listen to the commentaries and compare them against the prequels, the more I "feel" what Lucas is trying to get across.

Remember that this is a story which he outlined over 30 years ago. Naturally, as his worldview changes, elements of his story will also change, but the core tale of Anakin's fall and redemption, and the relationship between himself and his son remains unchanged. It is only the "window dressing" of the saga that has changed over time. Lucas isn't asking anyone to agree with his changes, he's only trying to remain faithful to his original vision. I don't think you can really ask any more from a filmmaker than this. Ultimately he is only trying to present these films the way he wants them to be seen.

cheshire
28 September 2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin


This story is about the death and rebirth of Anakin Skywalker - not his spirit, only his body. Hence, Anakin was reborn at that moment when he redeemed himself. Then his body finally gave up. But his spirit died 25 years previous.

So, the change is perfectly in tune with Lucas' vision.

Personally, I don't think that Lucas has quite thought through a Star Wars metaphysic to that point. I think that he was just trying to visually represent that the young man is truly who Anakin is. The man he had grown to become was Darth Vader.

Either way, I don't like it.

*hugs his THX editions on VHS*

dgswensen
28 September 2004, 01:59 PM
Just my opinion here... but I think any visual storytelling that needs to be rationalized this much in order to make sense should probably be reworked -- or, in this case, left alone.

I think replacing Shaw with Hayden in ROTJ is a poor decision, not only unecessary, but muddying the storytelling waters significantly and continuing the dragging-down of the whole work Lucas has been engaged in since Episode I. So Anakin Skywalker redeems himself and becomes, in ghost form, the surly teenager he was thirty years previously? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Having never seen Anakin Skywalker in his adult form previously, it was easy to recognize him in the original final scene of ROTJ. The reworked version is going to seem odd at best, and, if you (or your kids) haven't seen the prequel trilogies, won't make an ounce of sense.

Again, not an attack on anyone here and their viewpoints on this, but I think that change was very poorly thought-out.

Hightower
28 September 2004, 03:18 PM
I am going to admit something here...I sort of lost interest in Star Wars after George made Ep1. Between it and the Special Editions, I was kind of mad that GL had messed around with how I had interpreted his movies.

I am still kind of mad that he keeps messing around with them, but at least there is finally a watchable version of the Trilogy that doesn't make me flinch every ten minutes.

ANH High points:
Fixing the Greedo shot
Fixing the lightsabers
"Thunk" sound when the Stormtrooper hits his head.

ANH Low Points:
Not restoring the Greedo shot to it's original condition
Jabba. I don't need him

ESB High Points:
McDiarmid's Emperor Palpatine Holo
Boba Fett's Voice
No more Luke girlie scream
Imperials on Executor Bridge during Millenium Falcon Escape are no longer mirror-image reversed.

ESB Low Points:
Resequencing the escape from Cloud City. I am used to hearing the music the way it was in the original, and having all the wipes from Vader leaving CC, to the Falcon, to Vader's Shuttle, to the Falcon, to Vader landing on SSD, to the Falcon is just plain annoying. I know that Vader ends up back on the Executor. Get on with it already!

RotJ High Points:
Um...

RotJ Low Points:
The musical scene in Jabba's palace is just plain silly.
Hayden instead of Sebastian.

Oh well. My opinion may not mean much, but it is mine.


:P

Darth Fierce
29 September 2004, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by dgswensen
Just my opinion here... but I think any visual storytelling that needs to be rationalized this much in order to make sense should probably be reworked -- or, in this case, left alone.

I think replacing Shaw with Hayden in ROTJ is a poor decision, not only unecessary, but muddying the storytelling waters significantly and continuing the dragging-down of the whole work Lucas has been engaged in since Episode I. So Anakin Skywalker redeems himself and becomes, in ghost form, the surly teenager he was thirty years previously? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Having never seen Anakin Skywalker in his adult form previously, it was easy to recognize him in the original final scene of ROTJ. The reworked version is going to seem odd at best, and, if you (or your kids) haven't seen the prequel trilogies, won't make an ounce of sense.

Again, not an attack on anyone here and their viewpoints on this, but I think that change was very poorly thought-out.

Wholeheartedly agreed...:)

Darth Fierce :vader:

Faraer
29 September 2004, 06:15 AM
At the end of Episode VI, Anakin Skywalker is restored. The best way to visually and viscerally convey the return of Anakin Skywalker is to show him as he appeared for the most screen-time in Star Wars (which is one story that happens to have been released in six parts for commercial convenience). Seems trivially obvious to me.

cheshire
29 September 2004, 11:04 AM
If you're talking about pure screen time, then it beggs the question why there is an old Obi-Wan and an old Yoda.

wolfe
29 September 2004, 11:42 AM
I dont see it as most 'screen time' but as he was before he went over to the dark side. he ceased to be anakin and became darth vader, hes anakin again..
but then if people dont like it they dont have to watch it, i dont keep any high expectations/judgements over movies.

Newt Reagan
29 September 2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by cheshire
If you're talking about pure screen time, then it beggs the question why there is an old Obi-Wan and an old Yoda.

1) you would have to do a lot more reshoot work and CGI to put Ewan into Eps V and VI, and 2) I doubt that Ewan would have wanted to do that to the memory of Alec Guiness. Plus Lucas would have even more people up in arms over that decision.

My own thought is that it is a continuity decision. For good or ill, Lucas has it in his mind that the viewing order is 1 - 6, not 4 - 6, then 1 - 3. That just happens to be how most of us have watched it. To tie in his continuity problems he has fidgeted around with things that don't necessarily match up, although IMO I would say that Ghost Anakin as Hayden just isn't worth it, and makes little sense to me. But to tie the whole product together, Lucas has decided that the Obi-Wan line from IV is correct (even though it was qualified by Guinness as "a certain point of view") as the official line of thought and rationalized his decision to change out Mr. Shaw. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this as I like Luke having a father figure rather than someone who looks younger than him standing at the side of his other influential figures.

But that's my opinion, so it really only matters within the space of this word box.

cheshire
29 September 2004, 07:20 PM
.
1) you would have to do a lot more reshoot work and CGI to put Ewan into Eps V and VI, and 2) I doubt that Ewan would have wanted to do that to the memory of Alec Guiness. Plus Lucas would have even more people up in arms over that decision.

I just think it had more to do with Lucas' concept of characters' identity than it did with screen time. It's his concept, it's his movie, and I think he just did what he thought best visually represented his idea.


My own thought is that it is a continuity decision. For good or ill, Lucas has it in his mind that the viewing order is 1 - 6, not 4 - 6, then 1 - 3.

Oh, I agree copmletely that Lucas did it for continuity reasons. That's why he did a lot of the things he did. But again, that's the thing with aesthetic evaluations. Once an artist releases their concept of something it becomes subject to the subjective evaluation of the general public. I, for one, will probably expose my children to the movie in order of 4-6, and then 1-3. I think that 4-6 is the heart of the story, and 1-3 is moderately entertaining backstory.

A few of my friends go even farther and say "The prequil trilogy doesn't exist, ergo the changes to the DVD editions for continuity don't exist." That's kind of the odd thing with a fantasy universe, it all has to do with what you acknowledge, and what carries personal significance for you. And hey, why bother arguing with them, Lucas his his concept, they have theirs.

Newt Reagan
30 September 2004, 08:11 AM
I don't go quite that far, treating the prequels as nonexistent ( I save that for the Highlander sequels, but that's mostly because I felt like the first movie was complete). I also feel that the coolest order to the movies is 4-6, then 1-3. You are right, IMO, that the Original Trilogy is the heart of the story.

I also prefer the original theatrical release, simply because that is what I was introduced to. I was seven when Star Wars came out. I had the toys. I saw the movies. I never thought of them as anything less than perfect, and certainly not incomplete. As an adult, technically, I know there are things that can be done to clean effects up and I know there are places where Lucas had to cut corners or eliminate scenes (Jabba in the hangar). But it was great for its time. I for one don't want anyone to go back to Ray Harryhausen's movies and redo them in CGI (and that is not meant as a comparison, just that his stuff was awesome and perfect for its time as well).

Continuity with the prequels is the last thing I desire, at least in terms of tinkering with the first movies. The sequels should be the ones that have to match up with the Original Trilogy IMO. The Original movies were released, they stand on their own. For anyone to flip out and say, "But Boba Fett is a clone of Jango. Why doesn't he have the same voice?" is ridiculous to me since the movies were not made sequentially and Lucas had no idea that a different actor would voice Jango (if he was even conceived in 1980). I can come up with my own reasoning and it doesn't ruin the movies for me.

I think Lucas, in his attempt to quell a backlash among those who might have continuity issues, overlooked those people who create a backlash over "tinkering with minutiae" and changing the movies that have been a staple of their lives. There may be other reasons that we will not be privy to. I have heard speculations that some of it involves Lucas' ex-wife and spite, but I don't know for certain.

I remember seeing the originals. I remember taking an eleven year old to the SE in the theaters. Seeing his reactions was kind of like going back in time. I had fun with them (even though Han shot first;) ). I enjoy the story of the prequels, even if as an adult, I can't get past the dialogue in places. Star Wars is still part of me, and if I don't want the SE DVDs, I won't buy them. I'll just transfer my original VHS to DVD and not care that it's fullscreen.

Master Dao Rin
1 October 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by dgswensen
I think replacing Shaw with Hayden in ROTJ is a poor decision, not only unecessary, but muddying the storytelling waters significantly and continuing the dragging-down of the whole work Lucas has been engaged in since Episode I. So Anakin Skywalker redeems himself and becomes, in ghost form, the surly teenager he was thirty years previously? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Having never seen Anakin Skywalker in his adult form previously, it was easy to recognize him in the original final scene of ROTJ. The reworked version is going to seem odd at best, and, if you (or your kids) haven't seen the prequel trilogies, won't make an ounce of sense.

Again, not an attack on anyone here and their viewpoints on this, but I think that change was very poorly thought-out.

This thinking missing the point of what Lucas is saying. Not seeing the Spirit for the Force, as it were.

Why? The Dark Side consumes you. It is like the two-headed snake. Anakin becomes the dragon and consumes himself, eating his own body and soul. When the dragon is defeated, Anakin's true self returns.

Anakin's age has nothing to do with this. Anakin when he was young is pure and good - whiny, granted - but still wholesome and a decent human being. He cares about others, wants to save the galaxy, do what is right. But he starts to lose himself in the metaphor of The Chosen One ... and changes the Balance of the Force in the process.

His spirit represents the time when he was in tune with The Force, not devouring it. It is that image the Force remembers. When you watch the films in the proper order, from I-VI, it will make perfect sense.

I know Darth Vader is pretty cool and all, but we have to remember the real hero of this story is Anakin Skywalker ...

dgswensen
2 October 2004, 11:36 AM
And my point is that if that's the point Lucas wanted to make, he should have made it the first time around, twenty-five years ago.

If he wanted to have a young, post-teenaged Anakin appear in order to convey this point, then that's what he should have done in the original cut. But he didn't. And now, decades later, he wants to tinker for the sake of "consistency," which is not and cannot be consistent, because the films were shot decades apart and out of order.

In my opinion any story-based reason for having Hayden Christiansen as Anakin is just rationalization and excuses. It's fine if you disagree, that's just the way I feel about it. And no, I don't think I'm missing the point; I just don't buy it.

Tao
6 October 2004, 07:55 AM
i havent really read this whole thread, but i can kind of tell the flow of it is around the infamous "ghost scene" reshot at the end of the film. first of all, i highly enjoyed the "super-ultra-special" edition dvds, and felt that the changes were insignifigant contrasted against the many improvements in picture quality.

the ghost scene actually now makes more sense to me after watching it. think it through carefully... when did Anakin Skywalker ever look like an elderly gentleman... never. Anakin Skywalker technically died when Darth Vader came to be. One took the place of the other. For all intents and purposes, they are two distinct people. The older Vader means nothing to Luke... thats not who he set out to save. He wanted to save the good man, the faithful Jedi Warrior, Anakin Skywalker, who, like it or not, is Hayden.

Granted, maybe this should have been thought through 25 years ago... but it wasnt, and to leave it as is would have been a fairly big continuity error for anyone who, like myself, is trying to see all six movies as a series, and not simply as two distinct trilogies.

And truth be told, unless youre looking for it and specifically trying to find complaints, you wont even notice. I recently watched it with a female buddy of mine (who actually surprised me with her Star Wars trivia knowledge, even identifying Jabbas court jester by name and species [Salacious Crumb, Kowakian Monkey Lizard]) and both of us got so caught up in snuggling... i mean... watching the movie, that neither of us complained about the ghost (although she didnt like the cut scenes in the Ewok party...). So just watch it, and enjoy. And if you really dont like it, dig your old cassettes out of the closet. Theyre good as well.

Thinithil
6 October 2004, 10:19 AM
It does make more sense with HC. My nieces are pretty young and growing up with the prequels. When they see the end of RotJ now it's really going to wrap up the entire saga for them. Those against it should be pleased enough it wasn't Hayden inside the mask! :) !!!!!!!!!!! That would have been going way too far but Lucas new the limits and the story he wanted to tell.

dgswensen
6 October 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Thinithil
Those against it should be pleased enough it wasn't Hayden inside the mask! :) That would have been going way too far but Lucas new the limits and the story he wanted to tell.

Oh, give it a few more years, he'll put out another edition with Hayden in there. He's just letting him age a bit more before he makes the change. :)

Thinithil
6 October 2004, 09:13 PM
geez i hate it when i miss a spelling mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Master Dao Rin
7 October 2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by dgswensen
And my point is that if that's the point Lucas wanted to make, he should have made it the first time around, twenty-five years ago.

He hadn't cast Anakin then. It's just like the replaced Emperor Palpatine scene in ESB. He hadn't cast Palpatine then.

Regis
20 October 2004, 06:30 PM
While I'd prefer to have the theatrical versions cleaned up and released on DVD, I've got to say that I'm impressed overall.

My favorite change - they fixed Han's jacket right before carbon-freezing him.

It used to be, he's just in his shirt for the full shots but you could see his jacket on his shoulders in the closeups (I know it was still in the SE, because that's when I noticed it).

When I first watched the ESB DVD, I had to rewind it in disbelief.

My wife just rolled her eyes and left the room...

Deck
25 December 2004, 12:23 AM
Thanks for all your comments. This thread is now being unstuck, so it will slowly approach the large archives of this board. ;)

Merry Christmas all!

~ HiAd Chris

Scarecrow
10 January 2005, 01:57 PM
Nobody's mentioned the box art yet.

Okay, I've got my own opinions on the whole Greedo/Han thing, the Hayden ghost and the appallingly bad Jabba scene etc etc but they've allready been aired here.

One thing I did want to bring up and that's the half-hearted crappy box art. What the hell?
What happened to all the gorgeous film poster painted art that's been used on all the VHS releases?
Instead we get a silver emboss of a fairly poor drawing of the main characters on the outside box and some half hearted photoshop montage of old publicity stills on the inside. The whole thing looks like it took a single afternoon from start to finish!!

It's great to have these films on DVD finally - even if they aren't quite the films I remember and love from my childhood - it's just a shame they don't look too pretty sitting on the shelf. =(

Still, The way I have them - wedged between my VHS copy of the original, untouched Episode IV (or just plain 'Star Wars' as it was then known) and Raiders, only the SW logo on the black spine is visible which looks fine.

Just a thought,

Crow

darth venomous
13 January 2005, 08:22 PM
A lot of what I have to say has been said, but I'l add my voice. As far as cleaning up movies from the SE to the DVD editions, I thought it was amazing. Actually, there is an exception, the addition of even more extras that didn't fit in to costuming anf lighting of the original film that was present in all the movies pissed me off. Lucas has a problem of over adding useless extras. When it comes to the making the old movies fit with the new movies, I was pissed off.

The "Vader killed anakin thus Haydn should show up" is really a weak argument since it was as Obi-Wan put it, a certain point of view, the whole idea behind RotJ was that Anakin did not die untill that moment after he killed the Emperor. Only Anakin could have saved his son, not Vander. THat was like a huge blunder on Lucas' part.

The Emperor scene in ESB wasn't bad until the the great inflections and text was alter on the Emperor's side. I mean, who didn't repeat "Yes...yes. He would be a great...asset" before the movie and just feel the overwhelming fear that the emperor exuded onto the galaxy. Ian's was more just creepy. And, "The offspring...", come on. "The Son of Skywalker" has such better alliteration. Though I will say that Having Ian play it was better because atleast it makes a better flow to RotJ.

Naboo shouldn't be in the end sequence. I'm still pissed he took out the "numb nuts" song so there is no reasoning with me on this point.

Actually I can't go on because it's just upsetting me now. Grr. But I will say that I'm glad he got rid of that silly scream of Luke's that he added to SE ESB, makes that moment more defiant with him just falling and being sure of that decision.

Lucas Carr
28 January 2005, 12:05 PM
Just a few comments.

Having Hayden appear as Anakin's Force Spirit is metaphysically correct, from my point of view. I don't know if it's the correct from a Star Wars point of view and fans will probably not come to any consensus on the issue (just one more of those to add to the files).

I agree that the movies should be seen in 4-6 followed by 1-3, not because I think 4-6 was the heart of the story or because 1-3 weren't as good as the first trilogy, but because that's how they were made. Watching them 1-6 removes some of the surprises revealed in 4-6, like who Darth Vader really is and the biological relationship between Luke and Leia.

I may have more comments after I watch them again.

PneumaZ
31 January 2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by darth venomous
The "Vader killed anakin thus Haydn should show up" is really a weak argument since it was as Obi-Wan put it, a certain point of view, the whole idea behind RotJ was that Anakin did not die untill that moment after he killed the Emperor. Only Anakin could have saved his son, not Vander. THat was like a huge blunder on Lucas' part.

Well actually, Lucas didnt make a mistake. At least in my mind. And i will tell you why. Very simply, Anakin, in his early twnties forsook the light side of the force and embraced the dark side. As such when he died, his soul would reflect the last time he felt 'good'. Yoda and Obi Wan died being at peace with the force, so they were perfectly comfortable looking their age. But anaking with the scarring of the dark side in his formidable adult years would not be what he would want to remember in the after life, so choosing himself before hsi corruption makes sense. That and the fact that in the last 3 movies vader sans helmet is seen for all of 2 minutes. and he has 2 movies screen time younger (3 technically, but we dont wanna see the 9 year old again), its an identification with character. obi wan is seen older in all the first films, hence he can be recognized...but thats just a practical point of view. why use a gy who was on screen for 2 minutes when you have a guy on screen for 2 complete films



Naboo shouldn't be in the end sequence. I'm still pissed he took out the "numb nuts" song so there is no reasoning with me on this point.


The numb nuts song didnt fit anymore, it wasnt the right length, no biggie. and Naboo should be there, it represents the heritage of the twins and amidala and the emperor. a very important corner stone of the empire. the birthworld of the opressor...

lol...here endeth the lesson...

Tao
31 January 2005, 11:11 AM
im a fan overall... im not the time to deal in minutae, so i cant go detail for detail. overall, it did its job.

i agree with naboo being the final scene. it was a pivotal location in the overall epic, but it most certainly was NOT worth losing numb nuts over.