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johnpatrickmcp
25 September 2004, 07:55 AM
Well we've spent so much time chewing out George Lucas let us divert our hate to another worthy target, Wizards of the Coast. For those of you who are familiar with DrivethruRPG.com Wizards has just annonced that they are going to start a trial selling period for buying thier books in Ebook format. For a limited time they will offer the new Dungeons and Dragons book "Frostburn" on DrivethruRPG.com for $34.95. If the response is favorable Wizards said they will begin offering all thier new releases in Ebook format. The only problem with this is that $34.95 is the cover price for "Frostburn". Meaning that Wizards is expecting you to shell out the same amount of money for an ebook as a printed copy. Every other company offers you some kind of price break for buying an ebook except for Wizards who will get your money without having to pay any printing expenses.

The reason I posted this is becuase if things go well for Wizards of the Coast I'm sure that we will start to see all of the Star Wars books (If they ever publish anymore) as full price ebooks. I urge any of you thinking of purchasing the ebook to please reconsider. You might as well just go out and buy the hardcover.

Nova Spice
25 September 2004, 08:05 AM
I understand where you're coming from, john. That being said, if WotC started producing e-books, particularly Star Wars e-books, I'd probably buy them. I'd rather have new SW material in e-book format than none at all.

And besides, if I wanted to have more access to it, I'd just print the thing.

To be honest, this may not be a bad idea, and may be far more efficient for WotC to produce new RPG material.

That's a far better alternative than no new SW books.

Dr_Worm
25 September 2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
[BI'd rather have new SW material in e-book format than none at all.

And besides, if I wanted to have more access to it, I'd just print the thing.

To be honest, this may not be a bad idea, and may be far more efficient for WotC to produce new RPG material.

That's a far better alternative than no new SW books. [/B]

I entirely disagree, especially with the current (frostburn) economics in place. There is no way in hell I woul buy new SW material for 34.95 in an e-format. Not in a million years. It ends up giving scada more profit to WotC, which is their perogative, and ends up costing me much more. 34.95 + Printer Paper + Ink = excessive ammounts of money. Printer paper is cheap eanough, though if you want the glossy paper that your other books have you will shell out much more. The cost of printer ink, in my mind a criminal act, is so high that printing these would be cost prohibitive.

The other thing is I wonder about the copywrite wisdom of this. As it stands you can illegally d/l PDFs of many popular game books, but only if some pirater is bored enough to scan all those pages and make them in to PDFs. If they are released in e-format then WotC has just taken the most prohibitive step out of the pirating process.

ij thompson
25 September 2004, 09:44 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never go for this. Part of the reason I got into RPGs in the first place was the appeal of having a shelf full of handsome books to browse through. If e-books came into play, as Dr. Worm suggests, I'd just steal 'em off Limewire or whatever, and only then decide if I wanted to buy them.

And truly, I can't think of many of my d20 books I'd have bought, if I'd had a chance to read them first...

Sithspawn
25 September 2004, 03:16 PM
I'd never go for e-books.
There's something about holding a hard copy in your hands. And I'm not going to pay for a book to have to then buy a printer, paper and ink to print it out.

dgswensen
25 September 2004, 03:54 PM
In e-book format in addition to print format, or e-book format exclusively? There's a big difference. I don't see any company being foolish enough to just blow off the entire print market, which is huger than ever before and has much more exposure than e-books are going to anytime soon.

In some sense, I can see the appeal of an e-book format for gaming. I do a lot of my RPG development on my laptop, and get some use out of some PDFs I've made. A lot of people I know could find e-books very handy for gaming.

As for a couple points made here earlier... Printing it out would be a waste of time and resources; I don't think anyone would expect that to happen. The whole point of an e-book is -not- to have it in dead-tree format. I own both print books and e-books, and I'd never even consider printing my e-books out. I read them off my PDA or my laptop.

Also, most e-books will probably not come in PDF, but a proprietary format. All the ebooks I've ever purchased require the credit card number to "unlock" them on the reader. So, unless someone cracks the DRM or wants to have their credit card number out there for anyone to use, piracy will probably not be any more rampant than it is now.

That said, the price point is nothing short of ludicrous. They need to do some seriously deep discounting if they expect this to take off. "Same price, no physical media" is not something a consumer's going to see any advantage in. Cut the price in half, and we'll talk.

Moridin
25 September 2004, 08:12 PM
First of all, the title of this thread was wholly inappropriate. Remember: no flaming, and no foul language. Such things will not be tolerated on the Holonet. Consider this your first and only warning.

I have elected to leave the thread open, but only because it is a valid topic of discussion. I will be keeping a close eye on the thread and at the first sign of hostility it will be closed.

As for the topic itself: if you want to start a campaign to get Wizards to drop the prices of the e-books, that's fine. However, really they're just opening up one more option. Remember, up to this point there was no legitimate way to get PDF copies of the WotC books. While you may not be paying for the paper and ink, you are paying for the convenience, which cannot be discounted as a part of a PDF's value. Just remember that before you begin liberally insulting Wizards of the Coast employees.

Having said that, yes, the price is ludicrous. I might pay $20 for a PDF of Frostburn, but not $35. In fact, I picked up the book at my FLGS tonight...

johnpatrickmcp
26 September 2004, 10:17 AM
Sorry about the title Moridin, I have brought shame to this board so I will now comit SUPUKU!!!!

Ghengis Ska
27 September 2004, 10:27 AM
I would buy PDF's of books at a resonable price. $35 no, $20 maybe, $15 more likely $10 in a snap.

Frostburn was pretty nice, i saw some stuff i am thinking about porting into SW, one of the main reasons i looked at the book.


As a note...
I can't help but wonder about the recent thread and talk of PDF books on the SWWotC boards....

Nova Spice
27 September 2004, 02:48 PM
I suppose my basis for being open to the e-book format resides on one principle: E-books for the SWRPG is better than no books at all. ;)

Fingon
27 September 2004, 07:43 PM
I agree with Ghengis on this one. I would buy Ebooks, but not for more thatn 15$. I can see the marits of Ebooks, but I would, however, prefer hardback copies.

REG
28 September 2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by johnpatrickmcp

Sorry about the title Moridin, I have brought shame to this board so I will now comit SUPUKU!!!!
It's seppuku.

And if you want, I'll be your kaishaku. That's the guy who will cut your head off.

:D

As for the real topic of this thread, I honestly don't know if WotC made the right business decision, since the standards of e-book publishing is to eliminate the unnecesary expense of printing them and distributing the batches of products to your FLGS. The end result is a much lower price for the consumer, until they print it.

Then again, it will reach areas that do not have a FLGS but do have internet access.

dgswensen
29 September 2004, 02:17 PM
Moridin hinted at this, but can anyone verify whether they're merely adding e-books to the available purchase options, or actually considering replacing print media with electronic?

Because one seems like good business sense, the other seems like economic suicide to me.

REG
29 September 2004, 04:14 PM
I don't think our entire society is ready for paperless media.

And personally, I don't have a plastic. 95% of all internet businesses have opted out of paper money order/check payment (via snail mail) for the quick convenience of credit card payment.

Reverend Strone
29 September 2004, 05:29 PM
I would hope that an electronic copy of a book would cost significantly less than a printed and bound one. It would be disappointing if that weren't the case, considering the ludicrous expense of printing ink and paper these days, and you have to wonder who is pocketing all that extra dosh.

Given the choice, I would rather pay more and buy a hard cover book.

If they were to charge the same for an e-book but there was not the option of buying the hardcover book, I have to wonder whether I would buy it or express my disatisfaction by boycotting it. I guess that would depend upon how badly I felt I needed the content and whether I was prepared to strike my own nose to spite my face. In the end, I'm only one customer, so I can't help but feel a little powerless to affect such a decision.

Newt Reagan
30 September 2004, 08:35 AM
I like the PDF format. As far as printing, you have the option of printing out sections which is great for players, since they don't have to go out and buy the book. But to print a full book and then do the binding and such, it becomes a definite cost and a minor inconvenience. I like professionally printed books too. They're purty.

That is why most PDFs are cheaper than hard copy, professionally printed books. If this is indeed WotC's price for a PDF, I think they will find a lot of business will drop off and piracy will run rampant.

I have seen discussions on other boards regarding PDFs, and as some people have said, the market for all PDF format RPGs is still low. People like the feel and look of a professionally printed book, especially compared to a $35 8o e-book. As time marches on killing trees may fall out of fashion, but WotC will probably work in both formats for a while, if they know what's good for them (and I suspect they do).

Dr_Worm
30 September 2004, 09:26 AM
As some of you may have already seen, Mr. Ryan of WoTC has responded to the common complaints that are being brought about this issue. Here is his response:


Since we offered Frostburn as a DRM eBook online, weíve had a number of questions (here and in other fora) from gamers about the decision. In particular, many people have concerns about the DRM format, and about the fact that the eBook format has the same MSRP as the physical book. There have been a million other comments and questions--good and bad--but since those two issues seem to be the biggest, theyíre what Iím going to tackle here.

The MSRP: The problem most people have with the price seems to be that eBooks are not "worth as much" as physical books. If thatís true for you, by all means continue to purchase physical books at your local game store (or wherever you shop for D&D). Weíre not trying to convert you into an eBook user if you donít want to be; I myself will likely stick with physical books around the gaming table for the time being.

Some people, however, feel that the eBook format offers a lot of advantages over physical books. Itís easier to carry 20 books in a laptop than to lug a 30-pound bookbag around, for example. eBooks are bookmarked and easily searchable. And you can cut and paste text out of the eBook (in limited amounts) if, for example, you want to paste a monsterís stat block into the adventure youíre preparing, or want to add the text of a feat description to your character sheet.

eBooks cost less to manufacture than physical books, thatís true. But the bulk of the value of a D&D product--and the bulk of our cost in making it--isnít the paper, ink, and glue of the physical product. Itís the great content--the art, the ideas, the writing, the game mechanics, and so on. Thatís what youíre really paying for when you buy a D&D product, and thatís what generates the real cost for us.

Finally, we value everyone who has helped make D&D a success over the years, and that "everyone" includes not just gamers but the game store owners who have supported D&D and helped it grow for three decades. We could always make a few more bucks by cutting out the middleman and selling directly to you--thatís true of physical books as well as eBooks. But we arenít going to undercut the businesses that have helped us get where we are today--the businesses that probably helped you first get into gaming, and maybe continue to be a place where you find games, meet other gamers, and keep up with whatís going on in D&D. These game, hobby, and book stores are our bread and butter, and weíre not going to operate a cut-rate side business at their expense. If that means that we sell a few less copies of the eBook, so be it.

Please donít think of an eBook as an el cheapo alternative to other formats. If the only reason you want to buy a PDF is to save a few bucks, this offering isnít for you. There are plenty of places where you can buy D&D products at below MSRP; feel free to take your money there. If, on the other hand, you see more utility in a PDF than in a paper product, I think youíll find that Frostburn is just as valuable in eBook form as it is as a physical book--and worth every penny.

The DRM Format: Sorry to be a little long-winded on the MSRP issue, but itís a complex issue and thereís a lot to say. This one should be easier (and shorter).

Thereís a lot of false information on the net about secure eBooks. Some people will tell you that you canít use your DRM product unless youíre connected to the internet, or that you canít print it, or that you canít use it on more than one computer, or that you canít make back ups of it, or that Adobe Reader is spyware, and on and on. Frankly, thatís a bunch of baloney, propogated mostly be people whoíve never actually tried a DRM eBook.

Hereís the scoop: If you have a copy of Adobe Reader (and who doesnít?), you simply register it with Adobe. (Go to Tools-->eBook Web Services-->Adobe DRM Activator in Adobe Reader.) It takes three minutes, tops. Once you do that, you can use any DRM eBook you purchase just as if it were a regular PDF. You can read the eBook on other computers you own, as long as you register Adobe Reader on that machine too. Other people canít read the eBooks you purchased, and you canít read theirs, but other than that thereís no difference between a DRM eBook and any other PDF. If you donít believe me, I invite to you go to DriveThruRPG.com, download one of their free products, and give it a spin. Doesnít cost you a dime.


The above was originally posted HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=312136&page=1&pp=30)

Faraer
30 September 2004, 10:16 AM
Hate is a serious matter, not something to be joked about, as you should know from the Star Wars films. George Lucas is not a deserving or productive target of it, and if Wizards of the Coast is, it's not for overpricing an ebook -- there's been no suggestion of ebooks replacing printed books.

Our legitimate gripe with WotC is not letting us know clearly their thinking about the SWRPG and its future.

REG
30 September 2004, 02:13 PM
With all due respect, unless we are shareholders or employees of WotC or Lucasfilm, we are not privy to the details of every single development that they do not wish to make public, whether they are in the alpha or beta stage.

Just because they are the exclusive RPG publisher of Star Wars does not mean they should disclose any trade secrets to the public and rival competitors, who can simply take the ideas (which cannot be copyrighted) and turn it into a d20 product way before their official Star Wars product is released.

It's standard business practice.

coldskier0320
30 September 2004, 03:45 PM
I have thought that an eBook would be very useful for a long time. But at $35 a pop, its simply not feasible. I'd consider buying a few at $15, but thats about the extent of it. What I think they should do, is offer the eBooks as an upgrade to their existing and future products, example: when you buy, for example, the RCRB, there is a code in the book that is activated when the book is scanned for purchase. Then you go home and enter the code on the WotC site and poof! you DL the eBook version of your RCRB. Of course, the book would take a slight price hike, but i think it would be more popular in the long run. That or else, at the time of purchase, the customer can be given the option to get the eBooks upgrade at an additional cost. As far as eBooks on their own, i still stick by my $15 pricetag.B)

Bloodcat
30 September 2004, 10:34 PM
Its not only the price, but the whole DRM setup DrivethruRPG uses. Digital Rights Management is very unwieldly and it doesn't guarantee that the product you bought will be useable in the future.

Regular PDFs you can DL, and either print out or burn to a CD for long term use. Most print shops reportedly can't do DRMed PDFs very well, in some cases being a royal pain to outright impossibilties.

johnpatrickmcp
1 October 2004, 10:39 AM
Okay after watching this thread for a few days there are some things I would like to clarify.

1. I have no problem with the E-book format or the DRM code. I think this a great way to publish books as it allows the publisher to create a pdf copy of a book but still retain security over it. This prevents the file from being placed on a Peer to Peer download service for everyone to have for free. I own over thirty E-books and will probably not stop buying them any time soon.

2. I have no problem with Drivethrurpg.com. They are a great company that has provided RPG publishers a secure means to distribute thier products in an electronic format. Many of the publishers on Drivethrurpg.com previously used RPGnow.com but left becuase RPGnow.com did not use the secure e-book format. Also Drivethurrpg.com offers a free e-book download every week. Of the thirty e-books I own I only paid for about half of them. I found myself purchasing e-books of books that I kinda wanted but was not willing to shell out cover price for. Most of the publishers on Drivethrurpg.com offer thier e-books for at least half price and some at even greater discounts.

3. My sole complaint is against Wizards of the Coast. Not for offering thier books as e-books but for expecting us to pay the same for an e-book as we would for a hard copy. They say that the cost of the e-book reflects the cost of the writers and artists that create the books. Since the e-book contains the same matierial then it is fair that they should charge the same price for both formats. The problem is that if they can still afford to pay the writers and artists with the profits from the sale of a printed book than where is the money they saved on printing costs going?

For arguments sake say that it costs $10 dollars to print the book. Books are sold at discount prices to retailers so that the retailer can make some money so a $35 book will be sold to your local games store at maybe $20 or $25, for arguments sake we'll split the differance and say $22.50. Now subtract the $10 dollars it cost to print the book and you are left with $12.50 profit. Now a piece of that money goes to pay the writers and the artists and the rest goes to Wizards of the Coast. Now let us look at the sale of an E-book.

First off there is no printing cost so Wizards automatically saves the dollars. Second Since this is an E-book service wizards does not have to sell the book at wholesale price, but they still probably have to pay a fee to Drivethrurpg.com. For arguments sake we'll say that they get $5. So we subtract the only expense for the ebook ($5) and we are left with $30 dollars of profit. Now do the writers and artist get paid more when an ebook is sold or do they recive the same standard commission? Unless there is someone here who can say for sure otherwise I'd bet my autographed copy of "I jedi" that they don't recive anything extra off of the sale of an e-book. Which means that Wizards of the Coast pockets the extra money and congradulates each other on what econimical geniuses they are. They say that they are charging the same price because of production costs but it just means more money for them.

REG
1 October 2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by johnpatrickmcp

3. My sole complaint is against Wizards of the Coast. Not for offering thier books as e-books but for expecting us to pay the same for an e-book as we would for a hard copy. They say that the cost of the e-book reflects the cost of the writers and artists that create the books. Since the e-book contains the same matierial then it is fair that they should charge the same price for both formats. The problem is that if they can still afford to pay the writers and artists with the profits from the sale of a printed book than where is the money they saved on printing costs going?
To their next book/game project? How else are they going to receive their business operation budget?

Unless of course, the e-Book have additional Acrobat features like TOC (you can jump to the appropriate chapter), keyword search, etc., that you don't find in printed version.

You can gripe all you want, but in the end you have two options. If you can buy the book or order a book nearby, go with that. If you're in an area where you can't buy the book and you don't want to wait too long for the book to arrive via snail mail, go with e-Book. Vote with your wallet.

As a person who don't have a plastic, I don't see paper going away anytime soon. I'd probably be dead before our society goes entirely paperless.

Faraer
2 October 2004, 07:00 AM
REG, I don't expect Wizards to disclose detailed business plans, but being conspicuously silent on whether there'll be future SWRPG products or not (after releasing some such information to industry sources) is, while standard business practice, poor treatment of its customers. And counterproductive, I'd say.

Dr_Worm
2 October 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Faraer
REG, I don't expect Wizards to disclose detailed business plans, but being conspicuously silent on whether there'll be future SWRPG products or not (after releasing some such information to industry sources) is, while standard business practice, poor treatment of its customers. And counterproductive, I'd say.

Not if they have not made a final decision, business is fluid. If they released a statment to this extent you know perfectly well that most people wold interpret this as a statment damning the future of the RPG. So why make such a statment?

REG
2 October 2004, 03:11 PM
FWIW, Wizards of the Coast is not like Decipher, whose two sole RPG lines remains fate unknown.

Unlike Decipher, WotC still have my vote of confidence regarding RPGs.

I'm gonna tell you what I told Greymarch: don't wait for WotC or waste time whining about it. Start contributing to the gaming community here or on Wizards' board, even if to offer opinions to someone else's material posted on the Holonet.

Faraer
3 October 2004, 06:58 AM
I prefer companies to be frank with their customers, that's all. I don't see it as whining to say that (it's not like I've laboured the point on multiple threads), and I've been contributing to the gaming community for years.

REG
3 October 2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Faraer

I prefer companies to be frank with their customers, that's all. I don't see it as whining to say that (it's not like I've laboured the point on multiple threads), and I've been contributing to the gaming community for years.
Be frank with what? You want to know WHY the price of the Frostburn e-book is the same as their printed version? Well, let's not stop there. Let's ask them why they are charging us $40 for the Star Wars Core Rulebook.

Do what I do. I see the price. I don't like the price. I move on. No whining. When WotC realize no revenue coming in as they have hoped, they'll rethink their decision. For now, they want to sell their printed version first and foremost. They just happened to add the e-book as an alternative IF you can't get the printed version in your area. "IF" as in "last resort."

Faraer
4 October 2004, 04:56 AM
With whether they're cancelling the SWRPG line, putting it on hold while they decide, or what. As I said above, I don't see the fuss about what price they charge for the Frostburn PDF.

REG
4 October 2004, 01:36 PM
Well, you can always pose that question to WotC's Customer Service if you need a party-line answer.

There is still one more Star Wars film to be made and shown, so more than likely all SW licensees are gearing up to hype their products around Summer of 2005.

mojo1701
4 October 2004, 05:20 PM
I can't stand reading in front of a screen like I would a book. Posts is one thing, but plain text for pages and pages can also hurt your eyes on a screen pretty bad.

Arkadin
5 October 2004, 11:43 AM
but with no RPG books coming out for the foreseeable future,
No novels until like next summer,
the updates on the WoTC website, infrequent at best
An upcoming movie that I must admit, I'm really not holding out much hope for as being good,
And minatures, which while cool, seems like they're jumping on the Heroclix bandwagon,
I recently decided to shift my Star Wars campaign to Mage: the Ascension...*LOL* without telling my PCs in advance...
Not an easy feat, mind you...especially when you tell your PCs that the past two years, during which they went from first level to 8th, was a complete hallucination...and that half the adventure was their own minds trying to make them "contextually appropriate" to a Marauder's "quiet".) My apologies to those who may not have a clue as to what the Heck Ark's talking about, but I think it's my best idea ever really. And if you want to give yourself a headache...*LOL* try converting D20 to the D10 Storyteller's system.

As far as I'm concerned, WoTC could have come out with a NJO sourcebook to cover the last books of the series or something...I'm not hating on anyone, but to empty your production schedule to wait for Lucas' movie, which of course, won't be taking anything into account other than Lucas' movies...well, I'm done for now. And I'll allow myself to be tarred and feathered before I shell out more money on miniatures just to fill out a survey card to let them know how much I love their roleplaying game. By my own admittedly rough and hasty estimation, WoTC already has well over $500 of my money on Star Wars alone. (*LOL* never mind what I've spent on D&D..*LOL*)

I've told my PCs I'm keeping their SW character sheets and am planning to run both campaigns in parallel, with events in one mirroring the other in twisted ways...and both campaigns running as alternate reality versions of the other...all in an attempt to drive my friends insane...and..*LOL*...I think it's already working. You should have seen my friend's face when she realized her "husband" was really the spirit of a guy she once wanted to date back on earth...tee-hee...it's so easy to make some people cry...

"There are no accidents...only coincidences."

Like I said, I'm not soured completely on SW but right now, I guess I'm just tired of nothing going on really...no way to run a franchise, IMHO...
*LOL* but then again, what do I know?

Bloodcat
5 October 2004, 01:24 PM
If you pulled that kinda stunt on most of the groups I have been a part of, you would have found yourself GMing at an empty table.

Arkadin
5 October 2004, 04:42 PM
Oh of course, I would have...luckily they're all good friends who care more about story and character development than running around "killin' thangs" and getting XP. And believe me, I wasn't sure they'd go for it, but this is why I don't GM for people I don't know really well outside the game. It's too easy to have some knucklehead PCs destroy your game. Have seen it happen before, too many times to other people I know.
But at any rate...back to the issue at hand...

REG
5 October 2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Bloodcat

If you pulled that kinda stunt on most of the groups I have been a part of, you would have found yourself GMing at an empty table.
Same here. I mean in order to pull that off in my gaming group, I have to be the only qualified and competent GM in the group they must depend on ... OR that I have decided never to GM again and that is my way of hinting it to them.

If you want, let someone else take over. That's what I do with my group. We rotate so that the GM get to be player for awhile.

Arkadin
5 October 2004, 06:35 PM
never heard of such a thing...as for my PCs...two out of three are GMs themselves...and we do switch off. What I did was something new...and hopefully, something interesting. So far, they've followed me on my little lunatic trip.
And actually my little experiment was designed to last only until one of my PCs is ready to start his D20 Modern campaign. *LOL* and truthfully, I was hoping they wouldn't string me up for it...but it was a nice idea...and one I've thoroughly enjoyed running. Kinda like the infamous "fake" PC I experienced in AD&D 2nd edition years ago. *LOL* to imagine that the guy sitting next to me had a fake character sheet, that he was not a low level fighter, but a mid level rogue...*LOL* man, that was classic. And keep in mind...I'm not stupid...
I'm keeping both campaigns one in which the whole Mage thing occured...and one in which it never happened...
I think we should all try something new and daring every now and then.
Like I said, I'm glad my friends like good story...which dice they're rolling is irrelevent.
but anyway...and what a can of worms I popped open... what's the latest scheme to get WoTC to publish a book at some point before the next ice age? *LOL*

Faraer
6 October 2004, 08:11 AM
No novels until like next summer,Huh?

Sep: MedStar II: Jedi Healer
Oct: Republic Commando: Hard Contact, Jedi Trial, JQ10 The Final Showdown
Dec: Dark Rendezvous
Jan: Labyrinth of Evil
Mar: Secrets of the Jedi
Apr: Episode III novelization

Arkadin
6 October 2004, 08:28 AM
Sorry...I made a verbal misstep. Wasn't counting the Old Republic era books. Am figuring episode 3 will end up going against most things in the books, and as I'm not sure if Lucas himself ever reads the books he allows others to write using his universe, I decided a long time ago to pretty much discount Old Republic era books. I know it'll annoy me to know end to read these books, then go to the movies and find out they've either been ignored or discounted by the guy I did read Shatterpoint, but that was research for my own game...though between that book and the Clone Wars series, I'm starting to think old Mace really is in possession of somewhere around 2000 vitality points. *LOL*

Faraer
6 October 2004, 08:49 AM
The Rise of the Empire EU (not Old Republic era -- that's Tales of the Jedi etc.) is much more consistent with the tone and continuity of the movies than the rest of the EU. Everything coming out from now will have been written with full access to the Episode III screenplay and production.

George doesn't read the novels himself, though he sometimes reads the comics.

Thinithil
6 October 2004, 10:35 AM
Isn't there an acronym thread around here somewhere? What the :mad: is *LOL*?

I guess what amazes me the most is the negativity artound a bunch of the stuff around here. The role playing game, the prequels, the OT Dvds... I don't think we had any AD&D materials except the big three--PH, DMG, and MM. Everything else was out of our own heads. Using a module was a cop out. I'm thankfull GL is making movies at all. Yes, I'm getting much enjoyment out of them but the only way they could be better was if I made them. Unless several hundred million dollars appears in my checking account tomorrow or George calls me for advice that seems unlikely. As far as the OT, well, the larger sins of the SE's have been fixed and I watched them two or three times already.

This sounds a little preachy but let's be happy we even have something as important as this to discuss and be less displeased that everything doesn't always work the the way we want it to.

geeezzzz, did I just write that?

Dr_Worm
6 October 2004, 11:59 AM
This sounds a little preachy but let's be happy we even have something as important as this to discuss and be less displeased that everything doesn't always work the the way we want it to.

It sounds preachy, but there is a good point buried in there, which is: There is PLENTY of RPG material in existance to keep the game alive for decades. Is your money burning that big a hole in your pocket? I personally am quite content with the books I have and could care less how much WotC supports it. In fact if there are books for SWD20 that I have not purchsed, and if new books came out I would probably not rush out to buy them. I am juat too poor. I already have more books for D20 than I ever owned for D6 (at least at the time, I have more D6 now).

Be thankful for the internet, because back in 87 when I started playing SW there was no internet and no publications for D6, and somehow we managed to have fun playing the game. Heck...we only had one official era too. I think that if D20 players abandon the game becuse not enough is being printed for it then they are not true fans.

Edit: LOL=Laugh out Loud, or Lizards Over Linguine...depends on the forum.

Thinithil
6 October 2004, 09:18 PM
So Arkadin likes Italian?

Darth Fierce
7 October 2004, 03:25 AM
LOL = Laugh out loud :P :D

I remember the days when I didn't know what it meant as well. I used to think it meant "Lots of luck..."

Edit: Eh...the good doc beat me to the definition.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Tao
8 October 2004, 06:05 AM
Im actually stoked that Wizards is taking a little break in production... its making me have to come up with my own stuff (which, by the way can be enjoyable)... and with all this extra money lying around I can start thinking about things which have long been secondary or even tertiary... like girls... and college... Anywho... if youre too worried about it, just remember, theres no reason to wait for a manual to use something in your game. Even if they completely stop producing books, I plan on doing my own thing for a long time to come. But dont worry... I plan on putting everything up on my new site eventually, so you'll get to see it someday.

Ghengis Ska
8 October 2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Dr_Worm
I think that if D20 players abandon the game becuse not enough is being printed for it then they are not true fans.

Along those lines, me and another guy in the fan spirit made this..

http://members.cox.net/ghenghis_ska/KnightsoftheOldRepublic.pdf

hisham
8 October 2004, 10:03 AM
OMG! Ska! That is sweeeet! Not just in terms of quality, but over 100 pages?? Great work, dude!

Tao
11 October 2004, 03:27 PM
wow. absolutely stunning. i was just talking about starting up a KotR era campaign, and this is going to be a life saver. hats off to you ska. and to the mysterious second party that assisted. :hansolo:

Darien_Shadowfyre
6 November 2004, 09:57 AM
*jaw drops*

You are as unto a god.

Master Dao Rin
8 November 2004, 09:30 PM
Nice work, Genghis.

One question of the top of my head: why did you modify the Sith Code from the game? Or is there a difference between the Xbox and PC versions?

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
15 November 2004, 09:46 AM
make that the sound of 2 jaws dropping and hitting the floor!

Nice work on the Kotor e-book! ;) the handdrawn artwork looks nice too.

Was this done from the material in the kotor project thread in the d20 section of the holonets?

I think thats the best thing about e-books these days - that fans now have the power to create their own books.

Ghengis Ska
15 November 2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
Nice work, Genghis.

One question of the top of my head: why did you modify the Sith Code from the game? Or is there a difference between the Xbox and PC versions?

Uhm i think there was a reason, but i can't remember...

Since i bassed it out of the Source book for the Xbox, it may be just faulty translation, the sourcebook to be out by the game wasn't 100%, or changed a bit so i would not be plagerazin... honestly can't remember...

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
when we started this Solarc and I came togethter largely from just a thread on the WotC boards, we looked over some of the stuff from here and the webpage (i think it was that the same group of people who were working on it here put up a page), and at the time there wasn't much there so instead of copying or working with people, becuase at that time we had not planed on anything this big , we went it alone, we hadn't planed on doing as much as we did, it started off as just some of the equipment, so we looked, didn't see much and decided it was just easier to work by oursleves, adding people makes the time factor go up so much in some respects becuse evey one has busy lives so i think we both kind of decided to just do our little thing alone,
So no not really, i pretty much stread clear of other peoples work on the stuff, becuase i didn't want to copy them and claim it as my own, while i did pull some stuff from like WotC ( they did the PrC of the Skelkath, the droid) etc i tried to reference and show where i got it from.

I think some one from there contacted me last month about maybe joining some stuff or something but honeslty have not had a chance to ge tback to them... maybe i should dig up that e-mail and respond... mental note look through old e-mails tonight. The projectbeing over i just wanted to let it settle for a bit and not have to think about it, it took along time to do.

Rostek
15 November 2004, 02:19 PM
My bad, just re-read your post Ghengis, answered my question :rolleyes:

DentArthurDent
15 November 2004, 05:20 PM
Fantastic, Ska. Simply Fantastic. Even though it's been a while, thanks for the dedication it took to put something like that together. :D I and my players appreciate it.


Edit: Just went over some of it, and I noticed something. In the Mandalorian Warrior PrC, it reads this:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency:
The Mandalorians are known for their use of
uncommon weapons. These weapons are usually
integrated into their armor. At 1 st level the
Mandalorian Warrior gains

And then it stops. What should go there?