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gmjabreson
4 November 2005, 04:03 AM
I know it all came from lucas himself, but what makes Leia a princess and Luke not a prince?

so many people said that there mother was a queen, true in some aspects. she was an elected queen when anakin met her, but when she gave birth she was a senator.

I temporized and said to them it was Organa that she got the title princess from, but see no royal connections in episodes 2 or 3 that support that hypothesis either.

So really, why is Leia a Princess and Luke not a Prince?

Salith
4 November 2005, 04:14 AM
Because of her adopted family, not her birth family.

gmjabreson
4 November 2005, 04:16 AM
good idea, but it never states that organa was royalty. He served in the senate, but i don't count that for anything. But even amidala had representatives to speak for her when she was queen of naboo.

Darth_Cassed
4 November 2005, 04:35 AM
No, it's true. Bail Organa was a senator, the Viceroy of Alderaan, and the Head of the Royal Family of Alderaan.

Such is the only explanation I can think of.

Garan
4 November 2005, 04:36 AM
Senator Bail Organa was the First Chairman and Viceroy of Alderaan, a hero of the Clone Wars, and the head of the Royal Family of Alderaan.
from the one and only SW DB

He is the head of the Royal Family of Alderaan. ;) Alderaan actually has a royal family, not a elected ruler who gets called king/queen like Naboo.

Darth Fierce
4 November 2005, 05:07 AM
Garan beat me to the punch, but I too was going to point out the fact that Padme wasn't "Queen" when Luke and Leia were born, thus they would of had no claim of being a prince or princess through her.

Darth Fierce :vader:

gmjabreson
4 November 2005, 05:10 AM
i know that, my point to all those that asked me this stupid question is that she was adopted by a royal family and luke was left with their aunt and uncle on that backwater planet.

lots of people i worked with just couldn't get the point.

Fingon
4 November 2005, 01:59 PM
Also note that her name is Leia Organa, not Skywalker.

Lucas has a knack for weird names.

PneumaZ
4 November 2005, 02:21 PM
Yeah, you want a really fun brain twist. A lot of SW naysayers in my area love to point out it is impossible for Leia to remember her mother (as she states she does in Ep6). They use the line luke says as backing:" Do you remember your mother? Your realy mother?" They assume her response is about Padme.

My rebuttal at that point is twofold. Firstly, at this point she has not found out that Vader is her father as well so she has no reason to doubt who her birthparents are. Secondly, if i remember my ghostly star wars trivia, Bails wife (the woman Leia would have known as Mom) died when Leia was still very young (6 or less I believe). And the majority of her years leading upto Ep4 she was raised by Bail and a female Caretaker. I always contend that leia's statement on her 'real mother' is to Bails wife and not padme.

But then of course that doesnt explain the syntax of Luke's line about 'her real mother'. I again defer to my SW lore. I believe in much older EU Leia refers to her Caretaker as a mother role and that Luke and Han knew about this woman who raised her for the majority of her life. So when he is referring to her real mother he again is referring back to the woman before the caretaker, not Padme. Now granted he doesnt know that they arent the same person so its his bad, to a point. But he had no evidence to contend that Bails wife wasnt their birth mother.

And even in the worst case scenario, perhaps Leia at birth was so enveloped in the force that she permanently imprinted all of Padme's traits into her subconcious.

I dunno. Something to mull considering we are talking about Leia's heritage. Fun fun.

gmjabreson
4 November 2005, 04:54 PM
That is a good point, that luke goofed on that.
It almost makes that line in episode six that her mother was sad, which could have easily meant that the story line was changed from originally Padme living through the child birth?
Unfortunately the only one who knows the answer to that, i think we all know who, probably wouldn't answer that question. And why should he. The way episode 3 ends with Padme's death, makes Anakin's fall to the darkside "more complete."
And thankfully it bashes a part of the black fleet crisis i didn't agree with, that leia would be able to see their mother but Luke was not because of the way he uses the force and can't grasp "the current". Obviously we know that their mother died.

Grimace
4 November 2005, 09:52 PM
I just attribute the whole "mother" line to be an example of Lucas not watching his own *%@! movies before he made the prequels, and rewriting things however he darn well wanted. Obviously...his choice, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

PsychoInfiltrator
5 November 2005, 12:15 PM
AFAIK, the longest name/title that Leie has ever held at some time in her life is:

Chief of State Leia Organa Skywalker-Solo, Former Princess of Alderaan.

Ya know, George has this lack of new name ability: Wedge Antilles, Bail Antilles. Bail Antilles, Bail Organa. Plus the whole Dooku/daughter thing.

Ris
7 November 2005, 07:59 AM
According to Episode 3 Visual Dictionary, The ruler of Aldaraan, and Bail Organa's wife, is Queen Breha Antilles-Organa. (The reference also mentions Capt. Raymus Antilles is one of her kinsmen.) Furthermore, the RotS novelization refers to Bail (in the scene where he brings Leia to Aldaraan) as the Prince-Consort of Aldaraan--that is, as the spouse of the ruler. Therefore, Bail is not the head of the Royal family during the prequel era.
Now if Breha died when Leia was young--which seems to be the case--then Bail would be regent for Leia, who would be a Princess by right of being Queen Breha's (adopted) daughter. Viceroy would be an appropriate title, since it is used for someone who rules in the name of a sovereign.
As for who she means by "real mother," it is pretty clear to me now that she is refering to Breha of Aldaraan. As an adult adopted as an infant (and informed early on of that fact), I can tell you that typically, to someone adopted at such a young age, even if s/he is aware of the adoption, the "real mother" (or "real father" of course) is the one who raised that child.**
Now this is a change from my original theory. Before it became "common rumor" that Padme wouldn't survive Ep. 3, I figured that Bail might have given Padme, as well as Leia, sanctuary in his home, but that she only lived a few more years--therefore making it possible that Leia would have some memory of her.

___
**Please note that this isn't meant to dis birth parents--I have way too much respect for those who gave me life. Nor is it intended to imply there can't/shouldn't be any affection for birth parents, especially if it's an open adoption--mine wasn't--or contact is made later in life. This is just a first-hand description of a common mindset amongst adoptees.

Tao
7 November 2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
Ya know, George has this lack of new name ability: Wedge Antilles, Bail Antilles. Bail Antilles, Bail Organa. Plus the whole Dooku/daughter thing.
Antilles is a common last name. Bail is a title, not a name.

PneumaZ
7 November 2005, 09:10 AM
Oh is it now? I had no idea!?! I thought bail was just that worlds 'bob'. Neat! New SW Factoid.

gmjabreson
7 November 2005, 11:49 AM
when i posted this thread i never thought i would get such a good and interesting discussion, let alone more information.
I also didn't know that the "Bail" was a title or rank, thanks.

Ris
8 November 2005, 08:28 PM
While I have read speculation that "Bail" might be a title, it is actually a given name. See the Galactic Campaign Guide, Table 4-5: Human Male Names, p.114.

Tao
9 November 2005, 03:52 AM
This is from the Databank on starwars.com:

Bail Organa was first named in the original script and novelization of A New Hope. He was featured the Star Wars's National Public Radio Dramatization in 1981, in an episode entitled "Points of Origin." Bail is named Prestor in this source, suggesting that 'Bail' might be a title, a cue that the 1997 novel The Paradise Snare took when presenting that character.

I always try to back up my opinions with whatever facts are available, but theres not a lot on this subject, except for the two sources cited above. As for the Galactic Campaign Guide, while I respect the authors for the work they do, a lot of the information is somewhat watered down, so that it appeals to a wider spectrum of players. In that instance, it was likely easier to just throw it on the list, instead of having to explain why a seemingly prevalent name was left off. Either that, or they haven't read Paradise Snare ;).

There's also the possibility that it could be both, like "duke" or "rex". Both were originally titles denoting royalty and status, though in todays world they generally refer to a mutt. :D

Darth_Cassed
9 November 2005, 12:33 PM
Ah but as far as the RPG goes, any RPG material out there generally overrides any other source except for the movies. If you've got some information stated in the Incredible Cross-sections books, the information in the Starships book overrides that, as it is taylored to what we are doing for the sake of the game.

Or at least that's my take on how things should be chosen.

PsychoInfiltrator
9 November 2005, 05:03 PM
And here I thought that the radio stuff was at the same levle of canon as the Star wars Holliday Special, the Marvel Comics, and the Infinities and Tales Comics...silly me!

Tao
10 November 2005, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
And here I thought that the radio stuff was at the same levle of canon as the Star wars Holliday Special, the Marvel Comics, and the Infinities and Tales Comics...silly me! Well... nothing is quite on the same level of canon as the Holiday Special...

I was more impressed by Paradise Snare, however. That was an amazing book, and I'm liable to believe ever last sentance of it. I'm still of the persuasion that it is both a title and a name.

Darth_Cassed
10 November 2005, 04:38 AM
Well, I'm just saying RPG sources override most other sources in terms of the RPG.

Example: In the Incredible Cross-sections book for Attack of the Clones, it lists the Acclamator as having a 0.6x hyperdrive, and I believe it has a x2, x1 at best in the RPG stats. RPG takes precidence though, as it is pioneered specifically for the RPG.

gmjabreson
2 December 2005, 09:06 PM
I think that if it's in the sourcebooks then it is more reliable. After all the workers at Wizards and WEG had to work closely to LFL to get that data to us. Where as the others that wrote books didn't have such a tight bond. However on that subject, I am not saying anything bad about Mr. Timothy Zahn. After all he does play the RPG too, just in a more private setting.