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Ronin
3 January 2005, 05:35 PM
A discussion over on Theforce.net got me thinking.....
do the galactic public know (or ever find out about) Darth Sidious?
It seems that somewhere between ep3 and 4 he drops the "Darth" and remains "Palpatine".
The public (Imperial citizens) don't know that he's a Sith?

Heck, most of the inhabitants of the galaxy have pretty much forgotten about the Jedi, so I'd guess not many knew about the Sith during the Rise of the Empire era...even less during the Rebellion.
And it seems that even high ranking Imperial officers don't know about Palpatine's Force-use since an officer on the first Death Star (General Tagge IIRC) disses Vader on his sad devotion to a forgotten religion...he sure wouldn't say that if he knew Palpatine's power...

Just a thought...

Paladin611
3 January 2005, 05:55 PM
I was thinking about this as well (got the original trilogy DVDs for Christmas, so been watching a lot of SW lately).

It seems to me that nobody knows that Palpy's a Sith. Unless we see in Ep. III that he comes out in a major way, then Vader would be the only Sith in the films who really makes his presence known to the galaxy at large. Darth Maul was on and off the scene too quickly to get noticed; Tyrannus' part (so far) has been pretty limited from the general public's eye; and the Jedi Council seems to be keepng the whole Sith re-emergence real hush-hush...

I reckon most people think that Vader is the first and only Sith for generations. I've always thought that the Emperor's ability to downplay the whole Sith thing publicly--whilst still doing his Dark Side deeds privately--is what has made him able to convince so many worlds to agree to accept his New Order.

Surely if he came out and said, "Yo, check me out: SIth Lord!" most people would be thinking, "This guy is probably a baddie..."

Comments?

Darth Fierce
4 January 2005, 04:25 AM
I'd say to most of the general public the Sith are the boogey-men of the Star Wars galaxy. Over the eons, the Sith have become mythological to most people. In the "Fall of the Sith Empire" graphic novel most people dismiss Jori Daragon's stories about the true Sith (and their impending invasion), because to the general public the Sith had become nothing more than that--stories and legends. That's why the Republic at large is caught off-guard when the true Sith actually show up...

I'd say that after the Battle of Ruusan, that the Sith went back into obscurity, as it comes as a shock to the Jedi Council in TPM that a new Sith (Darth Maul) has been encountered. They virtually believed that the Sith had been completely wiped out until then.

While a few people know of the name "Darth Sidious," I'd say that, as of right now, Palpatine and Dooku are the only two that know Sidious' true identity.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Ronin
4 January 2005, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by Darth Fierce
While a few people know of the name "Darth Sidious," I'd say that, as of right now, Palpatine and Dooku are the only two that know Sidious' true identity.

Darth Fierce :vader:

But in the Rebellion era?
Vader (d'uh!)...Tarkin...anyone else?

Darth_Cassed
4 January 2005, 11:49 AM
I think the whole Jedi council is soon to find out who Palpatine really is. Obi-Wan already has the story thata Sith is in charge of the senate, it's only a matter of time before he really believes it and the pieces are put together.

Darth Fierce
4 January 2005, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Ronin


But in the Rebellion era?
Vader (d'uh!)...Tarkin...anyone else?

Don't forget Obi-Wan and Yoda...

My point was that the general populace probably doesn't think that much about Sith during the Rise of the Empire era...the non-Jedi that probably learn that Palpatine is a Sith during said time include Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and a few others.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Master Dao Rin
8 January 2005, 09:07 AM
Actually, by the time the Jedi know, everyone will know.

Unfortunately, 99% of the galaxy wouldn't give a flying Ranat's butt what he calls himself. To the vast majority of people, he's simply "The Emperor" and the one in charge, who either "brought order to the galaxy" or untold tyranny.

And, I think most people wouldn't comprehend the scope of his power since I doubt he gives regular displays of his power ( that's what Vader's for, and his iron fist can be tagged onto those "vile" sorcerous Jedi ).

Thus, most don't understand what it truly means to be as "Sith" and probably wouldn't care either for that matter.

TheCegorach
12 January 2005, 02:48 AM
If the general populace doesn't seem to believe in Jedi any more (only 20 years after they were openly running around swinging lightsabers in nightclubs on _Coruscant_), why would they regard the Sith as anything other than fables?

I mean, really--"sad devotion to your ancient religion"? 20 years is ancient history? Or Han Solo, who snubs Obi-Wan's explanations about the Force, but is old enough that he should remember the Jedi during the Clone Wars from personal experience?

So, like I said--if people are willing to dismiss what they've seen themselves as "ancient," what do you think they'll think of something they haven't even seen themselves (i.e., Palpatine swinging a lightsaber)?

Altman
12 January 2005, 07:14 AM
Ok...so i just had a thought about how folks in the rebellion era remember the Jedi. Your right...Han is old enough to have seen them fight in the clone wars. The imperials on the death star were also around in that time frame.

So what if the folks that have seen them do remember & believe? I know everyone says they don't, but follow me on this one.

We all say and do things we don't believe in for one reason or another. If you were a kid (I'm thinking Solo would have ben 10-13 or some such around the clone wars...correct me if i'm wrong) andwere watching the news on the holonet (or seeing a battle in person if you were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time) a large part of what your seeing is the Jedi, who you've always looked up to getting slaughtered. After the wars are over the few jedi that are surviving (like Obi-Wan) go into hiding.

you grow up...you meet one of them...you get the chance to listen to what their teachings are...and your emotional reaction to them having let you down all those years ago...you lash out...make cracks about "hoky weapons & aincent religons"....

although the imperials in the briefing (and the rest of the world as well likely) are likely having similar reactions in some ways...coupled with the fact that the Emperor discourages belief in the fource (with the strange exception of Vader)...they likely all remember quite well...but don't talk about it....

or am I just quite full of it? anyway let me knwo what you think...

JediJester
13 January 2005, 02:09 PM
In TPM, I seem to remember that Obi and Qui-Gon didn't know what a Sith was. After the fight with Darth Maul on Tatooine, I thought that Qui-Gon made a comment to someone that he didn't know who Darth Maul was, but that he was "trained in the Jedi arts". If not all Jedi know what a Sith is, then I'm guessing that very few commoners, if any, know what the heck a Sith is.

Because no one besides the Jedi know what Sith are, when Darth Vader comes out and titles himself "Lord of the Sith", not many people are going to react. Besides, I doubt people would care much about what Darth Vader titled himself as long as he didn't choke them. What's more, if a scary dude like Vader wanted to title himself Lord of the Flourescent Light Bulb, who's gonna argue with him. With Vader, I would think most people don't really care about what he calls himself as long as he stays well away from them.

Whats more, since the Jedi are all in hiding or destroyed, no one is around to tell people that Sith are the "bad guys". On top of that, just about everyone thinks the Force is a "hokey religion". Sure, Vader walked around choking people with the Force and preaching about the power of the Force, but Tarkin and the rest who had actually seen him do stuff didn't pay him much heed.

TheCegorach
13 January 2005, 06:53 PM
See, JediJester, that's the part I just don't get. Tarkin and others who've seen Force users in action still persist in labelling those beliefs "hokey old religion."

Both Han Solo and the officer who denigrated Vader's beliefs on the Death Star (and got choked--sorry, I'm not enough of a geek to know his name off hand) were old enough to have been around when the Jedi were active.

I mean, if *I* saw someone levitating stuff, I'd certainly not dismiss their abilities and/or belief system. I'm not Christian, but if I'd actually seen Jesus healing people and walking on water, I don't think I'd dismiss him so easily, even thirty years later.

"Oh, that old crazy fool--he walked on water, thought he was special or something...can't believe he was so full of himself." ??? Not likely.

JediJester
14 January 2005, 12:43 PM
See, JediJester, that's the part I just don't get. Tarkin and others who've seen Force users in action still persist in labelling those beliefs "hokey old religion."
Let's face it, no matter how well thought out a movie is, there will almost always be something in it that makes you pause and say, "What the...?" The best we can do is explain it as best we can and enjoy the entertainment the movie has to offer.

The explination I have for their lack of belief in Vader's powers is that he really doesn't use his powers much, other than choking people. But in a world with repulsor lifts, artificial gravity, and force fields, technology could be used to explain Vader's power in their mind. The black armor that Vader always wears could have a bunch of technological gizmos that enable him to choke people from a distance.

What's more, the Emporer did/is doing all he can to wipe out knowledge of the Jedi and the Force. He wants only himself and a select few to be able to use the "awesome power of the darkside". Since this is the case, who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe the diplomatic man who is running the show or the sadistic maniac who hides in his black armor?

Anyways, these are the best explinations I can come up with for that discrepincy. Feel free to come up with a better one :P.

Fred Getce
14 January 2005, 02:04 PM
No one refers to Vader as "Darth Vader" in the OT, they all refer to him as "Lord Vader". The only person in the OT who referred to him as "Darth Vader" was Princess Leia on the Tantive IV (I may be wrong).

Leia: "Darth Vader. Only you'd be so bold."

Everyone else says Lord Vader.

Lando: "Lord Vader we only use this facility for carbon freezing..."
Tarkin: "Lord Vader release him..."
Admiral Ozzel: "Lord Vader the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we are preparing too..."
Admiral Piett: "Thank you, Lord Vader."
Admiral Piett: "Lord Vader, the Emperor demands you make contact with him..."
Moff Jerrod<sp>: "Lord Vader, what an unexpected pleasure this is, we are honored by your presence..." <not sure if that is correct line>

No one else referred to him as Darth Vader. It was always Lord Vader. So more than likely no one knows the Sith connection. Infact Leia's reference may have gone over the heads of the Imperials with him at the time. Though I do believe that they know Lord Vader was in/or had connections to, the Jedi Order.

About Sidious, everyone knew him as Senator Palpatine, than Chancellor Palpatine. No one knew him as Senator Sidious or Chancellor Sidious. So Palpatine is Palpatine to the galaxy. Only Yoda, Ben, Bail and Vader (maybe a few others) know who Palpatine really is. I doubt he made a public anouncement that he is a Sith Lord. Infact it seems to me that he went to a lot of trouble to protect his secret identity, to a point where he had two personalities. When he was in the senate halls speaking to the senators and even to the Jedi he seemed to be just what he was. The Supreme Chancellor to the Old Republic. When he was with his darkside underlings, hosever, he took on a totally different demeanor and attitude to a point where he was no longer Palpatine.

Plus by the time of ANH, it has been twenty years since the clone wars, I doubt many of the Imperial officers on the DS were even involved in the Clone Wars. Plus, by the Phantom Menace, the Jedi were on a major decline by than too, so many beings of the galaxy lived out their entire lives never seeing a Jedi, let alone a Jedi in action. So too many people of the Republic, even the Jedi Order was slowly becoming more of a myth or legend than actual fact, by than. It also made it that much easier for the Emperor to stamp out the last remembrance of their existance.

Vanger Chevane
14 January 2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Fred Getce
No one refers to Vader as "Darth Vader" in the OT, they all refer to him as "Lord Vader". The only person in the OT who referred to him as "Darth Vader" was Princess Leia on the Tantive IV (I may be wrong).

Leia: "Darth Vader. Only you'd be so bold."

Everyone else says Lord Vader.

Lando: "Lord Vader we only use this facility for carbon freezing..."
Tarkin: "Lord Vader release him..."
Admiral Ozzel: "Lord Vader the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we are preparing too..."
Admiral Piett: "Thank you, Lord Vader."
Admiral Piett: "Lord Vader, the Emperor demands you make contact with him..."
Moff Jerrod<sp>: "Lord Vader, what an unexpected pleasure this is, we are honored by your presence..." <not sure if that is correct line>

No one else referred to him as Darth Vader. It was always Lord Vader. So more than likely no one knows the Sith connection. Infact Leia's reference may have gone over the heads of the Imperials with him at the time. Though I do believe that they know Lord Vader was in/or had connections to, the Jedi Order.

All the speakers (excepting Lando) are Imperials and have to use the appropriate title. The Imperial Era also seems to be rather feudal, with various Lords and such ruling over their corner of the Emipre so Vader having some sort of Lordship (even tho it's not realistically a Landed Title) would place him on a social par with these "lesser leaders".

There is proof in ANH that at least some people know Vader was a Jedi. Prior to being Force-choked, the officer in the DS briefing room states as if it were common knowledge (at least amongst those present) "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't produce the stolen plans, nor given you Clairvoyance enough to...ack, urrrgh". Moff Tarkin also tells Vader regarding Jedi "You, my friend, are the last of their kind. Their fire has gone out of the galaxy."

So at the very least, Senior Imperial Leadership know of the Jedi and Vader's having been one of the Jedi Order. Senior Leadership is also usually the only ones in the military who would've been in service 20+ years and may have served during the Clone Wars.


About Sidious, everyone knew him as Senator Palpatine, than Chancellor Palpatine. No one knew him as Senator Sidious or Chancellor Sidious. So Palpatine is Palpatine to the galaxy. Only Yoda, Ben, Bail and Vader (maybe a few others) know who Palpatine really is. I doubt he made a public anouncement that he is a Sith Lord. Infact it seems to me that he went to a lot of trouble to protect his secret identity, to a point where he had two personalities. When he was in the senate halls speaking to the senators and even to the Jedi he seemed to be just what he was. The Supreme Chancellor to the Old Republic. When he was with his darkside underlings, hosever, he took on a totally different demeanor and attitude to a point where he was no longer Palpatine.
It also leaves open the possibility of Sidious being a Sith Spirit who attached itself to Palpatine and would only take full control of the body as needed. Much of the time it would likely be subtly steering Palpatine into doing its dirty work, and staying off the "Jedi-dar" much as Exar Kun did in the novels. Warping an Upstanding Senator into a Darkside Devotee would probably be something a Dark Lord would revel in.

By RotJ, if not earlier, Palpatine is fully his own Darksider. In the beginning however, there is room for outside influences to come into play, setting and guiding him along that Dark Path. :D

Darth Fierce
14 January 2005, 04:25 PM
IIRC, Leia refers to Vader as "Lord Vader" in ANH, just as Lando and the Imperials. The only people that refer to Vader as "Darth" in the OT are Obi-Wan and Luke (and Yoda, IIRC). Unless I've forgotten something, even the Emperor doesn't refer to Vader as "Darth" in the movies (at this point). Strange, considering the fact that he does refer to Maul as "Darth" in TPM.

Tarkin's comment to Vader in ANH may suggest that he (Tarkin) doesn't even know the truth about the Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious connection. It's quite possible that Tarkin knows that Vader is a Sith, but doesn't quite understand how the Emperor can keep control of him (Vader)...

Darth Fierce :vader:

Ronin
15 January 2005, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane

... Moff Tarkin also tells Vader regarding Jedi "You, my friend, are the last of their kind. Their fire has gone out of the galaxy."


That line got me thinking...what if by the end of the Clone Wars, the whole galaxy blames the Jedi for the clone wars..."their fire" being the way that the Clone Wars scorched and burned the galaxy...
blaming them for it all would help....since everyone would do their best to forget about such a dark, dangerous group...
it'd also add to the fear-of-Vader factor, since he's the last of the group who tore the galaxy apart.

Just a thought...

Lucas Carr
28 January 2005, 12:10 PM
After watching the DVD version of ANH, and reading this thread before doing so this was one of the things I was looking for.

What do people call Darth Vader? Answers are based on ANH - DVD version.

* Tarkin is the only one that addresses Vader without using a title.
* All other Imperials call him Lord Vader
* Obi-Wan and Leia call him Darth Vader, which I'm going to use to support my theory that she knew about Jedi before ANH

MikeLynch
18 March 2005, 10:38 AM
Obi-Wan and Leia call him Darth Vader, which I'm going to use to support my theory that she knew about Jedi before ANH
But notice how Obi-Wan -- and Luke in ROTJ -- call him "Darth," as though it's his first name.

I would postulate that anyone who calls Lord Vader "Darth Vader" is simply dropping the title as a veiled insult, and that they think they're using his first name. Darth sounds like a first name, after all.

It's highly unlikely that anyone seen in the films, even Obi-Wan in ANH, would know enough about Sith tradition that they would recognize that Darth, too, is a title. That's the whole Sith thing: secrecy.


Because no one besides the Jedi know what Sith are, when Darth Vader comes out and titles himself "Lord of the Sith", not many people are going to react.
Sure. Think about all the crazy titles British monarchs have. Prince of this, Lord of that. In the SWU, there'd be so many "Planets No One's Ever Heard Of" that, if a high-ranking military dude (Vader) takes a title that the average Joe doesn't recognize (Lord of the Sith), that Joe will just assume the Sith are some grateful species that have elected him their figurehead ruler or something.

A few eccentric academics would know what the Sith are, of course, but who's gonna believe those stories in the secularized "hokey-religions" Classic Era?


But in a world with repulsor lifts, artificial gravity, and force fields, technology could be used to explain Vader's power in their mind. The black armor that Vader always wears could have a bunch of technological gizmos that enable him to choke people from a distance.
Indeed! In fact, when I was very young, that's what I thought he was doing. (Guess I was a non-mystically-minded kid.)


I mean, really--"sad devotion to your ancient religion"? 20 years is ancient history? Or Han Solo, who snubs Obi-Wan's explanations about the Force, but is old enough that he should remember the Jedi during the Clone Wars from personal experience?
Think of the Jedi as a fiercely unpopular political group. Let's say the Nazis. By 1968, people were making Nazi jokes (see The Producers) and generally dismissing their entire ethos. Is it then so implausible that Tarkin could truly believe "their fire has gone out of the universe" after the same 20-year span?

As far as "ancient," well, I'd guess he was trying to communicate that the Jedi tradition was ancient (it was) and laughably old-fashioned in the "New Order" mindset (makes sense).


That line got me thinking...what if by the end of the Clone Wars, the whole galaxy blames the Jedi for the clone wars...
I've always assumed this would probably be the outcome. The new ROTS trailer seems to confirm it. "Every single Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic."


"their fire" being the way that the Clone Wars scorched and burned the galaxy...
blaming them for it all would help....since everyone would do their best to forget about such a dark, dangerous group...
it'd also add to the fear-of-Vader factor, since he's the last of the group who tore the galaxy apart.
Yes -- and yet they might also believe he was "redeemed" by the "benevolent" Emperor. ;)

It's worth remembering in this debate that WEG (a primary publisher of classic-era content) often hinted that the occasional fringer -- smugglers, gamblers, pilots, etc. -- really did know about Vader's gnarly Dark Side powers. But I've been assuming (and hopefully ROTS doesn't disprove this) that you'd have to be pretty well-traveled and well-connected to learn stuff like that about Vader, and even more so to have any inkling that the Emperor is anything other than (choose one)
- a heroic savior of billions of lives
- a harmless doddering old figurehead
- a dangerous, psychopathic dictator
...none of which possess Force abilities.

I'll tell you one thing that worries me, though. That shot in the ROTS trailer where Sidious is trashing the Senate Chamber. How the hell's he gonna explain that one the next day? (I smell an explanatory Pablo Hidalgo Holonet article...)

Darth Fierce
18 March 2005, 04:42 PM
Somehow I get the impression that...

Palpatine/Sidious declares every Jedi an enemy of the Republic because of Mace Windu's posse's assault on the Chancellor in his chambers. It's likely Palpatine puts a spin on the forementioned events to make him look like a victim.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Kordeth
18 March 2005, 05:31 PM
A few points: first of all, according to the ANH novelization, the Emperor was certainly not lnown as a Sith during his reign--in fact, he was generally regarded as the savior of the galaxy who had, in his old age, been isolated from the people and usurped by corrupt, power-hungry nobles--rather like the evil eunuchs who always seem to end up usurping the Emperor of China in old kung fu movies.

Second of all, regarding the Darth title--Leia, Obi-Wan, and Luke use the name "Darth Vader." Everyone else refers to him as "Lord Vader" or simply "Vader." And, interestingly, Obi-Wan refers to him simply as "Darth" at one or two points--implying that Obi-Wan didn't even know it was a Sith title and not just the new name Anakin took for himself.

Sidious, on the other hand, refers to Maul as Darth Maul only when speaking about him to the Neimoidians--he calls him Lord Maul when speaking directly to him. For what it's worth, nobody has yet used the name "Darth Sidious" in the prequels as of yet--I don't think. Dooku might have named him during his "confession" to Obi-Wan, I can't recall.

Finally, about the hokey religion--just because individuals have seen Jedi powers in action doesn't mean the only explanation for them is the Force, or even that the Force is as the Jedi believed it to be. Modern sciece, for instance, has recorded some fairly amazing feats that can be accomplished by practitioners of certain types of meditation, but skeptics certainly don't attribute them to some divine or supernatural power. Rather, they're looked on as simply as-yet-not-entirely-understood functions of the brain's ability to regulate the body's functions.

Darth Mathieu
19 March 2005, 03:57 PM
Others know of the Emperor's use of the force and his elingment to the darkside. For example, the Royal Guardsmen. As part of there training they under go force training from Lord Vader and the Emperor. And what about the Emperors Hands, such as Mara Jade. Also the Prophets of the Dark Side.

pilnick1944
22 March 2005, 07:49 AM
******** SPOILERS ************
A couple of words from me.
The funny thing is: I've been always thinking how the heck did the Jedi become non-grata in the galaxy. How could have the keepers of galactic peace be found and eradicated, without the rest of the galaxy aiding them in their efforts to outwit the Emperor's minions...
And now, after watching the trailer...
Why, sure!
Palpy IS a genius. The Jedi Council knows about him being a Sith, they try to take him out... To take out the Supreme Chancellor. Now, add one thing to the other and there you have it: the secret masters of the Republic, equipped with all those mental-powers (or so they say) and really apt at cajolling people into things get angry, because someone appears and tries to wipe out the corruption, to take power away from them... Sure, Palpy, the good-guy does the only thing he could have done: outlaws all Jedi as traitors to the Republic.
It's that simple.