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boccelounge
18 October 2005, 05:03 PM
When I needed enlisted ranks for an ongoing SW Rebellion-era campaign, I discovered there really isn't much background available. There are lots of references for officers, including the rank badge system for this site, but little for enlisted troops. So had to do it myself.

I'd appreciate input and comment. I'll lay out what I came up with and how I came up with it.

I started with the "Rebel Alliance Insignia" section of Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentaries:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

(Yeah yeah, I know Saxton is not exactly loved by all, but for this purpose, his stuff was useful. No anti-SWTC flames, please. ;) )

From here I got some visual references from the Hoth Rebel uniforms, and set the basic rank-badge principles behind my design:

1. First, all Rebel badges are based on four small rectangles, arrayed horizontally, and worn over the left breast. I call them "pips." For reference, here's the badge I'm talking about, as worn by some unnamed Rebel Officer:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/boccelounge/hothsolo_arrow_02.jpg

2. Officers have blue and red pips; enlisted have grey and red.

3. No one seems to have monchrome badges (all-red, all-grey, or all-blue).

4. The "value" of the badges seem to go from left-to-right, just like English writing.

Using these assumptions, I simply gave blue a value of 2, red a value of 1, and grey pips a value of zero. Then I arrayed them as if they badges represented 4-digit numerals. That gives us the following values for enlisted (grey/red) badges:

0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
0101
0110
0111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111

(Note: Solo's badge, shown above, would have a value of 2122. Whatever that means... )

Throwing out 0000 and 1111, we have 14 ranks.

Now, for the real deal. I used a combination of US Army and US Marine ranks, with slight revisions to fit my vision of the Alliance rank structure. I drew up this master list:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/boccelounge/enlisted_ALL_titles_03.jpg


The "E-" codes are reference to real-world US military pay grades; I included them here to show equivalent ranks. In my system, there are two tracks: command and specialist. At grade E-6, for example, you have Staff Sergeant (command) and Gunnery Sergeant (specialist). In my campaigns, I usually require characters to have some "command" experience (as shown by skills or classes) to take the command track; other characters can advance along the "specialist" track by demonstrating ability in their chosen fields.

This is intended for use with both Alliance Sector Forces and Special Forces. I use the system found in the WEG supplements (and elsewhere), of having all Rebel infantry units split between the various Sector Commands (Sector Forces), and a small force that's attached directly to Alliance High Comand (Special Forces). Also note, I don't use "Special Forces" to mean "Special Ops." They're just "special" because they aren't permanently assigned to a Sector/Theatre, as most Rebel infantry is. I also assume that the two other major branches, Fighter Command and Navy, would use different rank names. Maybe someday I'll work on those too...


So, what do we think about this?

djas_puhr
18 October 2005, 06:16 PM
Nice work, I really think this helps ID what 'Spades' is. Thanks for this, and keep up the good work. Can't wait to see/read the next installment in ONE.

Vanger Chevane
18 October 2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by boccelounge
2. Officers have blue and red pips; enlisted have grey and red.

3. No one seems to have monchrome badges (all-red, all-grey, or all-blue).

4. The "value" of the badges seem to go from left-to-right, just like English writing.

Using these assumptions, I simply gave blue a value of 2, red a value of 1, and grey pips a value of zero. Then I arrayed them as if they badges represented 4-digit numerals. That gives us the following values for enlisted (grey/red) badges:

0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
0101
0110
0111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111

(Note: Solo's badge, shown above, would have a value of 2122. Whatever that means... )

Throwing out 0000 and 1111, we have 14 ranks.

Now, for the real deal. I used a combination of US Army and US Marine ranks, with slight revisions to fit my vision of the Alliance rank structure. I drew up this master list:


So, what do we think about this?
We think you erred. Solo's rank eqautes to either 0100 or 1011 on the Officer's Scale depending on the red/blue values. Placing him at O-4 or O-11.

Using Naval officer ranks (SW is pretty consistent with US/UK on this excepting the odd "Commander" Convarion in X-Wing: Bacta War), Solo rates out as Lieutenant Commander (Major for groundpounders) or Commander in Chief (The US has had only one O-11 in it's entire history, 5-star General Douglas MacArthur during WW2).

Since there's no way Solo'd outrank even Adm. Ackbar, even tho he's called Captain (which is the proper way to address the commander of a ship) his actual rank/rating is a Lt Cmdr.


Now SW Rebel Officer Ranks tend to be a 5-step system. Navy - Ens, Lt, Cmdr, Capt, Adm. Starfighter Command - FltOff, Lt, Capt, Cmdr, Gen. Army - Lt, Capt, Maj, Col, Gen.

If we allow 0000 (4 red blocks) to be the most junior Offcer, that places Solo at a regular Ship Capatin's rank. Otherwise his rank is Cmdr, equivalent to a Wing Commander's, but the Title when addressing him remains Captain as he is in charge of a ship.


Later NR tends to confuse things by adding Major to Starfighter Command (when Wedge accepts promotion to General and his 5th Rank Pip) as well as apparently either phasing out Cmdr or making it roughly equivalent to Col.

Naturally, YMMV. ;)

boccelounge
18 October 2005, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
We think you erred. Solo's rank eqautes to either 0100 or 1011 on the Officer's Scale depending on the red/blue values. Placing him at O-4 or O-11.
Thanks for the feedback, djas and Vanger. I did make a mistake; by my calculations, Solo's badge would be 1211, not 2122. Note what I typed:


Originally posted by boccelounge
Using these assumptions, I simply gave blue a value of 2, red a value of 1, and grey pips a value of zero. Then I arrayed them as if they badges represented 4-digit numerals... Solo's badge, shown above, would have a value of 2122.
It should be 1211, given the values I was arbitrarily using. I think I wrote that "2122" bit while eating Szechuan Chicken... got my reds and blues confused. ;)

To put it more plainly, if we assume that blue has a higher value than red, Solo's badge is the 5th of 16 possible Officer ranks, nestled between 1122 and 1212. And now I've confused things even more...




Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
Using Naval officer ranks (SW is pretty consistent with US/UK on this excepting the odd "Commander" Convarion in X-Wing: Bacta War), Solo rates out as Lieutenant Commander (Major for groundpounders) or Commander in Chief (The US has had only one O-11 in it's entire history, 5-star General Douglas MacArthur during WW2)... Naturally, YMMV. ;)
Thanks for the officer info, but the real point of my post is Enlisted ranks. The officer stuff is, as you point out, pretty well-established, and in my experience easy to find references for.

I hadn't mean to confuse the issue with the Solo example. Just meant to use his picture as an example of translating the 4-square, binary color scheme into a 4-digit number.

But... since we're talking officer ranks... O-11 traces it origins to "General of the Army" which was created for Ulysses S. Grant. 12 men have held the equivalent rank-- 4 Navy, 1 Air Force, 7 Army. The "Five-Star" designation was created in 1944; I don't think the pay-grade "O-11" was created until the late 50's Pentagon re-org... but don't quote me on that. ;)




Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
Later NR tends to confuse things by adding Major to Starfighter Command (when Wedge accepts promotion to General and his 5th Rank Pip) as well as apparently either phasing out Cmdr or making it roughly equivalent to Col.
By "fifth pip," I think you refer to what some call the "Alderaanian-style" officer badges. These are the kind used in the user profiles for this website. I'm not talking about those badges-- I should have made a clearer distinction: I'm talking about the rectangular, horizontal badges worn on the left breast, not the round-pip badges officers wear on the right. It seems (according to the Hoth costuming) that officers wear both styles, while enlisted wear only the left-side bar.

So I take the reference to Wedge's "fifth pip" means his badge looks like, well, yours or mine, with an extra dot. From all available evidence, the rectangular bar is always 4 boxes, no more, no less.

Skywalker
21 October 2005, 01:33 PM
Using Naval officer ranks (SW is pretty consistent with US/UK on this excepting the odd "Commander" Convarion in X-Wing: Bacta War), Solo rates out as Lieutenant Commander (Major for groundpounders) or Commander in Chief (The US has had only one O-11 in it's entire history, 5-star General Douglas MacArthur during WW2).

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Eisenhower was 5 star in WW2. I'm just sayin....(I might be wrong, I'll have to check)

Vanger Chevane
21 October 2005, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Skywalker


Actually, I'm pretty sure that Eisenhower was 5 star in WW2. I'm just sayin....(I might be wrong, I'll have to check)
Ike only had 4, appropriate to a Theater Commander.

Brigadier General (Brigadier UK, O-7) - That one star sez you run a Brigade.
Major General (O-8) - Two stars, you command a Division.
Lieutenant General (O-9) - Three Stars, Corps (/Regiment?) Commander.
General (O-10) - Four Stars, you command an entire Army/Theater.
Commander-in-Chief (O-11) - Those 5 little stars tells ppl you run The Whole Frickin Show...Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines at all levels jump when you say so unless the President/Congress directly and explicitly instruct otherwise.

boccelounge
21 October 2005, 02:03 PM
Sorry, Vanger... there were several 5-Star Generals in the Army, during and after WWII. Here are the names, and the dates they got the 5-star.

George C. Marshall 16 December 1944
Douglas MacArthur 18 December 1944
Dwight D. Eisenhower 20 December 1944
Henry H. Arnold 21 December 1944
Omar Bradley 20 September 1950


And 5-star does NOT mean "Commander-in-Chief." That title has always been reserved solely for the President, as per Article One of the Constitiution. ;)

We should also point out that the 5-star rank does NOT confer an officer authority over multiple branches of service. The above list is just Army; the Navy had its own 5-stars.

The 5-star/O-11 rank is strictly for times of formal war (i.e. Congressionally-declared); no one has held the rank since Bradley.

There are some decent refences to all of this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_of_the_Army_%28USA%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._military_leaders_by_rank


Not sure how any of this helps me figure Alliance enlisted ranks... but it sure is good conversation. ;)


EDIT: And here's what the Army itself has to say on the 5-Star rank:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/FAQ-5star.htm

Vanger Chevane
24 October 2005, 03:36 PM
Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, regardless of how unreliable/unfounded their info is, so I regard it as an unofficial & unreliable source to be consulted only when completely desperate.

Odd I've never seen any pictures of the above sporting that 5th star except MacArthur, nor run across info they received it.

MacArthur did give orders to Adm. "Bull" Halsey & had them carried out as he did have one more star in the Pacific Theater.

boccelounge
24 October 2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, regardless of how unreliable/unfounded their info is, so I regard it as an unofficial & unreliable source to be consulted only when completely desperate.

:raised:

Well... be that as it may, the facts are the facts. I presented the Wikipedia link simply as a good reference point and because, in this case at least, the wiki articles are correct.

Unless... we think there's a massive worldwide conspiracy, and EVERY history book EVER written about WW2 is purposely lying about the 5-Stars.... ????


;)

djas_puhr
25 October 2005, 04:30 AM
Me being in the US Navy can list all four 5 Star Admirals:
Admiral William D. Leahy
Admiral Ernest J. King
Admiral Chester Nimitz
Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey
here (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ranks/officers/o-rank.html) is were I got my information regarding the Five Star Admirals.

Nimitz was equal rank to MacArthur and so was the rest of the Admirals. Just remember it was the Navy that transported the Army accross the Pacific and across the Atlantic. From that we have this great rivalry between the two services. The Army vs Navy football game is were we see how is the better service. Granted the Air Force also plays football, but they don't count.

The Army had four 5 Star Generals
George C. Marshall
Douglas MacArthur
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Omar N. Bradley
The Army Air Corps, aka Air Force, had only one 5 Star General
Henry H. Arnold
The Marine Corps doesn't have the rank O-11 or 5 Star General of the Marine Corps. I don't think that they ever will either.

I'm a history buff, my minor is in History. I also know were to look on the military web sites to find info about who held what ranks and the what not. If you ever need more info about the Navy feel free to drop me a line.

JoJohnJohansen
25 October 2005, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by boccelounge

From all available evidence, the rectangular bar is always 4 boxes, no more, no less.

'Four shall be the number of thine pips, and the number of the pips shall be four. Five shalt thou not have, neither have thou three, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Six is right out.' - Alliance Code of Courtesy and Conduct, 3rd Revised Edition

djas_puhr
25 October 2005, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by JoJohnJohansen


'Four shall be the number of thine pips, and the number of the pips shall be four. Five shalt thou not have, neither have thou three, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Six is right out.' - Alliance Code of Courtesy and Conduct, 3rd Revised Edition

LOL, that was awsome! Tears came to my eyes!

Sarge
25 October 2005, 10:05 AM
Djas, the Army Air Force 5 star was Henry "Hap" Arnold, not Omar Bradley. Bradley was Army.

boccelounge
25 October 2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Sarge
Djas, the Army Air Force 5 star was Henry "Hap" Arnold, not Omar Bradley. Bradley was Army.

Ah, give him a break... he's just a Navy man, after all. ;)


And *sigh*... I see that it's hopeless trying to get any dialogue going about the poor, ignored Alliance Enlisted man... it's all "General this" and "Admiral that"... ;)

djas_puhr
25 October 2005, 10:26 AM
:Shrugsshoulders:

I'm a squid first and formost! As for the *cough* chair force *cough* I mean Air Force, I'm sorry for the error will correct it.

...

Should be done now. My bad.

Vanger Chevane
25 October 2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by boccelounge


Ah, give him a break... he's just a Navy man, after all. ;)


And *sigh*... I see that it's hopeless trying to get any dialogue going about the poor, ignored Alliance Enlisted man... it's all "General this" and "Admiral that"... ;)
>BUZZ< Wrongo!

AFAIK there are 2 known examples of Enlisted Rank. Trooper seems to take the place of Private (Trooper 2nd Class Gatterweld, last "Acting Captain" of the Razor's Kiss) and I've seen Sergeant in a few novels (perhaps Corporal as well). Other than the 2-3 basic ones, I really haven't seen any real elaboration of ranks.

It'd be interesting to see a workup if Navy & Army ranks followed the same 5-step progression Officers do.

Lokar
27 October 2005, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, regardless of how unreliable/unfounded their info is, so I regard it as an unofficial & unreliable source to be consulted only when completely desperate.

Odd I've never seen any pictures of the above sporting that 5th star except MacArthur, nor run across info they received it.

MacArthur did give orders to Adm. "Bull" Halsey & had them carried out as he did have one more star in the Pacific Theater.

Here's another source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/FAQ-5star.htm Trust me there have been several generals who recieved a fifth star but only one held the rank of Field Marshal and was MacAruther of the Philippeans Army and he cofered that rank upon himself.

As for the second point:

That's because MacAruther was a theater Commander of the South West Pacific area, not because he held fifth star. Ike gave orders to the naval guys in Europe. Nitmiz commanded the Centeral Pacific area (aka where almost all the WW2 Marine movies take place) and would have had command of any army units assigned to it.

LordSei
27 October 2005, 02:20 PM
First off nice job!
what about rebel co ranks?Or imperial ranks your info seems to accurate so it'd be awesome to have those too.

Kyle Pantrakahs
18 November 2005, 02:57 PM
AFAIK Imperial rankings should be about the same for officers.

Not sure about enlisted, though. That's covered mostly by stormies, who do have differing ranks, but no officers of their own.

Hmm, I wonder what Imperial ranking would be like for non-stormie Imps like the black-helmeted fleet troopers we see on the DS and Star Destroyers. :?

Treefrog
27 November 2005, 09:54 PM
AFAIK, the last 5-star that the Navy and the Army each had was Nimitz for the Navy, and MacArthur for the Army, but I may be wrong about that.

IIRC, other branches would still follow the orders of the most senior officer present, that is why Gen. MacArthur and Eisenhower would be able to give orders to Naval and Marine personnel.

Uron Teff
28 November 2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by boccelounge
And *sigh*... I see that it's hopeless trying to get any dialogue going about the poor, ignored Alliance Enlisted man... it's all "General this" and "Admiral that"... ;)

Well I think that there are far to less stories told about the Enlisted Soldiers in the Star Wars Universe. It's cool to read about how this General did that with those ships while he had a cold.
And what about the "Unknown Soldier..."?

*sings*
It's all over;
for the Unknown Soldier..
*stops singing*

Anyway... booce (I hope I'm not repeating myself) I love your work on the NCOs.


P.S.: I think it's getting boring to read about all the Generals and Commanders and Admirals and Lieutenants in the books... nonetheless every fighting action (in which main characters are involved) is Jedi Battle and Dog Fights. And as we all know Pilots are COs...:(

Vanger Chevane
28 November 2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Uron Teff


Well I think that there are far to less stories told about the Enlisted Soldiers in the Star Wars Universe. It's cool to read about how this General did that with those ships while he had a cold.
And what about the "Unknown Soldier..."?

*sings*
It's all over;
for the Unknown Soldier..
*stops singing*

Anyway... booce (I hope I'm not repeating myself) I love your work on the NCOs.


P.S.: I think it's getting boring to read about all the Generals and Commanders and Admirals and Lieutenants in the books... nonetheless every fighting action (in which main characters are involved) is Jedi Battle and Dog Fights. And as we all know Pilots are COs...:(
I agree. Enlisted make up the vast majority of any military, and it can't possibly function without them. I find it extremely bizarre that they're almost totally ignored by SW, especially in the EU.

As far as Pilots, given the technical difficulty involved and the relative rarity of true skill as well as the extreme hazards involved, Fighter Pilots tend to be officers as it'd be near-impossible to recruit or retain them on a Sergeant's Pay.

No point in spending the Thousands of Credits on training up a Starfighter Pilot if they all leave for a much better paycheck/conditions/etc. at the first to third possible opportunity. ;)

gmjabreson
30 November 2005, 06:01 AM
From the rebel alliance special forces guide, the ranks follow
trooper= private
senior trooper= pfc
corporal=same
sergeant=same
master sergeant=same
sergeant major=same
command sergeant major=same
I can't recall what the ranks equal in the Alliance's regular army, but figured this would help out, i know what the sf ranks are, did lots of special forces campaigns in the d6 system

Ardent
4 December 2005, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane

I agree. Enlisted make up the vast majority of any military, and it can't possibly function without them. I find it extremely bizarre that they're almost totally ignored by SW, especially in the EU.

As far as Pilots, given the technical difficulty involved and the relative rarity of true skill as well as the extreme hazards involved, Fighter Pilots tend to be officers as it'd be near-impossible to recruit or retain them on a Sergeant's Pay.

No point in spending the Thousands of Credits on training up a Starfighter Pilot if they all leave for a much better paycheck/conditions/etc. at the first to third possible opportunity. ;)
I figured I may as well bump this.

The reason you don't see a lot of stories about enlisted forces in the EU is that they'd fall in a very specific vein, and most enlisted men aren't heroic in the Star Wars sense. Or at least in the Star Wars universe.

In the real world military, Vanger they're dealing with the issue of rank (and pay) according to the skill involved in the job. Right now the enlisted force is sliding out from under the U.S. military for a variety of reasons, but the two most prominent are a) a desire not to be sent to the sandbox and b) a noticeable pay raise for most career fields outside of the military.

Some of the most technically proficient job fields have close to 80% discharge rates. But when you stop and think about it, why wouldn't a nuclear systems tech take a civilian offer for 200k a year over the military's 20k + housing? In fact, the military simply cannot hope to match the civilian sector, but they are looking at ways of making the fields more attractive (it's been decided that re-enlistment bonuses aren't going to hold on to highly-trained specialists any more), and one of the ones bouncing around is making those fields O-grade jobs. They're already in training for around 2 years, and most of the people who qualify for those fields have some college credit any way, so throwing in officer training for them isn't crazy.

And enlisted pilots have gone the way of the dodo more for organisational reasons than any need to pay them well. Believe me, a lot of pilots would continue to fly even if the military took their paycheck away from 'em. But the issue is you can't have an entire groundcrew under a...Flight Sergeant, for instance, can you? I mean, that groundcrew, per plane, is anywhere between 6 and 36 people. Plus the plane's crew itself, between 1 and 8 other people. That's why pilots are officers. ;)

Bram Corolev
13 November 2006, 06:21 AM
How about Navy enlisted ranks? What would the ranks be of guys working at the stations on the bridge of a capital ship?

Can anyone tell me what the duties of a Chief Petty Officer on a bridge would be?

wolverine
14 November 2006, 12:34 AM
Being a first class (one step behind chief) i can answer that..

A chief, is more of a manager/leader, than a doer, but he is also the technical expert for that area. SO for bridges, he would know the sensors, shields, navigation, comms and piloting spots, but would be more of the overseaer of everyone else.. Think of the chief of the boat position on a sub (like in crimson tide).. So i would say, high per, good comms, astrogation, shields, sensors, piloting, command, tactics and maybe even some persuasion/con to get those recaltrant NOBs to get to work...