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Dr_Worm
24 November 2004, 10:45 PM
Do we know why Z-95s will not appear in Ep3? I like the new fighter and all, but lucas seems to be ignoring the fact that the Z-95 was the predacessor to the X-wing, and as I understand it was quite popular for some time.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
25 November 2004, 01:04 AM
Yeah, but its simply no canon-info. As far as I know the Z-95 is based on early sketches of the X-Wing anyway. Besides I actually do not know why so many people like that vessel - I think its quite ugly ( but then again so is the Falcon ;) )

Night who says ni
25 November 2004, 05:24 AM
I actually do not know why so many people like that vessel - I think its quite ugly
I't basically the same thing as the x-wing but without the x part

Rostek
25 November 2004, 08:43 PM
Well, technically it is canon (see Tramp's sig), although not movie canon. I think Lucas left it out since it isn't part of His vision, and new (IMO ugly looking) fighter is.
I can't really explain why, other than Lucas doesn't feel compelled to put anything in that he doesn't want even if it is previously establisted EU canon.

Master Dao Rin
26 November 2004, 03:47 PM
George couldn't even if he really wanted to.

The Z-95 was not created by him, so he couldn't use it in the movies and still claim it's 100% his work. If he did he'd be opening himself up to all kinds of lawsuits.

This is why non-movie stuff is not Star Wars Bible Canon.

Dr_Worm
26 November 2004, 06:27 PM
I guess I always thought that the Z-95 was created as hidden background when deveolping the story. I thought it was a lucas creation becuase it looks so much like a X-Wing predacessor. Oh well, guess that answers that.

kaeroth
27 November 2004, 02:22 PM
Was it....Ralph...McQuarrie? is that the name of the guy who did so much of the early concept art for ANH? and did he do more atmosphere/setting images, or did he also do some of the concept art for the tech and stuff. like, i'm thinking of images of early stormtroopers, back when they had lightsabers, and i've seen some pics of TIE fighters that were a whole lot blockier. I've got a T-shirt of an early idea for the movie poster of ANH and all the stuff (characters, Vader, deathstar, fighters) look recognizable but *different*. so. is that the guy? was he the one who started with what is now thought of as the Z-95 and eventually drew the X-wing?

DEFIANT
27 November 2004, 03:52 PM
It was McQuarrie Kaeroth...he drew a stormtrooper with (what looked like) a lightsabre and an accompanying light-shield (Cool).
As you say..the images he drew were conceptual but very def SW.
I dont know if he drew the Z-95 though...would be intresting if anyone knew....anyways Headhunter is a bit ugly and we all know it!
:)

Rostek
27 November 2004, 04:02 PM
IIRC, all material that legally uses the name "Star Wars" is at least partly the property of Lucasfilm, the license is differant than normal franchises in that regard, I believe.
I remember reading in some author inview (I think it was Stackpole), and how he was using one of Zahn's characters. He'd called Zahn and asked for his permssion, even though he (paraphrase) "Didn't have to, because Lucasfilm owns the EU".
I believe the Z-95 is a X-Wing prototype drawing done possibly by McQuarrie, possibly by one of Lucas' other artists. Either way, I am almost certain Lucas owns both the name and concept drawing of the Headhunter (I believe Daley was the first to introduce the concept).
It's not as if it would legally qualify as copyright infringment or plagerism, it's just nice to ask.
Indeed, all Lucas would technically have to avoid any legal wranglings would be to not name a model (since technically he owns the design) that is the Headhunter.

Nova Spice
27 November 2004, 04:39 PM
Yea, I'm disappointed that the Z-95 Headhunter hasn't been included in any of the prequels, but with that in mind, it looks like there is another EU vehicle that will see screentime in Episode III.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/artofrev/2004/10/artofrev20041011.html

Looks like the Imperial Juggernaut will be yet another example of George utilizing EU concepts for the films. I'm banking on these vessels being used either on Utapau or Kashyyyk. ;)

Talon Razor 'GM'
27 November 2004, 05:22 PM
Hey Nova, these vehicles are indeed being used at Kashyyk. If you look closely in the trailer, past all the Wookiees, you can see several large wheeled vehicles coming up behind the Wookiee army. Those are indeed Juggernaughts.

Lord Kjeran
28 November 2004, 05:14 AM
Chello!

Could be wrong, but wasn't the Z-95 first mentioned in Han Solo at Sta's End (1978/9)? Don't when it was first illo-ed.

Tony

Dr_Worm
28 November 2004, 12:26 PM
Z-95 ugly? Not in my eyes. I always kinda liked it. Easilly one of my top 5 fighters.

Master Dao Rin
29 November 2004, 07:08 PM
Notice that the Art of Revenge pic calls it a "Turbo Tank", not a "Juggernaut".

George could use the design, but not the name of Z-95, since he owns the rights to the picture. But he never named the picture "Z-95". That was done by WEG in one of their early sourcebooks.

He owns the descriptor "Z-95" too, as its property associated with the picture, but George never came up with either idea. That's why the two will not used together in a movie he makes.

Tao
30 November 2004, 03:34 AM
actually, i dont see the new fighter as a break from established cannon, simply an addition to it. the z-95, in my mind, was always a second rate ship used by pirates and local fleets. its basic in design and function, and, more importantly, it is cheap. it is the predecesor to the x-wing, in design and style, without a doubt.

this new ship, the ARC 170, is a cutting edge fighter/bomber produced for a republic with seemingly endless resources, that introduces the (potentially new) s-foil technology.

that said, it stands to reason that incom, potentially struggling to stay out of the red, commits a little corporate espionage and retrieves the plans for the s-foils, successfully melding this new technology into their struggling fighter line.

ps... that story is now officially my intellectual property... i better not see any fan fic about that one. i call dibs.

hisham
30 November 2004, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Lord Kjeran
Could be wrong, but wasn't the Z-95 first mentioned in Han Solo at Sta's End (1978/9)? Don't when it was first illo-ed.

It was the Han Solo at Star's End comic adaptation for the funny papers, drawn by Alfredo Alcala (sp). It looked very.... uhm... quaint, in retrospect. Looked nothing like the Ralph McQuarrie artwork.


Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
Notice that the Art of Revenge pic calls it a "Turbo Tank", not a "Juggernaut".

The text says:


Originally posted by Art of Revenge
The Episode III Art Department turned to many unused and abandoned concepts from the original trilogy, including these wheeled tanks first sketched by Joe Johnston. In this Erik Tiemens painting, the so-called "turbo tank" (also known as a Juggernaut) forms the armored backbone of a clone trooper force.

So, I guess they're known as both for this movie.

CaamasiJedi49
30 November 2004, 10:15 AM
Also, keeping in mind EU, the Z-95 had been around for over a hundred years by the time of Episode III. SO by the time of the Clone Wars its old technology. Later.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

Night who says ni
30 November 2004, 02:38 PM
Also, keeping in mind EU, the Z-95 had been around for over a hundred years by the time of Episode III. SO by the time of the Clone Wars its old technology. Later

Then why do they use it in the video game jedi knight acadmy or in star wars galaxies :JTL it must be barely held together

Rostek
30 November 2004, 02:46 PM
Then why do they use it in the video game jedi knight acadmy or in star wars galaxies :JTL it must be barely held together
Because tech in the SWU is much slower advancing than in this world. The Z-95, in many models, had been in production for a hundred years or so. The actual vessels used in those series' were probably 20 years old or so.
As for the "old tech" claim, one can hardly compare technological advancement in SW to Earth. 100 years is nothing in a mostly peaceful era- the Hyperdrive had been around (mostly unchanged) for 25,000 years- tech has stagnated because the status quo is pretty darn good.
All you need to do is build more (upgraded) ones in the older ones start to wear out.

CaamasiJedi49
15 December 2004, 01:24 PM
Good point. Let me elaborate a little. It is indeed relatively new for the GFFA, but is also not built for "modern"(by ROTS's standards) warfare. To give an example, it would be like the US using a P-38(a fighter from WWII) instead of the F-16 in Afganistan. The demands of the airforce for the fighters capabilities have changed greatly since the creation of the P-38. It would be more likely,though, I'm not sure the US airforce specifically does this with the P-38, to see cadets training in P-38's before getting into the cockpit of a F-16. While a good fighter, the Z-95, for the times they just couldn't match up to some of the fighters being made by KSE and Siennar. But the fighter is good for training cadets on how to fly fighters since the Z-95's controls were basic in its design. And to add on to Rostek's answer Night, Z-95's are dirt cheap, so the New Republic(which is paying for a lot of the Jedi Academy's equipment, etc) will definitely buy something that is more or less just as effective as the XJ X-wing but a fraction of the cost. Later.

Caamasi Jedi49:plokoon:

P.S. Sorry for taking so long to respond. I seemed to have forgotten about this. :D

Vanger Chevane
15 December 2004, 01:40 PM
In fact, in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron Tycho Celchu flies a Z95XT Trainer during a few exercises at Folor Training Base.

This helps solidify the Headhunter's role in the New Republic Starfighter Command (and possibly the GFFA's as well) as a Fighter Trainer.

Rostek
15 December 2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by CaamasiJedi49
The demands of the airforce for the fighters capabilities have changed greatly since the creation of the P-38. It would be more likely,though, I'm not sure the US airforce specifically does this with the P-38, to see cadets training in P-38's before getting into the cockpit of a F-16. While a good fighter, the Z-95, for the times they just couldn't match up to some of the fighters being made by KSE and Siennar. But the fighter is good for training cadets on how to fly fighters since the Z-95's controls were basic in its design.
That is hardly a relevant comparision- semi-canon sources tell us that the Z-95 (along w/ the Cloakshape) is the standard OR fighter up until the introduction of the TIE. Performace wise, the Headhunter is comperable as a "poor-man's X-Wing". Of course, the OR doesn't technically have a military, and the primary martial forces of that government are of a local defense force type, which would no doubt prefer the solid construction of the Z-95 to the "lightweight" newer designs.
If one were to make a comparison, it would be closer to the USAF using, say, an F-4 or F-5 in a modern conflict as opposed to the far more expensive F-15. Many countries still use these older tech fighters, and if the airframe were of similar age, the dropoff in performace would likely be within reasonable peremeters. They are made for the same purpose, based on the same paradigm of conflict, but the new vessels are superior because of the level of tech. However, tech costs money, which a military-light Republic would generally be unwilling to pay.
And finally, again, through semi-canonical sources, we see that the Z-95 design continued to be upgraded and refined as a matter of procedure- the X-Wing is considered by the design staff as the Z-95 Mk 5 (or something similar), implying that the Mark 4 was recently in service and this is merely an upgraded model.
BTW, the Rebel Sourcebook for d6 tells us that the Z-95 is used as a trainer by the Rebels during the Rebellion Era, and further sources tell us that the Y-Wing replaces it in that role.
SW high technology is far more stagnent than in our time- giving the Jedi Acadamy Z-95s is kinda the equivilent of the US giving Taiwan M-48 tanks. They aren't state of the art, but they are still quite effective given the probable opposition, and more importantly they are cheap for us to give away and for them to run.

Darth Fury
15 December 2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
The Z-95 was not created by him, so he couldn't use it in the movies and still claim it's 100% his work.

It doesn't matter if he created it or not he licensed it and trademarked it, therefore he can do as he pleases with it. GL's problem is he wants the look and tech of ep 1 2 3 to be more stylized, modern and flashy, and also to appeal to kids growing up now rather than making the films have the look and feel of ep 4 5 6 and appealing to the fans whose adoration built him his empire.............:( :rolleyes: :raised:

Darth Fury
15 December 2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Night who says ni


Then why do they use it in the video game jedi knight acadmy or in star wars galaxies :JTL it must be barely held together

Say what you will of the Headhunter, the Z-95 is a formidible space superiority fighter. i have flown in and against it in Galaxies JTL as well as Alliance it should not be underestimated because it is "old Tech" so is the F-16, F-4, A-10, MIG-21 but they are still all fearsome craft and still used throughout the world

Master Dao Rin
16 December 2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Darth Fury
It doesn't matter if he created it or not he licensed it and trademarked it, therefore he can do as he pleases with it. GL's problem is he wants the look and tech of ep 1 2 3 to be more stylized, modern and flashy, and also to appeal to kids growing up now rather than making the films have the look and feel of ep 4 5 6 and appealing to the fans whose adoration built him his empire.............:( :rolleyes: :raised:

No, he'd still have to give credit using both the image and the moniker "Z-95" together because he didn't come up with those ideas ( or pay someone to come up with those ideas for his own creation ).

He might OWN those ideas, he just can't claim he created them which is what he'd have to do if he used them in the film.

It would be like if you wrote the Rebellion Era sourcebook, yet I own the rights to it and claiming I made the book. Bad.

Which is why most of the EU will never be validated ( or made Canon with a capital "G" ).

Same thing with you sending a manuscript to WotC for an unsolicited sourcebook, for example. They'll'd never open it and read it because, if they published something that you identified as "your idea", you could file a lawsuit against them.

Filter
27 December 2004, 03:16 AM
Maybe Lucas didnīt use the Z-95 because itīs not "cool" enougth for Episode III. All the fans allready know it and it would nothing new to show.
Or maybe the Z-95 is a Fighter and the new design is a fighter/bomber and has a different role. Maybe they use the Z-95 but not in the battle seen in Episode III. Who knows...
The new fighter reminds me to an WW2 bomber. The Douglas A-24 "Dauntless". It looks as if those two has something in common for me.

hisham
27 December 2004, 03:48 AM
I used to have a Dauntless Airfix model kit. The ARC-170 absolutely reminds me of it. Especially the cockpit design.