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Ronen Tal-Ravis
18 June 2005, 03:59 PM
I am wondering, especially since we know how Palpi got into office, why people seem to hate him at the end of ROTJ - where we see his stature getting thrown over by the crowd. What did he do that changed him from being the cheered at and applauded rescueer of civilization and order and security to a man that is hated? I could hardly think of anything in the movies - at least that gets public. alderaan's fate is unknown, nobody knows that Palpi is a Sith... On the other hand at least the military knows that Vader is a Lord...

boccelounge
18 June 2005, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
I am wondering, especially since we know how Palpi got into office, why people seem to hate him at the end of ROTJ - where we see his stature getting thrown over by the crowd. What did he do that changed him from being the cheered at and applauded rescueer of civilization and order and security to a man that is hated? I could hardly think of anything in the movies - at least that gets public. alderaan's fate is unknown, nobody knows that Palpi is a Sith... On the other hand at least the military knows that Vader is a Lord...

What makes him "officially" evil? I'd say "Lucasfilm, Ltd." ;)

But seriously:

I'd say it's clear that despite the "thunderous applause" at his "declaration of Empire," even at that point there are a lot of people who see past his manipulations and lies, and realize the dangers and evil inherent in this move toward autocracy. They're a distinct minority at that point, but their numbers grow constantly.

After that, I think it's easy to fill in the blanks: during a time of perceived "crisis," citizens are often willing to give up democratic freedoms in exchange for "strong leadership." But when the crisis has abated, a more objective and sober view takes hold, and the citizenry sees the autocrat for what he is: a violent, evil, self-serving tyrant.

Adding to that, it's likely that Alderaan was only the largest of the atrocities of Palpatine's "New Order." We can imagine that between Episodes III and IV, there are all sorts of attacks on life, liberty, and happiness throughout the Empire. And then a cycle of resistance and reaction takes hold: every atrocity breeds rebellion, and every act of rebellion makes Palpatine crack down even harder, and the resentment against his rule grows...

(Coincidentally, I have high hopes that we'll see exactly this sort of thing in the proposed television series.)

By the time of Endor, I'd posit, the Emperor was almost universally (well, "galactically") reviled, and the Alliance had gained enough legitimacy to be seen as a viable alternative. So, when the chance to overthrow the Empire came, the people were ready.



And "whew!": I got through this response without making any snide references to current US politics (well, except this one. ;) )

Corr Terek
18 June 2005, 04:59 PM
Where is the fate of Alderaan "unknown"? I'd think that if a large planet like Alderaan just suddenly disappeared, people would begin to wonder. Doubtless, that alone would make a lot of people think.

And thinking of real-life politics, we can point to many, many dictators who were cheered when they came to power, but by the end of their reign were hated. Lenin comes to mind, and Hitler, Mussolini...the list goes on.

boccelounge
18 June 2005, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Corr Terek
Where is the fate of Alderaan "unknown"? I'd think that if a large planet like Alderaan just suddenly disappeared, people would begin to wonder. Doubtless, that alone would make a lot of people think.

I can't speak for Ronen Tal-Ravis, but I took this to refer to the theory that the Empire might have tried to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Alliance. This has, of course, been debated in other threads; for the purpose of this discussion, I don't think it matters-- even if some people don't know that the Empire's to blame for Alderaan, there are surely countless other "local" atrocities that would get them riled up against Palpatine.

Ronin
18 June 2005, 05:55 PM
IIRC the Empire did originally try to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebellion...but the story fell apart and they had to come up with another story (Alderaan was destroyed because it was a rebel safehaven, or something).
I'm sorry that I don't remembe the specifics of each story...but I do remember that there are two.

Just going by the films, I'd agree that as the years went on, people started to realise that the Empire was bad, and all the military and security wasn't necessary.

If you take into account the EU (or even just some of it) then there's the suppression of alien species, the New Order's favouritism of humans, COMPNOR, alien slavery, etc.

BrianDavion
18 June 2005, 06:13 PM
trying to pin the destruction of alderran on the rebellion is rediculas. Alderran was blown up by the death star as an example.

the empire initally trumpted "HEY LOOK AT THIS! DO AS YOU'RE TOLD OR WE DO THIS TO YOU"

furthermore at the same time the senate was disbanded. IMHO the disbanding of the senate was the final straw for many, it ended the illusion that the empire was in any way shape of form for the people

boccelounge
19 June 2005, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Ronin
IIRC the Empire did originally try to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebellion...

Originally posted by BrianDavion
trying to pin the destruction of alderran on the rebellion is rediculas...

Yes... but as I said, this has been exhaustively debated elsewhere, and isn't really germane to this thread-- with or without Alderaan, the Emperor must've been seen as a pretty rotten guy if so many people were so ready to rejoice his downfall in Episode VI.

Right?

Faraer
19 June 2005, 10:53 AM
Look at Darth Sidious: a black hole of absolute evil, who cares only for his own power and would subjugate the cosmos to his unnatural will. Neither freedom, nor safety, nor hope, nor breath would long survive in the Empire of the Sith under the opaque shadow of the dark side.

That dystopia is what the galaxy was like when the Sith ruled it before they were defeated a thousand years before the films and the Republic restored. Palpatine doesn't get there: it takes him 19 years to finish the Death Star and disband the Senate, and it would take decades more for his rule of terror to be established. Even so, I don't think the EU has come close to taking seriously how bleakly, mythologically terrible slave-life is, or was becoming, under Imperial rule.

Just as the Jedi are a heightened, exaggerated fictional form of heroism, so the Empire is a worse, more evil and more hopeless, form of the tyranny exhibited less completely by historical dictatorships. It is the Evil Empire -- what Philip Dick called the Black Iron Prison in VALIS: just authority perverted to the service of unlimited, unnatural black-hole greed. It is everything that's wrong, writ large at the level of society -- and when it's destroyed, when the cosmos is reactualized by the hero's redemption, you bet the universe is gonna cheer.

boccelounge
19 June 2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Faraer
Darth Sidious: a black hole of absolute evil, who cares only for his own power and would subjugate the cosmos to his unnatural will. Neither freedom, nor safety, nor hope, nor breath would long survive in the Empire of the Sith under the opaque shadow of the dark side.

Wow! Nicely said! This is purple prose worthy of "opening scrawl" text! I might have to write a new campaign episode just to make use of this (with your permission)... ;)

And the rest of the post was good too...

Lord Kjeran
20 June 2005, 12:01 PM
Chello!


Originally posted by boccelounge
[B]

What makes him "officially" evil? I'd say "Lucasfilm, Ltd." ;)



Naw, it's because Obi Wan says, "But, Anakin, Palpatine is EVIL!"

;)

Tony

FlipDog 2000
20 June 2005, 06:05 PM
"But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

Ug..still the worst line ever...

Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.

Fingon
20 June 2005, 06:33 PM
No, I think "Are you an angel" still takes tha cake...

Anyway, Palpi is evil for three reaons:

He is a Sith
He is a hearless and powerhungry tyrant
He is used as a plot device

boccelounge
20 June 2005, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by FlipDog 2000
"But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

Ug..still the worst line ever...

Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.

Well, the line does serve its purpose: showing us just how twisted and just plain wrong Anakin's views have become. Palpatine's insidious (get it?) manipulations and Anakin's own naivete/arrogance have profoundly warped his views of reality.

And, despite his later "certain point of view" relativism, Obi-Wan shows his true nobility by holding fast to certain absolute truths. Enslavement and persecution aren't "corruption"-- they're evil!

These movies aren't that hard to figure out-- the Bad Guys are truly and deeply Evil, period.

wolverine
23 June 2005, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by FlipDog 2000
"But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

Ug..still the worst line ever...

Although, it is true. Like my other thread...the only thing that makes the Emperor or the Empire evil is the point of view that the Rebellion has. Yeah, they enslaved races and persecuted less wealthy systems...but they are just like other corrupted governments.

Actually, i thought that was one of his best lines in the film..

Ronen Tal-Ravis
23 June 2005, 04:41 AM
But what made public opinion change from applauding him when he proclaimed the Enmpire and then suddenly they hate him.

Faraer
23 June 2005, 07:55 AM
At the point at which the Empire is declared, the citizens of the Republic are in a state of abject fear for their lives and those of their loved ones, and for the state of the Republic and civilization itself -- they're made to think the Republic is on the brink of defeat, a defeat that would bring universal chaos and mass slaughter. Palpatine, even as he incrementally swells his own power at the expense of the Senate and the Jedi, is a principled figurehead who represents, along with Anakin Skywalker the Jedi 'poster boy', the bulwark against the dark -- even as his abuses are too blatant to fool everyone. So he declares the end of the war and the start of the Empire and the mass reaction is one of gigantic relief tinged with apprehension -- which turns to despair and terror as the nature of the new Empire, barely restrained by the emasculated Senate, becomes clear. The acclaim in the Senate chamber doesn't represent real feelings at all, but the climate of the largely corrupt Senate in which half the Senators have been bought, directly or indirectly, by the New Order and the other half clap and cheer because their careers and lives depend on not being identified as 'traitors' by the surveillance cams.

boccelounge
23 June 2005, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Faraer
The acclaim in the Senate chamber doesn't represent real feelings at all, but the climate of the largely corrupt Senate in which half the Senators have been bought, directly or indirectly, by the New Order and the other half clap and cheer because their careers and lives depend on not being identified as 'traitors' by the surveillance cams.

I entirely agree-- except that I think it's possible some of the "thunderous applause" for the new Emperor might have been more "genuine" than you allow. Misguided and foolish, yes, but perhaps genuine.

I just mention it because it's interesting to imagine that Palpatine has spent 12 (or so) years as Chancellor befriending, courting, bullying, and otherwise manipulating hundreds or even thousands of other Senators to support him.

This is alluded to at several times, but not shown (in the films). Obi-Wan, always the voice of narrative insight, makes some reference to it early in AotC: "Palpatine's a politician... I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators."

So, not to argue the minutiae, but while I generally agree with you, I think we can surmise that Palpatine has duped some people into believing that he is actually their "friend." And that, to me, just makes his ascension to Emperor all the more chilling.

Faraer
23 June 2005, 09:08 AM
I'm sure there are Senators caught up in the relief that it's all over, for their own sake or the galaxy's, some who genuinely believe Palpatine's rhetoric of security, who are enthusiastic at developments they think will serve their greed, some who are pawns too stupid to understand what's happening, or so weak they're swayed by Palpatine's perhaps subtly Force-augmented personal magnetism. And Palpatine, helped by his close advisers, has anticipated and manipulated these reactions and many more, perhaps almost of each individual Senator.

Episode II Visual Dictionary: "Palpatine has revived the old tradition of appearing before the masses to accept their applause and verbal support." Labyrinth of Evil mentions something similar. It's a set-up: their individual feelings, whatever they are, have been made irrelevant to this ritual of patriotic support. You're either with us or against us. And this turns back, in the HoloNet propaganda, to popular acclaim, and who's to say different?

The Nuremberg rallies are an obvious reference point.

BrianDavion
23 June 2005, 07:33 PM
time?

with time his rule would grow more and more despotic and people would eventually hate it. further more everyone proably didn't hate him, but on a major planet there'd certinly eb eneugh to have sizeable groups dancing in the street

Sithspawn
24 June 2005, 12:13 AM
Is the Emperor evil?

Hollowed out volcano lair? Mustafa.
Over elaberate plans? Orchestrating the Clone Wars.
Henchmen? Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku.
Inept Guards? Stormtroopers.
Boasting? "Soon you will be one of us."

Now if he only had some sharks with laser beams attatched to their heads... :D

boccelounge
24 June 2005, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Sithspawn
Is the Emperor evil?

Hollowed out volcano lair? Mustafa.
Over elaberate plans? Orchestrating the Clone Wars.
Henchmen? Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku.
Inept Guards? Stormtroopers.
Boasting? "Soon you will be one of us."

Now if he only had some sharks with laser beams attatched to their heads... :D

Yeah! I mean, he didn't go through six years of Evil Despot College just to... ehh.. never mind...

But I do think I'll throw in some "laser-beam-equipped" critters the next time my players infiltrate an enemy base. Thanks!

wolverine
24 June 2005, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by boccelounge


I entirely agree-- except that I think it's possible some of the "thunderous applause" for the new Emperor might have been more "genuine" than you allow. Misguided and foolish, yes, but perhaps genuine.

I just mention it because it's interesting to imagine that Palpatine has spent 12 (or so) years as Chancellor befriending, courting, bullying, and otherwise manipulating hundreds or even thousands of other Senators to support him.

This is alluded to at several times, but not shown (in the films). Obi-Wan, always the voice of narrative insight, makes some reference to it early in AotC: "Palpatine's a politician... I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators."

So, not to argue the minutiae, but while I generally agree with you, I think we can surmise that Palpatine has duped some people into believing that he is actually their "friend." And that, to me, just makes his ascension to Emperor all the more chilling.

Actually, i feel that many of those senators who were applauding, KNEW (or thought) what he was doing, and agreed with it (hoping to get power, or already promised it). Others were doing it to show that they too supported palp. Others still, did it so as to not look like they disagreed.

Vanger Chevane
27 June 2005, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by wolverine


Actually, i feel that many of those senators who were applauding, KNEW (or thought) what he was doing, and agreed with it (hoping to get power, or already promised it). Others were doing it to show that they too supported palp. Others still, did it so as to not look like they disagreed.
Of course. If you look like a dissenter, the Dictator may see you as an enemy/rival and the Secret Police will take you away.

Purges tend to be a part of any grab for absolute power. Almost any pol who's used to their plush & privileged lifestyle is likely to be very averse to getting a One-Way Ticket to Kessel. ;)

Night who says ni
8 July 2005, 05:48 PM
"But from my point of view...the Jedi are evil..."

Actually, i thought that was one of his best lines in the film..

No way "Only a Sith Deals in Absolutes" is defenatly the best
anyways...

You also have to remember that some strongly imperial occupied planets was completely left out on anything really going on, if u look while roage squadron is at corucaunt the museum with the momorial to Palpie and how in the Maw instalation the designer of all the super weapons such as the Death Star was told things like using mining perposes.

The point is the Emporer lied A LOT

Zeb
20 July 2005, 01:24 AM
Hmm, I thinkl he was using his Sith powers for the chear. Note Padame and Organa were not afected. Let me see. Insl;aved all the known worlds. Blew up Aldarant. Manpulated Vader. Used his fears to turn him. Ordered children killed. Made Cloans that killed peiopl;e. Ke[ptncloning for him self. Tried to kill the last Jedi. Had them in mast sdlautered. imprisoned the known worlds. Left the Gugans alive. He killed Mace and left Jar Jar alive that's just pure evil. ;) :D Tried to steal cload city. Had Jawas slaughtered. Mentaly aboused Darth Maul. And was goinmg to blow up more planets with the secound death star. Thanx for your time.

stoic_75
4 August 2005, 03:37 PM
Howabout using a dubious crisis to perpetrate a war? The purpose of this war is to gain unlimited emergency powers and further his own political agenda. Or howabout using lies to manipulate people and incite hate and mistrust regarding certain minority groups? I'd say that is officially evil.



Originally posted by Ronen Tal-Ravis
I am wondering, especially since we know how Palpi got into office, why people seem to hate him at the end of ROTJ - where we see his stature getting thrown over by the crowd. What did he do that changed him from being the cheered at and applauded rescueer of civilization and order and security to a man that is hated? I could hardly think of anything in the movies - at least that gets public. alderaan's fate is unknown, nobody knows that Palpi is a Sith... On the other hand at least the military knows that Vader is a Lord...

boccelounge
4 August 2005, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by stoic_75
Howabout using a dubious crisis to perpetrate a war? The purpose of this war is to gain unlimited emergency powers and further his own political agenda. Or howabout using lies to manipulate people and incite hate and mistrust regarding certain minority groups? I'd say that is officially evil.

Hey! I thought we wern't supposed to talk about real-world political parties on the HoloNet...

Oh. I see. You're talking about Palpatine. I get it. For a second I thought you meant... ah... never mind. :)

Then yes, any politician that did all those things would be very very very evil indeed. And probably get re-elected.



;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

chiefcaptin
4 August 2005, 04:25 PM
Heres some

- Dressing in those cruddy black robes :)
- Making his advisers dress in cruddy looking crud :D
- Enslaving Wookies, Mon Calimari, Cute little animals (don't have the book with me but I know he did enslave some of them), and countless other species
- Working humans with bad immune systems to the point where they look more like things from hell (don't have the book again)
- Having his lakeys take all the blame for being evil

Just listing a few...