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Slave_1
26 March 2005, 12:20 AM
It is apearent from the movies that clones were around a lot sooner that I had thought. Would it be fesable to play a former Clone commander, old and raged after years of hiding? Basically alter the former imp officer template, but just how old would he/she be? And would the insanity have already killed him by the time A New Hope comes in to play?

cheshire
26 March 2005, 06:06 AM
Note that the insanity factor was only brought in by Zahn (and is probably disregarded by Lucas). Regardless, the Kamino clones are grown at twice the natural rate, and even by Zahn's standards that shouldn't cause insanity.

Ronin
26 March 2005, 06:17 AM
Check the Old Republic and Rise of the Empire forum...we already have a discussion about this. :clonetpr:

Slave_1
26 March 2005, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the info. I will start looking there.

wolverine
26 March 2005, 05:52 PM
I though the Zahn insanity for clones only came into play if they were grown too quickly (like in 2 weeks or so)...

jedi_lucky
7 April 2005, 11:05 AM
i thought that clones aged alot faster than we do too? so would it be possible for one to live that long?


lucky
:daala:

gordoss_Vaa
7 April 2005, 11:57 AM
thats pretty kool idea

browwiw
7 April 2005, 03:07 PM
Because of their accelerated growth clones only have an operational life span of about 20 years (ten to grow up and be trained, 5 for peak performance, and then 5 for declining performance and eventual old age). At least, this what I gleaned from the Clone Commandos: Hard Contact novel (which was surprisingly good...and this is coming from some one who despises most Star Wars novels).

Also mentioned in Hard Contact and various Dark Horse Clone Wars comic books is that fact that ARC Troopers, Clone Commandos and other 'low expendability' clone soldiers are put into suspended animation inbetween missions. This gives them a longer 'shelf life', if you will.

So, it's entirely possible that a few ARCs, Commandos, or Officers made it into the Rebellion era via extended supended animation.

Just givin' ya options.

jedi_lucky
8 April 2005, 08:22 AM
hmmm...i had forgotten about cryo freezing completely! thats an excellent point! i was just on the track of a clone going into hiding. thanks for that info. i guess i wasnt thinking of all the options!

lucky
:daala:

Ronen Tal-Ravis
8 April 2005, 09:25 AM
Well since stormtroopers are most probably ( at least to large extends ) clones as well, you can have clones of any age, they are just not veterans of the clone wars then.

jedi_lucky
8 April 2005, 09:34 AM
hmmm...my understanding is that stormtroopers are not clones...that they were just normal people who enlisted in the imperial army? where did you learn that they were clones? i would like to see this since i may have been wrong all this time....i am so confused now...lol

lucky
:daala:

browwiw
8 April 2005, 11:19 AM
Oh, boy, this where we get into what I call Stormtrooper Apologetics. For nameless, dime-a-dozen secondary characters their origins do stir up a lot of fervant debate in the Star Wars fan and gamer community.

Ok...we have years of EU sources (which spans both ends of the quality spectrum) telling us that the Stormtroopers ranks are filled by conscripts and volunteers who have been brainwashed into total Imperial loyalty. We have numerous comic books, novels and short stories that have characters that were Stormtrooper canidates (including, at one time, Han Solo). This is how it's been for about twenty years and most people took as the rule.

Episode Two comes out and we find out that the clones are actually the good guys and they are, in fact, the forerunners of the Stormtroopers. To compound matters, Lucas actually states in the director commentary of the Ep2 DVD that stormtroopers have always been clones and thats how he intended it from the start. Indeed, he has Jango bang his head on Slave 1's cargo door to playfully connect back with the Stormtrooper who bangs his head in A New Hope.

And now we have the great Stormtrooper Origin Fandom Schism. The way people hem and haw over it you'd think Martin Luther had tacked it up himself on the front door on Industrial Light and Magic.

Ok, so how do we resolve this without totally contradicting 'canon' and/or tossing out nearly twenty years worth of EU?

Though you may have strong feelings on either side, here's how I explain clone Storm troopers in my game:

1. The Clone Troopers do indeed make up the original forces of the Stormtrooper ranks. Because of their accelerated lifespans and the sheep amount of attrition in the Clone Wars, these 'veteran clones' only exist in the Legions for about five years.

We do know that the Kamino Cloners were constanly cycling through generations of clones. Even as the first Clone Trooper died in the sand at the Battle of Geonosis, there was an entire generation of clone fetuses waiting to be 'hatched' (not to mention the generations still in training). These 'newer models' would easily replinish the Stormtrooper ranks for at least a decade, especially since the Empire adopted a 'blast them from orbit' policy instead of the linear ground warfare techniques of the Old Republic

Now, as far as the Kamino cloners, my theory is that the Empire confiscated their facilities and technology, if not totally wiping them out as a culture. After that, the Empire sets up their own cloning facilites across across the galaxy and begin cloning Stormies with the 'Wal-Mart Plan'. That is, they lower the cost of producing mass amounts of troops by creating more and more faciliites and lowering the quality of each individual unit.

For example, instead of raising and training the clones by hand like the Kaminos did, the Empire accelerates their maturation time from 10 to 5 or 7 years (and also does violate Zahn's novels) and most of ther training and indoctrination is done subliminally in the 'womb'. This, of course, cuts production costs and allows them to field more troops faster. Also, it explains why Stormtroopes can't hit the side of a barn and suck when compared to Clone Troopers.

My theory for conscript and volunteer stormies is that the empire would rather train some highly specialized troops and officers than take the time and trouble to grow them. Also, since the Empire is all about aristocrats, becoming a Storm Trooper officer allows a noble to rise quickly in the Imperial hierarchy.

Anyway, that's how I handle Stormies in my games and my players seem to be placated.

jedi_lucky
8 April 2005, 11:49 AM
so what you are saying is that stormtrooprs are a combo of the two? some of them were older clones and some were actually common people? and just for the record i wasnt saying anyone was right or wrong i was just curious where it came from since there are many views...however i can understand the combo theory and see it probably being the most reasonable one i have seen.

lucky
:daala:

browwiw
8 April 2005, 12:13 PM
Well, what I'm saying is that the vast majority of Stormtroopers are clones. Officers and highly specialiized troopers are most likely conscripts and volunteers.

Also, the clones of the Rebellion era don't have the level of training and skill of the first Clone Troopers, which the Kaminos treated almost like works of art.

Mr. Fett
8 April 2005, 01:53 PM
I'm going to stick with canon and if that tosses out EU then that stinks but its not the end of the world. And it wouldn't be out of question for backwater governors to get a few soldiers together and put a stormtrooper armor suit on them and pretend they are stormtroopers. Either way it doesn't really matter when it comes to roleplaying. Pick which ever you like most and stick with it as long as it satisfies your needs.

jedi_lucky
8 April 2005, 02:41 PM
well i think i am going to have to just agree with Mr.Fett...when it comes to roleplaying it really doesnt matter. it all depends on what is decided by the GM and the players. so all and all i am not going to worry about which is right and which is wrong!

thanks Mr.Fett
lucky
:daala:

browwiw
8 April 2005, 09:05 PM
But over explaining it is half the fun.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
9 April 2005, 04:13 AM
Just wanted to provide a solution for the clone-age problem. :D

In my RPG group it never relly mattered, and I think it is perfectly ok to pu in non-clone troopers if it is needed for the story. After all fun is what counts.

Quamis Dorsaan
1 May 2005, 01:55 AM
If you want to talk about clones try: the new republic era for Jango Fett's clones or the new republic era to talk about Luke's clone or the Emperor's clone.:clonetpr:

BrianDavion
9 May 2005, 11:55 PM
ugh can weplease just all pretend dark empire never happened

boccelounge
25 May 2005, 10:45 AM
Hola. I don't know if this thread is dead, but I thought I'd weigh in.

I agree with what's been said here-- that Clone Troopers (somehow) lead to Stormtroopers, but that the Empire (somehow) handles cloning differently than the Republic did, and it (somehow) mixes in some non-clone troops as well. I guess we're calling it the "combo approach."

But I thought I'd add that the "Stormtroopers might be clones" idea goes way back to ANH. I don't know how old you guys are, but this question was around from the very beginning-- are they clones? Are they androids? Aliens??

Unfortunately, I can't give you guys any specific references, but I'm sure there was some poster, bubble-gum card, Kenner catalog, 'zine article, or something that made a vague connection between the Stormtroopers and the Clone Wars. If I ever get down in Mom's basement I'll try to dig somethng up...

My take has long been the some Stormtroopers *might* be clones, but that a) this isn't publicly mentioned; b) there are probably clones from several/many different sources (i.e. not just Jango); and c) there are probably many non-clones in the ranks as well.

I've also long had the impression that in the Rebellion Era, cloning is quite taboo, and probably illegal (as are droid amies). Again, I can't remember any specific citations, but I always got the impression that the average Galactic Citizen would take great offense to cloning. AND, I always thought it was implied that these attitudes stemmed from whatever happened during the 'Clone Wars' (and now we know, of course).

And that's how I always thought of the Empire's Stormtroopers-- some were drawn from the ranks of the 'ordinary' Imperial Army, some were directly recruited, some were discretely derived from cloning. Stormtrooper training facilities like Carida (or wherever) were secretive enough that no one really knew and no really mentioned who/where these white-masked guys really came from.

I suppose that agrees with what most people here are saying, but I wanted to point out that these questions didn't start with AotC-- they've always been around.

And I think this is born out by the films-- you'll notice that in the new OT Special Editions, Boba Fett's original voice (Jeremy Bulloch) is replaced by Jango's (Temeura Morrison), BUT the Stormtrooper voices are NOT changed, nor are their heights the same-- even for the CGI Stormtroopers added to the prints.

(Even with all this in mind, I was still BLOWN AWAY by the Stormtrooper/Clone appearance in AotC... wow... )

Ronen Tal-Ravis
26 May 2005, 01:22 AM
Some voices of stormies were changed with Jango's voice - I read na interview were Morrison told about rereading the lines of some Stormies in the original trilogy.
And I think all of these are clones, yet not form one source. I think the Emperor would make sure that all of his troopers are genetically created to be loyal to him, like the original clones.
However, in the crossections-book of EP III it is said that even in the clone wars there were clones from other sources than Jango. But I believe that the stormies were all clones.

Darth Fierce
26 May 2005, 05:39 AM
There was a story from "Star Wars Tales" that addressed the idea of a Clonetrooper surviving late into the Rebellion Era. Somehow he gets marooned on an isolated planet and is discovered by Luke and another Rebel. At first, the trooper thinks that the Clone War is still going on, and that Luke and his friend are Separatists, but eventually learns that the Republic won the war, only to be replaced by the Empire. The story also hints about the clones being involved in the Jedi Purges, IIRC. I forget how the story ends, but take the preceeding information for what you will...

Darth Fierce :vader:

PneumaZ
26 May 2005, 06:20 AM
Hi all. This may be moot because people will want to believe what they like, but in the Star Wars issue of Entertainment Weekly (Anakin is on the cover holding his lightsaber in formal military saulte style) they had a conversation with Lucas and covered this.

Sacttered throughout the interview are Block Pages that have things like "5 Best Lines from Star Wars" etc... One of these asks Lucas about things he has always dodged to see if he will give a straight answer and he covers Stormtroopers and Clonetroopers.

It essentially says that in his mind there are still some Clone Troopers in service by the time Ep4 rolls around but that have been supplanted by newer models and that there are more than one template of clones now. So there are Jango Fett's clones, Billy Bob's clones, Jim Bob's clones etc...

In addition to that there are also conscripted stormtroopers, people who have been raised in the dogma of the Empire but weren't smart enough to be a ranking officer. So in the end both parties are right. There are regular troops and clone troopers. The impression is that the mix is like 70-30 People to Clones. So now everyone can be happy.

boccelounge
26 May 2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by PneumaZ
Hi all. This may be moot because people will want to believe what they like, but in the Star Wars issue of Entertainment Weekly (Anakin is on the cover holding his lightsaber in formal military saulte style) they had a conversation with Lucas and covered this.

So in the end both parties are right. There are regular troops and clone troopers. The impression is that the mix is like 70-30 People to Clones. So now everyone can be happy.

I know I am! An unambiguous answer to one of the perplexing, 28-year old questions. Thanks!

Although, I suppose the question now is "what does this *mean* in the Rebellion Era?" (And how do we keep this thread appropriate to this forum... heh... )

That is, do citizens of the Empire commonly KNOW the STs are clones? Do they care? Is there lingering anti-clone sentiment? Do some suspect but no one dare mention? These are things, it seems to me, most helpful for a RPG.

Thoughts?

Slave_1
26 May 2005, 07:31 PM
If the split really is 70-30, then it shouldn't be too hard to keep the clones thinned out enough, or in there own units, to keep suspision at bay. ST's (I am assume) would have to go through very tough training that would probably include some sort of altering of personality so they can be truly fearless in battle, and insanly loyal. This would stop, for the most, qestioning from within the ranks. Since poeple only see the uniform, (do you ever call a cop by his/her name? or just officer?), they probably would not know, and not want to know even if the info was public. All the average citizen would be aware of is strong, mean and armed to teeth. Keeping the shroud of secracy is important to the Tarkin doctrine of rule by fear.

Faraer
27 May 2005, 09:02 AM
PneumaZ, is that the issue here (http://www.ewanmcgregor.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=561)? Which page has the material you're referring to?

PneumaZ
27 May 2005, 10:45 AM
Hmmm, its not any of those. I may be thinking of the wrong Mag. I have a lot of Star Wars Themed Mags at the house. I will go through them and find exactly which one it is and what page it is on so you can reference it.

Sorry about the mixup!!!!

Aldaron
27 May 2005, 09:48 PM
Hehe...we actually have a former clone trooper in my campaign. His name is "Zevenn", and he was actually the trooper that helped Padme to her feet in Episode II, after she fell from the LAAT.

When we rolled up stats, Andrew rolled up stats that were, coincidentally, identical to Jango Fett's, and we couldn't just let that go!

I was reading through some of my books earlier, and remembered something said in the Visual Dictionary, which mentioned (from memory) something about seven in every 100 clones having less of a preponderance to be obedient, etc (that's where the "Zevenn" name came from - it's a play on "Seven"; he was one of "the seven in a hundred").

He came up with a background - after the Battle of Geonosis, Zevenn was peeved about fighting someone else's war with no choice, so he deserted and headed for the Outer Rim. He spent years there working as a mercenary, fighting for various causes and eventually returning to the mainstream galaxy during the Rebellion era.

Much had changed - he was in his thirties, for a start, but he was an experienced warrior by now, and had followed his "father's" path and was a bounty hunter, though with a semblance of a conscience.

Of course, this was before we knew about certain numbered orders and such, so I'm not sure what we'll do to preserve continuity! :D

Lord Kjeran
29 May 2005, 09:30 AM
Chello!


Originally posted by Aldaron
Of course, this was before we knew about certain numbered orders and such, so I'm not sure what we'll do to preserve continuity! :D

How about this? I just got the Rots mini game. In there, clone troopers have the ability "Order 66"--it basically means that even though they are Republic faction, they can also be be used in Imperial faction as well. Also, they cannot attack Sideous.

The game "retrocons" to say that cards from previous sets that are clones have order 66, if though it is not listed on teh card. However, the rules also state taht ARC trooper cards, while clones, do not have order 66 imprinted in them.

Maybe you can use that rationale for the 7% as well....

Just a thought.

Tony

CaamasiJedi49
29 May 2005, 12:14 PM
But he wasn't around ARC Commanders when Order 66 was given, so he isn't all anti-Jedi (unless he became so during his time in the Outer Rim had him become so). And to add on to what you said lord kjeran, I found this great explanation of what exactly order 66 is here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/gree/). I had always wondered waht exactly Order 66 meant until I read this. Pretty cool. To sum it all up, it pretty much says the Clones, due to their loyalty and obediance programming to Palpy, were duped into believing the Jedi turned against the Republic.

Caamasi Jedi49

PsychoInfiltrator
29 May 2005, 05:41 PM
Your summation was almost as long as the explanation.

The reason ARCs are immune is that they have the ability of independant thought, and thus, are ultimately superior soldiers. Seeing as this Zevenn was independant enough to actually desert, I'd class him as an ARC in the independant thinking area, so you shouldn't have a problem.

The only problem might be the nigh impossibility of a clone defecting. Was he a commando?

Anyways, in one of the Clone Wars books a Clone Commando wrestled with breaking orders for quite awhile, eventually breaking them, under the impression that he was the first to do so.

Ronen Tal-Ravis
30 May 2005, 06:30 AM
Well, conditioning can always be a little flawed... Who knows, an energy-failure when he watched the "Why Palpi is a nice guy and has to be listened to at all times"-video...

I think for the sake of a good story, some things like that may be bend.

Faraer
4 June 2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by PneumaZ
Hmmm, its not any of those. I may be thinking of the wrong Mag. I have a lot of Star Wars Themed Mags at the house. I will go through them and find exactly which one it is and what page it is on so you can reference it.'Preciate it if you could.

Slave_1
12 June 2005, 10:31 PM
WOW!
I never would have thought a simple question would lead to all of this! I must say that i am impressed with the knowladge of the SW universe that has been presented. What I ended up doing, rather than create a stormy that was old and withered, was to create a new template. So here goes:

Clone Bounty Hunter
DEX 4D+1
Blaster,Dodge,Grenade,Melee Combat,Melee Parry,Vehicle Blasters
KNO 2D
Intimidation,Law Enforcement,Planetary Systems,Street Wise,Survival
MEC 3D
Astrogation,Jet Pack Op.,Repulsorlift Op.,Sensors,Space Transports, Starship Gunnery,Starship Shields,Swoop Op.
PER 2D+2
Bargain,Con,Forgery,Hide,Persuasion,Search,Sneak
STR 3D
Brawling,Climbing/Jumping,Lifting,Staminia,Swimming
TEC 2D
Armor Repair,Blasster Repair,Demoitions,First Aid,Security,Starship Repair

Clone Merc
DEX 3D+2
Blaster,Brawling Parry,Dodge,Grendae,Melee Combat,Melee Parry,Vehicle Blasters
KNO 2D
Alien Species,Languages,Planetary Systems,Streetwise,Survival
MEC 3D
Beast Riding,Ground Veh. Op.,Repulsorlift Op,Starship Gunnery,Walker Op.
PER 3D
Command,Con,Gambling,Hise,Search,Sneak
STR 3D
Brawling,Climbing/Jumping,Staminia,Swimming
TEC 2D+1
Comp Prog/Repair,Demolitions,First Aid,Security

Both:
Move: 11
Not Force Sensitive

Special Abilities:
Lowlight Vision: These clones can see twice as far in dim light, such as moonlight or underwater. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Story Factors:
Clone! Youíre a clone. People generally donít like clones. They both fear and hate you when they find out what you are.
Cloning Error: Youíre a mistake. You were created as part of a military project, and where cast aside by your creators. They tried to kill you, but you managed to escape. Now youíre a (Bounty hunter or Merc). Itís not like there is a lot of work for a failed at attempt at a super soldier now is there?
Appearance: You look 100% human, almost. In there attempt to give you traits of other species, such as the lowlight vision, your (Skin, Eye, Hair, Facial Fetures, Choose at least two(2)) has changed from the norm.

Equipment:
Bounty Hunter:
1 Light Repeating Blaster, 2 Blaster Pistols, 2 Med Packs, Protective Vest, Protective Helmet, Knife, 50 NR Credits

Merc:
1 Blaster Rifle, 1 Heavy Blaster Pistol, 4 Grenades, Body Armor(+1D Energy, +2D Physical, -1D Dex), 50 Credits (Local to system where player starts at creation)

The basic idea is that the cloners on Kamino can not be the only one who have endevored to make a super soldier, and even if they are, mistakes are bound to be made in the devopment phase. Mot of these 'mistakes' are quietly elliminated. But, on occasion, some break out and try to survive as best they can in the universe.